When Did Jesus Secure Full Kingdom Power?

[JW Insider]

Conversation started from this daily text:

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Let me take a big risk here and propose a "debate" position for anyone who might wish to play either Devil's advocate, Watchtower's advocate or Bible's advocate. 

I am suggesting that the Bible disagrees with the Watchtower on this particular point. So I'll play "Bible's advocate."

Any takers?

 

Quote

"Jesus did not immediately secure full Kingdom power when he got back to heaven. Instead, he “sat down at the right hand of God, from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” (Heb. 10:12, 13)"

Point 1: The Bible never actually says that Jesus did not immediately secure full Kingdom power when he got back to heaven.  Just because a king doesn't accomplish everything he finally plans to accomplish by the end of his very first year doesn't mean that he wasn't already a king in that first year.

Point 2: In fact, the Apostle Paul disagreed wholeheartedly with this idea, too. When Paul paraphrases Psalm 110 in 1 Corinthians 15:25, he doesn't say that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God waiting until he became king.

Paul replaces the words of Psalm 110:1 as follows:

(Psalm 110:1) “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

(1 Cor. 15:25) "For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet."

So we know that Paul believed that "sitting at God's right hand" was the equivalent of "ruling as king."

Therefore, Jesus did not wait until he secured full Kingdom power at a later date, he secured it immediately.

Point 3: The rest of the Bible provides evidence that Jesus received full kingly power at the time of his resurrection, not at some future time:

(Matthew 28:17, 18) 17 When they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted. 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

(Philippians 2:9, 10) 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground. . .

(1 Timothy 6:14, 15) . . .our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 17:14) 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings,. . .

(Revelation 1:5) 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”. . .

(Colossians 1:13) 13 He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son,

(Colossians 1:15, 16) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . . .

(Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet. . .

(Philippians 2:8-10) . . .death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground—

(2 Timothy 4:1) . . .I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

(Acts 17:7) . . .All these men act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus.”

(Acts 7:55, 56) 55 But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”

 

 

[The Librarian]

11 While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly.+ 12 So he said: “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land+ to secure kingly power for himself and to return. 13 Calling ten of his slaves, he gave them ten miʹnas* and told them, ‘Do business with these until I come.’+ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to become king over us.’

15 “When he eventually got back after having secured the kingly power,* he summoned the slaves to whom he had given the money,* in order to ascertain what they had gained by their business activity.+ 16 So the first one came forward and said, ‘Lord, your miʹna gained ten miʹnas.’+17 He said to him, ‘Well done, good slave! Because in a very small matter you have proved yourself faithful, hold authority over ten cities.’+ 18 Now the second came, saying, ‘Your miʹna, Lord, made five miʹnas.’+ 19 He said to this one as well, ‘You too be in charge of five cities.’ 20 But another one came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your miʹna that I kept hidden away in a cloth. 21 You see, I was in fear of you, because you are a harsh man; you take what you did not deposit, and you reap what you did not sow.’+ 22 He said to him, ‘By your own words I judge you, wicked slave. You knew, did you, that I am a harsh man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow?+ 23 So why did you not put my money* in a bank? Then on my coming, I would have collected it with interest.’

24 “With that he said to those standing by, ‘Take the miʹna from him and give it to the one who has the ten miʹnas.’+ 25 But they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten miʹnas!’— 26 ‘I say to you, to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.+ 27 Moreover, bring these enemies of mine here who did not want me to become king over them and execute them in front of me.’” - Luke 19

 

"to secure" implies a process. A period of time. 

 

36 As he moved along, they were spreading their outer garments on the road.+ 37 As soon as he got near the road down the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and to praise God with a loud voice because of all the powerful works they had seen, 38 saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s* name! Peace in heaven, and glory in the heights above!”+ 39 However, some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to him: “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.”+40 But in reply he said: “I tell you, if these remained silent, the stones would cry out.” - Luke 19

 

"AS the King" is the phrase used... not "as king"

 

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An often used phrase we heard 30 years ago was "King-designate" 

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This inspired psalm gave the Hebrews reason to regard the promised Messiah as the one in whom the office of priest and king would be combined. The apostle Paul, in the letter to the Hebrews, removed any doubt about the identity of the one foretold, speaking of “Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.”

 

Ps 110

Jehovah declared to my Lord:   

“Sit at my right hand+                    (10 days after Jesus' ascension on Pentecost 33 C.E)

Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”+ 

 2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:               (1914)

“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”+

 3 Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force.*    (1914 ...)

