Matt 24:34. "by no means"

[JW Insider]

On 10/4/2016 at 3:40 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

I mean, you have a two stage relay. Start point: 1914 CE on one end. Finish point: the "great tribulation" on the other end. The track between is the stream of time.

As it is impossible for one team of runners to span the distance from the start, 1914 CE, to the finish, the "great tribulation", there are two teams of "anointed" Christians. Starting the race, those who saw the year 1914 eventually meet up with those (born later) who will see the outbreak of the great tribulation. The baton is passed and the race completed by the second group.

The entire group are seen as the (anointed) generation of the last days in Jesus prophecy. Not really rocket science is it?

As already alluded to, I don't think we have anything like a "two stage relay." Assume that it is true that Jesus gave a prophecy about a certain "generation" that he addressed in Matthew 24, and assume that somehow this "generation" has two fulfillments, one on a generation he addressed in 33 CE, and one on a generation he addressed in 1914.

If we really could look to the original fulfillment to gain insight into the second fulfillment (which we say that we do) then we should look carefully at what that audience already knew about the language Jesus used. Jesus did not use the term generation to refer to the "family-stage" (i.e., where grandparents / parents / children / grandchildren refers to 4 different generations as in Mathew chapter 1). Jesus always used it to refer to the living contemporaries of the people he spoke with. In effect, the word generation is about the same as saying "you" [plural] in a way that we know he means all the people in the nation who should be listening to him at that time, not just the particular small group he is addressing at the moment.  Here is every instance from Matthew with some context. Note especially that a "Judgment Day" is in the immediate context

(Matthew 11:16-24) 16 “With whom will I compare this generation? It is like young children sitting in the marketplaces who call out to their playmates, 17 saying: ‘We played the flute for you, but you did not dance; we wailed, but you did not beat yourselves in grief.’ 18 Likewise, John came neither eating nor drinking, but people say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.” 20 Then he began to reproach the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place, for they did not repent: . . .  24 But I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom on Judgment Day than for you.”

(Matthew 12:39-45) 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet. 40 For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. 41 Men of Ninʹe·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at what Joʹnah preached. But look! something more than Joʹnah is here. 42 The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solʹo·mon. But look! something more than Solʹo·mon is here. . . . the final circumstances of that man become worse than the first. That is how it will be also with this wicked generation.”

(Matthew 16:1-4) 16 Here the Pharisees and Sadducees approached him, and to test him, they asked him to display to them a sign from heaven. 2 In reply he said to them: “When evening falls, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is fire-red,’ 3 and in the morning, ‘It will be wintry, rainy weather today, for the sky is fire-red but gloomy.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but the signs of the times you cannot interpret. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation keeps seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah.” With that he went away, leaving them behind.

(Matthew 23:34-39) . . .For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

(Matthew 24:29-34) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. 32 “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.

(Matthew 17:16-20) 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not cure him.” 17 In reply Jesus said: “O faithless and twisted generation, how long must I continue with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring him here to me.” 18 Then Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was cured from that hour. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said: “Why could we not expel it?” 20 He said to them: “Because of your little faith.. . .

 

On 10/21/2016 at 4:48 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Well, there was, of course, no sign for the "wicked and adulterous generation" (save the sign of Jonah). But that's not us is it? 

Note that the example from Matthew 17:16-20. I put it last because it is the only one without a direct reference to a Judgment Day in the context, but it is the disciples who trigger the expression that Jesus uses about a "faithless and twisted generation." Jesus even calls them "of little faith." Therefore, I wouldn't be too sure to claim that we know exactly who all the people were when Jesus referenced a "generation."

On 10/21/2016 at 4:48 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

This applies only to ANOINTED CHRISTIANS

Why? He wasn't even speaking to anointed Christians, was he? He was speaking to people who were still having trouble with the idea that they needed a sign, or needed to know "when." They weren't ready to live by faith, not by sight. The anointing was, in fact, the solution to the problem they had of thinking they were about to see the Kingdom of God in Israel.

