Do Jehovahs Witnesses shun Child Victims of Sexual Abuse

[Evacuated]

18 minutes ago, Anna said:

Being unfairly imprisoned, and being sexually abused and raped as a child is quite different, at least in my opinion.

Amen to that! I don't know why we are bringing Jehovah into this at all!

[Guest]

Reo Raifa I am 50 years old and when I was around 19 my unbaptized step sister was disassociated from the congregation for her behavior!  People were to treat her as if she was disfellowshipped!  However I think in the early 90s, we refined our thinking on this and we quit disassociating unbaptized members!  That hasn't been in effect for a long time!  Maybe this particular teen was very rebellious and the families thought it unwise to be around them!  I myself became very rebellious as a teenager, I know what rebels can be like!  Our teachings are that we never give up on the wrongdoer though, and if the kids change they are welcomed back!  Even with adult wrongdoers that are disfellowshipped, the elders are encouraged to pay visits from time to time and inquire if they would like to work toward a goal of returning, and we assist them if they do want to!  Sometimes disfellowshipped ones are even given rides to the meetings

Anna, if you are a Jehovah's Witness, you are speaking against the organization and that borders on apostasy!  As Jehovah's Witnesses, we know Jehovah's spirit is with us, and I think that is terrible that you just said that the governing body needs to wear "big boy pants"!  You were not involved in the hearings and you are judging from afar! 

People sometimes do that in the congregation, when someone is disfellowshipped or reproved, some of the brothers and sisters make judgmental comments, and we have been warned against that!  The meetings are in private and we may not be party to some piece of information, so we should just mind our own business!  Even if something would later come out that the person was disfellowshipped unfairly, we are not supposed to be weighing in and giving our two cents

Secular governments are not fair to us, as is the recent situation in Russia, nor are the courts!  I have no doubt that many on the commission have sincere motives and want to help kids, but from what I read they weren't fair to us! And there are other people that don't like us and want to think the worst!  JWs have lost custody of kids in divorces, because they wouldn't teach the kid evolution, or because of the potential of the kids someday possible needing a transfusion!  They are biased against us and some want to believe he worst

The Law is supposed to set the gold standard as to what is right, and if in some cases they don't require reporting, how can JWs be faulted?  The JWs admitted that sometimes they do go beyond the requirements if they feel the situation merits it!  What goes on in a home is not an institutional issue, but a family issue!  The family can report their own situation to authorities, further the elders are careful when something is only an allegation!  They could be sued if they wrongfully report a person!  They are between a rock and a hard place

Even if some things were mishandled in certain situations, the elders are not always sure how to deal with a complicated situation, they are volunteers!  The fact that we disfellowship molesters shows that we don't wink at badness, but go beyond what other religions do

When there are unproven allegations, the elders observe the accused at outings and events! 

I think it is best that we spend our time studying the Bible, rather than reading lengthy reports put out by a worldly organization against us!  We could be using our time to preach Jehovah's Kingdom!  I think it is awful that kid's are molested, but rank and file members are not supposed to be trying to figure out how to manage the situation, the elders and society are, and Jehovah will correct them if need be, not us! 

If you personally knew of some circumstance, that would be different, but you are trying to judge other people's situations

The only reason that I read anything in that report or asked about this is because I would like to be able to answer people's questions if they should come up

It is first and foremost the parent's responsibility to protect their kids!  If a man (it usually is a man, but could be female too) molests a child and the mom becomes aware, she should go to the authorities! 

If a child is old enough, then they should go to the authorities!  Elders have offered to go with them

The governing body is of the anointed and they didn't rise to the level that they did for no reason!  I think we need to be careful, because we could become like the Israelites that spoke against Moses!  If you are a mother, you should watch your kids carefully, don't let them be alone with a JW brother if they seem iffy!  People like that leave clues, they often hang around with kids too much and give other signs

Parents should also have a talk with their kids, explain what molestation is and that they should never let an adult do certain things, and should tell them if it happens

I don't think we should say anything more about this, we should channel our efforts into reading God's word and witnessing to others and supporting the elders and governing body

I am not going to read or respond to anything more that you say on this topic as arguing disappoints Jehovah, and non-JWs come here and read this stuff too, we want to set a good example

[Guest]

Eoin Joyce, I resent you quoting Anna about what I said and saying "amen"  I did not say anything wrong, and if it seems that way, it is because people are reading into it!  I did not compare Joseph being imprisoned to sexually molesting a child in the sense that she is implying!  She took something that I said about Jehovah correcting matters in his due time, and she said that when it comes to a child that there is no better time!  Jehovah doesn't immediately put a stop to wrongdoing, I was fondled against my will by a fellow student in the fifth grade and every morning before school, I would pray that Jehovah not let him do it, and the kid paid attention to me in a sexual way the whole year long!  So Jehovah doesn't immediately make things go way, and I gave the example of Joseph suffering wrongdoing for years also!  There was nothing wrong with what I said and what often happens is that the other party hears what you say, doesn't know your motives, and put their own spin on it!  Then someone like you comes along, you know even less about what I meant, and you agree with her!  Anna took a snippet of what I said and commented on it! I have a strong suspicion that Jehovah doesn't want us to be on a site like this airing all of this dirty laundry to begin with!  If I am going to be attacked for what I say, then I will just leave this site all together

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, Nicola said:

I resent you quoting Anna about what I said and saying "amen

Sorry you have feelings of resentment. "Amen" expresses my complete agreement with a view that Anna (not you) has posted. However, feeling resentment is an unpleasant experience for you, and not the intention of my comment. I can appreciate your own experiences as described above make this a sensitive area for you.