In splendid holiness, from the womb of the dawn,                               (Birth of a nation....)

You have your company of young men just like dewdrops.         

 4 Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind:*                   (29 B.C.E.)

“You are a priest forever+                                             

In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”+

 5 Jehovah will be at your right hand;+

He will crush kings on the day of his anger.+                                          (ARMAGEDDON)

 6 He will execute judgment against* the nations;+    

He will fill the land with dead bodies.+        

He will crush the leader* of a vast land.*                                           (SATAN in the abyss)

 7 He* will drink from the stream along the road.                                           (New World)

Therefore, he will hold his head high.                                            

 

So to @JW Insider Your proposed scenario would make verses 1,2,3, 4 all happen simultaneously?  

[JW Insider]

If I were the householder with this proposal as an objection and you were the Witness, then I guess you just offered the initial line of defense. Maybe two lines of defense.

COUNTERPOINT #1: I think the first line of defense is that "to secure a kingdom" implies a process.

COUNTERPOINT #2: The second line of defense is in the wording of the version of the "royal procession" found in Luke 19:38 says: “Blessed is the One coming as the King in Jehovah’s name!"

 

Response to COUNTERPOINT #1:

So let's take them one at a time. Does "to secure a kingdom" imply a process? Maybe. It doesn't say. If you secure your house it might be locking the door. If you secure a title or office, and you were already someone of royal lineage, then it may be because it was now time, and you merely accepted the title offered.

So yes, it may be a process. But how long does that process take? 3 days? 10 seconds? 40 days? The Watchtower says that it took 1881 years. (That's 1,881 years from 33 C.E. to 1914 C.E.)

At a minimum, it was the amount of time it took from the time Jesus died, was resurrected, and possibly counted only from his ascension 40 days after his resurrection. At any rate, according to the Scriptures quoted in the first post and several others, it was when he was raised to sit at the right hand of God. Paul says "sit at the right hand of God" is the equivalent of "rule as king." This is obvious, not just from the verses quoted but from the contexts of entire paragraphs in the Scriptures: I'm thinking of the speeches in Acts 2, the discussion in Hebrews 5-8 about Melchizedek "King of Righteousness" and "King of Peace," etc. Even the opening of Hebrews offers a view of the current royal power of Jesus Christ. 

Let's go ahead and add that to the list of passages to overcome. A close look at the context shows that it already answers the question about when Jesus "secured" the kingdom. It's the equivalent of being "appointed heir of all things" using similar language to that which Jesus used in the parable:

(Hebrews 1:2-2:14) 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. 5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” 7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. . . . 13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? 14 Are they not all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation? . . .  5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking. . . . 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone. . . . 14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil.

So, even if we accept that "securing" is a process -- and we have no real Scriptural or linguistic reason to do so -- then we still have to attempt to overcome the many Scriptures that state that Jesus was already the King, king of kings, sitting on a throne of royal power, with a kingly scepter, with all things already subjected to him, where all authority had already been granted to him in heaven and on earth, where Jehovah left nothing that is not subject to him.

But we have a bigger problem if we claim that when Jesus returns with royal power that this is a long period of time. In fact, the long passage that you quoted from Luke gives us the Scriptural view that Jesus returns to judge and appoint his slaves over his belongings. Even the parable of the "faithful and unfaithful slaves" in Matthew 24:45 which is actually quite similar, is no longer considered to be a viable parable about appointing the faithful slave in 1919 as the Watchtower once did. That appointment over all his belongings is still future, right?

Response to COUNTERPOINT #2

It's not very useful to point out that Luke's version uses the term "as the King" instead of "as King." I assume that the argument intended to compare the phrase "as the King" instead of saying "the King" so that the word "as" implies someone who is not yet fully King. This particular scene was repeated in all four of the gospel accounts, and I'd say each one of them actually points to something that's potentially a bit future. So the term King-designate is just fine for describing the situation during the processions to Jerusalem. But pay special attention to the final one in John, where the point was made specifically that it didn't fully make sense until Jesus was glorified.

 

Luke 19:37, 38) . . ., 38 saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s name!. . .

(Mark 11:9, 10) . . .Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! 10 Blessed is the coming Kingdom of our father David!. . .

(Matthew 21:5-9) . . .‘Look! Your king is coming to you, . . . Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! . . .

(John 12:13-16) . . .“Save, we pray you! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name, the King of Israel!” . . .  Look! Your king is coming, seated on a donkey’s colt.” 16 These things his disciples did not understand at first, but when Jesus was glorified, they recalled that these things were written about him and that they did these things to him.