(Acts 1:6-8) 6 So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

Back to the relay race.

Jesus used the expression "generation" to refer, in effect, to "you people and all your associates." I think that's pretty obvious. But it doesn't really even matter what other meanings we could attach to the term "generation" because Jesus already explained in context that he meant that the "end" is so close, that  "you and your associates who should be listening to me" will not all die out before some of you will actually see this true sign of the end in your own lifetime. Some will get fooled by signs that are not true signs of the end, so don't get misled. But you survive to the presence can lift your heads up and rejoice because when you finally see the true signs, your deliverance is near.

If there was a relay race hand-off, or transition, then it started right there in 33 C.E. Some of the living contemporaries would die off and therefore not see it in their lifetime. It was only 33 to 37 years away! If Jesus had come to earth and made this prophecy 50 years earlier, then it would have been nearly meaningless to tell a generation of living contemporaries that they would be able to lift their heads up and rejoice. Almost ALL of them would be dead, and it would have been fairly easy to watch the diminishing health of the 87-year old survivors and predict the time when the prophecy had to come true.

Clearly, Jesus did not intend for them to do that. So he said that it would come at a time when they did not think to be it. Yet this is exactly what the current Watch Tower publications are encouraging when they mention that the second group is getting on in years, and therefore we know from that fact that the time is close. We should know the time is close because it is close in our hearts, not because we were seeking a sign.

 

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the verse chosen is not a very good choice. Exodus 1:6

Now we differ here, as I think it is quite a good choice and was surprised it figures so little in discussion until now.

Anyway, for me, even if not limited to Joseph's brothers, we have a group of people, some born earlier, some born  later, but all at some point having shared space with Joseph whilst he lived. That is the common experience that unites them into one generation. Although Joseph had a birth and a death, there was no stated requirement for his contemporaries to witness those two events to be included as members of "that generation". All that was required was that they shared some time of their lives with Joseph in order to be included as a part of that generation. By necessity, any born AFTER the birth of Joseph would see their lives OVERLAP with any born before Joseph. However, all would be a part of Joseph's generation as they were contemporaries. No one dying before or being born after the death of Joseph would be included in his "generation" even if related.

Bringing this understanding to the events described by Jesus for the end of the 1st Century Jewish system of things, a similarity is pretty clear to me. The first Christians anointed in 33CE (which included the apostle John) were joined by others in the ensuing years, up until 70CE and the end of that (Jewish) system of things. Some not even born in 33CE could have accepted Christianity and been anointed in those interim years. The lives of those Christians experiencing their anointing after 33CE and up to 70CE, would OVERLAP with Christians anointed in 33CE (this includes Cornelius in 36CE). This way, they became contemporaries with the earlier group, and are appropriately  included as members of that "generation". As such, they were the generation that saw all the things fortold to occur in that period of time although individuals may not have experienced the full period. With the apostle John as a prominent example, that "generation" had "by no means pass[ed] away" before the fulfillment of Jesus words for that time. 

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(Matthew 16:28)

I can't see how Matt 16:28 relates to this topic.

However you have included references to Mark 13 and Luke 21.

I am avoiding the temptation to enter into a debate about the composite question at Matt. 24:3 and it's ommision as a factor in understanding the answer Jesus gave. Save to say, Jesus's answer addressed aspects of the disciples' question that they did not realise they were asking. These aspects reach down into the "last days" of the worldwide (not 1st Century Jewish) system of things, and this is reflected in the scope of the answer that Jesus gave as recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Jehovah's Witnesses understand the period since 1914CE until the present time to be the "last days" of a worldwide "system of things". They cite the events listed by Jesus in these passages of Scripture as having their fulfillment in the well-documented catalogue of catastrophic events, along with kingdom preaching, experienced world-wide in the period since 1914CE. Various debates on that subject are contained in a number of other threads on the forum so need no repetition here.

