Who are declared righteous for life ?

[Melinda Mills]

“In effect, as many opposers are quick to point out, only the remnant become the mediator between Jesus and the "other sheep." It's problematic and forces the idea that the Greek Scriptures were only written to the remnant, and the only parts that can apply at least indirectly to the other sheep are those portions that the remnant will clarify for them”. JW Insider Agree above is problematic in context of 1 Tim 2:5. Think with had a discussion on this around June/July. Light will come.

[Diakonos]

6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Whilst illuminating, these discussions are disappointing as to the spirit they show existed both amongst certain witnesses in the past and those who inherit their legacy.

Jesus had no objection to submitting to water baptism by imperfect, unworthy John the Baptizer in order to "carry out all that is righteous". Matt.3:13-15. No clergy-laity hocus pocus existed there.

Why would anyone object to being brought to righteousness by someone else as described at Dan.12:3? 

Bringing someone to righteousness does not make the bringer a mediator between the person and God. If you conduct a Bible study with an individual and that individual abandons an immoral lifestyle and subsequently lives their life by God's standards you can say that you have had a part in turning or leading that person towards righteousness. However, you have not become a mediator between that person and God.

The simple Biblical fact is stated at 1 Tim 2 : 5 there is only one mediator between God and men and that is God's son, Jesus Christ.

[Shiwiii]

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Just keep looking. Pray for God's spirit. He will help you if you are sincere.

So you are saying that I should pray to God so that he will help you explain how you come to a conclusion that really isn't obvious nor found in the Bible? lol

I believe this is your escape phrase for when you cannot defend a position you have, I've seen it before from you.  You have not provided any scriptural support for your belief. Its ok, you can believe whatever you want, but don't claim it is from God's word if you cannot support it. 

[Evacuated]

8 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I believe this is your escape phrase

I wish it was. No, it's really what Jesus said isn't it.

[Shiwiii]

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I wish it was.

Then explain with scripture your position. 

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Then explain with scripture your position. 

My position, unfortunately, with your aggressive and impertinent responses, is to apply, with regret, the advice of the apostle Paul so eloquently expressed at 2 Tim. 2:23: "Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights."

In more modern parlance, I suppose: "You're fired!".

[Shiwiii]

2 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

My position, unfortunately, with your aggressive and impertinent responses, is to apply, with regret, the advice of the apostle Paul so eloquently expressed at 2 Tim. 2:23: "Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights."

In more modern parlance, I suppose: "You're fired!".

Does 1 Peter 3:15 mean nothing to you then?. It says "everyone who asks you" 

[JW Insider]

20 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

For JWInsider: Please note the article I quoted about bringing the many to righteousness since 1935 was from 2014.

Yes.

I probably hold a position similar to yours on this issue, and probably even as to how it relates to the question at hand. I believe that we should be humble and admit that we don't really know exactly how and where Jehovah wishes for us to serve him in the future. Those who have a heavenly hope may serve on earth, and those with an earthly hope may serve in heaven for all we know.

(Matthew 8:11) 11 But I tell you that many from east and west will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens;

All we really know is that our love for Jehovah should motivate us; our faith in him and the gift of Jesus' sacrifice should motivate us to do what is right. But doing what is right is not a means of gaining righteousness in the context of Romans. In fact, we can't do anything to gain righteousness, and only Jehovah and Christ "bring" us to righteousness in the sense that Romans speaks about. It's a condition that we are freely granted (through faith) such that we can approach the righteous heavens in prayer.

This is not about a "place" where we will serve and praise Jehovah in the future. It is about the "place" we are granted before Jehovah's throne today:

(Hebrews 4:16) Let us, then, approach the throne of undeserved kindness with freeness of speech, so that we may receive mercy and find undeserved kindness to help us at the right time.

 

[Melinda Mills]

You know from a few years now the thoughts which we entertained about these things.  As I mentioned in the opening part of the submission, Paul said we will know these things accurately as time passes. Once our motives are right and we love Jehovah he will assign us to serve where he wishes and we will be happy with our assignment. Love is the virtue which will remain for all eternity.

Good to hear from you.

[JW Insider]

On 11/29/2016 at 10:58 AM, Melinda Mills said:

Both earthly and heavenly servants are righteous, but Jehovah can do what he wants with this things.   As with household servants, some can be assigned to serve in the inner chambers, some can serve in the courtyard.

