Do You Go to the Garage Content with Vice Grips, Duct Tape, and WD40?

[TrueTomHarley]

22 minutes ago, Anna said:

Although this sounds like a rhetorical question, I am sure you want someone to answer it. First another question. What's your theory?

I believe he is saying we don't have them, hence, there is no way our translating can be any good.

[Anna]

1 minute ago, TrueTom said:

I believe he is saying we don't have them, hence, there is no way our translating can be any good.

You are probably right, but I still need his reply so I can comment....

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Anna:

In the REAL world, divorced from agenda driven fantasy, there is a rule that can never be violated.

It's called the "Holy Rule of Design", and it ESPECIALLY applies to Bible translation ... that is why the best Bible Translation in the World ( 1962-2012 NWT) took ten years to make, even though labor was almost free.

Good + Fast = Expensive

Choose good and fast and we will postpone every other job, cancel all appointments and stay up 25-hours a day just to get your job done. But, don't expect it to be cheap. This supposes EXTREMELY qualified people, young, strong and motivated .. AND EDUCATED.

Good + Cheap = Slow

Choose good and cheap and we will do a great job for a discounted price, but in the case of the PRE- 2013 paraphrased "Silver Sword" , the 1962-2012 NWT 2013 it took ten years and the quality was MAGNIFICENT! (Read Jason Bedunn's unbiased "Truth in Translation", available on Amazon for a full explanation WHY).

Fast + Cheap = Inferior

Choose fast and cheap and expect AN INFERIOR job delivered on time. You truly get what you pay and in the case of translating 880 different items on a schedule is a nightmare.

Translation is NOT a science ..it is an art, and in the case of translating a paraphrased Bible (2013 NWT) into paraphrased magazines and literature, and even other bibles, also paraphrased ... something has to GIVE.  And that something is QUALITY. 

In a culture (ours) where we hang on every nuance,  and discuss everything to death ... extracting truth from something that has been paraphrased across languages to OTHER paraphrases across languages , by people OTHER than people who are talented and well educated in BOTH languages is almost impossible ... and still retain the nuances and accurate idiomatic expressions of the original.

The PERFECT real life example example of this is the 2013 NWT, which uses the word "Brazen" at least twice.  Be a sport ... REALLY look it up. Nowhere in the Bible is the word brazen used in ANY translation, before the "Silver Sword" ... not even the NWT..

If you look it up in Benjamin Wilson's "Emphatic Diaglott", which the Society bought and publishes, , or the "Kingdom Interlinear"  Translation, and look up the same scriptures, NOTHING even remotely close is there.  (As an an extremely IMPORTANT aside, The Super Secret 2010 Elders Handbook which 95% of all JWs do not even knows exist, and sisters are not permitted to read, and no one is to make copies ( but which was instantly available all over the Internet), mentioned that "brazen conduct" was a disfellowshipping offense, whatever THAT means, and they needed to PUT that word in the 2013 NWT .... Copies of the 2010 Handbook were given to the Government of Finland, and Australia for their reference,... but YOU can't read it, unless you are an elder ... but that is a whole other very, VERY  sad discussion ....).

I could go on for perhaps 20 pages about this, but I just got out of the Hospital this afternoon, and I tire easily ... fortunately I had highly qualified, highly educated, experienced doctors taking care of me. It was fast, and it was good ... but it was NOT cheap.  What made it GOOD was HIGHLY qualified experts ... because without REAL EXPERIENCED experts, you may as well hammer with a rock.

.I hope you have enough real life experiences to discern what reality is ... because the Universe will judge us impartially, and without mercy if we are wrong.

 

 

.Pick any TWO.

The Universe will not allow you to have all three..

 

[JW Insider]

7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but I just got out of the Hospital this afternoon, and I tire easily ... fortunately I had highly qualified, highly educated, experienced doctors taking care of me. It was fast, and it was good

Hope you are feeling well, and will feel even better soon. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Thank You .... I am working on it ... if I do it correctly, I MAY live.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Anna:

In the REAL world, divorced from agenda driven fantasy, there is a rule that can never be violated.

It's called the "Holy Rule of Design", and it ESPECIALLY applies to Bible translation ... that is why the best Bible Translation in the World ( 1962-2012 NWT) took ten years to make, even though labor was almost free.

Good + Fast = Expensive

Choose good and fast and we will postpone every other job, cancel all appointments and stay up 25-hours a day just to get your job done. But, don't expect it to be cheap. This supposes EXTREMELY qualified people, young, strong and motivated .. AND EDUCATED.