It should be pretty clear, even from this set of Scriptures, that Jesus actually was the King-designate, until his glorification in 33 C.E.  So now we have the timing that makes sense in all of the other verses mentioned in the first post.

 

Thanks for engaging. Good practice!

(1 Peter 3:15) 15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

[The Librarian]

Typically I would draw parallels (use of type / antitype) (i.e. - seven times) to show a prophetic fulfillment.

I am withholding that line of reasoning due to our recent abandonment of type/antitype parallels. I remember we talked about them still being used when speaking of the Kingdom yet I would need to find this out for sure via that Annual Meeting talk somewhere in the archive. 

 

[JW Insider]

The Librarian I just noticed the new addition to your first response, beginning with the point about Melchizedek and the notes on Psalm 110, that will provide a couple more counterpoints to the initial proposition. (Now we are getting somewhere!)

I'll try to flesh out what your arguments might be, based on the words you highlighted in bold text, and the events marked in the margin, and your final question.

17 hours ago, The Librarian said:

This inspired psalm gave the Hebrews reason to regard the promised Messiah as the one in whom the office of priest and king would be combined. The apostle Paul, in the letter to the Hebrews, removed any doubt about the identity of the one foretold, speaking of “Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.”

You also quoted Psalm 110 in its entirety, with some commentary, applying different verses to different points and events. Before discussing the commentary and question, below, let's point out something that is "admitted" in your opening comments above about Jesus being the high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek. The book of Hebrews discusses the point that Jesus would not have been a priest according to the Law of Moses, yet there was a precedent prior to Moses under which Jesus would qualify to bless the nation promised to Abraham, and all the nations of the earth. Melchizedek, was not just a priest, but a king and priest simultaneously.

Will Jesus become such a priest who is king and priest simultaneously? Or could it be said that we already had such a priest who is king and priest simultaneoulsy? Obviously, Hebrews, written between 33 C.E. and 70 C.E. says we already have such a priest. Hebrews is our best commentary on the meaning of Psalm 110.

Recall, too, that the book was written to the Hebrews, and therefore they could not hear the name Melchizedek without hearing "KING of righteousness." M-L-CH unambiguously meant "king" and Z-D-K unambiguously meant "righteousness." ("Salem" like "shalom" means "peace")

I already quoted portions of the first two chapters of Hebrews which presents a powerful image of royalty, where Jesus is sitting on the throne of Majesty, with the scepter of his Kingdom. He already has angels as servants and ministers. The very words of the kingly appointment have already been stated on his behalf from Jehovah himself. In no particular order, I'll highlight some of these verses:

• (Hebrews 8:1) 8 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
• (Hebrews 7:26) 26 For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

• (Hebrews 7:14-17) 14 For it is clear that our Lord has descended from Judah [tribe of the KINGLY line], yet Moses said nothing about priests coming from that tribe. 15 And this becomes even clearer when another priest arises who is like Mel·chizʹe·dek [KING of righteousness], 16 who has become such, not by the legal requirement that depends on fleshly descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is said in witness of him: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek [KING of righteousness].”

• (Hebrews 6:20-7:2) . . .Jesus, who has become a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek forever. 7 For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham . . . First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.”

• (Hebrews 5:5) 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.”  [This was the "formula" for anointing kings in the Bible. see:

  (Psalm 2:6, 7)  6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.

• (Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

17 hours ago, The Librarian said:

Ps 110

Jehovah declared to my Lord:   

“Sit at my right hand+                    (10 days after Jesus' ascension on Pentecost 33 C.E)

Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”+ 

 2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:               (1914)

“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”+

 3 Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force.*    (1914 ...)

In splendid holiness, from the womb of the dawn,                               (Birth of a nation....)

You have your company of young men just like dewdrops.         

 4 Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind:*                   (29 B.C.E.)

“You are a priest forever+                                             

In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”+

 5 Jehovah will be at your right hand;+

He will crush kings on the day of his anger.+                                          (ARMAGEDDON)

 6 He will execute judgment against* the nations;+    

He will fill the land with dead bodies.+        

He will crush the leader* of a vast land.*                                           (SATAN in the abyss)

 7 He* will drink from the stream along the road.                                           (New World)

Therefore, he will hold his head high.        

Then you asked if it would be proposed that the events of vss. 1-4 happen at the same time.

