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Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης

Why won't they announce the reason for disfellowshipping or disassociation?

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Space Merchant -
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Hi I would like to disassociate my self from Jehovah witnesses but I would like also my brothers and sisters to know the reason why. Is it scriptural to hide this information from the congregation? I am certain that some sisters who dislike me will find opportunity to gossip with lies behind my back and my ex brothers will see me like a monster when in reality I make one step closer to my creator by establishing a new and direct connection to him like he wants ... without human mediators.

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I looked at several of your posts and some of them appear to take outdated issues, or overblown issues, and treat them as if they are currently having a direct effect on people. I think Melinda Mills pointed out that you were making an issue out of a prior incorrect view on the exact definition of porneia. But this issue would usually only have been of a practical concern for a few months before the wrong idea was corrected. (Edited to add: the issue arising from an improper understanding had been there for many years, but I'm told that it was rarely invoked, and a big issue was only being made out this for a few months, and that it was the very raising of the issue that also helped raise concerns about changing the practice.) Similar issue with being disfellowshipped over transplanted organs. I had specifically asked a person who would have known about all the decisions about disfellowshipping over that issue, and he told me it only happened a couple of times. (There is a tendency to be lenient when a person is suffering and might die from a rejection anyway. Also there was a strong belief in those days that even if a blood transfusion was not necessary for an organ transplant, that you had to agree to the possibility of accepting one, which is still a serious offense.)

At any rate, what is the rush to disassociate? Can you not find love in the brotherhood? Do you personally have to think of humans as your "mediators"? I believe there is room for a lot more diversity of thought, as long as you can keep a clean conscience, and avoid causing divisions by insisting on a view that others find unacceptable. Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted. We are not here strictly for a set of doctrines, we are here to find opportunities to love and care for our friends, relatives, family, and extend that same love to those related to us in the faith (our spiritual brothers and sisters). 

 

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JW Insider I would appreciate a honest answer to my question: where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?


It is rude to transfer my question to a place deliberately named "Parking Lot for Controversial Posts" in order to degrade and hide my question from the public. This place (Parking Lot) could have a serious name like "Controversial questions".

As for my previous questions you are free to go and comment to each one of them, not here. If you want to make a point... I would like to make a point too. I cannot belong to a religion or organization, that put harsh unscriptural rules just for the fun of it and later to change this rules like nothing have happened! Yes some people have died because of this rules... and I am referring to the religious prohibit of organ transplants inside the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses, that you say " it only happened a couple of times". Even if one person died because of the shameful rules of the Governing Body.. the GB is guilty of murder. You say " Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted".I say I cannot be part of a religious circus that chanches opppinions just like the wind blows, full of hatred to their own members who regret their sins, come back for acceptance, and being treated with  disrespect and being kept disfellowshipped for a year or two according to the appetite of local elders and overseers. How do you think Jesus is feeling seeing his little shipp treated like this? of course this is a retorical question. I would preffer an answer to my initial question.

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Why you want this is your business, not ours. If any one will gossip then they are no better than you, really. Your beef was the same I had with Jehovah himself for the death of my father because the system had not come yet. I was so pissed. But why was I angry? My father erased his debt of sin by his death and will awaken at the hearing of Christ voice during the resurrection. Also why would I want him to extend his life here, suffering with cancer, wasting away in pain truly not living, when Jehovah has promised a life so much better. Think of what you are saying. What mediators? They are just guides, showing us that path Jesus told us to take that would lead to eternal life. I want to stay on it because in Jehovah's love I will be able to see both of my parents again.

 When Jesus choose the apostle's, they were not perfect, fussing and arguing most of the time. Peter was headstrong thinking he was all that, but when the stick hit the fire, he denied his Lord and Master 3 times, how do you feel he felt when he caught eye to eye contact with Jesus when that cock crowed?

 Those who have the responsibility the same as those apostle's then, have to watch over us, make mistakes do we grumble, point out those mistakes and cry foul wanting to leave? Leave where? Their mistakes points us to what better place? Judas betrayed Jesus, did the others leave due to his mistake? Peter denied Jesus, did the others deny him when Jesus himself forgave him and Peter went on to serve faithfully till his death?  And when the Gentiles became part of the congregation, there were many new changes, for Paul had to set standards to meeting arrangements. As we grow, diverse with different cultures and continue to love one another as a true brotherhood, we will find we will change. If God's Word is alive should not his organization be also, vibrant with ones different but the same in our worship of Jehovah? 

Would not want you to go based on what you are saying, but do not stay either. Make up your mind and heart, it is Jehovah we are serving, so should you. And it's in his love we want to be. That is the road that leads to life. Any other will not get you there. It's a tributary leading off into destruction. I know been there and back. I can said from first hand experience. So I call to you, as I have. Read your Bible, ask the questions, pray about it, humble yourself to Jehovah's way, not our own way. That's what Satan did, right? Be like Paul and reason from the scriptures. Most of the questions you have will go away, for you will have answered them before you speak them out loud! Have a good evening my friend!