So, for me, the current "generation" of Matt.24:34 comprises a group of people, who all at some point have shared space with anointed Christians who were so when the Messianic action taken by Jesus Christ to expell Satan and his demons from the heavens in 1914CE took place. For those anointed after 1914CE, their later arrival on the scene necessitated that their lives would OVERLAP with members of that earlier group of anointed. However, as contemporaries, they are included in the "generation" that will see all the things Jesus prophesied, including the outbreak of the "great tribulation". They are the "generation" that "will by no means pass away" in our time.

It is unlikely (although theoretically still possible) that any of the first group of anointed are still on earth now. In order to be included in the second group, these individuals' lives as anointed must OVERLAP with the lives of members of the first group who witnessed 1914CE.  This excludes from the "generation" any Christians receiving their anointing after the last of the first group finish their earthly course and prevents a looping of the process.

I still maintain this to be a fairly simple concept, but I must say that my understanding has been considerably refined and improved by discussing on the forum.

This required an expansion in the understanding amongst Jehovah's Witnesses of what comprises the "generation" Jesus spoke of, as the previous understanding was obviously inadequate. 

 

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

two stage relay

To all really.

Please don't waste time overthinking my relay race illustration. You may have noted I have abandoned it now. I only wanted to illustrate the idea of an overlap, but I realise now that there are too many tempting red herrings in the concept of a relay race. (Christian race, obstacles, training, teams, trainers, runners, false starts....dear me!)

So really this is an example of illustration overkill because it 's too vivid and rich for the purpose I intended.  

[JW Insider]

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Anyway, for me, even if not limited to Joseph's brothers, we have a group of people, some born earlier, some born  later, but all at some point having shared space with Joseph whilst he lived.

The verse itself does not say explicitly that it means more than just the generation that included Joseph and his brothers, the "family-stage" version of generation --  and this is the way that Brother Splane uses it. I have thought that this use of the verse is "self-debunking" but at the very least I can give it the benefit of the doubt, because the context could still allow us to include the currently living contemporaries of subsequent "family-stage" generations. This allows us to legitimately expand on the the idea of the single family-stage version of generation, because it could imply that the "generation" could have included any of Joseph's nephews, and even grand-nephews who had already been born. If it does include that, it's a Biblical usage that gets a little closer to what Brother Splane is trying to present. It would seem to mix the "family-stage" definition and the "living contemporaries" definition.

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

we have a group of people, some born earlier, some born  later, but all at some point having shared space with Joseph whilst he lived. That is the common experience that unites them into one generation. Although Joseph had a birth and a death, there was no stated requirement for his contemporaries to witness those two events to be included as members of "that generation". All that was required was that they shared some time of their lives with Joseph in order to be included as a part of that generation. By necessity, any born AFTER the birth of Joseph would see their lives OVERLAP with any born before Joseph. However, all would be a part of Joseph's generation as they were contemporaries. No one dying before or being born after the death of Joseph would be included in his "generation" even if related.

I think that's playing a bit loose with the idea here, because the Bible text refers to a generation dying out. There is nothing in the Bible text that tells us that the term "generation" includes people dying out that hadn't even been born yet. And if it could include not just living contemporaries, but unborn future contemporaries, then who is to say that it means to only include those who would, at some point in the future, live as contemporaries of Joseph? Why not include those who might be born at some point in the future who would become contemporaries of a one or more of Joseph's brothers who might outlive him? And, of course,if you admit that it can include persons who had not yet been born, then why not allow it to include those who would be born at future time that overlapped some portion of the life of any of those nephews or grand-nephews who may have already been alive at the point in time when Moses considers that 70 of Jacob's descendants were alive at a certain point when Joseph was already in Egypt?

