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Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης

Why won't they announce the reason for disfellowshipping or disassociation?

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Hi I would like to disassociate my self from Jehovah witnesses but I would like also my brothers and sisters to know the reason why. Is it scriptural to hide this information from the congregation? I am certain that some sisters who dislike me will find opportunity to gossip with lies behind my back and my ex brothers will see me like a monster when in reality I make one step closer to my creator by establishing a new and direct connection to him like he wants ... without human mediators.

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I looked at several of your posts and some of them appear to take outdated issues, or overblown issues, and treat them as if they are currently having a direct effect on people. I think Melinda Mills pointed out that you were making an issue out of a prior incorrect view on the exact definition of porneia. But this issue would usually only have been of a practical concern for a few months before the wrong idea was corrected. (Edited to add: the issue arising from an improper understanding had been there for many years, but I'm told that it was rarely invoked, and a big issue was only being made out this for a few months, and that it was the very raising of the issue that also helped raise concerns about changing the practice.) Similar issue with being disfellowshipped over transplanted organs. I had specifically asked a person who would have known about all the decisions about disfellowshipping over that issue, and he told me it only happened a couple of times. (There is a tendency to be lenient when a person is suffering and might die from a rejection anyway. Also there was a strong belief in those days that even if a blood transfusion was not necessary for an organ transplant, that you had to agree to the possibility of accepting one, which is still a serious offense.)

At any rate, what is the rush to disassociate? Can you not find love in the brotherhood? Do you personally have to think of humans as your "mediators"? I believe there is room for a lot more diversity of thought, as long as you can keep a clean conscience, and avoid causing divisions by insisting on a view that others find unacceptable. Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted. We are not here strictly for a set of doctrines, we are here to find opportunities to love and care for our friends, relatives, family, and extend that same love to those related to us in the faith (our spiritual brothers and sisters). 

 

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JW Insider I would appreciate a honest answer to my question: where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?


It is rude to transfer my question to a place deliberately named "Parking Lot for Controversial Posts" in order to degrade and hide my question from the public. This place (Parking Lot) could have a serious name like "Controversial questions".

As for my previous questions you are free to go and comment to each one of them, not here. If you want to make a point... I would like to make a point too. I cannot belong to a religion or organization, that put harsh unscriptural rules just for the fun of it and later to change this rules like nothing have happened! Yes some people have died because of this rules... and I am referring to the religious prohibit of organ transplants inside the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses, that you say " it only happened a couple of times". Even if one person died because of the shameful rules of the Governing Body.. the GB is guilty of murder. You say " Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted".I say I cannot be part of a religious circus that chanches opppinions just like the wind blows, full of hatred to their own members who regret their sins, come back for acceptance, and being treated with  disrespect and being kept disfellowshipped for a year or two according to the appetite of local elders and overseers. How do you think Jesus is feeling seeing his little shipp treated like this? of course this is a retorical question. I would preffer an answer to my initial question.

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Why you want this is your business, not ours. If any one will gossip then they are no better than you, really. Your beef was the same I had with Jehovah himself for the death of my father because the system had not come yet. I was so pissed. But why was I angry? My father erased his debt of sin by his death and will awaken at the hearing of Christ voice during the resurrection. Also why would I want him to extend his life here, suffering with cancer, wasting away in pain truly not living, when Jehovah has promised a life so much better. Think of what you are saying. What mediators? They are just guides, showing us that path Jesus told us to take that would lead to eternal life. I want to stay on it because in Jehovah's love I will be able to see both of my parents again.

 When Jesus choose the apostle's, they were not perfect, fussing and arguing most of the time. Peter was headstrong thinking he was all that, but when the stick hit the fire, he denied his Lord and Master 3 times, how do you feel he felt when he caught eye to eye contact with Jesus when that cock crowed?

 Those who have the responsibility the same as those apostle's then, have to watch over us, make mistakes do we grumble, point out those mistakes and cry foul wanting to leave? Leave where? Their mistakes points us to what better place? Judas betrayed Jesus, did the others leave due to his mistake? Peter denied Jesus, did the others deny him when Jesus himself forgave him and Peter went on to serve faithfully till his death?  And when the Gentiles became part of the congregation, there were many new changes, for Paul had to set standards to meeting arrangements. As we grow, diverse with different cultures and continue to love one another as a true brotherhood, we will find we will change. If God's Word is alive should not his organization be also, vibrant with ones different but the same in our worship of Jehovah? 

Would not want you to go based on what you are saying, but do not stay either. Make up your mind and heart, it is Jehovah we are serving, so should you. And it's in his love we want to be. That is the road that leads to life. Any other will not get you there. It's a tributary leading off into destruction. I know been there and back. I can said from first hand experience. So I call to you, as I have. Read your Bible, ask the questions, pray about it, humble yourself to Jehovah's way, not our own way. That's what Satan did, right? Be like Paul and reason from the scriptures. Most of the questions you have will go away, for you will have answered them before you speak them out loud! Have a good evening my friend!

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8 hours ago, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

JW Insider I would appreciate a honest answer to my question: where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?


It is rude to transfer my question to a place deliberately named "Parking Lot for Controversial Posts" in order to degrade and hide my question from the public. This place (Parking Lot) could have a serious name like "Controversial questions".

@Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης,

I do not know any specifics of your particular situation or the situation in your congregation. No matter what the case, Jehovah knows your heart, and no humans or organization actually holds the final word of judgment. What I can say is that I'm aware of why there was a time when we once announced the reasons for disfellowshipping or disassociation. Then it turned into "conduct unbecoming a Christian" or "so-and-so no longer wishes to be associated . . . " often with a related talk given within a week or so, designed to remind the congregation of the need to remain morally clean, and the specific worldly or immoral elements the congregation had shown vulnerability to were usually emphasized. 

It should be obvious why this has changed. We do not wish to embarrass the person over a specific wrong or reason that they may later wish the congregation had no specific knowledge about. Most persons disfellowshipped are somewhere in a process of repentance. The elders do not believe the process is ever perfect, but they especially do not want to create a situation where a person might regret having everyone else know what weaknesses they overcame. There are issues of fairness and justice to consider when a congregation may know all about one party in a wrongdoing but nothing about a second party to the same wrongdoing.

I don't think I need to spell out all the ways that one person may be hurt more deeply due to the unfairness of allowing a different level of information for two different persons where the wrongdoing may have been equal. The other side of that coin, is the case where two persons were involved in the same wrongdoing, but one person was much guiltier than the other, yet the announcement sounds pretty much the same for both. The best solution has appeared to be the minimization of all announcements, allowing persons to keep more privacy and dignity.

Perhaps in your case, you wish to "give a witness" about why you are choosing to disassociate. Because you have been a Witness, your motivation is understandable, but you are asking for an opportunity to explain yourself in ways that might be considered detrimental to the spiritual well-being of the congregation. The elders are there to take care of the spiritual interests of the whole congregation. Most persons do not join a Christian congregation to get a sermon from someone who disagrees with the teachings that they joined to hear more about. You don't go to a meeting to have your belief system torn down, but to be built up. If you feel you have important points to make, why not write a book, or write to elders, or branch personnel, or go on the Internet, so that the congregation in general will have a choice as to what kind of information they risk exposing themselves to.

 

 

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Is "knowing the reason" for being disfellowshipped or disassociated really that important to the public? Why not ask the person involved lest an announcement may violate his/her privacy?  Just wondering what is the true motive of this post? 

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On 3/18/2016 at 9:08 AM, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

 Just wondering what is the true motive of this post?

I was hoping to hear your opinions based on the scriptures...
In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.
In the Christian congregation the same.
Jehovah's witnesses are Christians or not?
Jehovah's witnesses follow the scriptures or not?

I want to know before I disassociate my self from JW.
the elders don't like my questions.
can you help?

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10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.
In the Christian congregation the same.

It is not possible to support these statements with fact.

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

Jehovah's witnesses are Christians or not?
Jehovah's witnesses follow the scriptures or not?

Yes to both. However, with regard to following scripture, in the spirit of Apollos. Acts 18:24-28.

On 3/17/2016 at 18:38, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

Where is the scriptural proof of a requirement to indiscriminately publicize the reason for disfellowshipping or dissasociation?

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

the elders don't like my questions.

Have your elders used 2Tim.2:23 or Titus 3:9 to support their dislike for your questions? Have they attempted to provide answers to them?. I suspect even if they have, you have not been satisfied, as your many posts in this forum seem to indicate.

Why not apply the principle in Ps.4:4? It's all about attitude really. (Compare Ph. 3:15, the principle, not the immediate subject matter).

I recommend the advice provided by JW Insider quoted below:

On 3/17/2016 at 16:48, JW Insider said:

At any rate, what is the rush to disassociate? Can you not find love in the brotherhood? Do you personally have to think of humans as your "mediators"? I believe there is room for a lot more diversity of thought, as long as you can keep a clean conscience, and avoid causing divisions by insisting on a view that others find unacceptable. Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted. We are not here strictly for a set of doctrines, we are here to find opportunities to love and care for our friends, relatives, family, and extend that same love to those related to us in the faith (our spiritual brothers and sisters).

I would also add that the work of preaching the good news of Jehovah's established kingdom in the hands of His anointed king, Christ Jesus, should be the main focus of our efforts at this time. I would add that to the list of activities in JW Insider's comment above.

For many honest-hearted ones, getting to know Jehovah and his son Jesus, learning about the ransom, the kingdom, the truth about life, death, sin, getting free from the deceptive domination of Satan in their lives, and coming into association with the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's people, is the best thing thing that could ever happen to them. And, if media reports are anything to go by, it appears that there are greater opportunities in your country to share the good news of the kingdom than many others of us have at this time.

I do hope you can resolve your difficulties, if not your questions.

Do you have this saying?

Ας μην καίμε τα χλωρά μαζί με τα ξερά. 

illustration.jpg

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1.The Elders in my area are old and uneducated. (but I feel they don't like disagreements anyway)
2. I found disturbing cases on the Internet and I feel same rules will be applied to me too (if you question you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy).
3.I feel that I don't have rights. of course Ι will never go to the room alone only with elders. I see in the scriptures that it is my Christian right to ask for a public trial. please note that I don't ask the same for other cases - only for my case (maybe child molesters want secrecy so they can make it again in other congregations).
 

 

 

public hearings Awake 1981 Jan 22 p.17.jpg

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3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

1.The Elders in my area are old and uneducated. (but I feel they don't like disagreements anyway)

All the more reason to apply the scriptures I suggested.

3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

2. I found disturbing cases on the Internet and I feel same rules will be applied to me too (if you question you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy).

You cannot find the true picture from anecdotal evidence.

4 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

3.I feel that I don't have rights. of course Ι will never go to the room alone only with elders. I see in the scriptures that it is my Christian right to ask for a public trial. please note that I don't ask the same for other cases - only for my case (maybe child molesters want secrecy so they can make it again in other congregations).

The Awake article is interesting but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. I am not sure it supports the idea that  " In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone."  (my italics). I would need more specific examples for that conclusion. The statements in the article are not supported by examples.

What scriptures give you the Christian right to a "public trial"? And, if permissible, may I ask, what have you done to require such a trial?

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On 3/22/2016 at 11:49 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

may I ask, what have you done to require such a trial?

I already told you... I ask many questions and some don't like this... and I know since the trials are in secret anything bad can happen to me even disfellowshipping for apostasy. Who will know the real facts behind closed doors?
I don't trust the elders or the organization.... And your answers make me even more suspicious.

in a previous question I gave you a fact and you all pretend you haven't saw.
" In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance".
So the Elders punish him unscripturally  for three years in advance and the Governing Body found it very wise to advertise it in the watchtower ! 
How can I trust after that the Elders or the Governing Body ??????????????

On 3/22/2016 at 11:51 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

Giannis: In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.

Eoin: It is not possible to support these statements with fact.

 

                     Well I gave you the quote from the Awake! magazine (Jan 22, 1981, p17) and you pretend you haven't read it: "there was no question about the trials being public"!
                    Also from the epistles of Paul and others we learn all the dirty secrets of brothers in the congregations. Note that the first Christians didn't have a Governing Body nor send their letters in secrecy. Everybody had the right to a fair public trial... Like all the servants of Jehovah in Israel before them .... otherwise Paul wouldn't have the opportunity to talk about something they didn't like when he came to the synagogues of Greece. But they herd him first and later they rejected him!
why I don't have the same right?
                  Hear me first and later judge me !
                  Do you have something to be afraid of?
                  Do you have something to be ashamed of?

 

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Giannis 

You sound frustrated, Maybe its the language that is insufficient.

Anyway, apologies if I misunderstand you due to that.

With regard to the latest points you raise.

Giannis: In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.

I find this statement too extreme. The Awake you quote is interesting, but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. 

Obviously, Israel was a sovereign state with a judiciary, as is the USA. So there are legitimate comparisons in their legal systems, the right to public trial being one of them. However that provision does not substantiate your statement. In fact, even today there are situations when the public is excluded from legal procedures.

But, as Paul made clear in Rom 13, currently "Caesar" or the state "bears the sword" and serves as Gods's minister for good or bad toward his servants. We are all relatively subject to Caesar's laws and, as far as secular matters are concerned, generally, public trial is still a provision of that system should we fall foul of the law or indeed be a victim of crime.

So you do have the right to a public trial today..in "Cesar's" courts.

However, the Christian congregation is a spiritual arrangement and actually is not constituted as a sovereign state in the way of ancient Israel or the modern USA.

Elders have a responsibility to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean, and also to keep Jehovah's name and the name of His Son clear of reproach. This will necessarily mean dealing with wrongdoers, making assessments regarding wrong conduct, taking action to clear out badness from the congregation, and helping repentant ones regain spiritual health. At times, this may include mediation between congregation members to maintain peace in the congregation. @JW Insider has adequately outlined reasons for confidentiality in an earlier post in this thread. 

Where the breaking of Cesar's law is a component of errant behaviour amongst congregation members, then victims are completely at liberty to invoke the provisions of that system (bearing in mind Paul's counsel at 1 Cor. 6:6-8). Indeed, there may well be a legal obligation to refer such matters to the one "that bears the sword".

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

you all pretend you haven't saw.
" In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance".

Is this the account you refer to?

To take a true-life illustration of recent months: A certain youth professed to be a Christian minister. Yet he was carrying on homosexual acts with professed friends of his. When he found it expedient to travel to another part of the country he missed his homosexual friends. So he wrote one of them threatening to expose him if he did not come to where he lived so that they could continue their homosexual relations. But it was not long before this young professed Christian made some overt acts that exposed him and today he is under a ban of at least three years from any Christian congregation of Jehovah’s people.
 

This article discussed the hardening power of a practice of sin and the account illustrates the lengths a person could go to and the consequence when following such a course. I can't see any reason why further explanation would be required here, other than saying that the reference is 46 years old. Hopefully, that person learned, albeit the hard way (1Cor.5:5, 13), and has since been restored to the congregation. 1 Cor 6:9-10.

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

why I don't have the same right?

I think @JW Insider has indicated above how you could go about making your grievances public. You seem to have already embarked on this course anyway.

I do hope you can resolve your issues without cutting yourself off.

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On 3/16/2018 at 2:34 PM, Matthew9969 said:

Sounds like this man is not sinning, just wants to worship God.

Was it that necessary to grave dig a 2016 thread when it is March 17, 2018, to be specific a thread posted March 25, 2016 (about 722 days), with a small comment? It would not have been much of an effort to simply contact the user via pm messaging: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/profile/5857-γιαννης-διαμαντιδης/

or wait until said user of this thread gives an update.

Don't let that happen again, for in doing so makes any comment without an update from the creator of the thread, obsolete and or irrelevant, especially if a person who didn't make this thread says something vague.

What is gravedigging?

Gravedigging is the term we use for reviving inactive threads the name is fitting, because you're basically just digging up things that are long gone.

Why is gravedigging so bad?

Why exactly shouldn't you gravedig? It's pretty simple: Reviving old threads clutters the forum. If everyone went ahead and posted on threads from a while ago, newer threads would struggle to appear from beneath the threads of old nonsense. If one person revives an old thread, other people end up posting on it too. Those members will continue to bump an old thread, advertising it to even more potential posters. Often, an inactive thread will contain outdated information on a particular topic. We want to make sure that you're getting all the updates you need, and so avoiding bringing up older threads is best.

How can I tell if I'm about to gravedig a thread?

Knowing when you might be about to gravedig a thread is important. There might even be times where you avoid posting on a thread because you're worried about gravedigging it when it's actually okay. The age cutoff, when a thread goes from being active to inactive, is currently two weeks If a thread is on the first page of a section, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging, regardless of the age cutoff. If a thread is not on the first page of a section but has not yet reached the age cutoff, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging. You may also post on guides/tutorials, regardless of activity, without being at risk of gravedigging as long as you're posting something constructive, and not something like "great guide" etc. Pinned threads and staff members are also immune from gravedigging. In a nutshell, you can post on any thread that was last active under two weeks ago, and you can also post on threads that were not active under two weeks ago as long as they're on the first page of a section.

This also goes for ignoring Search Bars, in some cases.

Source

    Hello guest!

Information on this can also be Goggle'd on the Internet regarding ALL forums known on the internet.

Remember this, please, for if this was elsewhere, the CSE Christian Community forums, you would have been in a world heavy criticism for pulling that off there.

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Was it that necessary to grave dig a 2016 thread when it is March 17, 2018, to be specific a thread posted March 25, 2016 (about 722 days), with a small comment? It would not have been much of an effort to simply contact the user via pm messaging: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/profile/5857-γιαννης-διαμαντιδης/

or wait until said user of this thread gives an update.

Don't let that happen again, for in doing so makes any comment without an update from the creator of the thread, obsolete and or irrelevant, especially if a person who didn't make this thread says something vague.

What is gravedigging?

Gravedigging is the term we use for reviving inactive threads the name is fitting, because you're basically just digging up things that are long gone.

Why is gravedigging so bad?

Why exactly shouldn't you gravedig? It's pretty simple: Reviving old threads clutters the forum. If everyone went ahead and posted on threads from a while ago, newer threads would struggle to appear from beneath the threads of old nonsense. If one person revives an old thread, other people end up posting on it too. Those members will continue to bump an old thread, advertising it to even more potential posters. Often, an inactive thread will contain outdated information on a particular topic. We want to make sure that you're getting all the updates you need, and so avoiding bringing up older threads is best.

How can I tell if I'm about to gravedig a thread?

Knowing when you might be about to gravedig a thread is important. There might even be times where you avoid posting on a thread because you're worried about gravedigging it when it's actually okay. The age cutoff, when a thread goes from being active to inactive, is currently two weeks If a thread is on the first page of a section, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging, regardless of the age cutoff. If a thread is not on the first page of a section but has not yet reached the age cutoff, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging. You may also post on guides/tutorials, regardless of activity, without being at risk of gravedigging as long as you're posting something constructive, and not something like "great guide" etc. Pinned threads and staff members are also immune from gravedigging. In a nutshell, you can post on any thread that was last active under two weeks ago, and you can also post on threads that were not active under two weeks ago as long as they're on the first page of a section.

This also goes for ignoring Search Bars, in some cases.

Source

    Hello guest!

Information on this can also be Goggle'd on the Internet regarding ALL forums known on the internet.

Remember this, please, for if this was elsewhere, the CSE Christian Community forums, you would have been in a world heavy criticism for pulling that off there.

I don't believe you are in a position to tell me what I may post on or may not post on. Darn internet free speech police.

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16 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

I don't believe you are in a position to tell me what I may post on or may not post on. Darn internet free speech police.

