Why won't they announce the reason for disfellowshipping or disassociation?

[Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης]

Hi I would like to disassociate my self from Jehovah witnesses but I would like also my brothers and sisters to know the reason why. Is it scriptural to hide this information from the congregation? I am certain that some sisters who dislike me will find opportunity to gossip with lies behind my back and my ex brothers will see me like a monster when in reality I make one step closer to my creator by establishing a new and direct connection to him like he wants ... without human mediators.

[JW Insider]

I looked at several of your posts and some of them appear to take outdated issues, or overblown issues, and treat them as if they are currently having a direct effect on people. I think Melinda Mills pointed out that you were making an issue out of a prior incorrect view on the exact definition of porneia. But this issue would usually only have been of a practical concern for a few months before the wrong idea was corrected. (Edited to add: the issue arising from an improper understanding had been there for many years, but I'm told that it was rarely invoked, and a big issue was only being made out this for a few months, and that it was the very raising of the issue that also helped raise concerns about changing the practice.) Similar issue with being disfellowshipped over transplanted organs. I had specifically asked a person who would have known about all the decisions about disfellowshipping over that issue, and he told me it only happened a couple of times. (There is a tendency to be lenient when a person is suffering and might die from a rejection anyway. Also there was a strong belief in those days that even if a blood transfusion was not necessary for an organ transplant, that you had to agree to the possibility of accepting one, which is still a serious offense.)

At any rate, what is the rush to disassociate? Can you not find love in the brotherhood? Do you personally have to think of humans as your "mediators"? I believe there is room for a lot more diversity of thought, as long as you can keep a clean conscience, and avoid causing divisions by insisting on a view that others find unacceptable. Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted. We are not here strictly for a set of doctrines, we are here to find opportunities to love and care for our friends, relatives, family, and extend that same love to those related to us in the faith (our spiritual brothers and sisters). 

 

[Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης]

JW Insider I would appreciate a honest answer to my question: where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

It is rude to transfer my question to a place deliberately named "Parking Lot for Controversial Posts" in order to degrade and hide my question from the public. This place (Parking Lot) could have a serious name like "Controversial questions".

As for my previous questions you are free to go and comment to each one of them, not here. If you want to make a point... I would like to make a point too. I cannot belong to a religion or organization, that put harsh unscriptural rules just for the fun of it and later to change this rules like nothing have happened! Yes some people have died because of this rules... and I am referring to the religious prohibit of organ transplants inside the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses, that you say " it only happened a couple of times". Even if one person died because of the shameful rules of the Governing Body.. the GB is guilty of murder. You say " Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted".I say I cannot be part of a religious circus that chanches opppinions just like the wind blows, full of hatred to their own members who regret their sins, come back for acceptance, and being treated with  disrespect and being kept disfellowshipped for a year or two according to the appetite of local elders and overseers. How do you think Jesus is feeling seeing his little shipp treated like this? of course this is a retorical question. I would preffer an answer to my initial question.

[John Houston]

Why you want this is your business, not ours. If any one will gossip then they are no better than you, really. Your beef was the same I had with Jehovah himself for the death of my father because the system had not come yet. I was so pissed. But why was I angry? My father erased his debt of sin by his death and will awaken at the hearing of Christ voice during the resurrection. Also why would I want him to extend his life here, suffering with cancer, wasting away in pain truly not living, when Jehovah has promised a life so much better. Think of what you are saying. What mediators? They are just guides, showing us that path Jesus told us to take that would lead to eternal life. I want to stay on it because in Jehovah's love I will be able to see both of my parents again.

 When Jesus choose the apostle's, they were not perfect, fussing and arguing most of the time. Peter was headstrong thinking he was all that, but when the stick hit the fire, he denied his Lord and Master 3 times, how do you feel he felt when he caught eye to eye contact with Jesus when that cock crowed?