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8 hours ago, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

JW Insider I would appreciate a honest answer to my question: where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?


It is rude to transfer my question to a place deliberately named "Parking Lot for Controversial Posts" in order to degrade and hide my question from the public. This place (Parking Lot) could have a serious name like "Controversial questions".

@Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης,

I do not know any specifics of your particular situation or the situation in your congregation. No matter what the case, Jehovah knows your heart, and no humans or organization actually holds the final word of judgment. What I can say is that I'm aware of why there was a time when we once announced the reasons for disfellowshipping or disassociation. Then it turned into "conduct unbecoming a Christian" or "so-and-so no longer wishes to be associated . . . " often with a related talk given within a week or so, designed to remind the congregation of the need to remain morally clean, and the specific worldly or immoral elements the congregation had shown vulnerability to were usually emphasized. 

It should be obvious why this has changed. We do not wish to embarrass the person over a specific wrong or reason that they may later wish the congregation had no specific knowledge about. Most persons disfellowshipped are somewhere in a process of repentance. The elders do not believe the process is ever perfect, but they especially do not want to create a situation where a person might regret having everyone else know what weaknesses they overcame. There are issues of fairness and justice to consider when a congregation may know all about one party in a wrongdoing but nothing about a second party to the same wrongdoing.

I don't think I need to spell out all the ways that one person may be hurt more deeply due to the unfairness of allowing a different level of information for two different persons where the wrongdoing may have been equal. The other side of that coin, is the case where two persons were involved in the same wrongdoing, but one person was much guiltier than the other, yet the announcement sounds pretty much the same for both. The best solution has appeared to be the minimization of all announcements, allowing persons to keep more privacy and dignity.

Perhaps in your case, you wish to "give a witness" about why you are choosing to disassociate. Because you have been a Witness, your motivation is understandable, but you are asking for an opportunity to explain yourself in ways that might be considered detrimental to the spiritual well-being of the congregation. The elders are there to take care of the spiritual interests of the whole congregation. Most persons do not join a Christian congregation to get a sermon from someone who disagrees with the teachings that they joined to hear more about. You don't go to a meeting to have your belief system torn down, but to be built up. If you feel you have important points to make, why not write a book, or write to elders, or branch personnel, or go on the Internet, so that the congregation in general will have a choice as to what kind of information they risk exposing themselves to.

 

 

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Is "knowing the reason" for being disfellowshipped or disassociated really that important to the public? Why not ask the person involved lest an announcement may violate his/her privacy?  Just wondering what is the true motive of this post? 

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On 3/18/2016 at 9:08 AM, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

 Just wondering what is the true motive of this post?

I was hoping to hear your opinions based on the scriptures...
In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.
In the Christian congregation the same.
Jehovah's witnesses are Christians or not?
Jehovah's witnesses follow the scriptures or not?

I want to know before I disassociate my self from JW.
the elders don't like my questions.
can you help?

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10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.
In the Christian congregation the same.

It is not possible to support these statements with fact.

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

Jehovah's witnesses are Christians or not?
Jehovah's witnesses follow the scriptures or not?

Yes to both. However, with regard to following scripture, in the spirit of Apollos. Acts 18:24-28.

On 3/17/2016 at 18:38, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

Where is the scriptural proof of a requirement to indiscriminately publicize the reason for disfellowshipping or dissasociation?

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

the elders don't like my questions.

Have your elders used 2Tim.2:23 or Titus 3:9 to support their dislike for your questions? Have they attempted to provide answers to them?. I suspect even if they have, you have not been satisfied, as your many posts in this forum seem to indicate.

Why not apply the principle in Ps.4:4? It's all about attitude really. (Compare Ph. 3:15, the principle, not the immediate subject matter).

I recommend the advice provided by JW Insider quoted below:

On 3/17/2016 at 16:48, JW Insider said:

At any rate, what is the rush to disassociate? Can you not find love in the brotherhood? Do you personally have to think of humans as your "mediators"? I believe there is room for a lot more diversity of thought, as long as you can keep a clean conscience, and avoid causing divisions by insisting on a view that others find unacceptable. Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted. We are not here strictly for a set of doctrines, we are here to find opportunities to love and care for our friends, relatives, family, and extend that same love to those related to us in the faith (our spiritual brothers and sisters).

I would also add that the work of preaching the good news of Jehovah's established kingdom in the hands of His anointed king, Christ Jesus, should be the main focus of our efforts at this time. I would add that to the list of activities in JW Insider's comment above.