On the contrary, it is nothing to do with position - fact, for anyone is capable of calling out such things on forums of any kind, for if you are probably fairly new to the internet, people will response and or react to grave-digging a post and or a thread (necroposting) and will call it out and or remind the user (often it is people who are unaware and or newcomers to a forums who do such things and are often reminded and or called out for it), for me I am just a mild type of person who calls out to this type of thing, which should be a lucky case for you, compared to the violent ones that will spark flame wars on forums for any person bringing up or bumping an old thread, regardless of what it is - that being said all I am telling you is that what you have done is grave-dig/necroposting, for if this was your thread, it is understandable, it is called a thread/post bump (update), but seeing as the user who made this thread was inactive for more than 600+ days and other comments with the nearly the same span of time, the last comment coming from "Gone Away" a mere comment that does not add to the thread falls in that category of grave-digging or necroposting - therefore being entirely irrelevant and the thread will not get any sort of attention, whatsoever for what is said is done by the final commentor and or user of said thread, after all that is where such terms come from in regards to internet forums, but let it be a reminder, you are not the first.

Also I agree, freedom of Speech, but it is common sense to be heard by others on an active discussion than a dead one and or one that has already come to a strong conclusion - such as this one.

Grave-Digging and or Necroposting, in addition to calling people out about it is not "Internet Free Speech Police" lol, vastly different from each other by a very large margin, perhaps two margins, for the term you brought up basically does not equal  to what I have mentioned - the facts and information, found on the internet of course, automatically solidifies this - of which can be proven should one look up thread grave-digging and or necroposting compared to what you have mentioned, which seems to be an non-existent term and or not relating to anything in regards to forums and or forum function and users.

Just next time look at the date and the date of the end comment.

 

If you like bringing up dead comment sections and or threads, the only place to best do this, other than a forum(s) is YouTube, for there anything goes and you are bound to get a response from even a 6 year old closed discussion, should anyone see what you posted, not being blanked out by Goggle Algorithms in today's YouTube.

That being said, both of us can sit back and watch the already high probability of this thread going down into the pages as more active and recent threads are always updated with recent comments and discussion and or made by active users who still log on here, and this 2016 thread will return from which it came prior to the grave-digging done on your part, and it going down is already predicted - as this is 100% common with those who necropost such threads, the public irrelevancy, and said thread just going page by page as new ones are made - and my message will just be a reminder to others anyways, and they aren't the first.

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@Space Merchant @Space Merchant @Space Merchant don't know why your name has appeared 3 times or if it will disappear. However what I'm finding at the moment is that i cannot comment on the main thread I was commenting on. Maybe it's good that i can't comment as @TrueTomHarley is sounding off again. Still adding my name to it I see. Poor man just cannot resist it.........

I can see the wood from the trees Tom and can see the need for JW Org to be investigated in every country of this Earth. I say Earth as they say they are no part of the 'world'. However they soon use the worldly legal systems to do their dirty work. 

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7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe it's good that i can't comment as @TrueTomHarley is sounding off again. Still adding my name to it I see. Poor man just cannot resist it..

I am tempted to start a post with flagging you 60 times. It is not considered rude to flag people usually, especially when they have been a central figure of the conversation.

The specific reason I flagged you last time was to exclude you from a category of people that would wish to stifle the Bible's message. Had I not flagged you, I would have left the impression that I thought you were the worst of the lot.

It is out of consideration for you that I did it.

The other thread doesn't work for me, either. I don't know why. To my knowledge no one is specifically shut out without a warning or two first from @The Librarian Not too long ago I got into a endless battle with a certain pestilential fellow who I will not flag because if I never see him again it will still be too soon  - a 'jugganaut', even his chum callled him - about another subject entirely and the Librarian asked me privately to knock it off. 

She is somewhat fond of the bottle (the old hen) and does not always notice at first when conversations are going down the toilet. She really doesn't like conversations, anyway - her pupils are here to study and do homework. She may have closed down the entire thread because there are getting to be many such threads and she is absolutely anal about imposing order on things that are not neccesarily that way, combing through her card catalog and sniffing out duplicates long after all her colleagues have gone digital and use their spare time to have a life.  I don't know. Usually threads run longer than three pages, and if you are not @AllenSmith, who can be outragious, even though more often than not he strikes a blow for what is right, and has been tossed a number of times, you or anyone can continue to your heart's content. 

You must understand, John, that except for me, no Witness here is typical. That is not to say that any of them are bad, necessary, but they are not typical. The typical one will be more reserved as to participate in a slugfest such as this, knowing that Bethel recommends what Jesus recommended about opposers: "Let them be" at Matt 15.

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On 3/17/2016 at 2:38 PM, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

this is because @The Librarian is not running the organization. If she was, each disfellowshipping would be broken down and cataloged in a system that would make John Dewey envious, and like snowflakes, the same reason would not appear twice.

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@TrueTomHarley Tom if you flagged me for that reason then thank you. 

I think you said something like the people are only causing this upheaval to stop or slow down the ministry. I presume you mean those that are not genuine victims of abuse and those that are not interested in seeing prevention of future victims. 

Well i can see your point, there are always trouble makers in all walks of life. SM seems to think it will not hinder people from studying with JW's, and as far as i can see it has not, here in the UK, caused any ministry to stop. For my part I cannot understand how few people even know about the situation. Whether true or false or whatever, people here just don't seem to know or are not interested. Though I've seen video of other countries where meetings are being disrupted. To be honest I've had my say, and yes did get a bit heated up, for which I apologize. 

As you know there are lots of things i would like to see happen, and things I would like to see change. So I will probably just stay away from the meetings and keep watching to see what happens.   Each time you flag me I get an email so I look to see what you've written and sometimes reply. I will try to respond less :) .

Quote "You must understand, John, that except for me, no Witness here is typical. That is not to say that any of them are bad, necessary, but they are not typical. The typical one will be more reserved as to participate in a slugfest such as this, knowing that Bethel recommends what Jesus recommended about opposers: "Let them be" at Matt 15"

Um, I don't really understand your meaning of typical here. In my ex-congregation all people were totally different. Some i found I could get along with well and others i would rather just sit the other side of the hall thank you.... There were people that i would have considered to be my friends, but sadly no more. i can fully understand some people being upset at being totally shunned, especially if they left the Org of their own choice because of some bad thing happening to them... I see no scriptural evidence for such shunning in these cases, and I have been shunned since January.  However I think this would cause a difference of opinion between you and I so I'll leave it there. 

Now i will admit here that i was offered the choice of just becoming inactive, and that would have been far easier in the long run. But I saw it as just taking the convenient route and not feeling right to my conscience, hence i felt the need to leave. But i don't want  Jehovah's purpose to be slowed down or stopped. Not that it would anyway. And I'm now feeling it will be good when all this problem is over and finished. I think it will take until the end of this year, and i think it will get worse before it gets sorted. But next year, well hopefully it will be a much happier time for God's people. The scriptures say something like, it's good to suffer if it's for serving God properly. There is a scripture which starts of something like 'Hold your head high when.. ' and it's about being 'happy' when suffering for the sake of serving God well. Hence i see persecution as a relatively good thing when it's for the right purpose. 

Enough again, I get to burbling a bit. Have a good day, John 

 

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

For my part I cannot understand how few people even know about the situation. Whether true or false or whatever, people here just don't seem to know or are not interested.

I think it is because one calamity comes along and people become incensed, but then another one or two arises the very next day to distract them. They get overwhelmed and in many cases they turn everything off. This is part of what I meant by 'not seeing the forest for the trees.' I did not mean it in a patronizing way, but only that there are so many scandals people tend to not focus on any given one. Even if we narrow it down to child sexual abuse itself, there is so much of it everywhere that people's eyes start to glaze over. A top cop in one British town said he wished he didn't have to prosecute cases of child porn found on computers. It pained him to say it, he acknowledged, but there was so much of it his people could not possibly keep up and were thereby distracted from the more immediate cases of abuse. At the meeting last night we spoke of the 'pangs of distress' Jesus spoke about. Pangs of distress before childbirth are bad and they get worse and they get more frequent. I think that is what is happening today.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

To be honest I've had my say, and yes did get a bit heated up, for which I apologize. 

Who doesn't? I do. Everybody does. It is the nature of the internet to never let the other fellow have the last word, as we all should do more often. I am guilty of it myself. I am guilty of it now. :)

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now i will admit here that i was offered the choice of just becoming inactive, and that would have been far easier in the long run. But I saw it as just taking the convenient route and not feeling right to my conscience,

Okay. I respect this. Your family pays a high cost for this, however, so take that into consideration, as I'm sure you have.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Some i found I could get along with well and others i would rather just sit the other side of the hall thank you.

This is how "God works in mysterious ways," to hijack a phrase from religious leaders when their doctrines have painted them into corners they cannot escape from. Over time agape love (the Greek agape,, not the English word) which focuses on a object and does not let go until its purpose is realized, serves to bind you to these ones too, even if they are yo-yos. There is a report somewhere that one GB member upbraided another for behaving "like an idiot." I have no idea whether it is true or not, but, as I close my eyes, I can see it, for their personalities are quite different. They smoothe it over with love so as to function effectively.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 Each time you flag me I get an email so I look to see what you've written and sometimes reply. I will try to respond less :) .

If it helps - one participant jokingly complained a few times that I never 'like' anybody. The final time she said it, I went back into her comments and 'liked' everytime she so much as breathed. She asked me to knock it off before I crashed her system. :)

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Enough again, I get to burbling a bit. Have a good day, John 

You and me both, pal. @The Librarian is not wrong when she makes me sit in the corner with a dunce cap every now and then.

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2 hours ago, tromboneck said:

Whoever the bozo is that wants to quit...go ahead and do it loser. You are "already gone"

You have much stature, Trom, and I appreciate that, but I have learned not to say such things. Even when they are gone, there is no saying they might not come back. I don't like to make it personal.

Someone may say "you don't?" because I have pushed back hard at times, even 'slapping' some. But I try to never go personal, and I think proof that that can work is the conciliatory note from John. Now, he is gone for now, but it is not necessarily permanent, and we might have made it so by going after him personally.

 

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don't like to make it personal.

 When the urge hits you to make it personal, you write in the third person.  I guess that makes it less personal.  :)

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1 hour ago, tromboneck said:

TTR...this guy is playing you like a drum. He is not for real. You are quite pollyannish. (I mean that in the nicest kind of way)

I don't think so. Which guy do you mean?

Having said that, it really doesn't matter. If you leave a record of loyalty to Jehovah, slapping back hard at villainous reasonings, and even people when they make themselves synonomous with them, also not chit-chatting with determined enemies of the truth as though they were chums, yet not saying vile things yourself, and even showing some kindness and empathy wherever the situation might warrent it, I'm not sure how you can go wrong, even if the guy is phony.

There was someone here who said he was a brother coping with homosexual tendencies some time ago. He painted himself very distraught. I think he said he had contemplated suicide at one time. I spoke with him at some length, as did several others here. But I always thought he could be just putting us on. It doesn't matter. If you sketch a character convincingly enough, you provide good opportunity for dealing with such a character, whether you are real or not.

It's not like I feel I'm being Perry Mason here, you know. Nothing here is real, necessarily. Real or not, people provide a good opportunity to develope communication skills appropriate to both friend and foe.

If you mean John, I don't think I've been gullible. Why would you think I have been? But even if I have, it hardly matters. I certainly mess with people's minds enough when I determine they are up to no good. If I am to stay here I must have that liberty. If someone turns the tables on me now and again, why should I complain? But I don't think it of John. He struck me as genuine, though you never know.

 

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My personal opinion is, that if a person will not use their real name on a forum then they are not quite as genuine as they could be. That's just my opinion of course. As for me i have nothing to hide and I certainly do not use any forum / page / FB or any other means to 'wind people up' deliberately. Yes sometimes i can be a bit unfair or rude, for which, when i calm down i will apologise. But i' m totally upfront and try to be as  honest as possible. Concerning the JW Org and my personal experiences, there are things i would love to say here, but they are much too personal involving my direct family, so i have to hold back on many things... That does not help in some ways as i could use personal experience as perfect examples, but i will not sacrifice my family just for that reason.

As for @tromboneck which appears to mean Trombone Neck, and gives the impression that this person loves to stick their neck out, or, be very loud in their opinion. I've only read their last two comments and if that is their general attitude well so be it,  but it is not very upbuilding is it ? 

As for @TrueTomHarley he is kind enough to bear with me on many occasions and has been very helpful in this way. I think we have agreed to differ on many things but his opinion has been a great help to me.  Thank you Tom.

As for all this second person and third person stuff, all beyond me. The scriptures say let your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No and anything beyond this is a sin. So that is one reason i do not hide behind sudonims. In my opinion (I'm using this IMO a lot lately) it is best to be truthful about who i am. Then others can have their own opinions of me, but at least they will know I'm not hiding behind a make believe character. Have a good day everyone. (I have a vintage pram /buggy/ baby carriage, to build, so i'll go my way and build it). 

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There! You see, @tromboneck? I win.

I didn't know you were still around John. You'll note I did not flag you. Yes, the second and third person would be beyond you. I have a few alternate personas and I bring them in every now and then, mostly for comic relief, that I'm not sure anyone appreciates other than me. But I need that outlet. I am playing here. If I actually thought I was patiently reasoning wiht "apostates" - as though thinking that the elders struck out but I know how to convince them - well - no way. That would be hugely presumptuous and not too obedient. But if I can make my own world, I can get around it. And I get to hone my writing abiltiy, which these days, is my sole gig.

That is not to say that when I interract with persons here that I am not being genuine. I am. But with some characters, it doesn't matter if they are real or not. If the persona sketched is realistic, it is just like the "phony" householder in a service meeting demonstration at the Kingdom Hall. It is an opportunity to improve reasoning abiltiy. Even beyond that, efforts are not wasted. Someone may come along later or be reading at present whose circumstances fit or are close enough to the one I am interracting with, that they are being addressed, even if I don't know of them.

As for John, he did something I have never seen anyone do here. He went from calling me a tool of the devil to offering me a heartfelt thanks. I'm not (overly) naive. I know he did not "come around." But I offered counsel intended to benefit him and he picked up on the spirit of it, if not the advice itself. I hope things work out for he and his family. People never yield on the internet, in any field, not just religion, and he did in a substantial way. Good enough I appreciate it. 

The only people that give up is some among US, who say 'you know the master IS delaying, so I'm going to beat my fellow slaves who misled me' or 'Actually Demas has a good point about the present system of things - I do kind of miss it - and here is an argument that gives me cover to follow his course.' These persons too, I hope to influence for the good in some manner.

 

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And here I am criticizing Matthew previously for bringing back a dead thread that has met its resolve more than 750+ days ago, but it would seem it has been succeeded by the other thread spilling over to this one thus making the present day comments unrelated to the main topic itself by a huge margin.

Well this tends to be expected from necro-posting, ah well.

As for the secondary topic, pertaining to what I explain to Matthew about forum rules, if you get blocked to a topic without notice it is refereed to as a shadow block (referred to as a Shadow Ban as well as stealth banning, ghost banning), when you can't post at all with out being notified about when and why this happens - but every forum and or community has a different phrase for it, but it is what it is.

@JOHN BUTLER Not everyone tends to use their real name on the internet, even if they did, out of the bunch there is a common person that stalks so and so on the internet in order to steal information and or account, or in the mindset of silly persons nowadays, they will troll said use to no means end.

Other then that, I had assume that a resolve has been met in the other thread, but if one were to continue on about said topic, there was literally an identical thread regarding the same topic - instead of Nicole, the author is John.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

As for the secondary topic, pertaining to what I explain to Matthew about forum rules, if you get blocked to a topic without notice it is refereed to as a shadow block (referred to as a Shadow Ban as well as stealth banning, ghost banning), when you can't post at all with out being notified about when and why this happens - but every forum and or community has a different phrase for it, but it is what it is.

 

Who is this masked one so learned in the ways of science and internet?

I half expect that one day he will take off his mask and I will hear: "Truetom, (or JB or AS or anyone active on this thread) I am your father!"

My upcoming book on persecution in Russia is a week or two away. My next one will be entitled: "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Unitarians But Were Afraid to Ask"

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I really don't know much about Unitarians except that @Space Merchant does not seem like a typical one. But then again, maybe there are no typical ones and they are like ice crystals - no two are the same. He sure knows a lot of stuff. I sure am glad he hangs around. He sure supplied some good info.

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I really don't know much about Unitarians except that @Space Merchant does not seem like a typical one. But then again, maybe there are no typical ones and they are like ice crystals - no two are the same. He sure knows a lot of stuff. I sure am glad he hangs around. He sure supplied some good info.

Not all Unitarians are the same,and ironically, we are separate from each other for there is basically different denominations within the Unitarian faith. Other then that majority of us who know our bibles are not fans of the Trinity Doctrine and we believe that God is one and true, and his chosen Christ, the Son, the man named Jesus, is the one of whom he sent, the one of whom he has exalted, we respect others who are on the same path as us and do not try to butcher the scriptures as the Trinitarians and Gnostic do as well as others who try to make God into something that he is not.

Other then that, I know plenty, as well as the views of others, and as some already know, I am not a fan of uninspired scripture added to the King James, Christians who are dishonesty and or oblivious to what is true, those who believe God is a 3 in 1, etc.

But yeah, not all of us Unitarians are the same.

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4 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I'm starting to get the impression they don't think Jesus had a pre-human existence?  But I'm afraid to ask that and  other things, yet am kyrioser and kyrioser about.

Depends on which Unitarian is which. There are some who do not believe Jesus pre-existed, and there are some who do - it is no red pill, blue pill situation.

3 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Yep I surely do agree with that.  'Cept bein a Jw an thereby amongstest the most lowliest of humankind and prey to them unfortunate folkways ov the lowly'n'smallminded, natcherly I would try to 'draw a bead on'im' so ta speak, get him classified as tew his 'nominals' as regard beliefs, an then stereotype him in a most prejudice fashin, an all'a'that, jess lak you'd expeck!

    Hello guest!

Now accordin'ta this'un hyere^ he's a-callin the pre-human existence believers as 'arians' so I reckon we liable to have th'SPLC  down awn air hides nexx!  Itz no rest fur th'wicked an rednecked, that I know!  thx

Prey? Your typing has started to break throughout your sentence.

With that last comment, there is a huge difference in an Arian and a Semi-Arian, as well as a Subornationist, last I recall, I refuted 2 individuals here regarding Arian based worship, for instance, showing total religious worship and servitude to the Son and not the Father, things of that nature, a minor thing makes the difference and since there is already a thread with what I said, I do not feel the need to repeat myself.

Lastly, you just posted a mere pdf, not realizing how many Unitarian groups even exist, which one are you talking about? I can tell you right there the majority is Universal Unitarianism and they are not the type to agree with the rest of the tribe (other Unitarians).

 

anyways, if I may add, I recommend getting a new keyboard if that is the cause of your questionable typing, if not, your current may be needing of a good cleansing - but if you are joking around, I remain unfazed.

That being said, some of us are basically Non-Trinitarians, which as as simple as it gets.

 

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My goodness this is all tooooo much for a Sunday morning.  Surely it's simple enough  :-

Almighty God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Whether you wish to call Him Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehovah or some other name.

Jesus Christ was formally The Word as a spirit person in heaven before he was transferred to Mary's womb as an 'embryo' / foetus to be born as a perfect human.

The holy spirit is God's 'active force' / useable power, which he uses to get jobs done. 

And sin must therefore be passed on through men not women, otherwise Jesus would have inherited the sin from Mary. She was a virgin of course but would have inherited sin from her parents.

Good morning all :)  

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4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I can tell you right there the majority is Universal Unitarianism and they are not the type to agree with the rest of the tribe (other Unitarians).