17 hours ago, The Librarian said:

So to @JW Insider Your proposed scenario would make verses 1,2,3, 4 all happen simultaneously?  

Yes. Absolutely. All of these events must have happened just when the Bible says they happened. Jesus was appointed at the beginning of his ministry around 29 C.E., and was made a high priest and king according to the manner of Melchizedek, when he was raised to God's right hand.  

• "Sit at my right hand" was unquestionably when he was raised to heaven. You may have placed this closer to Pentecost, although the Watchtower usually has placed this at the time of Jesus' ascension.
• "Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet" has been understood as if Jesus was sitting and waiting inactively until 1914. Paul understood it differently, and the context of Hebrews and many other scriptures indicates this. Remember, of course, that a king can actually "sit" on a throne and be king, he doesn't have to "stand up" to be king. It is highly disrespectful to claim that someone who Jehovah has raised up to sit upon the throne of Majesty is not fully a king, or even to claim that he had waited inactively for 1,881 years. It is just as disrespectful to say that the time when he ended the times of the nations started only in 1914, at a time when more nations and more national groups, and more national rulers became more powerful than ever before. How does that reflect on Jesus as a "newly installed King" in 1914? How does it show respect for the same person who told us that the final judgment on the nations would come without warning, if we insert a doctrine that indiscreetly claims that there is now a specific generation of warning that started in 1914? Remember that Jesus, in this context, said not to follow anyone who says "the due time has approached," yet this is still a primary focus of our ministry. But I digress:
  • The Biblical way to understand the expression "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet" was already given by Paul when he says that this means that Jesus must "rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet." (1 Corinthians 15:25)
  • That's the same as saying that Jesus must "rule as king" in the midst of his enemies until all these enemies are subdued. In other words, Jesus has been ruling in the midst of his enemies since 33 C.E., while Satan is still the "god of this system of things," while death still rules, while famine and war and pestilence have continued through the centuries, and Jesus, in effect, rides on a white horse conquering right alongside them.
  • The evidence that this is the Biblical understanding is given in several verses that indicate that Jesus was already given all authority in heaven and on earth. So he can't really get more authority. Gaining a kingship 1,881 years later is therefore nonsensical. All things were made subject in terms of his authority. The fact that a long time period is involved is part of Jehovah's purpose to maximize the salvation offered, yet display his power and kingship for all time through his Son. All things were made subject, but from a human standpoint, we won't yet see all things in subjection until final action is taken. We see this my combining the ideas in a few different passages:
    • (1 Cor. 15:24) Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.

    • (1 Corinthians 15:26-28) 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

    • (Ephesians 1:20-23) 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

    • (Hebrews 2:7, 8) . . .you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.

    • (Hebrews 2:14, 15) . . .so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

•  Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

  • This was marked as an event tied to 1914. As already shown, the Bible indicates that the the scepter of his power had already been extended out of Zion. That Christians have gone on conquering under the scepter of Christ's power is a theme of dozens of Scriptures:

    • (Hebrews 1:8) ". . .and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness."

    • (Hebrews 12:22, 23) 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect,

    • (1 Peter 2:6-9) 6 For it says in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a chosen stone, a precious foundation cornerstone, and no one exercising faith in it will ever be disappointed.” 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers;. . . 9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.

• 3 "Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In splendid holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops."

  • This verse was tied to 1914 and the "birth of a nation" which has been tied more closely to 1919. However, the verses already quoted from 1 Peter 2, above, show that the "holy nation" already existed. Paul says the same in identifying Jerusalem "today" where that "today" was less than 20 years from 33 C.E. The idea in Matthew 28 is that Jesus is already a king with full authority who can "command" a company, a military force. And Jesus sets that time period from the time of this statement, in 33 C.E. when he was given "all authority" right up until the conclusion. (Technically this would mean only until 1914, per the Watchtower's definition of "until the synteleia," but the Watchtower makes an exception here, and considers the bulk of this work to start after the conclusion has begun.)
    • (Galatians 4:25, 26) . . .Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

    • (Matthew 28:17-20) 17 When they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted. 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

• 4 Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”

  • You tied this to 29 B.C.E. By that, I assume that you mean Jesus baptism in 29 C.E. This appears to be Scriptural, so I have no additional response on this point. This is the "anointing" of a special kind of King and "High Priest" simultaneously. The actual words used at the baptismal anointing, were the same as the words used to anoint a King. Taking the office of King or Priest, just as with David, was not simultaneous with the appointment that designated him. During Jesus ministry it was important that his disciples, at least, began to understand both these roles: the forgiveness of sins, and the Kingdom's power. It was a glimpse of things to come. The Kingdom was already in their midst, if they had faith to see it:

    • (Matthew 8:7-11) 7 He said to him: “When I get there, I will cure him.” 8 The army officer replied: “Sir, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard that, he was amazed and said to those following him: “I tell you the truth, with no one in Israel have I found so great a faith. 11 But I tell you that many from east and west will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens;

    • (Matthew 3:1, 2) . . .In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·deʹa, 2 saying: “Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”

    •  

      [And many more...]