For many honest-hearted ones, getting to know Jehovah and his son Jesus, learning about the ransom, the kingdom, the truth about life, death, sin, getting free from the deceptive domination of Satan in their lives, and coming into association with the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's people, is the best thing thing that could ever happen to them. And, if media reports are anything to go by, it appears that there are greater opportunities in your country to share the good news of the kingdom than many others of us have at this time.

I do hope you can resolve your difficulties, if not your questions.

Do you have this saying?

Ας μην καίμε τα χλωρά μαζί με τα ξερά. 

illustration.jpg

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1.The Elders in my area are old and uneducated. (but I feel they don't like disagreements anyway)
2. I found disturbing cases on the Internet and I feel same rules will be applied to me too (if you question you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy).
3.I feel that I don't have rights. of course Ι will never go to the room alone only with elders. I see in the scriptures that it is my Christian right to ask for a public trial. please note that I don't ask the same for other cases - only for my case (maybe child molesters want secrecy so they can make it again in other congregations).
 

 

 

public hearings Awake 1981 Jan 22 p.17.jpg

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3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

1.The Elders in my area are old and uneducated. (but I feel they don't like disagreements anyway)

All the more reason to apply the scriptures I suggested.

3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

2. I found disturbing cases on the Internet and I feel same rules will be applied to me too (if you question you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy).

You cannot find the true picture from anecdotal evidence.

4 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

3.I feel that I don't have rights. of course Ι will never go to the room alone only with elders. I see in the scriptures that it is my Christian right to ask for a public trial. please note that I don't ask the same for other cases - only for my case (maybe child molesters want secrecy so they can make it again in other congregations).

The Awake article is interesting but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. I am not sure it supports the idea that  " In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone."  (my italics). I would need more specific examples for that conclusion. The statements in the article are not supported by examples.

What scriptures give you the Christian right to a "public trial"? And, if permissible, may I ask, what have you done to require such a trial?

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On 3/22/2016 at 11:49 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

may I ask, what have you done to require such a trial?

I already told you... I ask many questions and some don't like this... and I know since the trials are in secret anything bad can happen to me even disfellowshipping for apostasy. Who will know the real facts behind closed doors?
I don't trust the elders or the organization.... And your answers make me even more suspicious.

in a previous question I gave you a fact and you all pretend you haven't saw.
" In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance".
So the Elders punish him unscripturally  for three years in advance and the Governing Body found it very wise to advertise it in the watchtower ! 
How can I trust after that the Elders or the Governing Body ??????????????

On 3/22/2016 at 11:51 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

Giannis: In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.

Eoin: It is not possible to support these statements with fact.

 

                     Well I gave you the quote from the Awake! magazine (Jan 22, 1981, p17) and you pretend you haven't read it: "there was no question about the trials being public"!
                    Also from the epistles of Paul and others we learn all the dirty secrets of brothers in the congregations. Note that the first Christians didn't have a Governing Body nor send their letters in secrecy. Everybody had the right to a fair public trial... Like all the servants of Jehovah in Israel before them .... otherwise Paul wouldn't have the opportunity to talk about something they didn't like when he came to the synagogues of Greece. But they herd him first and later they rejected him!
why I don't have the same right?
                  Hear me first and later judge me !
                  Do you have something to be afraid of?
                  Do you have something to be ashamed of?

 

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Giannis 

You sound frustrated, Maybe its the language that is insufficient.

Anyway, apologies if I misunderstand you due to that.

With regard to the latest points you raise.

Giannis: In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.

I find this statement too extreme. The Awake you quote is interesting, but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. 

Obviously, Israel was a sovereign state with a judiciary, as is the USA. So there are legitimate comparisons in their legal systems, the right to public trial being one of them. However that provision does not substantiate your statement. In fact, even today there are situations when the public is excluded from legal procedures.

But, as Paul made clear in Rom 13, currently "Caesar" or the state "bears the sword" and serves as Gods's minister for good or bad toward his servants. We are all relatively subject to Caesar's laws and, as far as secular matters are concerned, generally, public trial is still a provision of that system should we fall foul of the law or indeed be a victim of crime.

So you do have the right to a public trial today..in "Cesar's" courts.

However, the Christian congregation is a spiritual arrangement and actually is not constituted as a sovereign state in the way of ancient Israel or the modern USA.

Elders have a responsibility to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean, and also to keep Jehovah's name and the name of His Son clear of reproach. This will necessarily mean dealing with wrongdoers, making assessments regarding wrong conduct, taking action to clear out badness from the congregation, and helping repentant ones regain spiritual health. At times, this may include mediation between congregation members to maintain peace in the congregation. @JW Insider has adequately outlined reasons for confidentiality in an earlier post in this thread. 

Where the breaking of Cesar's law is a component of errant behaviour amongst congregation members, then victims are completely at liberty to invoke the provisions of that system (bearing in mind Paul's counsel at 1 Cor. 6:6-8). Indeed, there may well be a legal obligation to refer such matters to the one "that bears the sword".