 

Okay. What little I know of Unitarians is confined to UU, and I know little about them.

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

But yeah, not all of us Unitarians are the same.

Okay again. I am a little sorry that I posted my "next" book title. It is no more than the sort of good-natured ribbing that I would do to my closest friends, and I hope it is not percieved as any sort  "one-uppence." I also hope it doesn't overshadow the valuable perspective you're offered for the subject at hand, if it is really the subject at hand, since as you said it did hijack another thread.

 

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Having said that, what is the internet term for this:

22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have a few alternate personas and I bring them in every now and then, mostly for comic relief, that I'm not sure anyone appreciates other than me.

 

Or this?

On 3/23/2018 at 10:05 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

I certainly mess with people's minds enough when I determine they are up to no good.

 

Or even this:

22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If I actually thought I was patiently reasoning wiht "apostates" - [which by no stretch of the imagination do I include SM]  as though thinking that the elders struck out but I know how to convince them - well - no way. That would be hugely presumptuous and not too obedient. But if I can make my own world, I can get around it. And I get to hone my writing abiltiy, which these days, is my sole gig.

 

:)

 

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On 3/24/2018 at 7:45 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

I have a few alternate personas and I bring them in every now and then, mostly for comic relief, that I'm not sure anyone appreciates other than me.

 

I take it back. I do know a certain @Nana Fofana who probably appreciates it and veers down that same nebulous path herself. 

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8 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Every Christian denomination honestly believes there in the right path. It “all” boils down to interpretation.

 

The ONLY true path is exact understanding of scripture. There you will find the true context and intent of Gods words, especially the ones enabled by Christ. Theology has come a long way from the early personal acclaim of fear and no hope for the wicked.

 

Unfortunately, you have many here that REFUSE to understand the OPERATIONAL structure that Christ laid out for his servants to follow. THAT INCLUDES LEADERS AMONG THE FOE!

 

However, the ONLY father that should be chosen, close is, our heavenly father. That includes obedience to those he has entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity. The anointed are an extension of the apostles.

 

And yet, some make outlandish comparisons to gather public Input for research to sell their books. On other forums, I call them enablers and hypocrites. A good bible researcher works to honor and glory, God, NOT themselves. That’s why I haven't found a GOOD historical researcher of the Watchtower that doesn’t end up putting their own delusional spin on their works. Hopefully, someday, a true historical account about the Watchtower will emerge.

 

Agreed, you'd be surprised on how some Unitarians are not a fan of other Unitarians who stick to scripture, as well as an onslaught from Trinity believers, KJV-onlyist, mainstream and dishonest Christians, New Agers, people who believe they follow Christ but truly do not, etc. The other day I had to deal with a guy who claims to be Christian who stated that Jesus Christ is not the promised seed and or prophet, and the funny thing is he can't nor has he ever used scripture, even when I gave him proof from the bible, this guy was ready to go nuts and trying to claim I was wrong - but yeah, there are Christians who claim to be, but will incite infighting, falsehood and use conspiracy and or believe in conspiracy and all that jazz.

That being said, those who are in the right by understanding and applying scripture are True Christians, as well as following Jesus' examples no matter what, in addition to having to quell those who pushing out a false doctrine. But as of late, mainstream Christians are on a massive decline, especially in the UK and the EU, ironically, they do know what they are doing wrong - the answer is quite evident, and more and more people are now knowing how false fake or blind Christians are.

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@AllenSmith Every Christian denomination honestly believes there in the right path. It “all” boils down to interpretation.

I think that is complete rubbish. How in WW2 could Catholics and others of other so called christian faiths believe it was right to go to war against each other and to kill each other ? How could they believe it is right to get deeply involved with politics, when Jesus cleary said 'My kingdom is no part of this world ? How can they pretend that people, or people's souls go to heaven or hell when God's word clearly states that 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all' ? How can they teach a trinity when Jesus said 'My father is greater than I am' 

No, all the false christian faiths know they are false, but it's just big business, power and control.....

Quote :  That includes obedience to those he has entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity. The anointed are an extension of the apostles.

Are now here we have a different story...... Firstly we need to be sure of whom he has 'entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity'.

Secondly, we need to know who the anointed are.

Thirdly, we need to know who has given authority to the Governing Body to say that only they, 8 men, out of hundreds anointed, are the special chosen ones to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave'.  

It's no good being one sided about it all. Yes we all know there has to be an Earthly organisation, but for you to just say that 'The anointed are an extension of the apostles', does not prove who the anointed are. So it's back to square one. 

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Every Christian denomination honestly believes there in the right path. It “all” boils down to interpretation.

I think that is complete rubbish. How in WW2 could Catholics and others of other so called christian faiths believe it was right to go to war against each other and to kill each other ? How could they believe it is right to get deeply involved with politics, when Jesus cleary said 'My kingdom is no part of this world ? How can they pretend that people, or people's souls go to heaven or hell when God's word clearly states that 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all' ? How can they teach a trinity when Jesus said 'My father is greater than I am' 

It isn't rubbish. If you've been around the block a few times as some may have, in my case the numerous debates I have seen as well as in person ones will say the same thing, hence better to be close to what is true than far from it.

As for the war, I agree with you, for in the past (now even) Catholics, Christians and Muslims have been going at it back in ancient times, mainly Christians and Muslims, with the Christians being front and center alongside the Catholics. Some have no other choice but to fight, others were pretty much persuaded to fight as they were being threaten.

As for today, there is a large amount of Christians who are for politics and war while another group is against it and will not partake, some Christians however, feel that it is their duty to defend for it is the only choice - then comes the question: would a Christian take a life of another Christian, who is also pushed to or persuaded to defend his or her country from outside forces, who also have Christians on their side?

An example would be the Seventh Day Adventist, for they are more likely the type of Christians, like some of the mainstream ones, to go at it with others.

All in all, we are not to be the type of people to take part in these things, I have already read in depth about what happen to the Christians in Syria and Christians who were for that madness, as with other things, should be very ashamed of themselves.

This is an example of what Christian Nationalist who are in support of also taking lives via cold blooded murder thinking it is worth it and for the greater good.

 

On the other side of the spectrum, there are Christians who are against such things and like always, they are attacked, ridiculed and bashed for it. We are not suppose to take arms, go overseas to kill others, especially if it is innocence getting in the way of gunfire.In addition, because of the action of allies, some Christians, mainly in the Middle East, were forced, having no other choice, to break their faith in order to defend themselves because of the damage their so called allies have caused in the country.

All in all, it is a tough world for a real Christian, you will be branded as a man or a woman not for his or her country for not going to war or helping out in it, you will be called a fanatic for believing in God, you will be called a false prophet and a cultist for not believing in the Trinity, if you are a race other than white you will be told that the bible is not for you because you are not the same color and or race as them, you will be prey to politics and government, all things of that nature.

Another thing is Christians who are for war and politics do not know the damage they have caused and or they are unaware of what following such things contribute to, Libya, Syria, Jerusalem, they are fools to think what was done there was a just thing to do.

In the end, Christians who live by scripture will always be targeted, and it will get progressively worse as the days go by for there is something big in the works that should not be ignored and should make one very vigilant of what is taking place and what is to take place.

It is times like this we need to be very careful and watchful of things.

 

 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

No, all the false christian faiths know they are false, but it's just big business, power and control.....

Quote :  That includes obedience to those he has entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity. The anointed are an extension of the apostles.

Are now here we have a different story...... Firstly we need to be sure of whom he has 'entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity'.

Secondly, we need to know who the anointed are.

Thirdly, we need to know who has given authority to the Governing Body to say that only they, 8 men, out of hundreds anointed, are the special chosen ones to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave'.  

It's no good being one sided about it all. Yes we all know there has to be an Earthly organisation, but for you to just say that 'The anointed are an extension of the apostles', does not prove who the anointed are. So it's back to square one. 

True, for the blind tends to lead the blind and have monetary gain that does not contribute to anything regarding God, the Great Commission, etc. As for obedience, those entrusted to lead tend to be Shepherd, and only those who are true to their role are to guide people by means of scripture - and who is chosen and who these people are is between God and them, for God is capable of anointing and putting those in place to be as guides while others assume God has place them to lead when they in turn teach a false doctrine.

Perhaps because they are among the 8 out of the hundreds who are still out there for such persons of such a position is between them and God, so the who part is already obvious - for the chosen one and or anointed can be seen by their faith and works, despite being imperfect human beings.

We know this by reading, Romans 8:13-17, John. 1:9-13, James. 1:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:17, etc. verses that cross-reference to the ones mention

For those who are chosen is only known by their works and faith and by Holy Spirit upon them, of how they are chosen, it is between them and God the Father.

That being said, what should raise question is how many are alive still, and how many have deceased and been rewarded position of priesthood - but the majority of concern for many Christians who are not blind, is how many are alive for even in the end time tribulations only few of the chosen ones are to remain, and 144,000 isn't a big number, so anything goes between now and however among of days, months, years, etc left.

As I was told at a younger age, end times and tribulation will happen suddenly, I use to have dreams of what it would be like, what would take place, how the people would react, how violent people can get when things start to break and fall apart as if the world shut down, for at the time I thought of it taking place when I was still a boy, and then Harmageddon where everything concludes.

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5 hours ago, tromboneck said:

I meant no harm

Not to worry. No offense taken.

5 hours ago, tromboneck said:

I realize you are a writer hence your large amountof time spent on this forum.

About half of the upcoming book on Russian persecution was originally written on this forum. Since few reasons for opposition were presented at any court hearings, and the m.o. was mostly to provide quick legal cover for decisions already made, I have given the reasons, and their defence, in the second portion of the book. These include such things as cult accusations, brainwashing, shunning, and the white-hot topic (which did not figure in to Russian action) of pedophilia accusations.

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@AllenSmith So why didn't the Governing Body obey the law of the land, and hand over the documents asked for in the USA ?

It seems that the Org handed over similar documents in Australia and in the UK. So it seems there is a division in the Org's thinking and actions here. 

Surely handing over the documents would not have gone against Jehovah God's laws and principles. 

The next point being, and i don't know why we are dragging all this up again as we will not agree on it, but, are you saying that all those victims Earthwide are lying when they say they were told by the elders not to report it to the Police ? And when they say they were made to face the abusers ? And when they say they were disfellowshipped and shunned / abandoned if they continued to complain when nothing was done about it ?  

And your misuse of the two Matthew scriptures is sickening. People hating the Org because it is pure and clean would be wonderful wouldn't it ? BUT, people are now hating the Org for it's disgusting deeds. There is such a big difference, and the terrible misuse of scripture makes it worse. 

Quote ;  'Before 2008, The Courts generally cited with the Watchtower in many things, including child abuse'.... Is that a clever way of saying they did deals behind closed doors so that people outside didn't know how bad the situation was. I'd call that a cover up. 

And in your last paragraph you are playing that same old record. Please get it into your head, the JW Org is supposed to be NO PART OF THIS WORLD. It does not matter what any one else is doing. And those courts are there because Jehovah God wants them to be there at this time. AND Jehovah wants his people to obey those courts unless they go against God's laws and principles. 

But of course,  I mustn't forget, the Governing Body and the Elders are allowed to tell lies, they call it spiritual warfare.  But if a member of the congregation tells lies that is called Sin.  

 

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    Hello guest!

So is all this lies ? Yes we know the media likes hype and yes it pays their wages, but that is not the point. Is all this lies ? That what matters. 

Because if even half of this is true, then i can understand why people would not trust the Org. It would give people the right to hate in fact. Hating something wicked is not a bad thing and pedophilia is wicked. When people are emotionally upset they tend to generalise and will include all Witnesses in their hate.  

More to the point, and I've said this many times before, I'm concerned for the Brothers and Sisters on the ministry, as it may be dangerous out there.  They may expect persecution for preaching righteous things about God, but if they don't know about this 'problem' and I can assure you many of them do not know, then they will not be ready to face the situation. I honestly think all congregations should include something in it's Thursday evening meeting, just one talk to prepare people for the coming trouble. 

 

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@AllenSmith So you are saying that the court was fining the Org $4,000 per day for not giving something they did not have. 

So you then are saying the court were deliberately fining them $4,000 for nothing, just to get their money. 

Um, yet I thought it was common knowledge that the GB had been compiling Child Abuse accusation documents since 1997. True or false ?  

As for it affecting other religions, that's not important. Obeying Jehovah is what is important. Confessional privilege = dishonesty. To withhold information is going against Jehovah, but then back to what I've already said. The GB say it's ok for them to tell lies or withhold info' as they call it 'spiritual warfare'. 

You seem to be doing what the GB are doing, hiding behind laws which are not in line with Jehovah's instructions through Jesus Christ.

So to be a good JW it seems you need to be a liar and be deceitful. But you proved that with your misuse of the Matthew scriptures.

Do you see what is happening to what is supposed to be the TRUTH ? God is being so insulted here. The scriptures are being misused regularly. OH dear, Jesus' words, I want mercy not sacrifice. But the Org shows no mercy.  

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So why didn't the Governing Body obey the law of the land, and hand over the documents asked for in the USA ?

It seems that the Org handed over similar documents in Australia and in the UK. So it seems there is a division in the Org's thinking and actions here. 

Um, yet I thought it was common knowledge that the GB had been compiling Child Abuse accusation documents since 1997. True or false ?  

Well the thing is religious law, and just like all religions they not only have their own set of rules, but are subjected to religious law and secular law depending on where they live. Now if said law of the land will somehow hinder religious law, the only time civil disobedience is applied as we can see in Acts 5:27-29, as well as Acts 5:40-42. But is is believed they had handed over some documents, if I am not mistaken, but they will take issue should the law of the land pressure them to change their rules that sit under religious law, there is a line that some Christians will not cross for it would break following Scripture - break Nazareth Vow they made with God. This was already address in the other thread.

Since 1997 prior to, before and then after?

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for it affecting other religions, that's not important. Obeying Jehovah is what is important. Confessional privilege = dishonesty. To withhold information is going against Jehovah, but then back to what I've already said. The GB say it's ok for them to tell lies or withhold info' as they call it 'spiritual warfare'. 

Actually it is important for all other groups and institutions also have children among them as well as obeying God. Again, Civil Disobedience, read upon the women of the bible and the account of David and Jonathan. For if it were not for Civil Disobedience, not only such persons would lose their faith, but would have been stoned to death and or executed, especially in Rehab's case for the King's men showed up to her doorstep, and it was problem tough for her to defend those spies.

I have already address that too, spiritual warfare is a real and serious thing, if you are forgetting what was said, read what was addressed:

 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to be doing what the GB are doing, hiding behind laws which are not in line with Jehovah's instructions through Jesus Christ.

The thing is, what is by law of God and the laws of which was written in Moses day to now still applies present day, even though Christians are under the New Covenant.What is written cannot be broken - for God's law is above the law of men and should men do anything to change, alter or prohibit God's law, Christians will adhere to Civil Disobedience just as Rehab, Jael, Paul and others have in order to prevent such from happening - Spiritual Warfare.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So to be a good JW it seems you need to be a liar and be deceitful. But you proved that with your misuse of the Matthew scriptures.

Read the women of the bible and read up on how Jonathan protected David, as well as what Paul and Peter had said. Spiritual Warfare and Civil Disobedience applies to Christians also. Yes, they have to obey the laws of the land, but at the same time there is a line that they will not and cannot cross for there is a biblical reason, as to what is said previously.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you see what is happening to what is supposed to be the TRUTH ? God is being so insulted here. The scriptures are being misused regularly. OH dear, Jesus' words, I want mercy not sacrifice. But the Org shows no mercy.  

How is Scripture being misused, for if was, an example would have been provided. A Restorationist is a Christian (

    Hello guest!
) who follow scripture to its core, its primitive roots, literally, even in modern day and age and onward, only few among them would go far and beyond than others in terms of scripture, hence why the Jehovah's Witnesses are seen as the face of Non-Trinitarianism because literally going by the book - which is the bible, in addition to them being the main targets of mainstreamers and opponents to this day. Anyone who is in this position would not break God's law or change it for anyone, for in doing so, that angers God even more, and no one wants God's anger blazing upon them.

Romans 13:1- Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Acts 5:29 -  But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

That being said, all Christians are obligated to adhere to the laws of the land and do so accordingly, there is no question about that, and should they have to, they can attempt to do things to the best of their ability to follow and take word of such laws and the people behind them, but again I will say, if the laws acquire said groups to change any religious laws, expect Civil Disobedience, for what angers God more is a man changing His word to fit the views of other men. As I recall, majority of those behind the law hates the bible also and cherry picks it if they have to, so if anyone is bible strict, they will try to do something in an attempt to break Christians, hence the reality of what mainstream Christianity is today, those that believe that the Son is the Father, for not only the blind leading the blind, but they break and change scripture in order to be part of the world's culture, ideology, their view over God's view, etc.

Lastly also, half of these things have been address in the other topic, there is not really a need to repeat what was responded to.

I'd also like to add this bit of information:

Quote

A Guardian investigation heard from 41 people who claimed they were victims of child sexual abuse and alleged a culture of cover-ups and lies, with senior members of the organisation, known as elders, discouraging victims from talking to the police.

A further 48 people said they experienced other forms of abuse, including physical violence when they were children, and 35 claimed they witnessed or heard about others who were victims of child grooming and abuse.

The Guardian was told that members of the community were taught to avoid interaction with outside authorities. It was also claimed that, according to rules set by the group, for child sexual abuse to be taken seriously there must be at least two witnesses to it. If that happened or a perpetrator admitted abuse, a judicial committee would be called and the case investigated.

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So what we know are there is a number who claim sexual abuse and has alleged there is a cover-up, for no one knows if that is true or not as well as the church leaders being said to discourage contacting the police.

Some have suffered from violent abuse, physical, and others have claimed to be witnesses of it, and some, surprisingly, brought up child grooming and abuse, when in the UK that is rarely done by any religious group besides those in the political chain and refugees with ill intent who are in the UK.

The next one is evident, the act of shunning and or ignoring people, for anyone who is excommunicated from the group are to not interact with members of the church, but at the same time, what was not mentioned is the fact that those excommunicated can be counseled still by church leaders, I believe the JWs call this shepherd calls or something like that whereas they send brothers and or leaders to speak with the excommunicated individual, as for the family, it is up to them on how they interact with so and so, especially if so and so is not a fan of God - it is not as crazy as the He'rem whereas you have to be cut out from the community as in kicked out not only from the church, but the community itself.

Again, I read up on the whole two-witness thing, but they have seem to blow the whole rule of it out of proportion - for not only ARC addressed a better clarification of what it is, so has other sources.

I wish them good faith that they deal with child abusers, but more than likely they would not attempt to kill off a religion just because - for the UK is known for allowing refugees to commit child grooming, but no one seems to be attempting to stop so and so who are for these things, as with the case of a religious social experiment done to prove this fact a couple weeks ago.

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1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Because people like you, and critics of the Watchtower within, don’t understand procedures in the laws of the land. And until you do? You will realize what setting precedence means. If you want things clear cut, why didn’t the ARC accept Bro? Jackson’s recommendation of making ALL CLAIMS mandatory?

 

But, I’ll explain it for the 19 time. It affects the outcome for other religions, especially those that hold the confessional privilege.

 

If you did understand, you would notice the difference between New York laws versus California laws.

 

Now! At what point did YOU decide, the Watchtower has what that biased San Diego Superior Court Judge wants? That the California Appellate Court found that lower court in error?

 

Once again, I’ll tell you the same thing I have told everyone here, let true lawyers handle these legal matters. This is NOT an issue for flunkies and wannabes!  My previous citation for argument has been from Secular Authority and their OWN laws! So let's NOT veer off topic and LEARN the laws of the land if your that passionate, without injecting false claims. Now that's rubbish!

