How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?

[Anna]

On 6/24/2019 at 1:06 AM, Noble Berean said:

Hi Anna! Sorry for the delay in response. I am a little bit confused what you mean about complete obedience being in the minds of only some Witnesses. The Governing Body spells it out in their literature. Here are some notable examples:

• Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same? (w09 2/15 pp. 24-28)
• "We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval." (w11 7/15 p.24 Simplified English Edition)
• "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)

I am not sure how much clearer they can be about their attitude. They expect complete trust and obedience in their direction. For Br. Jackson to suggest that JWs would see wrong direction and not follow it is disingenuous. The truth is that adherents have continued to obey the GB throughout its self-admitted history of erring direction.

JWs are literally told that their personal views are valueless next to the direction of the organization: "He [a mature Christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding." (Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14) So, under what circumstances would JWs suddenly become aware that their personal ideas on the Bible have weight? Members are primed to put loyalty to leadership and the group ahead of their personal faith.

I also apologize for the (really) late response.

On 6/24/2019 at 1:06 AM, Noble Berean said:

I am a little bit confused what you mean about complete obedience being in the minds of only some Witnesses. Anna's quote: "Somehow though I think that the idea of unquestioned obedience to a group of uninspired men exists in the minds of some Witnesses, but not all".

Notice I said unquestioned obedience. There is a big difference, and I think this is what our issue should be, not the obedience which results from cooperation,  but obedience which goes above obedience to Jehovah.  The scriptures are clear, we must obey God as ruler rather than men. So if our obedience to anyone, including the GB, conflicts with God, then we do not obey. This rule governs any of those quotes from the WT you posted. Of course, when one discusses the general aspects of obedience, including those quotes, one assumes that in reality the FDS is not going to instruct anyone to go against God and do something unscriptural. So that means that one can take those quotes at face value and happily obey, without any qualms. However, it is possible that some would allow their obedience to cross the threshold of what is scriptural, because they intend to obey the FDS no matter what, and that is the point I was trying to make.

On 6/24/2019 at 1:06 AM, Noble Berean said:

JWs are literally told that their personal views are valueless next to the direction of the organization: "He [a mature Christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding." (Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14) So, under what circumstances would JWs suddenly become aware that their personal ideas on the Bible have weight? Members are primed to put loyalty to leadership and the group ahead of their personal faith.

I understand why you say this, but the context of that particular paragraph is Christian maturity as exemplified by  "oneness of the faith" as spoken of by the apostle Paul in Ephesians 4:11-14 : " And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers,  some as shepherds and teachers,  with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ. So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes". So if "oneness of the faith" here is the concern, then it is natural to regard "differing private ideas" about Bible interpretation as undesirable. Sometimes though we may not be able to stop "private ideas", and whether this is because of Christian immaturity or not, it is ultimately between us and Jehovah and not the GB/FDS. 

No doubt it must cross people's minds though that how come 8 men can wield such authority, supposedly over the faith of 8 million people, with only a claim that they are the fds of Matthew 24. But really, although they make that claim, it does not obviously mean that they are inspired or infallible, nor that they actually do wield authority over our lives, or our spirituality/faith. All these aspects are our own responsibility, our personal faith.Their responsibility is to provide food at the proper time, and also, to shepherd the congregations in order to keep them clean with respect to morality and spiritual cleanses (not mixing pagan ideas with Christianity). If the congregation was allowed to get contaminated with worldly attitudes (e.g. immorality) and false teachings, then the congregation would lose God's favor as it would no longer be clean. Some Jws and many ex-jws misinterpret this to mean that the GB controls people's lives.

 

[Anna]

On 6/26/2019 at 9:07 AM, Matthew9969 said:

These statements does strongly imply that the governing body are idols to the rank and file.

To some.

[Anna]

On 6/9/2019 at 2:27 PM, Outta Here said:

On 6/9/2019 at 2:23 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Somehow You start to involve wording, Nature of JHVH happiness, in question i put. I don't now why. Because you started talking about God's Nature (Happiness).

Don't understand this. I think @Anna raised the topic?

I thought you were talking about me raising the topic of the nature of God's happiness. Not the actual topic "How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole channel, and at the same time accept that they can err?

[Anna]

On 6/25/2019 at 11:51 PM, Noble Berean said:

On 6/24/2019 at 2:22 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

 In my opinion, based on fact that no where in WTJWORG print or digital way, GJ appearance  before ARC was NOT possible to see (to read about) on JWTV Broadcasting, to empowered your reasoning, claim  before JW people on that other website. 