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

you all pretend you haven't saw.
" In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance".

Is this the account you refer to?

To take a true-life illustration of recent months: A certain youth professed to be a Christian minister. Yet he was carrying on homosexual acts with professed friends of his. When he found it expedient to travel to another part of the country he missed his homosexual friends. So he wrote one of them threatening to expose him if he did not come to where he lived so that they could continue their homosexual relations. But it was not long before this young professed Christian made some overt acts that exposed him and today he is under a ban of at least three years from any Christian congregation of Jehovah’s people.
 

This article discussed the hardening power of a practice of sin and the account illustrates the lengths a person could go to and the consequence when following such a course. I can't see any reason why further explanation would be required here, other than saying that the reference is 46 years old. Hopefully, that person learned, albeit the hard way (1Cor.5:5, 13), and has since been restored to the congregation. 1 Cor 6:9-10.

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

why I don't have the same right?

I think @JW Insider has indicated above how you could go about making your grievances public. You seem to have already embarked on this course anyway.

I do hope you can resolve your issues without cutting yourself off.

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On 3/16/2018 at 2:34 PM, Matthew9969 said:

Sounds like this man is not sinning, just wants to worship God.

Was it that necessary to grave dig a 2016 thread when it is March 17, 2018, to be specific a thread posted March 25, 2016 (about 722 days), with a small comment? It would not have been much of an effort to simply contact the user via pm messaging: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/profile/5857-γιαννης-διαμαντιδης/

or wait until said user of this thread gives an update.

Don't let that happen again, for in doing so makes any comment without an update from the creator of the thread, obsolete and or irrelevant, especially if a person who didn't make this thread says something vague.

What is gravedigging?

Gravedigging is the term we use for reviving inactive threads the name is fitting, because you're basically just digging up things that are long gone.

Why is gravedigging so bad?

Why exactly shouldn't you gravedig? It's pretty simple: Reviving old threads clutters the forum. If everyone went ahead and posted on threads from a while ago, newer threads would struggle to appear from beneath the threads of old nonsense. If one person revives an old thread, other people end up posting on it too. Those members will continue to bump an old thread, advertising it to even more potential posters. Often, an inactive thread will contain outdated information on a particular topic. We want to make sure that you're getting all the updates you need, and so avoiding bringing up older threads is best.

How can I tell if I'm about to gravedig a thread?

Knowing when you might be about to gravedig a thread is important. There might even be times where you avoid posting on a thread because you're worried about gravedigging it when it's actually okay. The age cutoff, when a thread goes from being active to inactive, is currently two weeks If a thread is on the first page of a section, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging, regardless of the age cutoff. If a thread is not on the first page of a section but has not yet reached the age cutoff, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging. You may also post on guides/tutorials, regardless of activity, without being at risk of gravedigging as long as you're posting something constructive, and not something like "great guide" etc. Pinned threads and staff members are also immune from gravedigging. In a nutshell, you can post on any thread that was last active under two weeks ago, and you can also post on threads that were not active under two weeks ago as long as they're on the first page of a section.

This also goes for ignoring Search Bars, in some cases.

Source

    Hello guest!

Information on this can also be Goggle'd on the Internet regarding ALL forums known on the internet.

Remember this, please, for if this was elsewhere, the CSE Christian Community forums, you would have been in a world heavy criticism for pulling that off there.

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Was it that necessary to grave dig a 2016 thread when it is March 17, 2018, to be specific a thread posted March 25, 2016 (about 722 days), with a small comment? It would not have been much of an effort to simply contact the user via pm messaging: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/profile/5857-γιαννης-διαμαντιδης/

or wait until said user of this thread gives an update.

Don't let that happen again, for in doing so makes any comment without an update from the creator of the thread, obsolete and or irrelevant, especially if a person who didn't make this thread says something vague.

What is gravedigging?

Gravedigging is the term we use for reviving inactive threads the name is fitting, because you're basically just digging up things that are long gone.

Why is gravedigging so bad?

Why exactly shouldn't you gravedig? It's pretty simple: Reviving old threads clutters the forum. If everyone went ahead and posted on threads from a while ago, newer threads would struggle to appear from beneath the threads of old nonsense. If one person revives an old thread, other people end up posting on it too. Those members will continue to bump an old thread, advertising it to even more potential posters. Often, an inactive thread will contain outdated information on a particular topic. We want to make sure that you're getting all the updates you need, and so avoiding bringing up older threads is best.

How can I tell if I'm about to gravedig a thread?