 

Another thing is today's society seems to be very open and accepts pedophilia, child grooming and marriage and all that sort of things to the point it is now legal for a young person in the US to be forced to marry their rapist - laws made by men of which many, many people oppose. It is good to be against such things for they are indeed bad, but the reality is people do not go for the individuals, they go for a whole group, and such will pose as a problem, smart people tend to deal with such the smart way and not condemn an entire group, an example, the police, for the actions of a few, for if one police officer shoots and kills an child, execution style in her sleep, only this police officer should be dealt with, not the entire force for that district. The same thing applies for any person being the cause of violence, murder, rape, child abuse, etc. But apparently, people nowadays are not going about things the right way compared to the few who do, those who know the laws of the land.

And yes, the laws vary from state to state on how some issues are handled and or dealt with, examples like sentencing and or the death penalty, but even with that in mind, not many people tend to be aware of what these laws are, in addition, not every American even knows even about the Constitution of United States of America, of which is the bread and butter of the land - for if anyone paid attention to the March for your lives event, majority of the individuals do not know what this is and even though their cause is just, it can prove far more damage to what will happen in the future. In short, they'll ignore it and expect things to go good as time progress, which is evidently wrong, but those who are aware tends to think otherwise.

 

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Putting some final touches on the Pedophilia chapter, I managed to replace something bland with something more specific, resulting in this:

"It is similar today with the sexual abuse of children. Present protective policy has been extraordinarily long in coming. In 1987, Cleveland social workers and pediatricians removed over 100 children from their families suspected of sexual abuse. Public outcry was such, fueled by media alleging ‘overzealous’ and ‘intrusive’ agency overreach, that most were promptly returned, despite genuine evidence of abuse. Lucy Delap, writing for History and Policy, credits ‘feminist campaigners’ with making the protection of children a priorty, and states “clear guidelines for best practice were not established until the 1990s.”"

From:   

    Hello guest!

It does not change the specifics here. But it does add context. Since "clear guidelines for best practice were not established until the 1990s” it seems one can only go so far in the criticism of any agency operating during that time. As late as 1987, public opinion was firmly against "breaking up families'" for sexual abuse allegations, even where creditable. Furthermore, "where evidence of sexual assault emerged, the reaction of welfare workers was to limit harm, often by removing a child from an abusive situation. Reporting of abuse and securing convictions was a secondary concern."
 

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@TrueTomHarley So are you making excuses for Child Abuse in the org then?  

I've noticed that most of my questions do not get answered on here. People come back to the same old excuses of 'it's happening everywhere'. 

Your book paragraph reminds me of the Org's 'policy' on smoking. They knew it was wrong in the late 1800's but didn't make it policy until 1970. And Christmas, they knew it was wrong. but didn't stop it until 1926 ish. Great policies, only do it when it's convenient. Seems to be the same now with Child Abuse 'policies'. 

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"Will the greater world really condemn the ones who prevented child sexual abuse ten times better than anyone else, but failed to prevent it completely, over allegations that they neglected to report instances to the authorities who oversaw a record ten times worse?

It makes no sense to me, and I cannot escape the suspicion that the overall intent is to thwart the preaching of the good news, for that is plainly the effect. How can it not be the intent? This is not to say that everyone so involved, or even most, is deliberately pursuing this agenda, for the flashpoint is not imaginary and it is easy to get caught up in a cause.

But as in the Russian ban itself where allegations of child sexual abuse played absolutely no role, there are entities desperate to stop the spread of Jesus’ message."

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@TrueTomHarley Tom it seems impossible to get through to you. Who cares what the 'greater world' thinks ? Jehovah does not care surely about the opinions of the greater word. 

And we get back to this point of the 'ten times better'. Let me give you an example. VW cars and now BMW also it seems, told lies about the amount of pollution their cars push out. BUT they would have given figures for how much pollution the cars pushed out, however the figures were lies. Now take that to the JW Org. The Governing Body / legal dept' / Organisation, would have given figures by the amount of Child Abuse cases it deemed to be 'real' and may have completely tossed out thousands of cases it deemed to be not worthy of actually making  a case out of. IF, the Org was using the 'two witness rule' then maybe thousands of cases were tossed out, because as it's been made clear before there was never two witnesses to sex abuse. And add to this, the fear of many congregation members to come forward, because of shame or not wanting to be disfellowshipped, then the numbers could easily treble.... As you know, in politics, figures are deliberately altered, so why should the GB be so different. As I've said before they call it 'spiritual warfare' to tell lies.

The problem is Earthwide and they seem to have hundreds, if not thousands of Victims willing to testify.  Will you say all of there victims are lying ? Will you say they all just want to stop the preaching work ?  Even if only half are telling the truth that is still much too many to have suffered this way... Will you silence all of them just so that the preaching work can continue ?  If so, then you will invite more people into an organisation that allows pedophiles the right to roam free and to abuse more children. 

Russia. A totally different story. Nothing to do with Child Abuse as far as i know. And yes to be persecuted for the sake of righteousness is a good thing. Jesus said it would happen. However Child Abuse is not righteous, so it is not persecution of the same type. It is demanding that the situation be made open to protect others from a similar fate.

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55 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

BUT they would have given figures for how much pollution the cars pushed out, however the figures were lies. Now take that to the JW Org.

Take it to anyone. You have decided that Witness figures are lies. That can be said of anyone's figures. You just don't like them. 

It actually cannot be said of any religious organization's figures because none kept any records. That is where you ought to direct your rage if your concern is primarily the safety of children. What - the Lutherans would have us believe there has never been a case of abuse among them? Drag their butts before the authorities and grill them!

55 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

the Org was using the 'two witness rule'

This is completely irrelevent. The figures reported and investigated are those of allegations, without regard for whether there were witnesses or not.

It may be that God's human organization should be condemned for being human. If that is your position, say it. Ten times the prevention record of anyone else is not adequate for you? You expect perfection? Say it. 

Say 'I will not abide by any earthly organization unless its human leadership is perfect.'

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@TrueTomHarley you seem to have contradicted yourself. If no one kept records then how could the JW Org's records be ten times better. That becomes ten times better than nothing. Ten times better than no records at all. 

Quote 'the Lutherans would have us believe there has never been a case of abuse among them? Drag their butts before the authorities and grill them!'......  Well the JW Org wanted to pretend there was no Child Abuse within the Org obviously, because they told every member not to report it to the police or any outside authority. the Elders were not allowed to mention if there was a pedophile within it's congregation. If congregation members hadn't started to report it then no one would have known would they. The Watchtower mags may have talked about abuse, but it didn't tell people that the abuse was inside the Org did it ? 

As for the Witness figures being lies, well the investigations in many countries are only just beginning so we have no idea yet what the figures are. This could take another five years to show true figures. 

Quote, 'This is completely irrelevent. The figures reported and investigated are those of allegations, without regard for whether there were witnesses or not.'      Are but only if those 'allegations' were taken seriously. Otherwise the conversations could have been conveniently forgotten. Do you forget that i was threatened with being disfellowshipped on the grounds of slander ? I know personally what an investigation is like. It's a one sided, decision made, farce. Elders sticking together like glue. Because as you keep on telling me, they are only MEN. They make mistakes, yes, but they also act deliberately against Jehovah's will and against scriptural advice.

Tom, this has been proven to be true. Unless as I've said you call all victims liers. 

Anyway Romans 8 v 38 & 39 38. For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers 39  nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul's words are so true. Even the GB or JW org will not keep me from God's love. If Jehovah God sees goodness in me then he will upbuild me through Jesus Christ, either within or outside the JW Org. 

 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If no one kept records then how could the JW Org's records be ten times better. That becomes ten times better than nothing.

Come on, John! 

Not only have you not read the ARC info that you make such heated claims about, but you also haven't read my prior posts that explain it in detail.

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@TrueTomHarley ARC, Australia. One country. What about UK, Canada, USA, and Netherlands ? and even more worrying what about all the other countries which are not doing investigations because Child Abuse is just part of 'normal' life to them. 

Bottom line - Jehovah's Witness children 10 times less likely to be sexually molested than the rest of the Australian population.  Wow, how unimpressive. 

Hany on in there Tom. Keep worshipping your Governing Body. Keep writing your book. Keep putting your head in the sand. :) 

It actually cannot be said of any religious organization's figures because none kept any records. Your words not mine. So how do you make the comparison ? You simply cannot compare if there are no other records. 

And please stop harping on about the ARC. that was old news and there are plenty more investigations going on now. 

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@TrueTomHarley Something else I've been looking into slightly, but not yet deeply is this :-

The Jews practised 'pikuach nefesh' and possibly still do. It means that life is more valuable than obedience to the Law. So in many cases the Jews were / are allowed to break the Mosaic Law to help someone to stay alive. 

Jesus said at Matthew 12 v 9 -12,  After departing from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10  and look! there was a man with a withered hand! So they asked him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him.11  He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out?12  How much more valuable is a man than a sheep So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath.” 

Jesus also said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'.  Jesus was quoting Hosea 6 v6. 

But it got me thinking about Blood transfusions to save life. If Jesus himself said 'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath. 

Was he saying it is right to go against Bible law and principles if it means saving a person's life ? 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Bottom line - Jehovah's Witness children 10 times less likely to be sexually molested than the rest of the Australian population.  Wow, how unimpressive. 

 

This could only be said by someone who would enable child sexual abuse.

There is a solution that cuts occurances by 90%. He finds that "unimpressive."

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11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And we get back to this point of the 'ten times better'. Let me give you an example. VW cars and now BMW also it seems, told lies about the amount of pollution their cars push out. BUT they would have given figures for how much pollution the cars pushed out, however the figures were lies. Now take that to the JW Org. The Governing Body / legal dept' / Organisation, would have given figures by the amount of Child Abuse cases it deemed to be 'real' and may have completely tossed out thousands of cases it deemed to be not worthy of actually making  a case out of. IF, the Org was using the 'two witness rule' then maybe thousands of cases were tossed out, because as it's been made clear before there was never two witnesses to sex abuse. And add to this, the fear of many congregation members to come forward, because of shame or not wanting to be disfellowshipped, then the numbers could easily treble.... As you know, in politics, figures are deliberately altered, so why should the GB be so different. As I've said before they call it 'spiritual warfare' to tell lies.

3rd time, look at what is said about spiritual warfare, no Christian who is true on this earth will allow man's law to override God's law. Christians will follow the laws of the land, but should a situation involves changing God's law and or what is written, expect civil disobedience, for that is what several people have done in the bible. Also as for the two witness rule, apparently any JW opponent will take it out of context compared to those who actually read up on what that rule is - me included.

As for child abuse reports, institutions are enabled to make record of such should they choose, minor or major information that they have. Many Jw church are not under fear of their own faith, you'd be surprised of how many current JWs and even former ones would rebuke you on the spot. The only people deemed fearful of a faith is a person, a Christian who does not want to believe in what they are taught, which is fact and true, especially in this day and age.

Lastly, if you have a big problem with Spiritual Warfare, David, Rehab and the others would not have succeeded, thus making God's promise be broken on the spot.

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Russia. A totally different story. Nothing to do with Child Abuse as far as i know. And yes to be persecuted for the sake of righteousness is a good thing. Jesus said it would happen. However Child Abuse is not righteous, so it is not persecution of the same type. It is demanding that the situation be made open to protect others from a similar fate.

On the contrary, there is some of us who knows what is going on in Russia and know what is taking place. The type of Child Abuse that has been taking place in 2016 prior to Vladimir Putin winning is grooming children and the youth to be on the side of the Kremlin, Nationalistic and the type of people who would give their lives for Russia, for the Kremlin, for the church, for the duma, and lastly, for Putin. On the other side of the spectrum, many youth have been listed on the FF website, especially those who are against Russian corruption and are targeted and if you speak on such obvious abuse, you can expect the FSB to be on your yard, your roof, and crashing through your windows. Prior to the JW ban, a Russia man, Kremlin opponent, had his door sawed off as the man they are going for was assuring his daughter, very young child, that everything is going to be okay, it has been speculated that this man was beaten carried off, and had a heart attack sometime after being apprehended, it is uncertain if he is alive or not because Kremlin Controlled Media speaks lies about nearly everyone. Obviously the child in question has been said to suffer from a form of abuse especially as to how the FSB treated her father.

Other then that, anyone that is deemed a threat to the Kremlin or its branches of power, being the duma and the church to name a few, will be targets, for even the youth will be subjected to a form of child abuse from their peers, from adults, and others, mainly mentally, but anyone close to their age, tends to get physical too, violent even. As for Sex abuse, well the FF software thing will expose you on the spot and you can't do a thing about it since whoever was the one who dropped the information and or images of you cannot be traced - defended by the Kremlin.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Jews practised 'pikuach nefesh' and possibly still do. It means that life is more valuable than obedience to the Law. So in many cases the Jews were / are allowed to break the Mosaic Law to help someone to stay alive. 

True, but the Jews, specially Judaism, will not break anything in the Tanakh to save their own skin. They also have the Halakhah, for this one should be quite obvious for they too will not break any religious law, and just like some religions, they too do internal investigations of anything within their community, even child abuse, murder, sexual assault, etc. However, some of their religious laws mirror that of some Christian faiths, including the Jehovah's Witnesses.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jesus also said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'.  Jesus was quoting Hosea 6 v6. 

But it got me thinking about Blood transfusions to save life. If Jesus himself said 'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath. 

Was he saying it is right to go against Bible law and principles if it means saving a person's life ? 

Jesus refers to mercy, and not sacrifice twice, for this can be found, as you said, in Hosea 6:6, as well as Matthew 12:7(see Proverbs 21:3 also). Matthew was tax collector who became an associate of Jesus Christ, and he is the only writer of the gospel to record this quote as well and in The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Matthew 18:21-25. In Matthew's gospel, he highlights Jesus’ repeated instances regarding that mercy is required in addition to sacrifice.

For the next part, understand the following verse.

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. - Matthew 5:17

Knowing this, it should be abundantly clear that Jesus is not the type of person to imply that one should break the law for their own benefit, in fact, breaking any biblical law and or principle would not only put you in a bad position with God the Father, but with Jesus also, for he did speak on those who break the law- you have to consider what is said in scripture as if you yourself was living in those ancient days and not try to modernize what is being said here.

That being said, I understand how you feel about the whole Blood Transfusion thing, but what you do not realize is the blood transfusion thing is not a JW thing only, in fact, other groups, even a race/nation (majority being those who adhere to African and or Caribbean based culture, some Hispanic and or EU) based on culture and superstition will not want anything to do with blood, as a Christian however, it is also necessary to recognize that you are under the New Covenant - then again,mainly in the places like the UK, as well as the US, it is a choice one will have to make and in the end, they will have to deal with what God has to say. In addition to that, because of faith, some people are willing to die for it and or defend others by giving their life, so to speak and ironically, there is a literal number and or statistics of Christians dying because of their faith or giving their life up to defend others of the same faith. In the end, what is seen is the person's faith and works, and because of their maintaining such faith under the New Covenant that they are under, as Christians, God will know of their faith and works, and by means of his Son, he will resurrect them, in addition, this strong point of a Christian pretty much defines who is true and who isn't, for the world will see it as something absurd, but to the majority who know the laws of which God placed and the principles, they will not be against so and so, as for God, he will repay them prior to resurrection, especially those who had suffered like this, but kept their faith intact.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It actually cannot be said of any religious organization's figures because none kept any records. Your words not mine. So how do you make the comparison ? You simply cannot compare if there are no other records. 

And please stop harping on about the ARC. that was old news and there are plenty more investigations going on now. 

Actually it does matter, again, people care ass much for these things than most, for there are records of things, be it minor and or major, to be in denial of what people look at is not the greatest thing to do, that is like ignoring records of those kidnapped into human trafficking, homicides, gun violence, rape, famine, community and or ethno based  crimes, etc. all of which there having statistics and records, again minor and major for the public to see, in return, having a good idea of the subject at hand.

As for ARC, it is not old news... Information, final reports, etc that is available deems such things as important and unforgettable as well as give people some clarity of everything in a timeline like fashion. Child Abuse is not old news either, and it is not old news in regards to the victims.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

ARC, Australia. One country. What about UK, Canada, USA, and Netherlands ? and even more worrying what about all the other countries which are not doing investigations because Child Abuse is just part of 'normal' life to them. 

Basically. Child Abuse, again, is globe and happens in all institutions, in some areas it happens a lot while in other areas it is a small percentage. At the same time, Child Abuse is pretty much accepted in the world as something normal and or accepted to the child culture, for instance, lets focus the United Kingdom.

Other then that, you'd be surprised that in some areas, child abuse is very low, at times, rarely happens. I made mention of several in a previous comment, and it  applies to all institutions, even religious ones in mentioned countries.

The team of six transvestites in the project have performed to over 2,000 children in the UK during the past eight months...

You can just do you': Boy, 10, founds a drag club for KIDS so they can express themselves in a 'positive, encouraging, and safe' space...

As we can see, such is an ongoing problem that has been popularized around the globe, obviously we see this as a form of child abuse and will be against it, while at the same time you have others who will defend this, which is clearly something that is wrong, the mental abuse is teaching that  child, regardless of their sex, can be any gender they choose to be or identify themselves, let's say, as a toaster, and you can't do a thing about it because people, including the laws in the UK will protect such persons from teaching such things. At the same time, you have the same people who accept such things target and or investigation religious faiths, only the Christians for the UK is known for being overly protective of Islam, as what was displayed a couple of weeks ago, and will crackdown on any Christian based faith if they have to regarding child abuse, but will not lay a hand on child abuse when it comes to a youth forced to marry their rapist, a youth being subjected to grooming and being part of the unlucky few who manage to escape a real underground based madness that the UK officials deemed as a hoax.

That being said, Child Abuse has 4 types of factions (possibly more):

  • Those that are openly against it, will fight against it by any means necessary while some will find a smarter and non-extremist like approach in doing so - better ways, so to speak and will attack the one who has committed the crimes and not a group as a whole. At the same time, such persons will be victims of abuse and or witnesses of an abuse in their community and will do anything to the best of their ability to take out the individual(s) who are responsible.

 

  • Those that are openly against it, will fight against it and will use an extreme approach and will literally trash and bash not only the individual, but the entire community and or group who are affected by child abuse and these same individuals are not better equip to deal with such a problem. Some will spark and or influence violence of said groups in order to have their way, even going as far as to form conspiracy and or negative remarks of the group whereas some people will take issue with how an aggressive approach is not appropriate, thus having not only to deal with child abuse, but those who are against their methods.

 

  • Those that will openly defend Child Abuse, and not only accept it, but normalize it as if it is something that a community and or the world should also accept, at the same time, spawns more pedophiles out of the woodworks, as well as those who are trying so hard to fight the urge, but since they are literal being persuaded by the works of the world by the works of the flesh, they give in, thus giving more pedophiles more excuses to go into churches, schools, and other institutions due to being influenced to do so - should the future abuser be a female and not the opposite sex, they tend to get off easy, no matter which country and or state, be it Florida, New York while the way to Liverpool, London and more.

 

  • The 3rd is the pretty much those in the middle, for they tend not to get involved with such things until they are dragged into it, should they suffer the abuse and or someone knows of such abuse, and or if they are in favor of this highly accepted and or normalized form of abuse and will be like a front line defense on those fighting against child abuse.
7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Hany on in there Tom. Keep worshipping your Governing Body. Keep writing your book. Keep putting your head in the sand.

Again regarding church leaders. You quoted Romans 13, you may want to cross-reference of where the first couple of verses point to, especially in regards of what Jesus had said about not so and so cannot have authority over him unless it was granted by God himself.