Of course, we already saw from Hebrews that we already have a king-priest like Melchizedek since 33 C.E., so we don't need to repeat all that. The rest of the verses are not part of the current question, and I see no Biblical issues with those comments.

[The Librarian]

@JW Insider Just for clarification. Which Kingdom(s) are you referring to? 

Your new hypothesis would almost make the need for our typical distinction unnecessary since he would be "King" in every sense.

Your thoughts?

 

[JW Insider]

29 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

Just for clarification. Which Kingdom(s) are you referring to? 

Your new hypothesis would almost make the need for our typical distinction unnecessary since he would be "King" in every sense.

Your thoughts?

@The Librarian Just noticed these places on the site for such discussions. The "Kingdoms" we usually distinguish are just as you listed them in the link: What are the Kingdoms that Jesus Christ Rules Over?  That is:

• Messianic Kingdom
• Kingdom of Our God and of His Son
• Kingdom of the Son of His Love

In actuality there is no expression "Messianic Kingdom" in the Bible, but it's understood, and  there are several other variations of expressions about God and Christ's Kingdom(s).

As you probably noticed there was a new attempt to consistently capitalize the word "Kingdom" in the NWT, 2013 Edition. I don't know if you had one of the advance PDF's of the Revised NWT 2013, prior to October 2013, but it was slightly less consistent than it is now, so I assume that the current capitalization is complete and final. I can't tell for sure if it might change again, because due to the speed at which the proofreading groups were completing their assignments, there are still dozens of minor inconsistencies that I'm sure will change on the next printing.

I caught about 140 to 145 changes related to capitalization inconsistencies that I think will still be updated, but none of these is directly related to Kingdom. They are not significant, of course. One of these areas of inconsistencies might also shed some light on this question about the Kingdom. In this case, it's related to the words: "Ark," the "ark of the Testimony," the "ark of the covenant," the "Ark of Jehovah," and the "ark of Jehovah's covenant," etc., etc., etc. Look carefully at some of the times "ark" is capitalized as "Ark"

• (Exodus 25:10) 10 “They are to make an ark of acacia wood, two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide and a cubit and a half high.
• (Exodus 37:1) 37 Bezʹal·el then made the Ark of acacia wood. It was two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide and a cubit and a half high.
• (Exodus 25:16-22) 16 You will place in the Ark the Testimony that I will give you. . . . 21 You will put the cover on the Ark, and in the Ark you will place the Testimony that I will give you. 22 I will present myself to you there and speak with you from above the cover. From between the two cherubs that are on the ark of the Testimony, I will make known to you all that I will command you for the Israelites.
• (Numbers 10:33-35) 33 So they began marching from the mountain of Jehovah for a journey of three days, and the ark of Jehovah’s covenant traveled before them . . . 35 Whenever the Ark was moved.
• (Deuteronomy 10:2) 2 And I will write on the tablets the words that appeared on the first tablets, which you shattered, and you should place them in the ark.’
• (Deuteronomy 31:26) 26 “Take this book of the Law and place it at the side of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God. . .
• (Joshua 3:11-15) 11 Look! The ark of the covenant of the Lord of the whole earth is passing ahead of you into the Jordan. . . . the priests carrying the Ark of Jehovah, the Lord of the whole earth, . . . the priests carrying the ark of the covenant went ahead of the people. 15 As soon as the carriers of the Ark reached the Jordan . . .
• (1 Samuel 3:3) 3 The lamp of God had not yet been extinguished, and Samuel was lying in the temple of Jehovah, where the Ark of God was.