 Those who have the responsibility the same as those apostle's then, have to watch over us, make mistakes do we grumble, point out those mistakes and cry foul wanting to leave? Leave where? Their mistakes points us to what better place? Judas betrayed Jesus, did the others leave due to his mistake? Peter denied Jesus, did the others deny him when Jesus himself forgave him and Peter went on to serve faithfully till his death?  And when the Gentiles became part of the congregation, there were many new changes, for Paul had to set standards to meeting arrangements. As we grow, diverse with different cultures and continue to love one another as a true brotherhood, we will find we will change. If God's Word is alive should not his organization be also, vibrant with ones different but the same in our worship of Jehovah? 

Would not want you to go based on what you are saying, but do not stay either. Make up your mind and heart, it is Jehovah we are serving, so should you. And it's in his love we want to be. That is the road that leads to life. Any other will not get you there. It's a tributary leading off into destruction. I know been there and back. I can said from first hand experience. So I call to you, as I have. Read your Bible, ask the questions, pray about it, humble yourself to Jehovah's way, not our own way. That's what Satan did, right? Be like Paul and reason from the scriptures. Most of the questions you have will go away, for you will have answered them before you speak them out loud! Have a good evening my friend!

[JW Insider]

8 hours ago, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

JW Insider I would appreciate a honest answer to my question: where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

It is rude to transfer my question to a place deliberately named "Parking Lot for Controversial Posts" in order to degrade and hide my question from the public. This place (Parking Lot) could have a serious name like "Controversial questions".

@Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης,

I do not know any specifics of your particular situation or the situation in your congregation. No matter what the case, Jehovah knows your heart, and no humans or organization actually holds the final word of judgment. What I can say is that I'm aware of why there was a time when we once announced the reasons for disfellowshipping or disassociation. Then it turned into "conduct unbecoming a Christian" or "so-and-so no longer wishes to be associated . . . " often with a related talk given within a week or so, designed to remind the congregation of the need to remain morally clean, and the specific worldly or immoral elements the congregation had shown vulnerability to were usually emphasized. 

It should be obvious why this has changed. We do not wish to embarrass the person over a specific wrong or reason that they may later wish the congregation had no specific knowledge about. Most persons disfellowshipped are somewhere in a process of repentance. The elders do not believe the process is ever perfect, but they especially do not want to create a situation where a person might regret having everyone else know what weaknesses they overcame. There are issues of fairness and justice to consider when a congregation may know all about one party in a wrongdoing but nothing about a second party to the same wrongdoing.

I don't think I need to spell out all the ways that one person may be hurt more deeply due to the unfairness of allowing a different level of information for two different persons where the wrongdoing may have been equal. The other side of that coin, is the case where two persons were involved in the same wrongdoing, but one person was much guiltier than the other, yet the announcement sounds pretty much the same for both. The best solution has appeared to be the minimization of all announcements, allowing persons to keep more privacy and dignity.

Perhaps in your case, you wish to "give a witness" about why you are choosing to disassociate. Because you have been a Witness, your motivation is understandable, but you are asking for an opportunity to explain yourself in ways that might be considered detrimental to the spiritual well-being of the congregation. The elders are there to take care of the spiritual interests of the whole congregation. Most persons do not join a Christian congregation to get a sermon from someone who disagrees with the teachings that they joined to hear more about. You don't go to a meeting to have your belief system torn down, but to be built up. If you feel you have important points to make, why not write a book, or write to elders, or branch personnel, or go on the Internet, so that the congregation in general will have a choice as to what kind of information they risk exposing themselves to.

 

 

[Manuel Boyet Enicola]

Is "knowing the reason" for being disfellowshipped or disassociated really that important to the public? Why not ask the person involved lest an announcement may violate his/her privacy?  Just wondering what is the true motive of this post? 

[Giannis Diamantis]

On 3/18/2016 at 9:08 AM, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

 Just wondering what is the true motive of this post?

I was hoping to hear your opinions based on the scriptures...
In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.
In the Christian congregation the same.
Jehovah's witnesses are Christians or not?
Jehovah's witnesses follow the scriptures or not?