Even if this sounds ridiculous, it approximates the way the Watch Tower publications explain a "1914 version" of the phrase in Matthew 24:34. It says that there was a point in time when young and old persons readily discerned the sign in 1914. According to the Watchtower publications of the time period, some "saw the sign" but no one readily "discerned" it until years later, and some of them evidently may not have readily "discerned" it until 30-some years had passed by. The publications are currently only pretending that it was readily discerned, as we have already discussed in another thread. Recall that the Watchtower from October 1, 1930, p.291 was only one of several articles that gave this idea:

"The Revelation which God gave to Jesus Christ to show to his "servant" began to be disclosed particularly from 1914 forward, but none of God's children on earth had an understanding thereof for fifteen years or more thereafter. They did see the evidence of things coming to pass which mark a fulfilment of Revelation, but they did not discern the meaning thereof."

My main point is that we have no place in the Bible where such a definition of "generation" is required to make sense of the text.  I think that the explanation that the Watchtower Society has promoted is the most exceptional definition anyone has ever come up with. It appears in no Bible dictionaries, or Bible language dictionaries, as far as I know. It's just a new interpretation that has become necessary because the previous definition of generation has failed, even though that previous definition was more likely, and this new definition is unlikely.

Most importantly, even if the term generation really did have multiple possible meanings in various contexts in other parts of the Bible, we need to see what makes the best sense in the context of the way Jesus used it in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

The lives of those Christians experiencing their anointing after 33CE and up to 70CE, would OVERLAP with Christians anointed in 33CE (this includes Cornelius in 36CE). This way, they became contemporaries with the earlier group, and are appropriately  included as members of that "generation". 

The lives of those who Jesus spoke about as included in 'a generation that would not die out' would definitely overlap with persons who had not been born yet, or join with them later, just as they overlapped with persons who had died before Jesus ever mentioned this generation that would not pass away. That fact is not relevant. It doesn't make either the previously overlapping persons or the subsequent overlapping persons a part of the the generation that would not pass away.

The primary reason for this can easily be determined by meditating on the passage and asking if the Bible itself answers for us the question about "Why" Jesus said that "this generation would by no means pass away." How would the disciples have understood it? If they would have had a question about it, were those questions answered in the context of Jesus' words. Clearly they were answered. Jesus said that his reason was to assure them that something significant was going to happen within the lifetime of the people who heard him. Some might die that same day, that week, that year, and some in every year right up until 70 CE. But the generation would NOT die out until that significant thing happened. Some would get a special glimpse or preview of the Kingdom at the Transfiguration, but that generation would get a special glimpse of a Judgment Day exactly as predicted by Jesus. Because of the accuracy of the prophecy there could be no doubt that this was part of the proof of Jehovah's sovereignty and proof of the fact that "he who comes in Jehovah's name" was "blessed" as the King of that Kingdom that showed a glimpse of its power even to those who had rejected and killed him. 

(Matthew 23:34-39) 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

You asked why I had included the verse about the Transfiguration. It's because of this same theme, that the Kingdom was being made more real to those who were listening to Jesus. Some were blessed with a glimpse of the glorious power of that Kingdom while Jesus was with them on earth, and some would be terrified with a glimpse into the outworking of that Kingdom as Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled. Even those who might have been terrified, need not be, because Jesus gave a warning and instructions for those who would listen closely.

Note the parallels among some of these passages:

(Matthew 10:16-23) . . .“Look! I am sending you out as sheep among wolves; so prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard against men, for they will hand you over to local courts and they will scourge you in their synagogues. 18 And you will be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations. 19 However, when they hand you over, do not become anxious about how or what you are to speak, for what you are to speak will be given you in that hour; 20 for the ones speaking are not just you, but it is the spirit of your Father that speaks by you. 21 Further, brother will hand brother over to death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against parents and will have them put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.

Obviously, there is a sense in which the Son of man arrived in 70 CE. But notice, how this same context of Matt 10 gets partially repeated in Matthew 23 & 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21. Yet, they will still be in the process of fulfilling the directive "This good news of the kingdom will be preached" when the Son of man "arrives." In other words, some of them will still be alive at that time.

