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Who are declared righteous for life ?


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22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Those who have a heavenly hope may serve on earth, and those with an earthly hope may serve in heaven for all we know.

Why should there be two different destinies in the first place - especially for Christian believers?

What is the scriptural support that there are two different destinies for Christian believers? 

(These questions are for anyone.)

 

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I understand Ph.2:9-11 to indicate that every intelligent creation will be subject to Christ.  As Ps 37:29 speaks of righteous ones living forever on earth, so this constitutes one destiny.

I would agree that this refers to an earth-based destiny. Earlier I made a list of some topics that were more often used during a time when the Watch Tower publications often took a special note

In the 1970's, we were still using blue binders with 24 "spokes" to collect the magazines, but bound volumes were being printed.  I remember that it was long after I was baptized that I even noti

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5 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

What is the scriptural support that there are two different destinies for Christian believers? 

I understand Ph.2:9-11 to indicate that every intelligent creation will be subject to Christ. 

As Ps 37:29 speaks of righteous ones living forever on earth, so this constitutes one destiny.

Obviously, a heavenly hope is held out in the Scripture also (Heb.3:1), so this relates to the other destiny. 

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16 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Obviously, a heavenly hope is held out in the Scripture also (Heb.3:1), so this relates to the other destiny. 

"Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling [or 'invitation'], consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus." - Heb. 3:1

Is this a call/ invitation to heaven, or a call/ invitation from heaven?

When Jesus gave his Sermon on the Mount, was his believing audience composed of those who had two different destinies or just one destiny?
 

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Destinies

- Earth

Ps 37:11,29 Righteous to live one earth forever - original purpose – God put Adam on earth

Matt 5:5 Meek shall inherit the earth – Jesus

Rev 7: 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

Rev 21;3,4 Will live one earth in good conditions with no more death

(Revelation 7:13, 14) In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”.

No tribulation in heaven. (Matthew 24:21)

John 10:16 Other sheep not of this (heavenly) fold - earthly

 -  Heaven

(Luke 12:32) “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

(Luke 22:28-29) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,…

(Revelation 14:1) Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.  (Revelation 14:3) And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

(Revelation 5:9) And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

(Hebrews 3:1) Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge  — Jesus.

(2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14) 13 However, we are obligated always to thank God for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because from the beginning God selected you for salvation by sanctifying you with his spirit and by your faith in the truth. 14 He called you to this through the good news we declare, so that you may acquire the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1: 10… It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ,

Has earthly things and heavenly things

Ephesians 1: 10… It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him 11 with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs, having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will, 12 so that we who have been first to hope in the Christ should serve for the praise of his glory. 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance,

 

Has different folds  (earthly and heavenly) but one flock

 

(John 10:16, 17) 16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. 17 This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. . .

 

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See if you can get something from this.

Begin Quote *** it-1 pp. 996-997 Great Crowd ***

Their Identification. The key to the identification of the “great crowd” is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as ‘spreading his tent over them,’ of their being guided to “fountains of waters of life,” and of God’s wiping “every tear from their eyes.” At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: ‘God’s tent being with mankind,’ his ‘wiping every tear from their eyes,’ and ‘death being no more.’ The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the ‘New Jerusalem comes down,’ but on earth, among mankind.

This poses the question: If the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb.   End quote

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7 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Is this a call/ invitation to heaven, or a call/ invitation from heaven?

I'd see it as a call from heaven to go to heaven. 1 Cor 15:48-49 etc.

7 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

When Jesus gave his Sermon on the Mount, was his believing audience composed of those who had two different destinies or just one destiny?

At that time they were all destined for the Grave I would have thought. Ecc. 9:5, 10.

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20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Ps 37:11,29 Righteous to live one earth forever - original purpose – God put Adam on earth

Matt 5:5 Meek shall inherit the earth – Jesus

The ones who inherit the earth are the same ones to whom "the Kingdom of the heavens" belong, who will "see God" and "will be called sons of God," surely (Matt. 5:3, 8-10). Or was Jesus addressing two classes of people in the audience listening to him that day? (Eoin, this was the reason for that question.)