Knowing when you might be about to gravedig a thread is important. There might even be times where you avoid posting on a thread because you're worried about gravedigging it when it's actually okay. The age cutoff, when a thread goes from being active to inactive, is currently two weeks If a thread is on the first page of a section, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging, regardless of the age cutoff. If a thread is not on the first page of a section but has not yet reached the age cutoff, you may post on that thread without being at risk of gravedigging. You may also post on guides/tutorials, regardless of activity, without being at risk of gravedigging as long as you're posting something constructive, and not something like "great guide" etc. Pinned threads and staff members are also immune from gravedigging. In a nutshell, you can post on any thread that was last active under two weeks ago, and you can also post on threads that were not active under two weeks ago as long as they're on the first page of a section.

This also goes for ignoring Search Bars, in some cases.

Source

    Hello guest!

Information on this can also be Goggle'd on the Internet regarding ALL forums known on the internet.

Remember this, please, for if this was elsewhere, the CSE Christian Community forums, you would have been in a world heavy criticism for pulling that off there.

I don't believe you are in a position to tell me what I may post on or may not post on. Darn internet free speech police.

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16 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

I don't believe you are in a position to tell me what I may post on or may not post on. Darn internet free speech police.

On the contrary, it is nothing to do with position - fact, for anyone is capable of calling out such things on forums of any kind, for if you are probably fairly new to the internet, people will response and or react to grave-digging a post and or a thread (necroposting) and will call it out and or remind the user (often it is people who are unaware and or newcomers to a forums who do such things and are often reminded and or called out for it), for me I am just a mild type of person who calls out to this type of thing, which should be a lucky case for you, compared to the violent ones that will spark flame wars on forums for any person bringing up or bumping an old thread, regardless of what it is - that being said all I am telling you is that what you have done is grave-dig/necroposting, for if this was your thread, it is understandable, it is called a thread/post bump (update), but seeing as the user who made this thread was inactive for more than 600+ days and other comments with the nearly the same span of time, the last comment coming from "Gone Away" a mere comment that does not add to the thread falls in that category of grave-digging or necroposting - therefore being entirely irrelevant and the thread will not get any sort of attention, whatsoever for what is said is done by the final commentor and or user of said thread, after all that is where such terms come from in regards to internet forums, but let it be a reminder, you are not the first.

Also I agree, freedom of Speech, but it is common sense to be heard by others on an active discussion than a dead one and or one that has already come to a strong conclusion - such as this one.

Grave-Digging and or Necroposting, in addition to calling people out about it is not "Internet Free Speech Police" lol, vastly different from each other by a very large margin, perhaps two margins, for the term you brought up basically does not equal  to what I have mentioned - the facts and information, found on the internet of course, automatically solidifies this - of which can be proven should one look up thread grave-digging and or necroposting compared to what you have mentioned, which seems to be an non-existent term and or not relating to anything in regards to forums and or forum function and users.

Just next time look at the date and the date of the end comment.

 

If you like bringing up dead comment sections and or threads, the only place to best do this, other than a forum(s) is YouTube, for there anything goes and you are bound to get a response from even a 6 year old closed discussion, should anyone see what you posted, not being blanked out by Goggle Algorithms in today's YouTube.

That being said, both of us can sit back and watch the already high probability of this thread going down into the pages as more active and recent threads are always updated with recent comments and discussion and or made by active users who still log on here, and this 2016 thread will return from which it came prior to the grave-digging done on your part, and it going down is already predicted - as this is 100% common with those who necropost such threads, the public irrelevancy, and said thread just going page by page as new ones are made - and my message will just be a reminder to others anyways, and they aren't the first.

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@Space Merchant @Space Merchant @Space Merchant don't know why your name has appeared 3 times or if it will disappear. However what I'm finding at the moment is that i cannot comment on the main thread I was commenting on. Maybe it's good that i can't comment as @TrueTomHarley is sounding off again. Still adding my name to it I see. Poor man just cannot resist it.........

I can see the wood from the trees Tom and can see the need for JW Org to be investigated in every country of this Earth. I say Earth as they say they are no part of the 'world'. However they soon use the worldly legal systems to do their dirty work. 

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7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe it's good that i can't comment as @TrueTomHarley is sounding off again. Still adding my name to it I see. Poor man just cannot resist it..

I am tempted to start a post with flagging you 60 times. It is not considered rude to flag people usually, especially when they have been a central figure of the conversation.

The specific reason I flagged you last time was to exclude you from a category of people that would wish to stifle the Bible's message. Had I not flagged you, I would have left the impression that I thought you were the worst of the lot.

It is out of consideration for you that I did it.

The other thread doesn't work for me, either. I don't know why. To my knowledge no one is specifically shut out without a warning or two first from @The Librarian Not too long ago I got into a endless battle with a certain pestilential fellow who I will not flag because if I never see him again it will still be too soon  - a 'jugganaut', even his chum callled him - about another subject entirely and the Librarian asked me privately to knock it off. 