(Matthew 16:27, 28) 27 For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior. 28 Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

The verse was fulfilled for some of the disciples (in a glorious and positive way) who evidently would die prior to 70 C.E. But 70 was also a time when he would begin to repay some according to their behavior through the judgment upon the Jewish religious system. Note again the parallels to Matthew 23:1-39. (The entire chapter is useful here, because it's about how the entire Jewish religious system had corrupted the seat of Moses and used it to "shut up the Kingdom of the heavens.")

Because it's pretty clear that Jesus was promising the closeness of the significant event, that it would be specious for the meaning to be skewed by maneuvering it to mean that it might not come in their own lifetime, but possibly in the lifetime of people who hadn't been born yet. And of course, Jesus was not playing a trick on them. He really was referring to something that would occur within the lifetime of most of them. The fulfillment of "these things" would start in only 33 to 37 years into the future . . . well within the standard two meanings of generation, but most appropriately used with the meaning: "you and your currently living contemporaries will not die out before all these things occur." If the significant event predicted (the destruction of the temple) had not occurred within the lifetime of many of the people who heard Jesus warnings (before he was rejected by the same generation) then Jesus would have been considered a false prophet.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

unborn future contemporaries

I can't see how this would qualify one to be a part of the generation. Maybe I needed to word my final sentence more explicitly

"No one dying before the birth or being born after the death of Joseph could be included in his "generation" even if related."

Even if restricting generation membership to family, (perfectly reasonable), the qualification is that the individual must have been alive at the same time as Joseph. Not for his entire life, but at least a part of it. That then excludes unborn future contemporaries but allows for the OVERLAP in the lives of those born prior to and those born during Joseph's life. That indicates the Joseph's generation was an overlapping one. It's not playing loose, it's just observing a feature.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

some "saw the sign" but no one readily "discerned" it until years later

It is patently obvious that the full significance of the events of 1914CE were not published in the Watchtower generally by the anointed until years after the event. I don't think any of us could say for sure when the significance did start to be discerned. However, as discussed elswhere, I don't see this as an issue particularly.

I mean, I have a friend suffering from left-side paralysis. For some time my friend was treated (ineffectively) for a stroke. Then the medical authorities decided to look more carefully (MRI scan) and discovered...a brain tumour!!!. The earlier diagnosis had been completely wrong. However there was no change in the experience of my friend regardless of how the symptoms had been interpreted. My friend knew something was wrong all the time! They also knew that the treatment was not working and suspected an incorrect diagnosis. None of this changed the fact my friend was ill.

Without labouring the analogy further, the anointed experienced the reality of the events of 1914CE, but did not discern or explain the significance of them correctly. They certainly knew there was far more significance to those events than mere political developments, but more detail came later. The important things are that they were anointed and they were there! That makes them part of the "generation".

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The lives of those who Jesus spoke about as included in 'a generation that would not die out' would definitely overlap with persons who had not been born yet, or join with them later,

This is the significant point we obviously agree on. However, I do not think those who died earlier to Jesus prophecy and particularly to Pentecost 33CE, are included in this "generation". I also understand this generation to be limited to Jesus disciples who he was talking to at the time and any others contemporary with them. They were not a part of the "wicked and adulterous generation" to whom Jesus addressed other remarks.

I also believe that the fulfillment of this aspect of Jesus' prophecy on the Jewish system of things took on added significance as soon as the Christian congregation was founded at Pentecost 33CE because the events of that day, particularly Acts 2:5-11, line up with that feature Jesus pointed to at Matt 24:14. By the way, I cannot see a direct conection with the earlier transfiguration account.

I agree with the descriptions and application you provide in connection with the 1st century fulfillment of Jesus prophecy. I cannot see anything here to contradict the view that the Ist C anointed (overlapping) generation that saw the beginning of Jesus prophecy, particularly from Pentecost 33CE "by no means pass[ed] away" until the destruction of the Jewish system of things in 70CE. 