I want to know before I disassociate my self from JW.
the elders don't like my questions.
can you help?

[Evacuated]

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.
In the Christian congregation the same.

It is not possible to support these statements with fact.

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

Jehovah's witnesses are Christians or not?
Jehovah's witnesses follow the scriptures or not?

Yes to both. However, with regard to following scripture, in the spirit of Apollos. Acts 18:24-28.

On 3/17/2016 at 18:38, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

Where is the scriptural proof of a requirement to indiscriminately publicize the reason for disfellowshipping or dissasociation?

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

the elders don't like my questions.

Have your elders used 2Tim.2:23 or Titus 3:9 to support their dislike for your questions? Have they attempted to provide answers to them?. I suspect even if they have, you have not been satisfied, as your many posts in this forum seem to indicate.

Why not apply the principle in Ps.4:4? It's all about attitude really. (Compare Ph. 3:15, the principle, not the immediate subject matter).

I recommend the advice provided by JW Insider quoted below:

On 3/17/2016 at 16:48, JW Insider said:

At any rate, what is the rush to disassociate? Can you not find love in the brotherhood? Do you personally have to think of humans as your "mediators"? I believe there is room for a lot more diversity of thought, as long as you can keep a clean conscience, and avoid causing divisions by insisting on a view that others find unacceptable. Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted. We are not here strictly for a set of doctrines, we are here to find opportunities to love and care for our friends, relatives, family, and extend that same love to those related to us in the faith (our spiritual brothers and sisters).

I would also add that the work of preaching the good news of Jehovah's established kingdom in the hands of His anointed king, Christ Jesus, should be the main focus of our efforts at this time. I would add that to the list of activities in JW Insider's comment above.

For many honest-hearted ones, getting to know Jehovah and his son Jesus, learning about the ransom, the kingdom, the truth about life, death, sin, getting free from the deceptive domination of Satan in their lives, and coming into association with the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's people, is the best thing thing that could ever happen to them. And, if media reports are anything to go by, it appears that there are greater opportunities in your country to share the good news of the kingdom than many others of us have at this time.

I do hope you can resolve your difficulties, if not your questions.

Do you have this saying?

Ας μην καίμε τα χλωρά μαζί με τα ξερά. 

[Giannis Diamantis]

1.The Elders in my area are old and uneducated. (but I feel they don't like disagreements anyway)
2. I found disturbing cases on the Internet and I feel same rules will be applied to me too (if you question you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy).
3.I feel that I don't have rights. of course Ι will never go to the room alone only with elders. I see in the scriptures that it is my Christian right to ask for a public trial. please note that I don't ask the same for other cases - only for my case (maybe child molesters want secrecy so they can make it again in other congregations).
 

 

 

[Evacuated]

 

3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

1.The Elders in my area are old and uneducated. (but I feel they don't like disagreements anyway)

All the more reason to apply the scriptures I suggested.

3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

2. I found disturbing cases on the Internet and I feel same rules will be applied to me too (if you question you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy).

You cannot find the true picture from anecdotal evidence.

4 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

3.I feel that I don't have rights. of course Ι will never go to the room alone only with elders. I see in the scriptures that it is my Christian right to ask for a public trial. please note that I don't ask the same for other cases - only for my case (maybe child molesters want secrecy so they can make it again in other congregations).

The Awake article is interesting but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. I am not sure it supports the idea that  " In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone."  (my italics). I would need more specific examples for that conclusion. The statements in the article are not supported by examples.

What scriptures give you the Christian right to a "public trial"? And, if permissible, may I ask, what have you done to require such a trial?

[Giannis Diamantis]

 

On 3/22/2016 at 11:49 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

may I ask, what have you done to require such a trial?