For if God speaks of Shepherds to govern his flock, the flock take guidance and adhere to what is taught, therefore, allowing the flock to understand scripture and worship and obey God the Father, for if there was no shepherd at all or at least some form of guidance to at least put so and so on a correct path, how does one understand who God the Father is if they do not know what something means?

An example would be of you bringing up Spiritual Warfare multiple times, even a Watchtower article without understanding what Spiritual Warfare is or the fact that Christians can do Civil Disobedience - for only those who know these things can teach a student and or disciple of the flock so they get a good idea of what those things actually mean.

The only way someone can achieve such without a shepherd, thus becoming a shepherd themselves to to fully grasp and understand what the bible says, and there is no excuse, no shortcut, no easy path. For any minor misinterpretation and or something taught can literally lead you astray very easily.

That being said, more is needed than just belonging to a religion, for any man can claim he is part of a faith and or that he or she is a Christian, but does the opposite of what a person of faith needs to do.

James 1:27 - Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

That being said, the bible makes it very clear of the role of a leader, who is also deemed a shepherd, a steward, etc and what he is to do regarding the flock, therefore, one who heeds the word of the shepherd is accepting guidance and accepting what is true, thus putting the students/flock in a right path in serving the one and true God, in addition, these same students are responsible to heed command from the Head of the Church himself, Jesus Christ, to go out there to spread the good news of the gospel, to baptism people and make them too disciples.

Just make sure you know what  the role of such persons in the church next time, for any person can see this clearly in the bible itself.

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This could only be said by someone who would enable child sexual abuse.

There is a solution that cuts occurances by 90%. He finds that "unimpressive."

The sad reality is that the general public only cares about the statistic and information provided while those on the other side of the spectrum tends to be out of the loop and not know of any such information and is willing to try and twist or break the truth instead of accepting what is true

Pretty much how things are going on with the whole gun control situation that has taken the US by storm, when real statistics pretty much proves as too much logic for those wanting change to accept -and will attack you what is true.

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@TrueTomHarley 

There is a solution that cuts occurances by 90%. He finds that "unimpressive." It only cuts it by 90% of the Australian population. 

The Australian population are 'part of the world' so it is expected that they are as bad as the rest of the world. So, why would you compare something that is supposed to be pure with something that is known to be rotten ? 

It's a bit like comparing the speed of a bicycle to the speed of a racing car. Sorry Tom I'm not impressed and I don't honestly think Jehovah is impressed either.

 It's back to what i've said before. The Nation of Israel offered their children in the fire to false gods, but they wouldn't have offered as many children up as the surrounding nations did. But what did Jehovah think of the Israelites actions of burning their children in the fire as offerings to false gods? do you think Jehovah was pleased with them ? Do you think Jehovah is pleased with the Governing Body and the JW Org as a whole for allowing Child Abuse to happen within His chosen organisation ? 

As for your sly accusation, I won't even bother to answer it. You know my true concerns, I've told you often enough. 

Go away Judas, back to your book writing, and counting the money you'll make. 

 

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24 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for your sly accusation, I won't even bother to answer it. You know my true concerns, I've told you often enough. 

 

One does not have to be a friend of something to enable it. Most enablers are not friends of what they enable.

I never accused you of being a friend of it.

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@Space Merchant I'm sorry but I cannot answer you. Your thoughts, or at least your words are miles away from my way of thinking. We have nothing in common here. You do tend to generalise and talk about other religions and about politics which are of no interest to me. 

I have few concerns as I'm not interested in what the outside world is doing. 

Tell me this and this is the important issue... Does Jehovah God judge His people by the standards of the 'world' ? OR. Does Jehovah God judge His people by God's own standards ?  Answer this truthfully.

Because i could judge myself by the 'worlds' standards and I would be 90% better than many people in the world, BUT, I know I am a sinner and I'm nowhere near as good as I should be.  I find it stupid to compare Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation (which I still see as God's chosen people) against the rest of the world, because i know the rest of the word is wickedly corrupt and it is controlled by the devil. 

My concerns are :-

The risk of further child Abuse within the JW Org.

The risk of assault by angry people, on the brothers and sisters in the ministry and in the Kingdom Halls due to the information now available about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org.

Compensation to victims of the Child Abuse that has already happened. And compensation comes in many forms, not just money.

The emotional damage done to victims and others that have been and are being shunned by their families and those they saw as friends. 

The possibility that the Governing Body are the wicked slave class that say 'The master is delaying in coming' and therefore the GB do 'their own thing' and do not obey God through Jesus Christ. In other words they are not the 'faithful and discreet slave'  that they say they are. So it could well be that Jehovah's Witnesses at this time are being misled, just as the Jews were being misled by the religious leaders when Jesus started his 'ministry'. 

And yes, there are a hundredfold concerns to be had. Concerns for those brothers and sisters in countries under ban is one.

But my heart and my brain are only of a small size and I cannot think of a hundred things at once.

My only concerns are for what is right In GOD'S eyes through Jesus Christ. I care not for the rest of the world in a larger way. People as individuals yes, the world no.

 

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@AllenSmith Um, hadn't the GB already set up a Legal dept for each of the two 'bodies', the W/T and the JW Org ?

And hadn't the one legal dept sent letters to the other legal dept, and then the other legal dept sent letters back, just to waste time and try to slow down the court proceedings. Isn't that why the judge got fed up with the stupidity of the Governing Body and the twisted way the GB handle their two legal departments, pretending that they were fighting against each other, when the GB could have just given the orders to either of them. And haven't the said letters been already posted online for the world to see. For goodness sake wake up and smell to coffee, no even better, wake up and smell the rats in the JW Org. 

And one of my points which is being continually overlooked, deliberately, is, Matthew 1 v 9 through 12,,,,  plus Jesus quote of Hosea 6 v6 when he said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. 

The Governing Body could quite easily say, we will give you all the information we have on the Child Abuse accusations.  That way they would be showing love to Jehovah and to the victims and to the cause of preventing any further victims. They could do all that willingly, but no. Are they being paid so much to keep it all secret ? Or, Are they so frightened of the results from doing it ? 

Because whatever they are doing, they are not doing it to serve Jehovah God. 

I'm not interested in legal obligations. The apostles were told not to preach, but they said 'We must serve God as ruler not men'  So cannot the Governing Body for once actually serve Jehovah God, instead of being cowards and hiding behind their legal departments. 

It is not about what is right in worldly law, it's not about what people think of the '90% better claim,  it's about what is right in the eyes of God. Oh how Jehovah must almost cry over all of you. It wonderful that He has the patience. 

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10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'm sorry but I cannot answer you. Your thoughts, or at least your words are miles away from my way of thinking. We have nothing in common here. You do tend to generalise and talk about other religions and about politics which are of no interest to me. 

I do not expect an answer because it was addressed multiple times already on the other thread, especially in regards to Spiritual Warfare and Civil Disobedience, how it applied to servants of God, to the days of Jesus and his followers, to present day, for no Christian will not allow God's law to change and or be override, doing such begets breaking God's Word no matter how crazy and or difficult things get, it cannot be broken for God's Word and what he put in place is a Nazareth Vow.

Other then that, anything I say is fact, true and or backed by verses, it is rarely my own thoughts, especially in regards to the experience. I can careless about politics (many reasons especially things regarding Entho-groups and double standards), however, they too are enablers of child abuse and at times the cause of it spilling into religion, as well as other problems that today's society in the US, the UK, Asia, and other EU countries suffer from, an example would be the death of Seth Rich and his co-workers, expect for one who was forced into hiding because she will end up deceased like her friends and ruled out as suicide - for politics begets corruption and such corruption and influence spread to individuals, in turn, spill into other institutions, mainly those who are not trusting of government and politics combined. Therefore, I do not trust politics and those who back, support them, for their causes begets an effect that can cause problems, the same could be said about government, I do not trust them either, especially with how they have been targeting religion, specially Christianity, for the past several years now, and have succeeded thus the decline in the US, the UK and other EU countries, this also includes Asia, in addition to how they are oppressing and kill the people with aid of the United Nations and affiliated supports who inject ideas and plans that honor them, examples being after the Las Vegas Shooting, government officials were silently killing off any known survivors to prevent the truth from being spoken, as well as going as far as to use influence and power overseas to get people killed and or assassinated, making it appear like an accident, Serena Shim being one person who was killed by US and UK government officials in Turkey, whereas to this day, her family, as well as Seth and the others, are seeking answers to find the truth with no fish on the hook to such information. Therefore, things such as these, I do not trust mainstream media or follow the blind ones that do, hence my past comments about the US and Russia.

I talk about all religions, even the false ones that are obvious, for how I was brought up is to understand of where so and so is coming from and by their faith, the rules and lifestyle they follow, creeds, tenets, vows, as well as any cultural based things involved in such religions and or faiths, pretty much the basics in Theology and Christology, if you will, as well as some things of Judaism and Islam - for in order to speak of the gospel, you have to go on the level and understanding of the individual who wishes to convert and or want to know who God really is, who is Son is and what the Kingdom is about and what it will bring.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have few concerns as I'm not interested in what the outside world is doing. 

Tell me this and this is the important issue... Does Jehovah God judge His people by the standards of the 'world' ? OR. Does Jehovah God judge His people by God's own standards ?  Answer this truthfully.

Child Abuse is a concern, and always will be, despite us not having the power to get rid of it 100%, just like how we cannot purge ourselves of imperfection, desire of the flesh, treacherous hearts that lead to bad decisions, and all that is sin, for we inherit such from Adam and by the time we leave the womb to the time we are laid to rest, we are sinners.

I believe I answered such before. God's law includes his rules and standards, for if his Shepherds provide this information and not doing what they are using as a guide thus makes you against God's law. For I mention this already regarding Civil Disobedience and Spiritual Warfare, should you do the opposite of what a Christian must do, even in the face of trial and error before you due to man's law, you end up breaking God's law, and we already know what Jesus' view is of those who break God's law.

It is tough, yes, but it is what it is until God allows his Son to return to the earth and fulfilling what needs to be done.

Until then, we apply what is found int he scriptures and we should not be cherry picking, changing the word, or accepting some things and not accepting other things, especially since we are under the New Covenant - so any man on earth who wants to change God's law, as mainstream Christians do already, they will have to answer to God the Father and whatever action he takes by means of his Son - one has to know God is Just and he has not changed, and what he will do to the individual will be final, especially in regards to breaking his law and standards of which rules Christians follow derive from.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My concerns are :-

The risk of further child Abuse within the JW Org.

The risk of assault by angry people, on the brothers and sisters in the ministry and in the Kingdom Halls due to the information now available about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org.

Compensation to victims of the Child Abuse that has already happened. And compensation comes in many forms, not just money.

Agree, child abuse is always a concern, but as I said before, there are smarter ways to deal with such things via education and the like, which I have already offered some examples in the other thread in this regard. We know that Christians of all kinds, Jehovah's Witnesses also, are trying to do their best in attempting to prevent child abuse, but as I said before, you save one child, elsewhere, it will not be the same, but education is key to helping prevent more individuals from coming in to tickle the ears of believers just so they can get to the children, at the same time, since most child abuse cases take place in the household itself, the family have to be aware of the signs and should seek help from every adult possible, for religious leaders are bounded by common law and religious law and at times will advise you, especially if the Bystander Effect is in play, which is the case with majority of the population in the world.

Unlikely, the world know who the Jehovah's Witnesses are and they know how Child Abuse has spilled over to religion. Such people educate themselves and others on the subject of Child Abuse, which makes them different from you because they are willing to educate others if they have the opportunity. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of this too, hence why they have articles based on this subject, at the same time, child abuse cases will not ever stop someone from being a convert, for what a convert cares about is bible truth from the scriptures and knowing that child abuse is a thing, with what they learn and their faith, they too will want child abuse to be gone from the world when Jesus returns, just like every other Christian, since I mention this multiple times to you already, as for Earth-wide, again, some areas have little to no child abuse, often times, regardless of a Christian faith, it tends to be the other way around, in religious institutions it tends to be far less than what is taking place in other institutions, as well as a abuse taking place in a household, in addition, if the abuse is a female and or another child, regardless of the child's sex, the consequences for actions differ greatly from a male abuser, be it the UK, the US, etc.

 

Agreed, compensation comes in many forms, but apparently people just tend to go for the money and nothing else, for such is quite evident. other times, the victim and or the victim's parent end up as Avengers of Blood, a worse case scenario where abuse is redeemed by the blood of the abuser, hence why some religions and institutions tend to advise so they do not get caught up in something as this, especially schools with the whole gun violence thing taking place.

Again, better ways of dealing with child abuse, better ways of educating a group of people, a family, etc. For if we can teach a child about puberty, about stranger danger, to drive a care, the do's and don'ts about dating, how to be a better listener/learner, teach about the internet, etc. we can also teach a child about child abuse, mind you with such education on this matter, a child is better suited to identify the signs of abuse and or help the abused with what they are taught.

For me, I do help child, especially those who had some form of abuse, and with what I had taught them from what I learned a long time ago, with that type of education, not only they will be better at doing such than most older people, but they can become mentors themselves and make a student a mentor and so forth.

That being said, yes child abuse is a concern, and I know there are better ways with dealing with such, and as the rest of the world also knows, you go for the individuals involved, not the group, which makes the difference in dealing with such differently from those going about child abuse the wrong way - burning the bible, spitting in the faces of Christians and throwing out their books is not a way to fight child abuse, and such action makes those who fight child abuse look like monster- for we are not such.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The possibility that the Governing Body are the wicked slave class that say 'The master is delaying in coming' and therefore the GB do 'their own thing' and do not obey God through Jesus Christ. In other words they are not the 'faithful and discreet slave'  that they say they are. So it could well be that Jehovah's Witnesses at this time are being misled, just as the Jews were being misled by the religious leaders when Jesus started his 'ministry'. 

But what is mentioned in the bible contradicts this claim, mainly the Spiritual Warfare one. If a group of Christians are not breaking any of law, rule, standard that comes the Bible, they are not deemed evil, again, Jehovah's Witnesses are Restorationist that emerged out of The Second Great Awakening, and any known Restorationist be it a religion in Christendom and or independents with core Christian roots, follow the bible cover to cover, book to book and strictly apply what is written to the point that it makes even Muslims blush. 

Rarely can you find independents expect for Christians who literally have gone off grid and or isolate themselves away from mainstream Christianity, however, organized religions that take the Great Commission command of Jesus Christ seen in Matthew 16:18, take the bible very seriously to the point the world thinks of such persons as crazy when in reality, such persons walk their talk.

Unfortunately for you, the JWs and their religious leaders are not evil and they are not doing their own thing for what they do comes from the bible, especially the laws and standards of which they follow and will adhere to civil disobedience if need be as genuine Christians tend to do.

That being said, if majority of Christians sees this, even us Unitarians, we do not consider JWs as false, nor do we compete with them or against them, we are neutral towards them and consider them as brothers and sisters of another tribe, if you will, like the Jews to the Samaritans of Mount Gerizim.

Lastly, attempting to break anything biblical for them, one has to say, who is really breaking or attempting to break God's law and standards of which his rules are based off of? The answer to that is very obvious and clearly anyone knowing what is right will side with God's law and not how man wants to view God's law - there is no middle group.

Also, the JWs would be deemed a threat if they did exactly the same of what mainstream Christians have been doing for decades now, but, the JWs, as do any real Christian, are against how the mainstream and the New Agers view God, for such groups who often call out minorities as false and or crazy, tend to be in the wrong.

In the end, Shepherds are not deemed as evil and or mislead if they literally follow the bible, this includes the JWs and the religious leaders of the faith, for unlike others, they are the face of non-trinitarianism and are known for a united faith in God, hence why they tend to be the front-line in things and taking a majority of attack from the religious and non-religious and are obviously infiltrated by those who want to dismantle them and those who are having pedophilia urges of children to literally plant a seed that would cause the group to stumble, at the same time, they always keep getting back up and growing and expanding no matter how many times they take a blow to the face.

As for us Unitarians, however, we tend to take major issue with the Trinity doctrine, immortal soul doctrine, the heaven and hell torment doctrine, as well as those who believe God can die and so forth, and any One World Religion infleuncer who is using the world as a literal turret on real truth and Christianity based on scripture.

Our God and Father is One and True, should anyone come up with something absurd, even what the other Unitarian denominations who are in error who teach this, will get rebuked and will be met by many Christians who oppose falsehood.

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And yes, there are a hundredfold concerns to be had. Concerns for those brothers and sisters in countries under ban is one.

But my heart and my brain are only of a small size and I cannot think of a hundred things at once.

My only concerns are for what is right In GOD'S eyes through Jesus Christ. I care not for the rest of the world in a larger way. People as individuals yes, the world no.

I worry about brothers and sisters all the time and how they are threaten, even killed, raped, and or is dying, but their oppressor allows them to die, even laughing at the Christian who is only seconds away from death - the world is a cruel place, and since the response is in regards to child abuse, all I can say it is far worse of what is going on in the underground, so explicit that even your country will not speak on this and will do nothing about it, elsewhere there have been beheadings, people getting poisoned, people dying for their faith and those who die because they gave in, it is not easy to remain faithful, nor is it easy to maintain salvation. Outside of this, you have those who are on a warpath to destroy a religion, Christianity itself with falsehood and those who just oppose God and his word.

Need not worry about your heart or brain if you know what is true and false, for God has given our minds such capability to think, process and contain memory, for the mind is marvelous - at the same time, the mind can be both a blessing and a curse, for freedom and free will for some can result in trouble and consequence.

That being said, the concern should have been the start from the get go. We know the problems that the world poses and how such things infiltrate everything and everyone, even religious groups that are ill-prepared for dealing with the unknown.

The world will continue to rove about and those on it who continue to do bad against the good and or use the good just so they can commit ill intent to do bad. But the ruler of this world's days are numbered and he knows he does not have time left, for he will be imprisoned, and eventually brought yo nothing for he shall guilty and be subjected to eternal destruction and will be not found anywhere, thus being no more.

So be vigilant and be enduring, for everyone here is on the same path as you are, and be careful to not be misled by the smallest ant sized of information because it can prove fatal, the example would be, again, spiritual warfare, for there will be a time where you yourself will have to put that to the test whereas there will be a great deal of pressure that will be upon you - but know that should you be under a situation that you have to apply spiritual warfare and or civil disobedience, know that your positive action in the matter will show God how much importance you place on his word and his standards.

For whatever happens to them, it will happen to you - always be ready for anything can go down in an instant.

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@AllenSmith Puff, hot air.

May Jehovah God forgive you all for your misuse of scripture and your hiding behind the laws of dishonest governments. 

You do no justice to Jehovah and you show no love or mercy to those who need it. You should all be  Pharisees ...... 

 

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On 3/29/2018 at 5:56 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

@AllenSmith Puff, hot air.

May Jehovah God forgive you all for your misuse of scripture and your hiding behind the laws of dishonest governments. 

You do no justice to Jehovah and you show no love or mercy to those who need it. You should all be  Pharisees ...... 

 

If he is misusing scripture, you have to prove this claim. There isn't anything being misused by @AllenSmith and there is enough prove and commentary to further push who is in the right and who is in the wrong, with the bible being the game changer to bolster said commentary of the verses you considered to be misused - it will not look pretty if such information is posted in detail as what took place before. For if we are to play on fair ground, last we discussed you were leaning towards saying how the JWs are at fault for Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience when the scriptures says otherwise and even showed God fearing men and women who are subjected to the same thing the JWs and other hardcore Christians practice to this day. You were also leaning towards changing what is written of which Christians, specifically Restorationist, follow to the core - literally.  For what is written is what rules and policy are based off of, especially Romans 13 as well as the verses I posted that cross reference to that chapter of preventing even the laws of the land from altering God's Word or stop you from worshiping God, hence Civil Disobedience.