I suppose I should for clarity also point out that I do not believe the "overlapping generation" idea is something we have invented. It is merely an observation of a feature of any generation attached to a historical sequence. It is just something we had not previously noticed. It was there all the time. (Bit like my friend's tumour). 

[Anna]

In our human, earthly experience, everything has a beginning and an end. It would seem logical therefore that Jesus would not toy with the idea of bringing some abstract meaning of time into the equation. And indeed he didn’t as we have already confirmed; the end of Jerusalem DID indeed come within the lifetime of those people to whom he promised it would come, and he called that span of time (from when he told them, to when it happened) a generation. I don’t want to seem ignorant, but has there ever been an explanation as to why the generation (in the second fulfillment) cannot be of a similar length to the generation of the first fulfillment? (Besides of course the fact that it’s almost all gone, could be said passed).

Also when Jesus said people would be able to lift their heads up, because they would recognize the closeness to a specific end, and know their deliverance is close, and that they would come to see the end (obviously), could he have meant something different when applying it to the second fulfillment? Could the above be applied to ones who have already died? i.e. the first group?

edit: That's a rhetorical question, because obviously it couldn't.....But the first group DID lift their heads up knowing their deliverance was near, even though they died. But obviously when they were resurrected, that deliverance met it's fulfillment in their case. So it was true. But in this case we would have to disregard the statement that the generation would NOT pass away because it did...So hence I see the need to have to extend the generation with the overlapping explanation. Unless there was another explanation.....?

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

I don’t want to seem ignorant, but has there ever been an explanation as to why the generation (in the second fulfillment) cannot be of a similar length to the generation of the first fulfillment? (Besides of course the fact that it’s almost all gone, could be said passed).

Tempting, but no. 37 years would be too short. Remember, this stage in the proceedings is a crucial one anyway. 2Pet.3:9 has a particularly intense application at present.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

So hence I see the need to have to extend the generation with the overlapping explanation.

But just keep in mind that every generation attached to a historical sequence will of necessity have an overlap. Those witnesses born before the start of the event(s) will always overlap with those witnesses born after the start (and before the end), although they are all part of the same generation. This is a fact of life. We didn't make it up, we just didn't notice it's significance before.

 

[Anna]

19 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Tempting, but no. 37 years would be too short. Remember, this stage in the proceedings is a crucial one anyway. 2Pet.3:9 has a particularly intense application at present.

True. Forgot about that scripture.

20 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

But just keep in mind that every generation attached to a historical sequence will of necessity have an overlap. Those witnesses born before the start of the event(s) will always overlap with those witnesses born after the start (and before the end), although they are all part of the same generation. This is a fact of life. We didn't make it up, we just didn't notice it's significance before.

Also true, because people are dying and being born all the time. It's not as if this process stops for a time being just to allow a group of people of similar age to be encompassed. In any case, secondary Biblical applications always differ, (especially when it comes to time) to the first application.

I haven't finished going through all yours and JWInsider's posts yet though. Got stuff to do. But I am sure I will have some comments later, for what they are worth

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Please show the relevance! to the thread. If you are going to "delete" my post administrator, at least be equal since I disagree with JWinsiders implication of ALL true Witnesses have a problem with any topic here.

I worded that a bit too strongly. Sorry about that. It is still my opinion that ALL of us have a problem explaining it reasonably to others. I have never seen it explained reasonably yet, but again, this is my opinion. Others will probably find Brother Splane's presentation reasonable, and the explanation in the publications reasonable and, therefore,would also find Eoin's explanation reasonable.

I don't mean that it's unreasonable in the sense that there is absolutely no reason for it. I had already said that I don't have any problem understanding why we say it. The reason is pretty clear and the reason even accompanies the explanations in the publications and broadcasts. I'm just not convinced that it's a good reason.