Good + Cheap = Slow

Choose good and cheap and we will do a great job for a discounted price, but in the case of the PRE- 2013 paraphrased "Silver Sword" , the 1962-2012 NWT 2013 it took ten years and the quality was MAGNIFICENT! (Read Jason Bedunn's unbiased "Truth in Translation", available on Amazon for a full explanation WHY).

Fast + Cheap = Inferior

Choose fast and cheap and expect AN INFERIOR job delivered on time. You truly get what you pay and in the case of translating 880 different items on a schedule is a nightmare.

Translation is NOT a science ..it is an art, and in the case of translating a paraphrased Bible (2013 NWT) into paraphrased magazines and literature, and even other bibles, also paraphrased ... something has to GIVE.  And that something is QUALITY. 

In a culture (ours) where we hang on every nuance,  and discuss everything to death ... extracting truth from something that has been paraphrased across languages to OTHER paraphrases across languages , by people OTHER than people who are talented and well educated in BOTH languages is almost impossible ... and still retain the nuances and accurate idiomatic expressions of the original.

The PERFECT real life example example of this is the 2013 NWT, which uses the word "Brazen" at least twice.  Be a sport ... REALLY look it up. Nowhere in the Bible is the word brazen used in ANY translation, before the "Silver Sword" ... not even the NWT..

If you look it up in Benjamin Wilson's "Emphatic Diaglott", which the Society bought and publishes, , or the "Kingdom Interlinear"  Translation, and look up the same scriptures, NOTHING even remotely close is there.  (As an an extremely IMPORTANT aside, The Super Secret 2010 Elders Handbook which 95% of all JWs do not even knows exist, and sisters are not permitted to read, and no one is to make copies ( but which was instantly available all over the Internet), mentioned that "brazen conduct" was a disfellowshipping offense, whatever THAT means, and they needed to PUT that word in the 2013 NWT .... Copies of the 2010 Handbook were given to the Government of Finland, and Australia for their reference,... but YOU can't read it, unless you are an elder ... but that is a whole other very, VERY  sad discussion ....).

I could go on for perhaps 20 pages about this, but I just got out of the Hospital this afternoon, and I tire easily ... fortunately I had highly qualified, highly educated, experienced doctors taking care of me. It was fast, and it was good ... but it was NOT cheap.  What made it GOOD was HIGHLY qualified experts ... because without REAL EXPERIENCED experts, you may as well hammer with a rock.

.I hope you have enough real life experiences to discern what reality is ... because the Universe will judge us impartially, and without mercy if we are wrong.

 

 

.Pick any TWO.

The Universe will not allow you to have all three..

 

JTR, thank you for the equations. First I should mention that I used to be a professional translator and proof reader, just letting you know so that you are aware that I do at least half way know what I am talking about. Yes, translation, the real thing, is a lot more complex than people who speak only one language realize. This is not to put anyone who speaks only one language down, it's just to explain that unless you know another language, it may be difficult to understand just how complex it is to translate, and that it's not just about translating words, but about convening the RIGHT meaning in the target language. Don't think Google translator. If you have ever read something translated into English by Google, you will know what I mean.

Now I am assuming that when Geoffrey Jackson and others elaborate on the importance of reaching the heart of someone with the use of their mother tongue, then that means that the translation should be of superior quality. You will probably agree that the source language we JW's usually translate from is English. (There are some exceptions, as in life stories from other countries etc.). Anyway, not meaning to offend any native English speakers, English is a relative easy language to learn, when compared with many other languages. I know, since English is not my mother tongue. Now for a translator, who obviously speaks more than one language, it is more important to know the target language better than the source language, preferably the target language should be the one he knows from birth. Some have the privilege of growing up in a bilingual home (or even multilingual) where both parents speak a different language and so then the translator may speak both languages equally well, but this is quite rare since one language usually dominates over the other. So when we think of the source language as being English, and the target language as being the native language of the translator, then you might begin to understand that it is quite possible for a quality translation of the target language to be produced. We have to assume of course that the translator is well educated in their mother tongue as I am sure you have met plenty of native English speakers who can't put an intelligent sentence together nor can they spell to save their life. One mustn't forget invaluable aids such as a Thesaurus in the target language. This is an invaluable aid, at least for me, especially when I need to find an alternative word to better express what the passage is saying and my memory has had a relapse. The interesting thing is that one sentence can be said in so many different ways and also convey the correct meaning, so much so, that sometimes the translator is faced with a dilemma to have to chose which sentence should ultimately be used. I could go on and on about the joys of translation, but the point I am trying to make is that; it is quite possible to produce good quality translations in a short period of time for free if the translator's target language is their native language, and if they are dedicated and willing to do it for Jehovah. I can attest to that regarding at least one language, my mother tongue, the translation of which is of native quality. One last thing to remember is that we ARE an international multilingual brotherhood so there is always going to be plenty of native speakers in almost every language.