She is somewhat fond of the bottle (the old hen) and does not always notice at first when conversations are going down the toilet. She really doesn't like conversations, anyway - her pupils are here to study and do homework. She may have closed down the entire thread because there are getting to be many such threads and she is absolutely anal about imposing order on things that are not neccesarily that way, combing through her card catalog and sniffing out duplicates long after all her colleagues have gone digital and use their spare time to have a life.  I don't know. Usually threads run longer than three pages, and if you are not @AllenSmith, who can be outragious, even though more often than not he strikes a blow for what is right, and has been tossed a number of times, you or anyone can continue to your heart's content. 

You must understand, John, that except for me, no Witness here is typical. That is not to say that any of them are bad, necessary, but they are not typical. The typical one will be more reserved as to participate in a slugfest such as this, knowing that Bethel recommends what Jesus recommended about opposers: "Let them be" at Matt 15.

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On 3/17/2016 at 2:38 PM, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

this is because @The Librarian is not running the organization. If she was, each disfellowshipping would be broken down and cataloged in a system that would make John Dewey envious, and like snowflakes, the same reason would not appear twice.

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    • By Jack Ryan
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Updated 6:11 p.m. ET Feb. 16, 2018 Keego Harbor Â— A quiet residential street became a horrific crime scene Friday with news that four people — a couple and their adult children — died in what police are describing as a triple murder-suicide.

      By late afternoon, some yellow police crime scene tape remained around the two-story wood frame bungalow in the 2300 block of Cass Lake Road where police were sent about 8:10 a.m. on a welfare check after a relative became worried about the family, Keego Harbor Police Chief John Fitzgerald said.
      One of four bodies is removed from the home of the 2300 block of Cass Lake Road. (Photo: Clarence Tabb Jr., The Detroit News)
      “A relative had concerns and asked us to look into it,” said Fitzgerald. “It’s tragic and our thoughts and prayers are with the family.”
      Inside the house officers found four bodies who neighbors identified as Daniel Stuart, 47, his wife, Lauren, 45, and their children, Bethany, 24, and Steven, 27.
      Fitzgerald said the “perpetrator” was among the dead but would not provide details other than to stress “we think we know what happened here and there is no danger to neighbors.”
      Fitzgerald said police have recovered what is believed to be the murder weapon but would not elaborate. He said all the deaths remain under investigation.
      Keego Harbor Police Chief John Fitzgerald briefs the media on the murder-suicide. (Photo: Clarence Tabb Jr., The Detroit News)
      Neighbors John and Jackie Tristani said they awoke Friday to learn police were outside the victimsÂ’ home.
      “My son said police were repeatedly calling out ‘Lauren, come outside,’ " said John Tristani. “When she didn’t respond they (police) went inside. A few minutes later, they came back outside, shaking their heads.”
      Tristani said he had been watching television late Thursday night and never heard anything from the Stuarts' home.
      Sources close to the investigation said the family pet, a dog, was also slain by the killer. Investigators also found a note which may help explain what led up to the deaths. They would not discuss its contents.
      The deaths puzzle the Tristanis, who knew Lauren Stuart as a “hard-working” neighbor who could often be seen working in her yard and remodeled the house largely on her own.
      “She would often come over and borrow tools – a saw, a pickaxe – whatever,” said Tristani. “She was always doing something.”
      The Tristanis said in one of their first meetings with Lauren Stuart a few years ago she attempted to “recruit” them into the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      “I said we were Catholics and weren’t interested,” he said. “She accepted the answer and it was the end of that.”
      Lauren Stuart worked at an area gym, he said, and her husband was involved in some form of medical business in the Ann Arbor area.
      Darlene and Dennis Buck, who live a block away on Cass Lake Road, said they were enroute home from a trip to northern Michigan when they learned of the murder-suicide.
      “We have lived here since ’74 and nothing like this has ever happened in our neighborhood — not even close,” said Darlene Buck.
      Jackie Tristani said she found it all “scary” – not just the deaths but that something might have been going on in a neighbor’s home without her knowledge. She had tried to get Bethany a job at her workplace and her son knew both Bethany and Steven. There was never any mention or indication of trouble inside the home, she said.
      “I would hope that if there was a problem inside there someone would have reached out, we would have tried to help,” she said, her voice quaking. “Maybe we could have done something.
      “But you never really know everything there is about your neighbors, do you?”

