The 'Reasoning' book's discussion of the 'Cross'

[Ann O'Maly]

17 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

21 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

As pointed out in the OP, the WTS and its anointed have used poor source material or ignored key information to form their conclusions. False premises result in false conclusions, i.e. error.

 

Only to Sadducees, since the more recent lexicons also define it the same. Maybe you should stop arguing meaningless "Hislop" methodology, and realistically learn something new. The only thing in error is your interpretation.

Maybe you should start writing more clearly. I don't even know what any of that jumble means in relation to my comment.

[Anna]

12 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Anna: Would it be possible for a man to drag a pole that size quite some distance, perhaps over a kilometer? It seems to make more sense that the vertical poles were already in place, and secured in the ground.

Interesting how some can be so blinded that they are forced to go contrary to bible understanding to undermine simple logic, Mark 15:21 Wow! Even I was taken by surprise on this one!

The NKJV Study Bible 2014

The King on a Cross

(Matt. 27:32–44; Luke 23:26–43; John 19:17–27)

^21pThen they compelled a certain man, Simon a Cyrenian, the father of Alexander and Rufus, as he was coming out of the country and passing by, to bear His cross.

^22qAnd they brought Him to the place Golgotha, which is translated, Place of a Skull. [p.9012]

I don't see how that disqualified anything I said.....because I did also say that perhaps the stake that was carried could have been the cross piece, a smaller piece which would be nailed horizontally to the upright stake already in place...

[Evacuated]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

For what it's worth, my take on this is that there is such a wide range of possibility

There is no precise way yet to conclusively determine what was actually in Paul's mind in his use of Deut.21:22-23 relating to instrument used in Jesus murder. The analysis in the posting is interesting, and I particularly like the connection with the account regarding Haman's experience in the book of Esther.

If anything, the information presented persuades me more to the single stake view, particularly when I consider the active interest Jehovah must have taken in all the events surrounding the sacrificial death of His son Jesus. The idea (if true) that the word for stake had slipped in meaning due to custom and practice of the time, and that this would render a single pole method of execution as unusual (although not impossible), rather piques my interest. If anything, it would certainly have drawn even more attention to the event at the time, even if the detail is not specifically recorded in any extant source. I am also inclined to think that an ancient definition of the word would be more appropriate in view of Paul's reference to Deuteronomy.

However, we just cannot be sure, and for that reason I am happy to accept for now the current view we as Jehovahs Witnesses hold "the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty."  https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/did-jesus-die-on-cross/

Of course, the matter will be clarified in the future, but it is obviously more important for us now to focus on the meaning, rather than the implement, of Jesus' death.  

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

The idea (if true) that the word for stake had slipped in meaning due to custom and practice of the time, and that this would render a single pole method of execution as unusual (although not impossible), rather piques my interest.

That's an interesting take. It might suggest the reverse of a picture I saw somewhere where Jesus was on the traditional cross and the two men at his sides were both tied to poles.

However, I was thinking of how "stauros" may have changed its meaning from a simple one-piece stake and appears to have begun referring more often to the standard cross-beamed crosses by the time that word first appears in the Bible. But the word that Paul used in Galatians 3:13 was 'xylon' which is usually just the word for TREE. I don't think there was a similar transitional development of that word.over time as there was with stauros. 'Xylon' always had a variety of lesser-used meanings, but the use that looked like it might mean "stake" was rare compared to the meaning of tree and wood (i.e., made from trees). The Hebrew word Paul quoted was just like it, and usually meant tree or wood, too. In fact one of the meanings was the use in the case of Abraham and Isaac where it obviously means wooden branches.

(Genesis 22:9) 9 Finally they reached the place that the true God had indicated to him, and Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood ['etz] on it. He bound hais son Isaac hand and foot and put him on the altar on top of the wood. ['etz, same word in Deut 21:22,23.]  - NWT

Because it just meant wood or tree it could also refer to a horizontal board, as it evidently does here:

(Ezekiel 41:25, KJV) And there were made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as were made upon the walls; and there were thick planks ['etz] upon the face of the porch without. - KJV

The NWT goes an entirely different way with the same word here and makes it mean "overhang" which doesn't seem to agree with the way the LXX translators understood it.

(Ezekiel 41:25) . . .. There was also a wooden overhang on the front of the porch on the outside. - NWT

 

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I am happy to accept for now the current view we as Jehovahs Witnesses hold "the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty."