Doing Justice for Yahweh/Jehovah also means not breaking scripture to fit your view of the bible vs. what is written in the bible for you to already follow and adhere to.

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@Space Merchant We will just have to agree to differ on things. 

Spiritual warfare may have been used by the Jews and the early Christians, but they used it to 'help' God's plans progress. It was inline with God's thinking and therefore approved by God Himself.

That is totally different to the JW Governing Body and Elders using this so called spiritual warfare to hide Pedophiles / Child Abusers within the JW Organisation. And using scriptures to form an excuse  for disfellowshipping and for shunning is not in line with God's purposes.... 

To withhold information for a wrongful purpose is as bad as deliberately telling lies. 

Yes i know the disciples disobeyed the law and went on preaching, so what, that has no relevance here.  Yes it was wonderful that they did carry on the preaching work and sad how much they suffered for it, but it was for God's purpose. 

The Governing Body have deliberately made rules to use people and to frighten people. Please get it in your head, people are scared of the GB and the Elders. Scared of being disfellowshipped for even saying a wrong word. Scared of being shunned, completely isolated from the whole Organisation. That's why i was so careful not to say anything that they would consider wrong, before I left the Org. They would have much prefered to disfellowship me rather than have me just 'walk away' as I did.  But however, the brothers and sisters are still too frightened to talk to me, even though I've committed no serious sin before God.  

But you will never understand it seems. Because you always include others,  the JWs and other hardcore Christians 

This is purely about the JW Org and it's Governing Body. I have no interest in any other religion or their ways. 

Anyway i have things to do, so cannot continue on here. We must just continue to have different opinions. 

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Please get it in your head, people are scared of the GB and the Elders.

I'm not scared of them. Nor do I know anyone who is. But if you are going to follow them on their heels and announce to all that they are vile, perhaps you would have reason to be.

42 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

They would have much prefered to disfellowship me rather than have me just 'walk away' as I did. 

 

This is different from what you said previously. You said they gave you an option to fade and you refused because you did not want to relinquish your 'platform.'

45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But however, the brothers and sisters are still too frightened to talk to me, even though I've committed no serious sin before God.  

 

You appear to think they are all eager to otherwise.

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@TrueTomHarley what i'm saying is people are frightened to express their own opinion about anything. A brother made a small suggestion as to something that would help in the ministry and basically he was told to just 'do what he was told by the Elders'. 

And yes they gave me the choice of staying in the Org and just sitting back and doing nothing, but once I'd told them i was definitely leaving I could tell they would rather have disfellowshipped me. As if i didn't have the right to just leave.  And that wonderful idea of not saying if a person left of their own accord of if they were disfellowshipped. It is obviously done for one purpose only. and that is so that people will shun the person that had the nerve to leave. Even if, like me, a person left for a righteous reason. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You appear to think they are all eager to otherwise.

We would get invited to people's homes and have people come here. We went to parties organised by brothers. I'm more of a one on one person and not keen on big crowds but it was ok a few times to be socialble.

And one particular sad case is, A brother whose wife died a couple of years ago, and it seems I was the only one that would visit him and help him do jobs around his house and garden. He is in his 80's and has heart problems and other health problems. We would sit like a couple of old men and talk about lots of things from the past. He was keen on motorbikes and I'm keen on motors cooters. We would go to auctions and other places and look at old 'things'.  We did ministry together, very slowly on the hills in the countryside. He would get his own maps that had to be completed within three months. We had great times and it was good for both of us. BUT now he won't even speak to me. It's a shame because he might not be getting any help from anyone now. But of course he's too frightened to be seen with me or to allow me to visit him. I know this as I'd emailed him since leaving the Org. I got a very simple reply.... 

Another one. A brother was supposed to be doing a job on my 4x4 vehicle. We had agreed a price and he had agreed to do it. But no. No sign of him, no contact at all. Now if he'd agreed to do the job, should he have followed through on it ? Because it was quite important to me as it was fixing the 4 wheel drive front hubs. so basically i didn't have a 4x4 to use in all the snow, which meant i couldn't help family members nearby. I've just had it fixed in my local garage now so it's all good, but the reason i hadn't got the garage to do it earlier was because I took that brother at his word that he would do the job. 

I've certainly learnt that they are not friends in the Org just brothers and sisters. Shame really, shows there is no true love. 

 

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@TrueTomHarley 

  • Quote "I'm not scared of them. Nor do I know anyone who is".

Once again it seems that you are calling all of the Victims of Child Abuse liars. 

Hundreds if not thousands of them Earthwide are all liars are they ?

Surely you can read how many of them have said the Elders were not approachable and that Victims were frightened of being disfellowshipped if they told anyone else or if they went to the police. Children are frightened of the Elders, adults are frightened on the Elders, old people are frightened of the Elders. You just don't want to see it. 

Put your head back in the sand

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

We will just have to agree to differ on things. 

Spiritual warfare may have been used by the Jews and the early Christians, but they used it to 'help' God's plans progress. It was inline with God's thinking and therefore approved by God Himself.

That is totally different to the JW Governing Body and Elders using this so called spiritual warfare to hide Pedophiles / Child Abusers within the JW Organisation. And using scriptures to form an excuse  for disfellowshipping and for shunning is not in line with God's purposes.... 

But you are not agreeing with none of the examples provided. Spiritual Warfare is Spiritual Warfare, and it is known to every man, every woman, every Christian who really reads their bible and take is seriously, that anyone who has emerged out of the Restorationist Movement, 100%, applies Spiritual Warfare as it were in the bible, therefore, Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups like them who are Restorationist apply Spiritual Warfare, you have yet to provide anything that makes them do things differently, when they did the same as the Rehab when it comes to protecting God's people and or servants, protecting their faith and belief in God, preventing any man made laws from overwriting God's law - something of which I address more than 4 times every time you say something that contradicts to what is true, especially to the publication you posted to which Spiritual Warfare was justified because the individual was protecting her faith and the ability to worship God. And everyone knows Spiritual Warfare begets Civil Disobedience, please look this up so you see what I have been saying time and time again in the previous post.

And no, the JWs are not using Spiritual Warfare to defend and or hide pedophiles. For starters, again, Restorationist Christians are bounded by religious law, they are to obey the laws of the land, but never, ever will they allow the law of the land attempt to change God's law because that right there would put them in a very bad position with God as well as Jesus, for both the Father and the Son spoke strongly on the Laws that have not been abolish, from the Old Covenant all the way to the New Covenant.

But as said before, if anyone does the research over the one sided arguments of JW opponents, they will see that they are not really hiding pedophiles as the opponents make claim of, thus allowing an attack on Christians around the globe for their resolve opens doors for witch hunts and a death march on the bible, even burning it if they have to. Other then that, there are sources that disproves the hiding claim, for it is mostly about the exchange of documents and nothing more.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

To withhold information for a wrongful purpose is as bad as deliberately telling lies. 

Yes i know the disciples disobeyed the law and went on preaching, so what, that has no relevance here.  Yes it was wonderful that they did carry on the preaching work and sad how much they suffered for it, but it was for God's purpose. 

Religious law and Secular law, this was addressed before. Actually it does, if you look up religious law, religious exemptions and the category of which internal church investigations are done in regards to documents, evidence and the like - church discipline. As it has been addressed.

As for pedophilia, it is a common disgusting thing and the action of one person who commits abuse, thus being a pedophile, hurts others around them despite not being the victim themselves.

But like I said, in the end, it will not stop people from converting to the JW faith, nor will it stop others from joining another faith, nor will it stop parents sending their children to schools and or clubs.

Other then that, the thing that does concern me is JWs are too nice of a people, and that allows for a a convert, who just happens to be a pedophile to take advantage of them so easily.

Child neglect and abuse prevention teaches that those who eek to abuse a child will take advantage of the group in question and or the chosen victims families in order to gain access to a child, and will prey on those who normally do not fight back and or not educated and or experience to handle and or diffuse such a situation.

As we speak, there are churches right now teaching their staff about how to identify child abuse and or what to do if it happens/aftermath of it. One of the things addressed, like any all PSA for child abuse is to tell another adult and or if possible, inform another adult yourself, be it someone of authority and or advise the victims parents to do something.

For an example, a victim, a child, contact authorities for it was said the abuser prevented the child from calling his parents for this was the case 3 months ago. The reason this was possible because the parents were well in the right to teach the child. Another example would be a situation taking place in a church, the church staff advise the victim and their parents to go seek the police, for even though they did not have very little evidence, they have the word of the victim.

But it would seem I am among the few who holds confidence that God will put an end to what man cannot contain themselves, especially when it comes to the errors of the flesh.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Governing Body have deliberately made rules to use people and to frighten people. Please get it in your head, people are scared of the GB and the Elders. Scared of being disfellowshipped for even saying a wrong word. Scared of being shunned, completely isolated from the whole Organisation. That's why i was so careful not to say anything that they would consider wrong, before I left the Org. They would have much prefered to disfellowship me rather than have me just 'walk away' as I did.  But however, the brothers and sisters are still too frightened to talk to me, even though I've committed no serious sin before God.  

But when I asked for the rules and gave a response before as to why such rules exist.

And no, people are not scared of their own church leaders - for this is what only comes from the side of JW opponents, for they push this notion time and time again, even when other former JWs disproved them, they were shut down  and or had their responses erased (especially when the jw opponents had somehow flagged all videos by former witnesses to hide that information from others).

Disfellowship if I am not mistaken is a practice of expelling a person from the church, it is a practice that is done and has been done by all religious groups known to man, to Jews it is called Herem and to Muslims it is called Takfir. For anyone subjected to excommunication is also subjected to a shunning command, for this is indeed biblical and not a made up rule and being excommunicated is indeed a shock for the churchgoers and the person in question, including their family.

Fact: In religious and ecclesiastical contexts, shunning is a form of church discipline... This form of excommunicated derives from 1 Corinthians 5:11.

I would not say they get excommunicated for saying the wrong word because if history of Christianity already taught us, there are several things, even verbally, that can get someone excommunicated, the JWs are no different. For if someone goes to a church and curses God aloud, using scripture to bash the faith, twisting a teaching, etc verbally, it would get you kicked out of a church, even if you said something in a come way. In addition to that, interfaith teaching will get one excommunicated, which seems to be your case with the JWs.

An excommunication can take place by other means too, but doing something verbally can get you kicked out too, there was a quote from someone, a guy who was learning about all church denominations, if I find it I will post it here sometime.

Other then that, there is a far worse form of excommunication that is out there that makes the others look like paper in the wind.

So that being said, it is unlikely that they made this up themselves when Paul and John made it clear, as well as God himself, who wants to maintain a purity and holiness in the faith regarding removing people from the midst of the people who have done wrong, examples being Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu and or the individuals mentioned in scripture of whom Paul himself had expelled from the congregation.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But you will never understand it seems. Because you always include others,  the JWs and other hardcore Christians 

This is purely about the JW Org and it's Governing Body. I have no interest in any other religion or their ways. 

Anyway i have things to do, so cannot continue on here. We must just continue to have different opinions. 

 

Actually I do understand and know enough to stand where I am and not be easily tickled by any religious opponents of a faith, even against atheist who tend to wise up to use scripture against you.

Yes I do include others, but majority of what I say is directed to the Watchtower itself, for it was evident to nearly 99% of my comments towards you, which is both fact and true. But if you want that 1% to be different, then I am welcome to keep it that way. Other then that, you may want to re-read my comment of where you pulled my quote from, for  it is true that JWs do Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience for you previous claim was using a Watchtower story to attempt to disprove what is actually true. You stated you wanted JWs to change their rules, but disregard God's Law and the fact that JWs will indeed be prompted to do Civil Disobedience, even when it comes to the laws of the land - for unlike others, they do not want to break any of God's law.

That being said, with whatever you are doing stay safe because there is some things taking place regarding Christianity that can prove troubling for some.

Also note: Hardcore Christians are the ones that study and follow the bible 100% to its core, technically they are JWs themselves for such persons are Restorationist , ironically, some have gone off grid - literally, which I find quite interesting, for I posted a video from one of them who spoke against Christmas in one of my responses to Swaili. 

Also it is Child Abuse month. For if out re as committed to the cause as I am, contribute to it, for I did so before the Passover, hence my absence for about 4-6 days.

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42 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Amen to THAT!

 

Oh, stuff it!

If there are two people who can be depended upon to change not one iota, and who, when you answer a question, will simply ask it again, I am looking at them.

Go back into the archives and construct my own answer for yourselves.

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@Space Merchant So which of these am i then ? But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 

Now, I'm not even pretending to be a brother. And as far as i know I'm not committing these direct sins.  Of course i commit sin as everyone does, and I ask God's forgiveness through Jesus christ. So why are the JW's not allowed to talk to me ? 

And many people that say they have been wronged in the JW Org and have left the Org because they felt deeply hurt, or because they were wrongly treated by Elders, are now shunned. Why ? It proves that no one has friends in the Org, only brothers and sisters that do their duty to one another.  

And like I've said to others YOU ALL THINK THAT ALL THE VICTIMS EARTHWIDE ARE TELLING LIES. How misled you all are. 

Do you honestly think that a few apostates have gone around the Earth, Australia, Canada, USA, Netherlands and UK, and made all the stories up concerning Sexual Child Abuse ? Do you really believe that ?  

Well that's your choice. I would rather have empathy for the victims and also be concerned about future victims, whilst the Pedophiles are kept hidden in the JW Org... 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So which of these am i then ? But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 

Obviously not one of them. But in your other post as to how you stated your situation with the Jehovah's Witness church you went to falls in the verbal category whereas one can be excommunicated for spreading a doctrine that is not of the faith.

An example would be is this: A man can go into a church and be a member of it, a convert for about a decade, but his views change based upon what he ahs read on the Old Testament, thus wanting to know why God did what he did and paint God as villian, and should this man speak of this matter to the pastor and or church staff, even if giving the right information he refuses, thus he is excommunicated.

In your case with the JWs, you mentioned before about how you are somewhat removed from the church, and it is a known fact that for the JWs (Restorationist) is that if one speaks against the faith and the teachings, again, verbally, be it aggressive and or passive, there is grounds for excommunication. Examples would be, people will automatically assume John 1:1 (introduction to God) proves Jesus is God, or in this case, Jehovah. Being totally convinced, they will start to spread such inside the church and when they profess their so called newfound faith based on misconception of the verse, they will be excommunicated. The same thing applies for assuming if one person decides to interpret the bible for themselves and think it is correct over what the church teaches, again, grounds of excommunication, and such applies to what you had mentioned in a post you made a while back to which I offered you advise when you clearly showed you didn't know what to do or what to say, and I did everything in my power and understanding to provide advise - it is the same thread to where Witness attempted to use a typo against me, to which is utterly failed due to my comments being against the King James.

That being said, you'd be surprise of how those who believe in the Trinity Doctrine, as well as Gnosticism, Oneness, and Modalism will attempt to use a single verse over and over against to attempt to attack Non-Triniarian, specifically JWs, as well as those influenced by such doctrine to try to shift the teachings of JWs from the inside.

Mainstream Christians do not practice and or believe excommunication is necessary, thus saying it causes fear among members, there influence spreads to those who practice it, thus making the notion of members being fearful because they play into the hands of mainstreamers and New Age Christians. 

In the end, following the bible strictly and trying to cherry pick and or change a rule and or law of those who are hard pressed in scripture will indeed get you excommunicated. Just remember that those who have pure strictness of scripture will effectively excommunicate you should you think what they are doing is not biblical, even worse for one if they speak against the faith, thus becoming an apostate.

But it is ridiculous for some JW opponents though, for I had seen one speaking about placing his hands on someone's forehead to heal people, another who assumes Nicodemus was at the Passover/memorial and will go out of their way to say JWs are false, others will say that anyone who isn't a JW will be destroyed, when the information from the JWs themselves and what the bible says disproves this false claim or something like that, teachings like this does not sit well with the JWs and such falsehood can easily be spread to the inside and the ban hammer of excommunication will follow suit.

From my experience though, we had a man who was claiming that Jesus was for homosexuality, the man was not just excommunicated, for he was obviously influenced by today's society, he was rushed out by church staffers by command of the church leader, again, things of that nature, even verbally, aggressive and or passive, can put one in a position of excommunication - expelling.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now, I'm not even pretending to be a brother. And as far as i know I'm not committing these direct sins.  Of course i commit sin as everyone does, and I ask God's forgiveness through Jesus christ. So why are the JW's not allowed to talk to me ?

Spreading interfaith teachings and or doctrine is grounds of excommunication. In fact, Anti-Christians have already spread their influence by teaching How to Get Excommunicated from a Church, and they have some verbal ques of which majority of religious will have a specific reaction, it is no different with JWs, for any interfaith talk in an attempt to shift what the JWs teach is asking for excommunication, there are also clearly ways to accept Jesus and use such to be excommunicated on the stop, like accepting Jesus and denying of the foundation Jesus left behind, for JWs take the foundation of Jesus seriously, hence The Great Commission and the church that Hades cannot bring down, Matthew 16:18.

JWs are not allowed to speak to you because excommunication and or expelling prompts the Shunning Command, which is seen in the verse I provided above. Members are not suppose to speak with the one who has been excommunicated, however, it does not stop the one kicked out from attending the JW church. JWs however, are still allowed to offer counsel, should the excommunicated be a child, the child cannot interact with anyone else, and sits with his or her family, if the excommunicated is disabled and or stick, they are still cared for by the family.

Excommunication and shunning is indeed biblical, however, religious ties may be broken, but blood ties still remain, the family in question will counsel the one who is repentant, however, one who is unrepentant, attacking the faith and or otherwise, leads one to apostasy, and a point of no return, thus putting you further to the point of thinking and or assuming things and being victim of influence that is negative.

That being said, what you displayed in your situation was spreading interfaith inside the church, thus you being dealt with. Clearly you still love God and his Son, however, you show a total disdain for what JWs teach, hence all your other comments and not realizing what, why and how scriptural teachings apply to JWs and if you were among them long enough, you would know about the religious and blood ties comment.

If you look at someone as an enemy, they will not be a friend to you, even if you use to be among them.

Other then that, read up on excommunication of how and why Christians apply it, as well as the shun command that follows from it. For it is was in the bible, there is no reason to ignore it, as I said to someone before, if the people who hate JWs the most acknowledged that shunning is biblical, but will brush over their comments by speaking of something unrelated to the subject that is excommunication.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And like I've said to others YOU ALL THINK THAT ALL THE VICTIMS EARTHWIDE ARE TELLING LIES. How misled you all are

5th time, as a guy myself who actually helps children, some abused and even scarred for life, you clearly ignore every word I said. And no, never have I said victims are lying, for a good friend of mind took it to her grave I suggest you not making checks you cannot cash.

You are accuse people of being mislead, yet you ignore truth and facts, all of us know child abuse is a problem, there is no question about that, at the same time, we are smart enough to know, the world is smart enough to know how to deal with the problem. Regarding JWs, we can use ARC as an example because in your early comments, you made a remark about ARC,but when the final report facts are placed before you, you remain unconvinced and in denial. You claim the people of the world do not care about statistics in child abuse, when Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention says otherwise, for people care for these things, just as they care about the statistics of crime, violence, murder and the like in the area they live in for it is important to them, just as child abuse is.

You remain unconvinced that child abuse has infiltrated not only  the schools, the but churches as well, this influences the JW churches, and it is said that religious institutions are plagued by and not very well equipped to deal with child abuse and or prevent an abuser from taking action, thus educating themselves and the people on the matter by means of sermons and publications - for saving at least a child from abuse is a plus because the reality is not all children can be saved and it is very difficult to prevent such cases.