That is a good point Srecko. The audience at the ARC wasn't JWs (and any indoctrinated JW would've probably avoided viewing the ARC recording). That is why Geoffrey Jackson is able to make disingenuous comments like the one Anna brought up. They weren't meant for JW ears. Another that comes to mind is his remark that the GB claiming sole spokesperson status would be "presumptuous." He wouldn't dare say something like that to active members, because it would confuse and disturb them. No, the comments were meant for outsiders that are less familiar with the organization and less likely to question him.

To a certain extend I agree with your statement regarding the change in "language" when speaking to outsiders. JW's, do, and should do the same. Some don't, and as a result lose their "worldly" audience. As for GJ though to have intentionally used these comments to mislead, I do not think so, as this would be very short sighted. He must know that there will be other JWs who would hear his comment. 

The other thing is you do not know "he wouldn't dare to say anything like this to active members". That's just your opinion. Would you have ever thought you would see Tony Morris "dare" to go shopping for boxes of hard liquor? If TM was worried about being spotted he would have worn a disguise, or sent someone else.  Again, it seems to me that what the GB dares or not dares to do or say lives in the minds of others.

[Anna]

On 6/24/2019 at 1:06 AM, Noble Berean said:

JWs are literally told that their personal views are valueless next to the direction of the organization: "He [a mature Christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding."

There is something else I wanted to add to this. It's not that JW's personal views are valueless, but if you look up the definition of "to harbor" you will see that it means something like "keep (a thought or feeling, typically a negative one) in one's mind, especially secretly....with the synonyms  "nurturing" "nursing" "cherishing". It's all about attitude. There may be something that a JW understands differently to the GB/FDS, they just don't see it the same way. If someone understands something differently to the GB/FDS, do you think it would be reasonable to expect that someone to stop seeing it that way just for the sake of it? Or has it more to do with the attitude of that person? For example, someone may not really accept the explanation of the "Generation" although they tried, but just can't. The immature person might want to make a big deal out of it. They may "nurse" their idea until it becomes unbearable and consumes everything else, including all the "truths" they previously cherished. Now the only idea they "cherish" is their own opinion. The mature Christian accepts they may understand things differently and moves on, and waits till things become clearer one way or another. Let's say at some point in the past someone had a personal opinion on a subject which was not the official understanding at the time. Some years later though, the very opinion they had, now becomes the official teaching. Does that mean they were guilty of having the trait of an immature Christian just for having that different opinion? Obviously not. But they would have been an immature Christian had they "harbored" those thoughts to the point of advocating their opinion and becoming consumed by it.

On 6/24/2019 at 1:06 AM, Noble Berean said:

So, under what circumstances would JWs suddenly become aware that their personal ideas on the Bible have weight?

When it's not merely a personal opinion or idea but a clear unambiguous Bible teaching. This is why it's important to know your Bible well. Those who didn't get carried away with 1975 were cognizant of the scripture which clearly says "no one knows the day or hour" no matter what anyone else was saying. Some who did get carried away blamed the org. for their losses. It's up to each person how they react, in the end we stand alone in front of the judgement seat of God and render an account for ourselves, not for anyone else.

[JW Insider]

On 6/24/2019 at 1:06 AM, Noble Berean said:

"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)

The 2001 Watchtower stated this well. But what should we do when a mature Christian still does "advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding"?

Seriously, I'm sure we've all seen examples of this. What's the best way to handle it? Ignore it? Go to the person privately? Write a letter?

Another article said pretty much the same thing:

*** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

And this is how it was and probably still is possible to HIDE Pedophiles in the JW Org. 

Why ? Because it seems people like Anna and others in that Org think YOU MUST OBEY like robots. 

Hence the Elders HAVE obeyed like robots, and we have seen the terrible results. And don't try to tell me the Two Witness Rule wasn't used, because there is enough evidence Earthwide to prove it was. And the Elders, it seems, didn't even question their obedience to the GB, as opposed to the love and kindness they should have shown to victims. 

Why Oh Why do you people worship those 8 men ? They even say they are not inspired and that they err. 

And what is the point of actually having a Bible ? And what is the point of actually being able to pray in person to God and to ask for spiritual guidance ?  Only to be told by your GB and Elders, not to think for yourselves. 

Remember Life of Brian "You're all individuals"  And one guy says "I'm not".  Well it seems you lot are not individuals either.

What did J.T.R. Jr say, something about not being a 'monolinth' well some such word. James said all JW's are different and do things for different reasons. It doesn't seem so here. It seems that you all want to be robots. 

Quote from above comment  " *** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life.... " 

Well that is not happening in the JW Org that is for sure.  And when I've mentioned judgingthe JW Org by God's standards I've been criticised for it. If the Society / GB had been meek and humble then the Org would not be in such a mess, and it wouldn't need to be making massive payouts either.  I'll just repeat that line from above comment :-

One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life...

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

Well done Billy, keep on worshiping the GB or maybe pretending to worship them, whatever your motive. 