Also, to be able to inherit something, doesn't one have to be an heir?

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Rev 7: 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

Contextually, according to the vision, the 'great crowd' are in the same location as the angels, elders and four living creatures. So where would that be?

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

No tribulation in heaven. (Matthew 24:21)

The tribulation was on earth. The 'great crowd' has come out of it and taken their place in the peaceful presence of God and the heavenly court - according to the details of the vision.

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

John 10:16 Other sheep not of this (heavenly) fold - earthly

You've read different destinies into the text. There is nothing in Jesus' words that suggests two destinies. Two groups, yes, but cp. Eph. 2:11-18, especially noting v. 14.

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

(Luke 12:32) “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

(Luke 22:28-29) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,…

No mention of whether the destiny is heaven or earth here.

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

(Revelation 14:3) And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

Where else would humans have been bought from, irrespective of final destiny?

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

(Revelation 5:9) And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

But Rev. 7:9 has the 'great crowd' being comprised of people "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" too, and yet you used this to argue for an earthly group. How does Rev. 5:9 argue for a heaven-bound group?

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Can one not rule 'over the earth' while on the earth? Cp. Gen. 1:28.

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

(Hebrews 3:1) Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge  — Jesus.

Please see my and Eoin's exchange(s). I've yet to reply to his latest post.

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

(2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14) ... 14 He called you to this through the good news we declare, so that you may acquire the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The scripture says nothing of the location here.

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Ephesians 1: 10… It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, ...

The following verses (as you quoted) have heaven and earth being gathered together in Christ. It doesn't indicate that some Christian believers will have their everlasting reward in one or the other location.

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Thanks for your interest. 

As Eion said in a recent post, one has to pray for understanding and insight.

Seat of God's Kingdom is in heaven, since Jesus went back to heaven, is of spirit nature, has immortality and is living in unapproachable light. ( 1 Tim 6:16) Those who partake of his nature would also be resurrected to heaven. So they acquire the glory of Jesus. (2 Thess 2:13,14)  Jesus frequently used the term the "kingdom of the heavens".

Eph 1:10 reaffirms one flock, one shepherd; but two folds: Earthly and heavenly. Therefore it agrees with John 10:16.

Little flock in heaven; great flock on earth where humans were placed originally.

One could be in presence of God and not necessarily be in heaven. When God acknowledged his Son on earth he was in his presence. (See my research given to Shiwii.)

Can't fault your logic but you have to see the whole picture, the overall purpose of God to understand it.  Logic is good but it is not everything. I will leave the rest to other commenters.

*** w13 1/1 p. 9 “You Have . . . Revealed Them to Babes” ***

Jesus knew that to unlock the spiritual truth found in the Bible, we need two things: God’s help and the right heart attitude. Jesus explains: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.” Do you see why it is that grasping the spiritual truth found in the Bible may be considered a matter of privilege? Jehovah, the “Lord of heaven and earth,” may hide or reveal the truth according to his sovereign will. But God is not arbitrary in this matter of revelation. On what basis does he reveal Bible truth to some and not to others?

Jehovah favors the humble, not the haughty. (James 4:6) He hides the truth from “wise and intellectual ones”—worldly-wise and learned ones who in their pride and self-reliance feel no need for his help. (1 Corinthians 1:19-21) But he reveals the truth to “babes”—those who come to him with sincere hearts, showing childlike humility. (Matthew 18:1-4; 1 Corinthians 1:26-28) God’s Son, Jesus, saw such responses firsthand. Many proud, highly educated religious leaders did not get the sense of Jesus’ message, but humble fishermen did. (Matthew 4:18-22; 23:1-5; Acts 4:13) At the same time, some wealthy and educated ones who showed genuine humility became Jesus’ followers.—Luke 19:1, 2, 8; Acts 22:1-3.