I also mentioned race before, for a majority of child abuse takes place not only in the household, regardless of the person's faith, but the the abuse is normally done by a Caucasian males, be it in the US or the UK, and speaking about the UK, the very people who are investigating the JWs of child abuse are being checked out themselves for sending out children aboard who end up suffering.

That being said, it is agreeable child abuse is everywhere, as for the JWs, it is mostly the US, the UK and AU, some parts of EU, however it is very very low in places like the Congo, Asia, even Russia, and several others and the JWs are but a small percentage of the big picture - something you seem to not see for that response was address more than 5 times yet you bring this up again.

Next time you assume someone is mislead, make sure their facts and information is false because the way I see it, you tend not to read into what is said half the time, which is evident, even some of the information I posted from Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention itself - who do not mislead the masses with their information.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you honestly think that a few apostates have gone around the Earth, Australia, Canada, USA, Netherlands and UK, and made all the stories up concerning Sexual Child Abuse ? Do you really believe that ?  

No, but an Apostate who said that 3 of her children were abused in a JW preschool seems to be a lie, for JWs do not build preschools. UK media claims that JWs have an underground sex ring for child grooming, to which some apostates push this information out, which was indeed a lie. JW opponents writing "Watchtower knows" all over the place and claiming the JWs did it, is a lie and they know it too. JW opponents will attack JWs because they are affected by child abuse, but ignore child abuse taking place elsewhere and or in other churches, which was evident in the ex-bible student's video of which the JW opponents, one of them you posted their gofundme, managed to report and take down on YouTube, for should that 1 hour video still exist, it will shattered half of your claims of a man who is not a fan of bible students, not a fan of JWs, but a man who knows right from wrong and understands how better ways can solve a problem, for he was the very man who stopped the group from accessing a nearby park.

And last I check, nowhere was it ever mention by me that someone is making up a story, but at the same time, when there is information out there, what can be said of you is you tend to at times being in denial of facts.

I would not throw Australia into the mix either since your previous claims on the ARC final reports and words of the victims themselves.

I know what I believe and as someone myself who does help and educate children on child abuse, I am not a pawn to those who are on a warpath to destroy and beget aggressive behavior. I take the word of a Warwick citizen though, who said what JW opponents are doing is borderline extremist in their actions, which they have provide themselves to be.

And yes, there several bible verses on such a manner too.

Other then that, as I said, I am smart enough to know better solutions, some of which I provided her in the past, and will not subject myself to the position you are in right now, but eventually you will come to your senses though.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well that's your choice. I would rather have empathy for the victims and also be concerned about future victims, whilst the Pedophiles are kept hidden in the JW Org... 

Oh I do have empathy for those I have taught have become leaders themselves in dealing with violence and abuse problems and helping those affected by it and it was not by choice as you claim nor was it ever from the beginning, hence my responses to your claims.

If you are truly concerned about the victims, know that you should be doing them justice in the right way, not in the manner you are going about. And of course, pedophiles cannot be stopped at all, only God can put an end to that. The JWs, and everyone else has to put up with pedophilia until the end times conclude, only then pedophilia would be wiped off the face of the earth - that is what I am counting on to see and you who are God fearing, you be like this also, but sadly, you consume every word of JW opponents and what those who are against Christianity is saying - the very reason why your country is suffering a decline in Christianity, so is Asia, so is the US.

In the end, you cannot judge an group for the actions of a bad person, especially if that person is a pedophile, for child abuse prevention even states pedophiles will work their way up and earn trust to get to their target. I advise you to read up on the numerous information on child abuse prevention before you bring up claims as you did previously and as of what you had said now, in addition, you should also check out the very people who are investigating the JWs in UK, for they're connections are not to shy either as they hide behind Teresa May.

 

Regarding Excommunication though, I leave you with this quote:

Quote

Jesus is solemnly entrusting the Church with the power to bind and loosen, and this is closely tied with the Church’s ability to excommunicate unrepentant sinners. And it’s more than just an ability. Jesus actually instructs it as the appropriate course of action to be taken in the case of certain unrepentant sinners. They are be ostracized, in the way that the Jews of the time treated Gentiles and tax collectors.

 

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      Randy Wall, a real estate agent, filed the suit against the Highwood congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in Calgary, Alberta.
      Wall was expelled from the congregation for getting drunk and not be properly repentant, court records said. He pursued an appeals process through the Jehovah’s Witnesses then went to court because he said the Witnesses’ “shunning” — the practice of not associating with him in any way — hurt his business.
      He explained his two occasions of drunkenness related to “the previous expulsion by the congregation of his 15-year-old daughter.”
      A lower court opinion said: “Even though the daughter was a dependent child living at home, it was a mandatory church edict that the entire family shun aspects of their relationship with her. The respondent said the edicts of the church pressured the family to evict their daughter from the family home. This led to … much distress in the family.”
      The “distress” eventually resulted in his drunkenness, Wall said.
       
      Wall submitted to the court arguments that about half his client base, members of various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations, then refused to conduct business with him. He alleged the “disfellowship had an economic impact on the respondent.”
      During high court arguments Thursday, the congregation asked the justices to rule that religious congregations are immune to such claims in the judicial system.
      The lower courts had ruled that the courts could play a role in determining whether or not such circumstances rise to the level of violating civil rights or injuring a “disfellowshipped” party.
      The rulings from the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Alberta Court of Appeals said Wall’s case was subject to secular court jurisdiction.
      A multitude of religious and political organizations joined with the congregation in arguing that Canada’s courts should not be involved.
      The Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms said in a filing: “The wish or desire of one person to associate with an unwilling person (or an unwilling group) is not a legal right of any kind. For a court, or the government, to support such a ‘right’ violates the right of self-determination of the unwilling parties.”
      Previous case law has confirmed the right of religious or private voluntary groups to govern themselves and dictate who can be a member.
      But previously rulings also reveal there is room for the court system to intervene when the question centers on property or civil rights.
      The Association for Reformed Political Action described the case as having “profound implications for the separation of church and state.”
      It contends the court should keep its hands off the argument.
      “Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.”
      John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said: “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.”
      He continued: “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.”
      The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the case was about more than ecclesiastical rules.
      “Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.”
      The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.”
      The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged.
      “Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”
       
                     
    • By Jack Ryan
      I'm a 21 yo PIMO on the West coast. My family and I attended a wedding this past Saturday and I was completely disgusted by my family's and congregation's behavior.
      The couple that got married are both studies, so they didn't get married at the Kingdom Hall. However they requested an elder to give the wedding ceremony talk (and I call it a talk because it was 95% scriptures and 5% about the couple) and they invited mostly JWs aside from their families.
      Everything was going pretty well, until about 40 min after the ceremony. I just finished eating when my dad whispered to my brother and I that we had to leave because there was a DF'd woman that was invited. I sincerely apologised to the couple for leaving because I felt awful that I had to play along with all of the invited JWs and awkwardly leave the wedding so soon.
      Once my family was in the car, I asked my dad who the woman was. He revealed to me that it was the groom's mom. Apparently a couple of elders went and talked to her and asked her to leave. She refused, so they let her know that we'll all be leaving.
      I was shocked and appalled at the insanity of the situation I found myself in. This couple isn't even baptised and they invited more JWs than family to their wedding only to have them all leave because the groom's mom is in attendance. To top it all off, the brothers afterwards were saying stuff like: "I can't believe that she could be that selfish" and "Aw that poor couple, because of ONE person, everyone had to leave. She totally ruined their wedding".
      The indoctrination is insane in this cult, of fucking course the groom is going to invite his own mother to his wedding. I can't believe that I'm expected to feel offended at the mother for refusing to leave her son's wedding. I really hope that the newlyweds see this as crystal-clear evidence that this is a cult.
      - Contributed
      --------------------------------
      Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?"
      He said, "He who showed mercy on him."
      Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise... Unless they're dfed then leave em to die."
       
      --------------------------------
      Their actions are codified as follows:
      *** w81 9/15 p. 30 par. 23 If a Relative Is Disfellowshiped . . . ***
      "There is no point in looking for some rule as to family members being at gatherings where a disfellowshiped relative might be present. This would be something for those concerned to resolve, in keeping with Paul’s counsel. (1 Cor. 5:11) And yet it should be appreciated that if a disfellowshiped person is going to be at a gathering to which nonrelative Witnesses are invited, that may well affect what others do. For example, a Christian couple might be getting married at a Kingdom Hall. If a disfellowshiped relative comes to the Kingdom Hall for the wedding, obviously he could not be in the bridal party there or “give away” the bride. What, though, if there is a wedding feast or reception? This can be a happy social occasion, as it was in Cana when Jesus attended. (John 2:1, 2) But will the disfellowshiped relative be allowed to come or even be invited? If he was going to attend, many Christians, relatives or not, might conclude that they should not be there, to eat and associate with him, in view of Paul’s directions at 1 Corinthians 5:11."
      No rule given LOL, gotta love Watchtwer's constant plausible deniability wording.
    • By Jack Ryan
      A Norwegian JW woman, who was sexually abused, was disfellowshipped for fornication. The woman first appealed inside the organization - without success. Feeling injustice, she then decided to sue Jehovah's Witnesses. The court decided last month that the disfellowshipping was against the Norwegian law and must be canceled. The court also ordered the local Jehovah's Witness organization to pay 100 000 NOK to the woman.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. is the story, in a Norwegian newspaper.
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      I do find it kinda' funny that JW's love to talk about billions of people being removed / destroyed / killed / murdered at Armageddon. Billions of people.
      And for what ? Well JW's say it's for not serving God. But they will also say it's for not being a baptised JW. 
      Well we do know for sure that God either deliberately had, or deliberately allowed, the destruction of Jerusalem in circa 70 C E, and for what ? 
      Well the Bible shows us it was for not serving God properly, and for killing God's son. 
      BUT when I suggest that the Governing Body should be removed or destroyed, oh dear, the JW's they get really upset ya know. 
      Governing Body = 8 men.   Jerusalem = how many, men, women and children, thousands of them. 
      But oh dear, now it would be murder. So what was it back then ?  Your see JW's live in a dream world, wrapped up in cotton wool, they just cannot face the real world.
      The Governing Body do not serve God properly. That is clearly visible to anyone that honestly wants to see it. 
      The Governing Body are destroying JW Org, and if JW Org is God's true Organisation then the GB are deliberately working against God and against God's intentions. 
      Humans that deliberately work against God and cause problems for God do not last long on this Earth. 
      The Bible shows much proof of this, such as those that opposed Moses. 
      I am expecting the GB to be removed, one way or another. But only if God really wants to use the JW Org / Watchtower soc for His own purposes. 
      If God does not want to use those Orgs then it would seem sensible for God to set up a new Org for His purposes. 
      The only problem with the GB being 'removed' is that JW's will call it a 'sign of the times' and 'persecution', but if God causes the removal then I'm sure He will put them straight. 
      Those people that say that the GB cannot be removed / destroyed, are those people that worship the GB. And those people that worship the GB may probably need removing too. 
      The world is wicked, it belongs to Satan. The Earth is wonderful and it belongs to Almighty God.
      For God to save this Earth and for Him to save a few humans too, drastic things have to take place. Drastic things have to take place.
       
    • By Albert Michelson
      What is the good news?
       
      The Bible is clear that even if someone had been clearly selected by god if they deviate from the truth they are to be rejected. 
       
      Galatians 1:8-9 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed.  9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.
       
      This holds even more weight for ones like the GB who are not clearly selected and who's claim to authority rests solely on a demonstrably false interpretation of scripture.
      The organization claims that the 1914 teaching is necessary for salvation and even goes as far as to claim that the 1914 teaching is the good news spoken of in the Bible.
      *** w67 12/15 pp. 753-754 pars. 3-4 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached ***
      "What a joy-inspiring addition or enlargement to the good news now to be preached! Now has come the victorious kingdom of our God together with the authority of his Christ, his Messiah! As for Satan the Devil and his demons, they have only a short period of time until they are bound and imprisoned in the abyss after the “war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Armageddon. All this additional wonderful information has been true since the end of the “appointed times of the nations” in 1914, and particularly since World War I closed in the year 1918. Not before the “appointed times of the nations” ended in the fall of 1914 could the good news be preached of the newborn, established heavenly kingdom of God and of his Messiah. This, then, must be the good news that Jesus Christ in his prophecy said had to be preached first in all the nations. (Mark 13:10) This generation of human society that has seen and experienced the world events since the Gentile Times closed in 1914—this is the “generation” that will not pass away until all the things foretold have happened, including the preaching of the good news first in all nations.
      4 Jesus’ prophecy in Mark 13:10, “Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first,” has not been undergoing fulfillment during the past nineteen centuries. It is only since the second decade of our twentieth century that this prophecy has been undergoing fulfillment. This began to be realized by the International Bible Students Association and the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society since the end of the second decade of our century. In the magazine issue of July 1, 1920, of The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence the article was published entitled “Gospel of the Kingdom” and based on the theme text, “‘And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.’—Matthew 24:14.”
       It is for this reason that the organization is chained to the 1914 teaching. As the scripture I quoted above demonstrates the Bible says that one who teaches a good news that is false is cursed. If the organization admits that the 1914 and 1919 teachings are false they will have to admit that not only were they not selected as gods channel but that they have been teaching a false good news for the majority of their existence. It is for that reason that they disfellowship and shun people who cannot conscientiously remain in the faith. It's easier to just eliminate the opposition then to actually address the real issues with your theology. 
      *** w86 4/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
      Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
       
      "Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
       
      That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4."
       
      This is supposedly a list of the fundamental doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses that all are required to believe. You will in most cases be disfellowshiped for not believing in one or more of them. Unfortunately the truth is most of them are false.
    • By Jack Ryan
      If the love you have for your children is predicated on their beliefs, you don't love your children you love YOUR beliefs
    • By Jack Ryan
      In previous decades, when someone was disfellowshipped, they were told their time would be 6 months. Now it’s a full year?
      Why did that change from 6 mo to a year? and are they getting more ppl to come back with the increased time? With the less members staying in the org, you would think they want to lower the “jail time “
      Also are there any other religions that gives you months or years of time out, if you commit a sin, even if you actually want to come back?
      Also any former elders here? Why is there a standard set time for everyone? And why can they reject someone’s letter who wants to come back? Don’t they need more members ?
    • By Jack Ryan
      Jehovah's Witness Organization Redefines Shunning to Falsely.mp4
      Every JW visiting this page should MORALLY comment below and publicly state that this JW Lawyer is LYING through his teeth to the Canadian Supreme Court.
      If you don't, YOU participate in this gross sin. Because you ALL KNOW this is a false statement.
      Remember as well that this JW Lawyer is also an Officer of the Court.
      What the courts do not know is that JW's consider outright lying in court a part of "theocratic warfare" just like Muslims do. So it is a virtue to them.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. SMH.
      Can you spell P-E-R-J-U-R-Y?
    • By Jack Ryan
      "Sunday, December 30
      Asa’s heart was complete with Jehovah all his life.—1 Ki. 15:14.
      Each of us can examine his heart to see if it is fully devoted to God. Ask yourself, ‘Am I determined to please Jehovah, to defend true worship, and to protect his people from any corrupting influence?’ For example, what if someone close to you has to be disfellowshipped? Would you take decisive action by ceasing to associate with that person? What would your heart move you to do? Like Asa, you can show that you have a complete heart by fully relying on God when you are faced with opposition, even some that may seem insurmountable. You may be teased or ridiculed at school for taking a stand as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Or colleagues at work may taunt you for taking days off for spiritual activities or for not often working overtime. In such situations, pray to God, just as Asa did. (2 Chron. 14:11) Remain firm for what you know is right and wise. Remember that God strengthened and helped Asa, and He will strengthen you.
      w17.03 3:6-8 "

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    • By Jack Ryan
      This was a case where in June 1987, the United States Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit upheld the Witnesses' right to shun those who fail to live by the group's standards and doctrines, upholding the ruling of a lower court.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Has there been any cases after this, where DF cases went to court? Have there been cases in other countries were DF decisions were challenged and reversed?
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      Here in the United States we have Cable TV with such things as "History Channel", "Discovery Channel", "Scifi Channel", and "A&E" the "Arts and Entertainment Channel".  Apparently around November 13 of this year they had a famous (?) TV star, Leah Remini,  who had been a Scientologist since she was eight years old turn Apostate, and she has done at least two TV seasons exposing the ills of the Church of Scientology", do an Expose' of Jehovah's Witnesses.
      I do not watch TV as a rule, and missed it, and I spent a few days looking for it and trying to download a copy.  It was not on YouTube, but I did find it under "Aftermath Jehovah's Witnesses" on the Russian equivalent of YouTube, "Rutube.ru". It would not download with my usual download software, so I had to find a free screen capture software, which took about four hours to get the settings just right, and I was able to download the two hour program from my monitor, as it was playing.
      Therefore, I watched the TV program three times, as I experimented with the settings to get a good screen copy to my hard drive..
      I could see both sides of the program viewpoints presented, and did not find us to be misrepresented in any way whatsoever ... but if there was EVER a clear example of the Law of Unintended Consequences, the horror the Governing Body has caused in disfellowshipping the way that it is currently done ... by ripping families apart, and creating  irreparable damage that can never be corrected with reinstatement, was chilling, and puts us in the same class as Scientologists ... which completely disregarding the horror and hardsip, and cruelty without any mercy whatsoever it creates locally, shames Jehovah's Name and Reputation over the whole planet.
      I don't believe there is anything a local Jehovah's Witness could do ... rob a bank ... have a harem ... have sex with horses ... etc., ad nauseum ... that would besmirch Jehovah's name and reputation globally as much as our current blatantly cruel public policies of destroying whole families for the sins of one person.
      I am very glad to have the education I have to know that the TRUTH is still the truth .... even though the 85% drivel has rotted and fermented into rotten sewage.
      Most JWs do NOT have this educational advantage ... so their lives are permanently destroyed.
      I don't expect much from people, and almost NOTHING from groups of people .... so for me, like getting one of those great salads at the Olive Garden Restaurant, and finding a big chunk of solid sewage in it ... I hold my nose, and eat around it.
      This TV Special is global news .... what could I possibly say to the average person that would clear the Name of God, that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, NOT THE TELEVISION PROGRAM, has corrupted by its Pharisaic policies that have real world consequences?
      The exact same thing happened in ancient Israel, and a system that God blessed and supported for a thousand years and more was abandoned by God.
      The exact same thing.
       
       
       
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      CAN A PERSON ... OR SHOULD A PERSON . BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED IN ABSTENSIA?
      Here is the situation .....  a person REPORTED to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses is accused, and NOT convicted ( ... because he is a fugitive from Justice ...) .....

      Apparently he was at one time in a "Position Of Authority", which possibly alludes to his being an  "Elder", and he may have relocated to another State or even another Country. Possibly using an alias.
      The  various Congregation Elders cannot find him, the Society cannot find him, and the U.S. Marshal's Service cannot find him.
      Not having any indication to the contrary ... at least from the information given in the pseudo-Wanted Poster shown above, he is possibly still officially one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
      Whether he is or not, his bad example raises an interesting  aspect of trying to figure out how the disfellowshipping "system" protocol actually works.
      Can any of the Congregations  he went to disfellowship him without his being present  to answer charges ?
      ... and SHOULD he be?
       