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    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      If a Brother or Sister in good standing in the Congregation goes into the hospital, and agrees to a whole blood transfusion, and dies anyway, can they be disfellowshipped post mortem, and what about the funeral arrangements?  ( I have heard of this being done, but never explained....)
      Can they have a funeral at the Kingdom Hall?
      Let's say a Brother or Sister in good standing in the Congregation  goes berserk, and commits some crime, and either dies by misadventure, or gets shot by police ....
      Can they have a funeral at the Kingdom Hall?
      Considering such questions is like a submarine on the surface, at night, in the fog .... firing torpedoes randomly into the darkness, to see what lights up.
      .... sometimes survival depends on having the right answer about "What is out there?".
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      Which Pill Would We Take ..... The Red Pill? .... or the Blue Pill?
      In the political world, more and more people are rejecting "Fake News" as provided by CNN (Clinton News Network), ABC (All 'bout Clinton) and NBC (Nothin' but Clinton), etc., and are seeking the truth about what they are being told ..... wherever it may be found.
      Today John Stossel had an article about this on Foxnews which is incredibly important ... not only for the political ramifications ... but every manner of philosophical thought ....  and our very view of how the Universe works, and what "makes it tick".
      If you have seen the movie "The Matrix" .... a MUST SEE movie .... you already know the common expression "Red Pill? Blue Pill?".
      If you don't ... YOU SHOULD. 
      The concept behind the expression is incredibly important ... as to whether we live in and artificial fantasy construct world ... or a world of what is actually REAL.
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      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Oh ... and if you have not seen it .... get a copy of the movie, so you will actually get a "feel" for the depth of the now commonly understood  idiomatic expression.
      (For those in Rio Linda, that has nothing to do with sex, it has to do with basic understanding .....)
      Grok?
       
       
       
       
       
    • By Witness
      “JehovahÂ’s Witness kids grow up knowing that if they ever mess up, their parents will leave them — and thatÂ’s scary,” Sawyer, now 38, said in a recent interview from her home in Pascagoula, Miss. “The shunning is supposed to make us miss them so much that weÂ’ll come back. Â… It didnÂ’t work.”
      Sawyer and many others like her are now denouncing the church's shunning practices in the wake of a recent murder-suicide in Keego Harbor that killed a family of four ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses who were ostracized after leaving the faith. The deaths sparked outrage among scores of ex-JWs nationwide who took to Facebook, online forums, blogs and YouTube, arguing the tragedy highlights a pervasive yet rarely-publicized problem within the church: Shunning is pushing the most vulnerable people over the edge, they say, and tearing families apart.
      In the Michigan case, a distraught mother shot and killed her husband, her two grown children and herself in their Keego Harbor home, shocking the small and quiet Oakland County community.
      The shooter was Lauren Stuart, a part-time model and personal trainer who struggled with depression and spent much of her time working on her house, her friends say. She and her husband, Daniel Stuart, 47, left the JW faith more than a decade ago over doctrinal and social issues. Among them was their desire to send their kids to college, which many ex-JWs say is frowned upon by the church and viewed as spiritually dangerous.
      “University and college campuses are notorious for bad behavior — drug and alcohol abuse, immorality, cheating, hazing, and the list goes on,” a 2005 article in the Watchtower, the church's official publication, stated.
      But the Stuarts sent both their kids to college: Steven, 27, excelled in computers, just like his father, who was a data solutions architect for the University of Michigan Medical School. Bethany, 24, thrived in art and graphic design.  After the parents left the faith, the Stuarts were ostracized by the Kingdom Hall — the churches where Jehovah's Witnesses worship — community in Union Lake and their families, friends said.
      Lauren Stuart, whose mother died of cancer when she was 12, struggled with mental illness that went untreated; isolation and fears that the end was near, said friends and officials familiar with the case. One friend who requested anonymity said she believes the killing was the result of depression, not religion.
      "This is a tragedy that has to do with a disease. Depression is so prevalent, and when it goes untreated this is what happens," the friend said. "She needed medical help."
      Longtime family friend Joyce Taylor believes depression, shunning and religion-based doomsday fears all played a role. She said that about six weeks before the killings, Lauren started getting religiously preoccupied and telling her "'It's the end times, I know it is.'"