We come back to the question raised at the outset: Do you want to know the truth about God? If so, you may find comfort in knowing that God does not favor those who consider themselves worldly-wise. On the contrary, he favors those whom the worldly-wise may look down on. If you study God’s Word with the right attitude of mind and heart, you may be among those to whom Jehovah gives a precious gift—an understanding of the truth about him. Grasping that truth will add meaning to your life now and can lead to “the real life”—endless life in God’s promised new world of righteousness soon to come.—1 Timothy 6:12, 19; 2 Peter 3:13.

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On 12/2/2016 at 3:27 PM, Melinda Mills said:

Matt 5:5 Meek shall inherit the earth – Jesus

I would agree that this refers to an earth-based destiny.

Earlier I made a list of some topics that were more often used during a time when the Watch Tower publications often took a special note of the differences between the spirit-anointed class and those who were not spirit-anointed. As you might recall, Matthew 5:5 was often included in this same type of discussion. I should have included it.

I became a publisher in 1962 according to my Publishers Record Card and I remember my first door-to-door sermon was always Psalm 37:10, 11 and 29. Then I'd flip over to read Matthew 5:5, make a quick comment, and finish with Revelation 21:3,4. I used it almost the same way probably 1,000 times until I started "vacation pioneering" ("auxiliary pioneering") in the summers starting in 1968, the year after I was baptized. That year, I worked with a Circuit Overseer who told me that I could still use Matthew 5:5, in "principle," but that I shouldn't say that Jesus was addressing people who would live forever on the earth. He said that Matthew 5:5 referred to the anointed who had a heavenly hope.

I was shocked. This had been published since long before I was baptized, but I had missed it. According to the Watch Tower publications he was right, of course:

*** w66 9/1 p. 538 Do You Remember? ***
Who are the mild-tempered ones referred to in Matthew 5:5, who will inherit the earth?
Jesus Christ and his 144,000 anointed followers.—P. 451.

*** w66 8/1 p. 451 “Happy Are the Mild-tempered Ones” ***
Who are the mild-tempered that will inherit the earth? Certainly they would include Jesus Christ himself, for, above all men that ever lived on this earth, he was mild-tempered. As he himself said: “Come to me, . . . for I am mild-tempered.” Concerning him and his triumphal ride into Jerusalem, it was written: “Look! Your King is coming to you, mild-tempered.”—Matt. 11:28, 29; 21:5.
That Jesus Christ, as the preeminent mild-tempered one, will inherit the earth other scriptures make clear. Jehovah God has appointed him to be “heir of all things,” including this earth. In fact, ‘the nations are to be his inheritance, and the ends of the earth his possession.’—Heb. 1:2; Ps. 2:7, 8.
This inheritance Jesus Christ shares, even as he does his Kingdom rule, with his anointed footstep followers, for they are to be “heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ.” These are the ones the apostle John saw in vision standing upon heavenly Mount Zion and who number 144,000.—Rom. 8:17; Rev. 14:1.

*** w59 8/1 p. 479 Questions From Readers ***
When Jesus said, as recorded at Matthew 5:5, “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth,” of whom was he speaking?—H. S., U.S.A.
Jesus here applied the expression “mild-tempered” or “meek” to his disciples of that time who were in line for the heavenly kingdom.

*** w58 3/1 p. 139 “Blessed Are the Meek” ***
Inheriting the earth is part of his reward for his meek and faithful course while a man.—Matt. 5:5, AS; Ps. 2:8.
Sharing this inheritance with Jesus Christ will be his “bride,” those footstep followers of his, limited to 144,000, who will receive a heavenly reward.

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So that was the point Ann O'Maly was making, then. Like you I used it and the other scriptures you mentioned referring to the earthly inheritance in my sermons as a child. And like you I would have missed it due to youth and the facilities available at the times. I don't think we had bound volumes in those days, either. Thanks, for the information. We all continue to learn. Kind regards Melinda

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