Quote  : Those early church fathers wanted to have their followers under subjection and influence of their personal teachings.

 And that is exactly the same with the Society  / GB / JW Org.  A good example was the deliberate changing of the meaning of the scripture concerning, the Superior Authorities.  

Add to that, that congregants have always been told 'not to have their own opinions of scripture, but to rely on the W/t / GB / JW Org's opinion of it all.  Quite funny really. You can own a Bible, read a Bible, pray to God, BUT don't you dare have your own opinion of scripture, and even worse it would be suicidal to mention your opinion of scripture to others. 

Quote : That meant, their personal understanding of scripture was law. 

It still is. The GB's understanding has to be accepted by all JW's. 

Why Billy thinks he is being clever by comparing the GB to people on this forum I do not know. Do any of us on here actually want to be leaders ?  I don't that's for sure.  

And as for the GB being leaders, i would say they are more like Dictators. 

[Anna]

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If the Society / GB had been meek and humble then the Org would not be in such a mess, and it wouldn't need to be making massive payouts either.  I'll just repeat that line from above comment :-

One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life...

Yes, and one of those standards is the two witness rule.

Just last night, my hubby and I were watching a series on "Evil Murderers". This particular episode was about a man who tortured and murdered 8 women. He was caught and admitted to the murders, not only that, but as proof he gave the police the names and details of what each victim had been wearing. He also told them the name of one victim who got away 15 years earlier, describing in detail how and where she got away. The police checked their records and found the surviving victim, and exactly matching details of what she had reported. The woman, who had been 21 at the time, had not been believed all these years, even though she had marks on her body. Her own mother said she made the story up. The woman ended up in counseling for years, and said she even started doubting herself. Imagine how she felt when 15 years later she was finally  vindicated. The murderer was convicted, and put on death row, but even when the criminal admits to the crimes, and even where there is undisputed proof of guilt, the criminal can appeal many times. As a consequence the appeals process takes decades to complete, and costs the taxpayer millions of dollars.

Why am I telling you this story? You will only say "we'll that is the world, you guys should be better anyway"  Well yes, I should hope we are better, and when the death penalty was in existence during Israelite times, this guy would have been executed immediately. Today, we (JWs) don't execute people obviously, however, the consequences for a crime can be severe. You all harp on about how devastating disfelliwshipping is. Do you not think that before this action can be taken it has to be established that the "sinner" really is guilty? How would you feel if you lived in Israelite times and one person falsely accused you of something deserving the death penalty, and no second witness was required? What about today. How would you feel if one person falsely accused you of something deserving disfellowshipping, and you were disfellowshipped on the basis of that one person's testimony? If you are honest, you will admit that the requirement of at least 2 witnesses would be quite desirable in that case.

As regards CSA, the org. is not in trouble because of some maliciously and wrongfully applied scripture involving the two witness rule. The org. is in trouble because it handled cases of CSA at a congregational level only, without involving outside authorities, (who by the way without adequate witnesses would not have done anything prior to the 00's either, and you know all about that, as you didn't get any justice).

 

[Anna]

38 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quite funny really. You can own a Bible, read a Bible, pray to God, BUT don't you dare have your own opinion of scripture, and even worse it would be suicidal to mention your opinion of scripture to others.

The good thing is, by the time one gets baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses one should have all those "own opinions on scripture" cleared up, otherwise one wouldn't get baptized as one of JW since one of the requirements is to agree with all 100 questions asked in the "organized book". 

[JOHN BUTLER]

As regards CSA, the org. is not in trouble because of some maliciously and wrongfully applied scripture involving the two witness rule. 

@Anna  You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want ok. 

Many victims have said that they were not believed because they did not have two witnesses to back up the facts they were giving to the elders. Many victims have said they were called liars for the same reason. Some victims have said they were even disfellowshipped because they continued to try to get justice from the Elders and the congregation.  

Carry on watching your stupid television programmes and using that as you form of judgement. I think that is dragging the bottom of the barrel as the saying goes but if it helps you ...........................  

Today, we (JWs) don't execute people obviously

The JW Org executes people spiritually. Well it tries to. It thinks it has the right to. It tries to frighten people into crawling back, begging the Org's forgiveness. 

However God's word says we should serve God through Christ, not through your GB or your Org. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

The good thing is, by the time one gets baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses one should have all those "own opinions on scripture" cleared up, otherwise one wouldn't get baptized as one of JW since one of the requirements is to agree with all 100 questions asked in the "organized book". 

Problem with that is, that so many things have been changed in the last 40 years or so that basically if it was in the world it would be breaking the contract. Even words in the NWT have been changed. It's all been discussed on here Anna. Words changed, meanings changed,  rules changed, ah but they call it 'new light'.   'This Generation' anyone ?