Same here. I am happy to hold the same view. It's interesting that we don't have to be dogmatic to be right.

44 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

5 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't see how that disqualified anything I said

Well it really does, if we apply the definition of every 
secular dictionary and encyclopedia with the Greek word 
" stauros σταυρός” versus “crossbeam τραβέρσα" 
therefore, Jesus didn't drag a crossbeam and according 
to secular evidence suggest those who did, would have 
that crossbeam attached to the accused back with their 
arms extended and either by tying that crossbeam with 
rope or nails voids any conclusion being "dogmatic" to 
argue against the Watchtowers understanding. Now am I 
being definitive? No! but its the most "probable".

I'm commenting on your post mostly because I needed to change the line breaks to read what you said. For some reason it stayed on a single line in my browser.

Anyway, I agree that what you are saying is possible. But it appears that the sign was made after Jesus arrived at Golgotha. Jesus apparently dragged a beam behind him. Whether it was to become a crossbeam or an upright beam, the Bible doesn't say. But in either case, he would be nailed to that beam, and that beam even if a crossbeam, could still be referred to as either a xylon or a stauros.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

or the probability that GOD would NOT have associated the “Cross”  a Pagan Symbol, to be venerated by true Christians?

True Christians would not venerate any symbol surely would they?

My thoughts are that Jehovah evidently did not interfere in his Son’s unjust trial, and He completely “forsook” him at the point of his execution, so I wonder would He then see the need to influence what torture device was used in Jesus’ execution, if for example a cross had traditionally been used by the Pagan Romans at that time? After all, it was a pagan execution. Regardless of what torture device was used it was only venerated by counterfeit Christians, and as we see, even if it had been a stake, it made no difference to them, they still like their cross.

But I chose to take the attitude of Eoin and others on here:

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

"the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty."  https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/did-jesus-die-on-cross/

 

 

[Anna]

Well I didn't really want to start a new topic, and as I was typing what I posted below, I realized it was not that off topic as I thought it would be, since the manner in which Christ was nailed to the torture device might have a direct baring on what kind of torture device it was, whether it was a stake or a cross type of thing.

But anyway, Admin thought it was better moved to its own thread.....not that I would really want to discuss it...

 

[finny]

GUNNAR SAMUELSSON

Crucifixion in Antiquity  anyone read this book?

 

[Ann O'Maly]

3 hours ago, finny said:

GUNNAR SAMUELSSON

Crucifixion in Antiquity  anyone read this book?

I've read some reviews. This one's pretty good:

https://www.academia.edu/7146106/Book_Review_Gunnar_Samuelsson_Crucifixion_in_Antiquity_An_Inquiry_into_the_Background_and_Significance_of_the_New_Testament_Terminology_of_Crucifixion

[finny]

Thank you very interesting , i will say that the pictures used in cook own book don't look like cross's

Crucifixion in the Ancient Mediterranean World,” The Bible and Interpretation

[Anna]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:45 PM, AllenSmith said:

Only if one overly exert what is meant to "forsake" meant for God allowing the pain and suffering of Christ sacrifice.

Allen, I DO know what it meant for God to have forsaken Christ. 

WT 11/ 8/15 p.16

16 The Messiah would seem forsaken by God. (Read Psalm 22:1.) In accord with prophecy, “at the ninth hour [about three o’clock in the afternoon] Jesus called out with a loud voice: ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ which means, when translated: ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” (Mark 15:34) Jesus had not lost faith in his heavenly Father. God abandoned Jesus to his enemies by taking away His protection so that Christ’s integrity might be fully tested. And by crying out as he did, Jesus fulfilled Psalm 22:1.

So my point was, would God interfere with the manner of execution, and torture device to which he was nailed to? IF traditionally the Romans used a cross, then would Jehovah make them use a stake? As I said, the whole process was wrong. Jesus was wrongfully sentenced and he was killed like an ordinary criminal. He was put into the hands of Pagans. And Jehovah let it be. So why shouldn't he be nailed to a Pagan symbol as well? That doesn't mean I necessarily believe it was a cross, but I wouldn't insist it wasn't. Because we really don't know for sure.

[Evacuated]

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

IF traditionally the Romans used a cross, then would Jehovah make them use a stake?

Depends. Maybe it was important to Jehovah. Anyway, at the moment you are right in saying 

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

we really don't know for sure

but we will know for sure in the resurrection won't we?

[Anna]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

If you have a chance to read “Crucifixion in Antiquity 2011 “

OK. Thanks