For a while there I was actually adding phrases to a lot of my posts that I was expressing an opinion, and that even when quoting others, or quoting easily verifiable facts, that it's still my opinion that the specific support I quote is relevant. Since a lot of people use opinions to express ideas around here without qualifying opinions as opinions, it seemed unnecessarily pretentious. 

I've had my posts moved before too. They were not deleted, just put under a different topic heading. Posts should never be moved or deleted just because you or someone else disagrees with their implication. If that happened the ability to discuss anything would suffer.

[JW Insider]

@Allen Smith

I'll try to summarize your post and comment on relevant points. FWIW, I thought your post was very good and very relevant.

19 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

παρέλθῃ

First, thanks for providing some Biblical Greek references for the term translated "will/shall [not] pass away." They show that the NWT is translated correctly, when it says "this generation will not pass away." And the context, along with the extra emphasis (discussed earlier in this thread) makes it appropriate to add the phrase "by no means" so that the verse can read:

(Matthew 24:34) 34 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.

I don't believe anyone here had questioned the translation, and I don't think you intended to question it either. You can tell me, of course, if you thought that some of the other possible definitions that these resources provided were presented because you thought that they somehow showed that the NWT was insufficient. Otherwise, I think you are saying that we all agree on these points.

19 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

The Expositor's Bible commentary_ Matthew, Mark, Luke-Zondervan (1984)

I'm also not exactly sure why you quoted this reference. While it exactly supports what I have come to believe about the meaning of Matthew 24:34 in context, it is NOT what the Watch Tower publications have promoted. Again, you didn't say why you quoted this, but it happens to agree with what I have been saying, and it disagrees with the position of the WTS. Indirectly, it states that the position of the WTS is "highly artificial" and has made use of an interpretation that can only be made "with the greatest difficulty." It indicates that the meaning of "all these things" could only refer to things seen in first century generation of A.D. 30, "within his hearers' lifetime."  I agree with everything in that paragraph you quoted, and you evidently do not agree with it. Am I right? 

19 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

MATTHEW By Peter S. Ruckman / B.A., B.D., M.A., Th.M., Ph.D. 1970

This reference should also have been accompanied by a reason for posting it. It disagrees with the prior reference you quoted, but it also disagrees with the view promoted in the Watch Tower publications. First it shows how "'this generation never refers to Israel anywhere in the Bible," and the same would therefore be true of spiritual Israel, which is the position of the WTS. There is a portion of this argument that approaches views held by the the WTS:

"The unbelieving Jew who goes back to Palestine and sees the establishment of Israel as a nation (1948) will be in the generation that sees the Advent."

That was also the position of the WTS from the 1870's through about 1927-1930, based on idea that the "end of the Gentile Times" also referred to the Jews re-establishment in Palestine, which would happen just prior to (or just after) 1914. By the time this finally happened in 1948, the entire Zionist idea (promoted by both Russell and Rutherford) had already been dropped. Personally, I don't believe that the 1948 Zionist "fulfillment" is relevant to Matthew 24, and I think that the Watchtower has already made that case very well. I also have my doubts that you believe in the Zionist fulfillment, so it would have been a good idea for you to explain why you provided a reference that promotes this view.

You quoted that reference only up to the point where it says: "How long is a generation?" But you left off the rest of that paragraph from the source. I'll quote it for you:

How long is a generation? According to the standard set down in Gen 15v13, a generation is an even 100 years! According to Moses, in Ps 90, it is 70 years! According to the passage in Mat 1v17, it is about 42 years! By this system of figuring, a man BORN in 1948 would certainly live to SEE the Rapture & the Advent! The exact date CANNOT be fixed, since there is NO WAY to ascertain the reliability of the calendar since Pope Gregory fooled with it! At any rate, it is clear that the generation that sees the advents described in v14-28 will undoubtedly live to see the Advent of Jesus. This generation is described as the generation that is alive & sees the budding of the fig tree, the leaf - blossoming of National Israel! This date can be fixed with certainty – 1948 A.D.  So there ARE certain ‘signs’ we are to look for preceding the Rapture – read 1 Thes 5v1-7 + Luke 12v54-57.