    • By Srecko Sostar
      Watchtower religion has some terminology and wording that not existing in Holy Scriptures text. That is the case with word Disassociation. This word is impossible to find in Bible. 
      Disassociation
      Watch Tower Publications Index 1986-2018
      meaning of term: od 142: 
      30 The term “disassociation” applies to the action taken by a person who is a baptized member of the congregation but deliberately repudiates his Christian standing by stating that he no longer wants to be recognized as, or known as, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Or he might renounce his place in the Christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of a secular organization that has objectives contrary to Bible teachings and therefore is under judgment by Jehovah God.—
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. If you going to read this two Bible verses you will find that there is nothing about JW member who decide not to be member of JWorg any more. JW (WT GB) policy about people who stopped to be JW member is Artificial rule imposed by WT leaders. 
      It is interesting how WT explanation is that disassociated person in fact "shunning" JW bros and sis and congregation. It is good to notice how person who left JWorg are not shunning people who stay to be JW members. Many ex JW members are ready to give smile and greetings to JW when they met them on the street, or to go for a glass of drink with them. If some do "shun" :))) it is for/to those JW who have orthodox and corporative characters, who are fanatics and purposely blind. Such disassociated ones are decided to separate self from WT Corporation and doctrines that are questionable or wrong. 
       
       
       
       
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
      I was a teenager in the 60's,  and I had a good friend that on Scout camping trips I introduced to the Truth, and I was there in NYC at Yankee Stadium when he was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witness. He was a true "straight arrow", and pioneered, always dressed immaculately, and eventually over the years became an Elder.
      One night, at an Elder's Meeting, he announced to the other Elders that he was Jesus Christ, and that his mother was the virgin Mary, and of course he was disfellowshipped.
      He spent several years in private mental institutions until his insurance money ran out, then in a State institution for several years.
      He called me up, and told me the story, and I told him I was the Great Turtleman, and every November, before I hibernated, I rose from the swamp and gave toys to all the good little boys and girls.  I was just pulling his leg, but he was dead serious.
      Later, he was in England, while his wife was trying without success to get him to take his medications, and fell over a balcony at Heathrow Airport and got killed.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      from 2016 the year that they started the return to Jehovah brochure.
    • By Jack Ryan
      a heartbreaking video has emerged online showing how far reaching and deeply ingrained this shunning policy is; a video showing JehovahÂ’s Witnesses clapping in applause as a little girl announces she is shunning her own sister.
      Little Melody, and the sister she doesnÂ’t have.
      The incident appears to take place at one of this years Watchtower conventions. The video was posted on youtube by the girls parents, apprently eager to share with the world how they had trained one of their children to pretend her sister didnÂ’t exist purely on the basis of religious dogma.
      The video was comment-protected once viewers began expressing concern and displeasure at what they saw, but at the time of writing the video itself is still live and can be viewed below on the family’s youtube page. (EDIT 11/09/2017 – The video has been removed, but we have linked to an alternate site which has a copy)

      t shows a little girl called Melody. She is ten years old, and was apparently baptised when she was 9. This means that Melody is now committed to the religion for life, and will be shunned if she ever leaves, or “unrepentantly” breaks any of its vast array of detailed rules.
      During the interview, Melody explains that she has a sister who was “disfellowshipped,” which is the Witness term for one who is excommunicated; someone who was thrown out of the faith rather than leaving of their own accord. We are not told the reason for the disfellowshipping, but one can be subjected to it for a wide range of reasons such as pre-marital sex, celebrating Christmas or birthdays, voting, taking a blood transfusion, joining the military, or simply questioning any of the doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      Melody states that her sister was trying to contact her, and asking her to stay in contact despite Watchtower decreeing that she be shunned. Remember, MelodyÂ’s sister has probably lost all her family and friends at this point; everyone she ever knew and loved.
      Melody admits that she misses and loves her sister, but states that she was afraid that if she didnÂ’t cut her sister off completely, she might be tempted to keep some form of relationship going. Thus, she has decided to shun her completely, as Watchtower demands. She claims that this was to protect her relationship with Jehovah.
      The audience of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses watching this announcement applaud.

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    • By Jack Ryan
      This comes from the final talk at the Birmingham, AL Convention. Herd talks kind of low and there is some background noise, so here is a transcript starting at about 1:25.
      I thought this was interesting because it doesn't appear to be in the talk outline. Admittedly, I just skimmed through the outline quickly, so it might be in there. Either way, there is something twisted about comparing the shunning of children to casting out demons from heaven.
      Edit: For those wondering, this talk is from August 5. The part before when the transcript starts is Herd talking about King Asa removing his grandmother from her position.
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The Supreme Court of Canada Thursday heard arguments in a fight over a church’s “shunning” practice, and said it would release a ruling later, but the congregation involved and several other groups argued that the justices had no right to even take part in the fight.
      The fight is between Randy Wall, a real estate agent, and the Highwood congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in Calgary.
      Wall was expelled from the congregation for getting drunk and not be properly repentant, court records said. He pursued a church appeals process, unsuccessfully, then went to court because he said the church’s “shunning,” that is, practice of not associating with him in any way, hurt his business.
      He explained his two occasions of drunkenness related to “the previous expulsion by the congregation of his 15-year-old daughter.”
      A lower court opinion explained, “Even though the daughter was a dependent child living at home, it was a mandatory church edict that the entire family shun aspects of their relationship with her. The respondent said the edicts of the church pressured the family to evict their daughter from the family home. This led to … much distress in the family.”
      The “much distress” eventually resulted in his drunkenness, Wall said.
      See the WND Superstore’s collection of Bibles, including the stunning 1599 Geneva Bible.
      Wall submitted to the court arguments that about half his client base, members of various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations, then refused to conduct business with him. He alleged the “disfellowship had an economic impact on the respondent.”
      During high court arguments Thursday, the congregation asked the justices to say that congregations are immune to such claims in the judicial system.
      The lower courts had ruled that the courts could play a role in determining if, and when, such circumstances rise to the level of violating civil rights or injuring a “disfellowshipped” party.
      The rulings from the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Alberta Court of Appeals said Wall’s case was subject to secular court jurisdiction.
      A multitude of religious and political organizations joined with the congregation in arguing that the Canada’s courts should not be involved.
      The Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms said in a filing, “The wish or desire of one person to associate with an unwilling person (or an unwilling group) is not a legal right of any kind. For a court, or the government, to support such a ‘right’ violates the right of self-determination of the unwilling parties.”
      Previous case law has confirmed the ability of religious or private voluntary groups to govern themselves and dictate who can be a member.
      But previously rulings also reveal there is room for the court system to intervene when the question is one of property or civil rights.
      The Association for Reformed Political Action, described the case as having “profound implications for the separation of church and state.”
      Its position is that the court should keep hands off the argument.
      “Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.”
      John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said, “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.”
      He continued, “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.”
      The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the fight was about more than ecclesiastical rules.
      “Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.”
      The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.”
      The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged.
      “Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”
       
       
    • By The Librarian
      OTTAWA -- The Supreme Court of Canada says a Jehovah's Witness who was expelled from his Calgary congregation cannot take his case to a judge.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , the high court says the Alberta Court of Queen's Bench has no jurisdiction to review the congregation's decision to shun Randy Wall over alleged drunkenness and verbal abuse. Several religious organizations took an active interest in the case, given questions about the degree to which the courts can review such decisions by faith-based bodies.
      Wall, an independent realtor, was summoned in 2014 to appear before the judicial committee of the Highwood Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, a four-person panel of elders.
      He admitted to two episodes of drunkenness and, on one of those occasions, verbally abusing his wife -- wrongdoing he attributed to family stress over the earlier expulsion of his 15-year old daughter from the congregation.
      The judicial committee told Wall that he, too, would be expelled because he was not sufficiently repentant.

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    • By Jack Ryan
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Updated 6:11 p.m. ET Feb. 16, 2018 Keego Harbor Â— A quiet residential street became a horrific crime scene Friday with news that four people — a couple and their adult children — died in what police are describing as a triple murder-suicide.

      By late afternoon, some yellow police crime scene tape remained around the two-story wood frame bungalow in the 2300 block of Cass Lake Road where police were sent about 8:10 a.m. on a welfare check after a relative became worried about the family, Keego Harbor Police Chief John Fitzgerald said.
      One of four bodies is removed from the home of the 2300 block of Cass Lake Road. (Photo: Clarence Tabb Jr., The Detroit News)
      “A relative had concerns and asked us to look into it,” said Fitzgerald. “It’s tragic and our thoughts and prayers are with the family.”
      Inside the house officers found four bodies who neighbors identified as Daniel Stuart, 47, his wife, Lauren, 45, and their children, Bethany, 24, and Steven, 27.
      Fitzgerald said the “perpetrator” was among the dead but would not provide details other than to stress “we think we know what happened here and there is no danger to neighbors.”
      Fitzgerald said police have recovered what is believed to be the murder weapon but would not elaborate. He said all the deaths remain under investigation.
      Keego Harbor Police Chief John Fitzgerald briefs the media on the murder-suicide. (Photo: Clarence Tabb Jr., The Detroit News)
      Neighbors John and Jackie Tristani said they awoke Friday to learn police were outside the victimsÂ’ home.
      “My son said police were repeatedly calling out ‘Lauren, come outside,’ " said John Tristani. “When she didn’t respond they (police) went inside. A few minutes later, they came back outside, shaking their heads.”
      Tristani said he had been watching television late Thursday night and never heard anything from the Stuarts' home.
      Sources close to the investigation said the family pet, a dog, was also slain by the killer. Investigators also found a note which may help explain what led up to the deaths. They would not discuss its contents.
      The deaths puzzle the Tristanis, who knew Lauren Stuart as a “hard-working” neighbor who could often be seen working in her yard and remodeled the house largely on her own.
      “She would often come over and borrow tools – a saw, a pickaxe – whatever,” said Tristani. “She was always doing something.”
      The Tristanis said in one of their first meetings with Lauren Stuart a few years ago she attempted to “recruit” them into the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      “I said we were Catholics and weren’t interested,” he said. “She accepted the answer and it was the end of that.”
      Lauren Stuart worked at an area gym, he said, and her husband was involved in some form of medical business in the Ann Arbor area.
      Darlene and Dennis Buck, who live a block away on Cass Lake Road, said they were enroute home from a trip to northern Michigan when they learned of the murder-suicide.
      “We have lived here since ’74 and nothing like this has ever happened in our neighborhood — not even close,” said Darlene Buck.
      Jackie Tristani said she found it all “scary” – not just the deaths but that something might have been going on in a neighbor’s home without her knowledge. She had tried to get Bethany a job at her workplace and her son knew both Bethany and Steven. There was never any mention or indication of trouble inside the home, she said.
      “I would hope that if there was a problem inside there someone would have reached out, we would have tried to help,” she said, her voice quaking. “Maybe we could have done something.
      “But you never really know everything there is about your neighbors, do you?”

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    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      If a Brother or Sister in good standing in the Congregation goes into the hospital, and agrees to a whole blood transfusion, and dies anyway, can they be disfellowshipped post mortem, and what about the funeral arrangements?  ( I have heard of this being done, but never explained....)
      Can they have a funeral at the Kingdom Hall?
      Let's say a Brother or Sister in good standing in the Congregation  goes berserk, and commits some crime, and either dies by misadventure, or gets shot by police ....
      Can they have a funeral at the Kingdom Hall?
      Considering such questions is like a submarine on the surface, at night, in the fog .... firing torpedoes randomly into the darkness, to see what lights up.
      .... sometimes survival depends on having the right answer about "What is out there?".
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      Which Pill Would We Take ..... The Red Pill? .... or the Blue Pill?
      In the political world, more and more people are rejecting "Fake News" as provided by CNN (Clinton News Network), ABC (All 'bout Clinton) and NBC (Nothin' but Clinton), etc., and are seeking the truth about what they are being told ..... wherever it may be found.
      Today John Stossel had an article about this on Foxnews which is incredibly important ... not only for the political ramifications ... but every manner of philosophical thought ....  and our very view of how the Universe works, and what "makes it tick".
      If you have seen the movie "The Matrix" .... a MUST SEE movie .... you already know the common expression "Red Pill? Blue Pill?".
      If you don't ... YOU SHOULD. 
      The concept behind the expression is incredibly important ... as to whether we live in and artificial fantasy construct world ... or a world of what is actually REAL.
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      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Oh ... and if you have not seen it .... get a copy of the movie, so you will actually get a "feel" for the depth of the now commonly understood  idiomatic expression.
      (For those in Rio Linda, that has nothing to do with sex, it has to do with basic understanding .....)
      Grok?
       
       
       
       
       
    • By Witness
      “JehovahÂ’s Witness kids grow up knowing that if they ever mess up, their parents will leave them — and thatÂ’s scary,” Sawyer, now 38, said in a recent interview from her home in Pascagoula, Miss. “The shunning is supposed to make us miss them so much that weÂ’ll come back. Â… It didnÂ’t work.”
      Sawyer and many others like her are now denouncing the church's shunning practices in the wake of a recent murder-suicide in Keego Harbor that killed a family of four ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses who were ostracized after leaving the faith. The deaths sparked outrage among scores of ex-JWs nationwide who took to Facebook, online forums, blogs and YouTube, arguing the tragedy highlights a pervasive yet rarely-publicized problem within the church: Shunning is pushing the most vulnerable people over the edge, they say, and tearing families apart.
      In the Michigan case, a distraught mother shot and killed her husband, her two grown children and herself in their Keego Harbor home, shocking the small and quiet Oakland County community.
      The shooter was Lauren Stuart, a part-time model and personal trainer who struggled with depression and spent much of her time working on her house, her friends say. She and her husband, Daniel Stuart, 47, left the JW faith more than a decade ago over doctrinal and social issues. Among them was their desire to send their kids to college, which many ex-JWs say is frowned upon by the church and viewed as spiritually dangerous.
      “University and college campuses are notorious for bad behavior — drug and alcohol abuse, immorality, cheating, hazing, and the list goes on,” a 2005 article in the Watchtower, the church's official publication, stated.
      But the Stuarts sent both their kids to college: Steven, 27, excelled in computers, just like his father, who was a data solutions architect for the University of Michigan Medical School. Bethany, 24, thrived in art and graphic design.  After the parents left the faith, the Stuarts were ostracized by the Kingdom Hall — the churches where Jehovah's Witnesses worship — community in Union Lake and their families, friends said.
      Lauren Stuart, whose mother died of cancer when she was 12, struggled with mental illness that went untreated; isolation and fears that the end was near, said friends and officials familiar with the case. One friend who requested anonymity said she believes the killing was the result of depression, not religion.
      "This is a tragedy that has to do with a disease. Depression is so prevalent, and when it goes untreated this is what happens," the friend said. "She needed medical help."
      Longtime family friend Joyce Taylor believes depression, shunning and religion-based doomsday fears all played a role. She said that about six weeks before the killings, Lauren started getting religiously preoccupied and telling her "'It's the end times, I know it is.'"

      Weeks later, Taylor saw her friend again. Lauren had a vacant look in her eyes. She was emotionally distressed.
      A week later, with her home decorated for Valentine's Day, Lauren Stuart killed her family. She left behind a suicide note.
      "She said in the suicide note that she felt that by killing them it was the only way to save them," recalled Taylor, who said police let her read the letter. "She said she's sorry that she has to do this, but it was the only way to save them all." 
      Taylor, a former Jehovah's Witness herself who left the faith in 1986, explained: "Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you die on this side of Armageddon, you'll be resurrected in paradise."
      In Lauren Stuart's case, Taylor believes her friend never deprogrammed after leaving the church — a state she describes as  "physically out, but mentally in." She believes that Lauren's indoctrinated doomsday fears never left her, and that the shunning helped push her over the edge.
      Had she not been excommunicated by her tight-knit community that was once her entire support system — left with no one to share her fears with — Lauren Stuart may not have done what she did, Taylor believes.
      "People do things when they are desperate," Taylor said. "And that was an extreme, desperate act."
      Shunning "can lead to great trauma among people because the Jehovah's Witnesses are a very tight-knit community," said Mathew Schmalz, a religious studies associate professor at the College of Holy Cross in Worcester, Mass.
      "If you're separated out, you're really left to your own devices in ways that are very challenging and very painful," Schmalz said. "Once you leave a group that's been your whole life — letting that go is a kind of death."
      Police have not yet disclosed details about the death of the Stuart family besides calling it a murder-suicide.
      The tragedy has emboldened many once-quiet ex-JWs to speak up. Many say they suffered quietly on their own for years until they discovered an online community full of isolated, ostracized people like themselves — people who had lost someone to suicide or attempted suicide themselves because their families, friends and church community had written them off for making mistakes, for being human. 
      The church calls it being "disfellowshipped." Members can return if they repent, change the behavior and prove themselves worthy of being reinstated. But unless or until that happens, members are encouraged to avoid the sinners, especially those who leave the faith.
      Mothers go years, even decades, without talking to their children. Siblings write off siblings. Friends shun friends.
      An estimated 70,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses are disfellowshipped every year — roughly 1% of the church’s total population, according to data published by the Watchtower. Their names are published at local Kingdom Halls. Of those, two-thirds never return.
      Within a faith representing 8.4 million people worldwide, however, many members believe the religion is pure, good and loving. Those who are speaking against it, current members argue, are disgruntled and angry people who have an ax to grind because they were disfellowshipped. Or, they are lost souls who have misinterpreted the meaning and love behind the faith. Members say they believe the shunning accusations are exaggerated and that the suicides are often more about mental illness than ostracism.
      The departed disagree.  
      In the world of ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses, they maintain, the shunned are considered dead to their families, just like the suicide victims. 
      These are their stories:
      ‘A dangerous cult’
      It was a difficult conversation to wrap her 8-year-old brain around.
      “‘You know your sister was being bad, right?’“ Sawyer recalled her mother telling her after her sister's suicide.
      “ ‘And what she did was stupid, right?’ … To take your own life is very wrong,' " the mother continued.
      “I didn’t understand what was going on … and I said, ‘Oh. OK,,’ “ recalled Sawyer. “In my 8-year-old brain I was thinking, ‘When I mess up, my mom’s going to hate me.’ "
      And so began her painful journey with the Jehovah’s Witness faith, the religion she was born into and grew up in in Pascagoula, Miss., where her fears of abandonment took hold at the age of 8. 
      Sawyer believes the shunning drove her sister to suicide. After the church disfellowshipped her for getting engaged to a non-JW, the fiancé left her sister, who was thrown into depression. Her sister tried turning to her mother for consolation, but her mom would read scripture and tell her, "until you start acting right, you’re going to have these bad things happen to you.“
      Bad things happened to Sawyer, too. At 30, she sought a divorce from her husband because he was abusive and cheating on her, she said. But the church elders and family pressured her to save her marriage.
      “I showed them the holes in my walls,” Sawyer said, referring to the damage her ex-husband did to the home during fights. “They told me to pray more … and sent me back home to him.”
      Sawyer took up smoking to handle the stress, which got her disfellowshipped because smoking is not allowed. She also went through with the divorce. She ended up losing her home to foreclosure and turned to her mother for help as she had two children to raise.

        Her mother took her in temporarily, but when the church elders found out, they threatened to disfellowship Sawyer’s mother — who let the grandkids stay, but not the daughter. 
      Sawyer ended up homeless for six months, living out of her car in a community college parking lot. She landed on her feet with the help of a student loan. She got an apartment, a job as a hospice nurse and her children — now 10 and 18 — back. She found herself, but lost her family along the way.
      Her mother doesnÂ’t speak to her; she said she canÂ’t recall the last time they spoke.
      Her sister in Alabama hasnÂ’t spoken to her since Sawyer got divorced in 2010.
      “She was on my porch, with my parents … My sister looked at me and said, ‘You’re abandoning me just like Donna did’ And left. And that's the last thing she ever said to me."
      Sawyer has kept silent about her pain for decades.
      “This is a dangerous cult,” she said of her former religion. “It’s important for people to realize —  this is serious.” 
      Read the rest of the story here:

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