P.S I have not read Jason BeDuhn's book but I have heard he made some favorable comments about the NWT. Oh and I have read the Elders manual.

 

[Anna]

I meant conveying, not convening!  

[Anna]

I wrote this late last night, and this morning I thought of a couple of additional factors contributing to the out of the ordinary results of JW translation. One is that our language, "the language of truth" is not complicated, it is pretty straight forward and hence also pretty easy to translate fast. Second, the translators, for the most part, are very familiar with "the language of truth" and so do not have to ponder the meanings the writer was trying to convey, this also contributes to efficiency and speed. I am sure there are more factors but these are the two I can think of right now...

One more thing, you alluded to it yourself, the org. is a stickler for accuracy, I very much doubt it would allow for inferior work, knowing the website can be viewed by anyone.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

.

Anna

I realize that accuracy depends on your definition definition of what precision is.

Please do the research on the word "brazen" I mentioned earlier, and read the book "Truth in Translation" I mentioned earlier. ... an see if your opinions remain the same.

After you have done the homework, I would very much like to hear your considered opinion.

.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Please do the research on the word "brazen"

I've heard you express problems with this word before. I don't have a problem with it because, well, it's a word and it is a fair match for the Greek "a-sel'geia." The word "brazen" is a little dated, but not obsolete. Personally I would have gone with "shameless" because it fits the meaning of the original word as a negated word and "a-selgeia" is negative in the way amoral means without morals, and shameless means without shame. But the original word does include a sense of "strength" or "boldness," which could get lost in the simpler "shameless," where the sense of boldness is not always implied. Greek writers outside the Bible used it often with reference to the same idea that is heard in the cliché or hackneyed phrase: "brazen hussy" (in the sense of "wanton woman" "shameless prostitute").

Quote

Definition of brazen - [Merriam-Webster]

1. 1 :  made of brass <drinking from brazen cups>

2. 2a :  sounding harsh and loud like struck brass <the horrible brazen voice of the fire bell — Elmer Davis>b :  of the color of polished brass

3. 3 :  marked by shameless or disrespectful boldness <a brazen disregard for the rules>

 

There is another small problem in that it's the third of three primary definitions, which allows for an ambiguity or perhaps a small delay in understanding by a first time reader. But that's not an important issue here.

In any case, it was intended to fix a poor translation in the previous pre-2013 NWT where we used "loose" as in "loose" morals, "loose" conduct. (compare "loose woman" to "brazen hussy.") This is inaccurate, because someone who plays loose with the rules is not necessarily either bold or shameless. It can be like the difference between the archaic meaning of "licentious" and the current meaning. (Archaic: someone who disregards accepted conventions, as in "poetic license" and Modern: unprincipled and promiscuous.) Even the current definition is not quite strong enough to cover the bold/shameless idea of "aselgeia" well enough.

In combination with a couple of contexts about prostitution in the Hebrew Scriptures, I think "brazen" makes for a fair translation of a couple of the ideas is Hebrew, too. In those cases the idea of "boldness" is probably stronger than "shameless" and "brazen" might even be a better word to translate the Hebrew.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.

Anna

I realize that accuracy depends on your definition definition of what precision is.

Please do the research on the word "brazen" I mentioned earlier, and read the book "Truth in Translation" I mentioned earlier. ... an see if your opinions remain the same.

After you have done the homework, I would very much like to hear your considered opinion.

.

Precision itself is ambiguous, and relative. Something can be precisely translated but logically it also has to convey the correct meaning.

Just this morning at the breakfast table we had a bit of fun with "bon appetit". Translating this phrase literally, or you could say precisely, could surely insult someone especially if they were rather corpulent.

I realize that as an engineer, your definition of precision will be different to what it means to a translator for example. Also, precision depends on the circumstance, in other words it depends on the text you are translating. A technical text obviously has to be translated in a different way to a non technical text. In this case precision does play a role. I wouldn't want to fly in a plane constructed by someone according to instructions that were translated with "artistic license".

I will take a look at brazen and "Truth in translation" sometime and will let you know what I think.

[Anna]

JWI pretty much nailed the meaning of "brazen"

The glossary in the revised NWT also mentions: From the Greek a·selʹgei·a........ boldly contemptuous attitude; a spirit that betrays disrespect or even contempt for authority, laws, and standards. The expression does not refer to wrong conduct of a minor nature.