This, was pretty much  the same way we (WTS) defined "generation" up until about 2009, at which point we had no choice but to extend the meaning, because "this generation," as we then defined it, had pretty much died out. The beliefs of the resource you quoted would not have to change until about 2048, at the latest.

Was there something you agreed with in either of these last two references you quoted? If not, was there a reason for quoting them?

[to be continued...Feel free to respond at any time, however. It might be a while before I continue.]

[Anna]

After reading both @Eoin Joyce and @JW Insider very good arguments, from both perspectives, I may be stating the obvious: In my opinion,  the only way one could make sense of the overlapping generation, is if one assumed that the anointed (both groups) living WITHIN the set period of time, is not dependent on group two actually seeing the START of the sign. Does Matthew 24 support this idea?

Could this be put in a nutshell. 

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

the only way one could make sense of the overlapping generation, is if one assumed that the anointed (both groups) living WITHIN the set period of time, is not dependent on group two actually seeing the START of the sign. Does Matthew 24 support this idea?

We don't need to assume it. It is a feature of all generations associated with a historical sequence. An important feature here is that the duration of the sequence of events described in Matt 24 is longer than the life span of one human at the time they occur. 

As for Matt 24 supporting the idea, it does not define the use of the word generation directly. It does not actually state something like "a generation attached to the events described here will have to extend longer than the lifetime of one man".

Instead, we need to 'reason from the Scriptures". It is clear that there is no Bible rule determining the length of a generation. Just thinking about Genesis 15:13-16 in comparison with  the context of other places where the word is used shows this. Or when you think how long people lived in earlier Bible times then obviously, the concept of a generation, if related to how long someone lives, is flexible.

The idea of a generation based on the Bro Splane's reasoning against the description of Joseph's generation at Exodus 1:6 works for me. It's not creating a new concept or anything. It just points out the fact that when a generation is associated with a historical sequence (in this case the life of Joseph), then members of that generation obviously overlap lives because people continue to be born within the parameter of time set by that sequence. The overlap occurs between the lives of 2 groups. Group 1.Those born before the event(s) referenced. Group 2. Those born after, but living at the same time as the first group. This is the case for every generation associated with a historical sequence. (I'm not forgetting that we limit the generation here to just to anointed Christians)

Whether one persons lifetime is long enough to span the duration of that sequence or not is immaterial. It is not the crucial criteria. 

Now, with regard to the duration of the period of time identified by Jesus in Matt. 24 as the "last days". If we have accepted (for various reasons which are the subject of other threads) that 1914CE commences that time period, with the 1st World War as a tangible evidence of that, then it is patently obvious that the period of time marking the "last days" exceeds the life span of humans at this time. (If humans at this time lived as long as Abraham, or even Job, did, this discussion might not be taking place).

But Jesus spoke of a generation associated with the historical sequence known as the "last days", a generation that, like all other generations before, would consist of 2 overlapping groups, a generation associated with a historical sequence of events that exceeds the life span experienced by persons at the time, but, nevertheless, a generation that will have "by no means pass[ed] away, when God's Kingdom crushes and puts an end to all other kingdoms.

So then, what you have stated about Group 2 not seeing the start of the sign is not an assumption. It is a common feature of all generations defined in this way. It's just that no one seems to have specifically pointed it out.

However, what is unique in this concept is the make up of those in the second group considered valid for inclusion in the generation. That is, Group1 consists of those alive to witness the start of the historical sequence, and Group 2, those born after the start but who are contemporary to that first group. Where the historical sequence exceeds the lifetime of any in the first group, then ONLY those overlapping with that first group are considered as part of that generation. Any coming on the scene later (ie overlapping with the 2nd group only), are excluded.

So, it is the limiting of those included in the second group that is the doctorine here, not the concept of the overlap of groups in a generation, which is a fact independent of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Some nutshell eh?