As I'm sure you are aware, the 144,000 are never spoken of as serving in the inner chambers. Only the "great crowd" are ever spoken of as serving in the inner chambers.

This should not make us confused about the fact that all of us may have different destinies as to how and where we will serve, if we are privileged to be counted among those who will gain life. Clearly, there is both a new heavens and a new earth. Yet, the New Jerusalem (per Revelation 21 & 22) appears to be a heavenly city that comes down to earth, and by that we take it to mean that the earth is blessed by the "work" and "power" of the new holy city. But who enters New Jerusalem?

(Revelation 22:14) 14 Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates.

The meaning is clear from the same verse that the NWT cross-references, here:

(1 John 1:7-10) 7 However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we make the statement, “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But who are the ones who "wash their robes"? Revelation 7 says it is the "great crowd" who are, of course, the only ones spoken of as rendering their service in the inner sanctuary, the inner chambers.

(Revelation 7:9, 13-15) 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; . . . 13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; [inner chambers, Gk: naos]

This doesn't mean that the 144,000 are not also there, of course, but to me it highlights that we need to be more humble and less dogmatic about our supposed "knowledge" of these things. I therefore agree whole-heartedly with your statements:

On 11/29/2016 at 10:58 AM, Melinda Mills said:

Understanding will increase – no need to be argumentative or dogmatic

 

(1 Corinthians 13:12, 13) ¹² For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. ¹³ Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.

 

 (Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.

 

====================

 

Both earthly and heavenly servants are righteous, but Jehovah can do what he wants with this things.   As with household servants, some can be assigned to serve in the inner chambers, some can serve in the courtyard.

 

 (Isaiah 60:21) And all your people will be righteous; They will possess the land forever. They are the sprout that I planted, The work of my hands, for me to be beautified.

 

 

[JW Insider]

14 hours ago, Diakonos said:

Bringing someone to righteousness does not make the bringer a mediator between the person and God. If you conduct a Bible study with an individual and that individual abandons an immoral lifestyle and subsequently lives their life by God's standards you can say that you have had a part in turning or leading that person towards righteousness. However, you have not become a mediator between that person and God.

The simple Biblical fact is stated at 1 Tim 2 : 5 there is only one mediator between God and men and that is God's son, Jesus Christ.

I believe you are absolutely right.

I was referring to the idea that I was once excited to see a moderation of this clergy-laity idea, and I was also happy to see a lot of changes recently that move us away from the idea that the Greek Scriptures were only written to the "anointed" and not directly for most of us who profess an earthly hope. But when I saw your question, and the quote from the 2014 Watchtower, it reminded me that it continues to be a topic for conversation and questions.

There were about 6 specific topics, plus a couple of general ones, that drove some of these questions.

1. One was the difference between immortality and eternal life.
2. Another was a difference between washing robes and being granted white robes.
3. Another was whether Jesus was the mediator of the great crowd / other sheep.
4. Another was for whom Jesus' sacrifice was a direct "propitiatory" ransom sacrifice, and for whom it was a sacrifice with indirect benefits to the rest of the world (those who would gain life on earth).
5. Another was the topic you brought up, sometimes specified as the difference between "righteousness as a friend of God vs. righteousness as a son of God."
6. Another was an older doctrine (sometimes called the "mystery doctrine") that was supposedly dropped in the early 1960's, but which was brought up again by a president of the Watch Tower Society at a time when the "mediator" question was being questioned.

#6 is a more complicated one, which I cannot summarize into a single phrase like the others, but it is still reflected in the ideas of #3 and #4, and often leads to phrases about the "other sheep" gaining their righteousness (the benefits of Jesus' sacrifice) through the work of the "anointed."

#4 has not been pushed for many years, and #3 while rarely mentioned is still carefully worded to match the idea that has appeared explicitly in print (that Jesus is not the mediator for the "other sheep.") The term mediator is given a technical legal sense so that it is only applied to those in the new covenant, which is only considered valid for the 144,000.

 

 

[Ann O'Maly]

On 11/29/2016 at 7:00 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Well, don't misquote. I said "the first century Christians addressed by Paul".

Maybe you missed my first question to you?

On 11/29/2016 at 3:19 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

 

On 11/28/2016 at 7:51 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Obviously, Abraham's destiny and that of the first century Christians addressed by Paul differ,

How is it obvious Abraham's destiny and that of first century Christians differ?

Anyway, need to catch up with the rest of this thread now ...