I already told you... I ask many questions and some don't like this... and I know since the trials are in secret anything bad can happen to me even disfellowshipping for apostasy. Who will know the real facts behind closed doors?
I don't trust the elders or the organization.... And your answers make me even more suspicious.

in a previous question I gave you a fact and you all pretend you haven't saw.
" In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance".
So the Elders punish him unscripturally  for three years in advance and the Governing Body found it very wise to advertise it in the watchtower ! 
How can I trust after that the Elders or the Governing Body ??????????????

On 3/22/2016 at 11:51 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

Giannis: In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.

Eoin: It is not possible to support these statements with fact.

 

                     Well I gave you the quote from the Awake! magazine (Jan 22, 1981, p17) and you pretend you haven't read it: "there was no question about the trials being public"!
                    Also from the epistles of Paul and others we learn all the dirty secrets of brothers in the congregations. Note that the first Christians didn't have a Governing Body nor send their letters in secrecy. Everybody had the right to a fair public trial... Like all the servants of Jehovah in Israel before them .... otherwise Paul wouldn't have the opportunity to talk about something they didn't like when he came to the synagogues of Greece. But they herd him first and later they rejected him!
why I don't have the same right?
                  Hear me first and later judge me !
                  Do you have something to be afraid of?
                  Do you have something to be ashamed of?
 

[Evacuated]

Giannis 

You sound frustrated, Maybe its the language that is insufficient.

Anyway, apologies if I misunderstand you due to that.

With regard to the latest points you raise.

Giannis: In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.

I find this statement too extreme. The Awake you quote is interesting, but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. 

Obviously, Israel was a sovereign state with a judiciary, as is the USA. So there are legitimate comparisons in their legal systems, the right to public trial being one of them. However that provision does not substantiate your statement. In fact, even today there are situations when the public is excluded from legal procedures.

But, as Paul made clear in Rom 13, currently "Caesar" or the state "bears the sword" and serves as Gods's minister for good or bad toward his servants. We are all relatively subject to Caesar's laws and, as far as secular matters are concerned, generally, public trial is still a provision of that system should we fall foul of the law or indeed be a victim of crime.

So you do have the right to a public trial today..in "Cesar's" courts.

However, the Christian congregation is a spiritual arrangement and actually is not constituted as a sovereign state in the way of ancient Israel or the modern USA.

Elders have a responsibility to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean, and also to keep Jehovah's name and the name of His Son clear of reproach. This will necessarily mean dealing with wrongdoers, making assessments regarding wrong conduct, taking action to clear out badness from the congregation, and helping repentant ones regain spiritual health. At times, this may include mediation between congregation members to maintain peace in the congregation. @JW Insider has adequately outlined reasons for confidentiality in an earlier post in this thread. 

Where the breaking of Cesar's law is a component of errant behaviour amongst congregation members, then victims are completely at liberty to invoke the provisions of that system (bearing in mind Paul's counsel at 1 Cor. 6:6-8). Indeed, there may well be a legal obligation to refer such matters to the one "that bears the sword".

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

you all pretend you haven't saw.
" In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance".

Is this the account you refer to?

To take a true-life illustration of recent months: A certain youth professed to be a Christian minister. Yet he was carrying on homosexual acts with professed friends of his. When he found it expedient to travel to another part of the country he missed his homosexual friends. So he wrote one of them threatening to expose him if he did not come to where he lived so that they could continue their homosexual relations. But it was not long before this young professed Christian made some overt acts that exposed him and today he is under a ban of at least three years from any Christian congregation of Jehovah’s people.
 

This article discussed the hardening power of a practice of sin and the account illustrates the lengths a person could go to and the consequence when following such a course. I can't see any reason why further explanation would be required here, other than saying that the reference is 46 years old. Hopefully, that person learned, albeit the hard way (1Cor.5:5, 13), and has since been restored to the congregation. 1 Cor 6:9-10.

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

why I don't have the same right?

I think @JW Insider has indicated above how you could go about making your grievances public. You seem to have already embarked on this course anyway.

I do hope you can resolve your issues without cutting yourself off.