This particular "ark" (not Noah's) is found over 200 times, and capitalized about half the time. But if you search on it, you'll see a certain consistency to the patterns, with a few exceptions. But the real point is that if you go through all of them, you will find no less than 15 different phrases with the word "ark" in them where someone might wish to look for a minor distinction between their meanings. So it's clear that the choice of capitalization was fairly arbitrary and not based on something in the original Hebrew:

• The Ark
• The ark of the Testimony
• ark of Jehovah’s covenant
• the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God
• The ark of the covenant of the Lord of the whole earth
• the Ark of Jehovah, the Lord of the whole earth
• the Ark of Jehovah your God
• the ark of Jehovah’s covenant
• the ark of the covenant of the true God
• the Ark of God
• the ark of the covenant of Jehovah of armies
• the Ark of the true God.
• the Ark of the God of Israel
• the ark of the covenant of Jehovah the God of Israel
• the Ark of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah

Are any of these "arks" really any different from the others? There was a time when we might have expected a Gilead talk by Frederick W Franz that highlighted half-a-dozen different "ark types"  and the significance of the type(s) of wood, too, just like those articles we would get on the two, then the three different "keys of the kingdom." But I think it's safe to say, we will not get such an article about all these different types of "arks" unless Noah's ark is being distinguished.

So why did I belabor that point?

Because, now the NWT capitalizes all but one of the various references to the Kingdom (or Kingdoms) of either Jehovah or Jesus: 

• the Kingdom of God
• the Kingdom of the heavens
• the Kingdom
• the Kingdom of the Father (Mt 13:43)
• the Kingdom of Jesus' Father (Mt 26:29)
• the Kingdom of our father David (Mk 11:10)
• Jesus' Kingdom [my Kingdom]
• the Kingdom of the Christ and of God (Eph 5:5)
• the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Pet 1:9)
• the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ (Rev 11:15)

Currently there is only the following exception when referring to Christ's kingdom:

• the kingdom of his beloved Son (Col 1:13)

There is actually another exception, too, which is apparently because it refers to the anointed spirit beings who make up that kingdom:

• (Revelation 1:6) 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .
• (Revelation 5:10) . . .and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.. . .

So, the most curious of these exceptions is therefore Colossians 1:13. We have always used this particular kingdom, with its very distinctive name as a way to describe a kingdom very different from God's Kingdom, or the Messianic Kingdom. (It's Jesus' "lordship" as the head of the Christian congregation.) The distinctive name made it more believable that it was an exception to all the other Kingdoms, and this was produced through a translation choice that (awkwardly) called it: "The kingdom of the Son of his love." I was actually surprised at the NWT 2013 when it used a less distinctive title for this kingdom and changed it to simply, "The kingdom of his beloved Son."

Now, it no longer has such a special, distinctive ring to it. We can now see that it was never intended as a unique way to refer to a totally different kingdom. We know that Jehovah's beloved Son is Jesus. Therefore it just means "The kingdom of Jesus" or "Jesus' kingdom." And, of course, it was only an arbitrary choice to begin capitalizing all the other uses of "Kingdom." There is no linguistic reason, just as was also true of the word "Ark." So now we have to wonder why it's "the kingdom of Jesus" in Colossians, but "the Kingdom of Jesus" in 2 Peter.

It seems that the only reason for the choice is due to the belief that it's not the same kingdom. Of course, if Jesus was already King of Kings, then he was King over the congregation as well as having been given all authority over every other power and dominion and lordship, too. The verses about Jesus' kingship already listed in previous posts give evidence that there never was a reason to break up all these different Kingdoms into three or four Kingdoms, any more than there would have been a reason to break up the meanings of all those different expressions referring to the "ark of the covenant."

[John Houston]

I have a thought to throw into this discussion. What about the fact that the king cannot FULLY come into power with his full complement of corulers, correct? So would this also be true in this instance? Without the entire 144000 in heaven, will JESUS complete his conquest of earth, removing Satan. So when they are all in heavenly form, 144000 and the King, JESUS will be in full power to fulfill his commitment as the Messianic king of God's Kingdom, ushering in the welcomed new system of things.

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, John Houston said:

What about the fact that the king cannot FULLY come into power with his full complement of corulers, correct?

Like this point and also the picture of Jesus as the rider of the White Horse in Rev. 6:2 "And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest"

Haven't so far seen any conflict with the WT application of Heb 10:12-13 initiating this discussion. There is no doubt that Jesus was Jehovah's anointed king as soon as he returned to the heavens having completed his earthly mission. @JWInsider has already cited Phillipians 2:9 on this "For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name". But I am pretty sure that neither Dan 7:14 or 27 were fulfilled at that point.

I mean, let's face it, I am sure some believed that Cassius Clay was the heavyweight champion of the world on Feb 24 1964, but what took place on Feb 25 1964 altered the perspective entirely.