      Weeks later, Taylor saw her friend again. Lauren had a vacant look in her eyes. She was emotionally distressed.
      A week later, with her home decorated for Valentine's Day, Lauren Stuart killed her family. She left behind a suicide note.
      "She said in the suicide note that she felt that by killing them it was the only way to save them," recalled Taylor, who said police let her read the letter. "She said she's sorry that she has to do this, but it was the only way to save them all." 
      Taylor, a former Jehovah's Witness herself who left the faith in 1986, explained: "Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you die on this side of Armageddon, you'll be resurrected in paradise."
      In Lauren Stuart's case, Taylor believes her friend never deprogrammed after leaving the church — a state she describes as  "physically out, but mentally in." She believes that Lauren's indoctrinated doomsday fears never left her, and that the shunning helped push her over the edge.
      Had she not been excommunicated by her tight-knit community that was once her entire support system — left with no one to share her fears with — Lauren Stuart may not have done what she did, Taylor believes.
      "People do things when they are desperate," Taylor said. "And that was an extreme, desperate act."
      Shunning "can lead to great trauma among people because the Jehovah's Witnesses are a very tight-knit community," said Mathew Schmalz, a religious studies associate professor at the College of Holy Cross in Worcester, Mass.
      "If you're separated out, you're really left to your own devices in ways that are very challenging and very painful," Schmalz said. "Once you leave a group that's been your whole life — letting that go is a kind of death."
      Police have not yet disclosed details about the death of the Stuart family besides calling it a murder-suicide.
      The tragedy has emboldened many once-quiet ex-JWs to speak up. Many say they suffered quietly on their own for years until they discovered an online community full of isolated, ostracized people like themselves — people who had lost someone to suicide or attempted suicide themselves because their families, friends and church community had written them off for making mistakes, for being human. 
      The church calls it being "disfellowshipped." Members can return if they repent, change the behavior and prove themselves worthy of being reinstated. But unless or until that happens, members are encouraged to avoid the sinners, especially those who leave the faith.
      Mothers go years, even decades, without talking to their children. Siblings write off siblings. Friends shun friends.
      An estimated 70,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses are disfellowshipped every year — roughly 1% of the church’s total population, according to data published by the Watchtower. Their names are published at local Kingdom Halls. Of those, two-thirds never return.
      Within a faith representing 8.4 million people worldwide, however, many members believe the religion is pure, good and loving. Those who are speaking against it, current members argue, are disgruntled and angry people who have an ax to grind because they were disfellowshipped. Or, they are lost souls who have misinterpreted the meaning and love behind the faith. Members say they believe the shunning accusations are exaggerated and that the suicides are often more about mental illness than ostracism.
      The departed disagree.  
      In the world of ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses, they maintain, the shunned are considered dead to their families, just like the suicide victims. 
      These are their stories:
      ‘A dangerous cult’
      It was a difficult conversation to wrap her 8-year-old brain around.
      “‘You know your sister was being bad, right?’“ Sawyer recalled her mother telling her after her sister's suicide.
      “ ‘And what she did was stupid, right?’ … To take your own life is very wrong,' " the mother continued.
      “I didn’t understand what was going on … and I said, ‘Oh. OK,,’ “ recalled Sawyer. “In my 8-year-old brain I was thinking, ‘When I mess up, my mom’s going to hate me.’ "
      And so began her painful journey with the Jehovah’s Witness faith, the religion she was born into and grew up in in Pascagoula, Miss., where her fears of abandonment took hold at the age of 8. 
      Sawyer believes the shunning drove her sister to suicide. After the church disfellowshipped her for getting engaged to a non-JW, the fiancé left her sister, who was thrown into depression. Her sister tried turning to her mother for consolation, but her mom would read scripture and tell her, "until you start acting right, you’re going to have these bad things happen to you.“
      Bad things happened to Sawyer, too. At 30, she sought a divorce from her husband because he was abusive and cheating on her, she said. But the church elders and family pressured her to save her marriage.
      “I showed them the holes in my walls,” Sawyer said, referring to the damage her ex-husband did to the home during fights. “They told me to pray more … and sent me back home to him.”
      Sawyer took up smoking to handle the stress, which got her disfellowshipped because smoking is not allowed. She also went through with the divorce. She ended up losing her home to foreclosure and turned to her mother for help as she had two children to raise.

        Her mother took her in temporarily, but when the church elders found out, they threatened to disfellowship Sawyer’s mother — who let the grandkids stay, but not the daughter. 
      Sawyer ended up homeless for six months, living out of her car in a community college parking lot. She landed on her feet with the help of a student loan. She got an apartment, a job as a hospice nurse and her children — now 10 and 18 — back. She found herself, but lost her family along the way.
      Her mother doesnÂ’t speak to her; she said she canÂ’t recall the last time they spoke.
      Her sister in Alabama hasnÂ’t spoken to her since Sawyer got divorced in 2010.
      “She was on my porch, with my parents … My sister looked at me and said, ‘You’re abandoning me just like Donna did’ And left. And that's the last thing she ever said to me."
      Sawyer has kept silent about her pain for decades.
      “This is a dangerous cult,” she said of her former religion. “It’s important for people to realize —  this is serious.” 
      Read the rest of the story here:

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    • By Outta Here
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Even the highly regarded BBC cannot resist the  temptation to indulge in gutter-press standard reporting when it comes to Jehovah's Witnesses.
      This report on the Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipping process is rather misleading. It associates the disfellowshipping action with totally unrelated experiences and leaves the impression that this action is taken: 
      1. when a person leaves an abusive relationship 
      2: when a person does not attend the annual memorial celebration of Christ's death.
      Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the most inexperienced researcher could easily find out the circumstances leading to this serious and scriptural measure by looking at
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      It is unlikely that the interviewees would reveal the real reason for their disfellowshipping which would probably cause personal embarrassment, and there is no way that the official organisation would comment or reveal the details of an individual case.
       
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