However, I feel there is absolutely no comparison possible between Joseph's experience of imprisonment in Egypt and the unthinkable horror a child must go through when subject to molestation by someone who, in some cases, they may well have looked to for protection and love. That is before we start to consider the inexcusable reproach that is heaped upon Jehovah's name and the reputation of all Jehovah's Witnesses, when someone claiming to be one of us perpetrates such a despicable crime.

Even a cursory examination of the factors involved in Joseph's case reveal that, despite the indisputable injustice he experienced over the course of many years, he was well aware of Jehovah sustaining him and intervening in his circumstance to enable him to enjoy privileged conditions, albeit a prisoner. Additionally he was also well aware that, overall, Jehovah had a specific purpose in allowing him to serve instrumentally for the salvation of the line of the promised seed. Gen.45:5-7.

This has no resemblance to the experience of abused children and quite frankly, I resent the association of Jehovah in anything which would contribute to some imagined purpose in Him allowing such depraved behaviour. This is the same Jehovah who referred to child abuse in His condemnation of the Israelites when speaking through Jeremiah the prophet:

"Furthermore, they built the high places of Baʹal in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Moʹlech, something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing" Jer.32:35.

I know that an awareness of the bigger picture regarding the universal issues of Jehovah's sovereignty and the slur on the integrity of Jehovah's servants are factors in why Jehovah has allowed wickedness for a time. But we must remember that, even in the case of Job, limits were set by Jehovah as to how far Satan could go in his vain attempts to prove his lying claims (Job 1:12). Satan has far exceeded those limits in connection with imperfect humans. Child abuse is one example of this.
 

[Guest-00]

19 hours ago, Anna said:

Judging the mother and telling her what she should or shouldn't do with her son is wrong obviously.  But it is the other parents right if they decide they do not want their children to associate with the son for fear of bad association. It all depends on the situation. I have experienced quite a few cases like this, where the unbaptized teen decides they no longer want to attend, but it went hand in hand with also not wanting to associate with members of the congregation outside of the meetings either, but rather choosing worldly friends with whom they could go and do their "worldly things" as is the case when one wants to quit the truth. However, many decide to quit their worldly ways and come back and that is when they will find much support (or should). One of the unbaptized sons of a single sister in our congregation stopped going to meetings and went to live with his girlfriend. He and his girlfriend came to the memorial this year and everyone was very nice to both of them. The son looked completely at ease, talking with his former friends and they talking with him. The sisters even took his girlfriend under their wing and invited her to go to cross fit with them. I don't know where this will end, but the son knows that if he wants to come back any time, he will be most welcomed. And for just one of his steps in the right direction, the friends will take two to meet him more than half way.

If someone has been abused, and chooses to stay away from meetings the friends will try and encourage that one and show them mercy, but you will find as a rule it is the abused person who doesn't want that either. They are the ones who want to quit associating with Witnesses period, regardless of whether they are at the Kingdom hall or not.

What’s better, to humbly accept counsel even if it may be unjustifiably harsh or unfair, or to try and make excuses or minimize the situation? You know the answer.

I agree, the ARC were handling things from a secular point of view, and therefore found it difficult at times to understand our Bible based view. But again, the only objective here is to protect the children and find a balance between what the secular view is and Bible principles. I think the GB wear big boy’s pants and we need not worry about them and feel we need to run to their defense. I do not think they have been too upset by the investigation and about being corrected, and do not need our sympathies or protection. Nothing bad has happened. A few insufficiencies were found which needed correcting. There are insufficiencies in all strata of society and regularly need to be assessed and revised. Also in our organization, and it has been the case as you know. Of course this is Satan’s world and so humans will never achieve a perfect solution, and neither will we as an organization because we too are imperfect.

Being unfairly imprisoned, and being sexually abused and raped as a child is quite different, at least in my opinion.

I respectfully disagree. We are not cold, dispassionate, robots, programmed to do as ordered. We are biological, thinking, feeling and reasoning, beings. To speak as though it is only ever the problem of the person who stays away is a misstep of logic. We know the brothers are not completely equiped with the tools they need to handle these matters appropriately, hence they are in court. We also know the brothers are  imperfect and can make mistakes even terrible ones. If an unbaptised teenager is feeling "pressured" to come to meetings, that is actually a form of emotional abuse and can have long lasting mental and emotional effects on the person. 

It was only a short time, and that person actually came to a meeting - what would you do? - no one [that had shuunned him] came up to and welcomed him. They visibly turned their backs to him at the meeting. He was not disassociated, he was not disfellowshipped, but he might as well have been. Further, [He had a] brother who was loyal and kept coming to meetings was also avoided because of his brother's decision. Others stopped inviting him gatherings - do you really think that was what Jesus meant by... "by this all will know you are my disciples?"

 

[Guest]

Eoin Joyce I did not compare Joseph to sexual victims in the way you imagine!  Anna misunderstood me and said something, and you replied and also misinterpreted me!  I was telling Anna that she should not be critical of the society!  Some of what she was agreeing with the commission on, was not fair, and I said that if the society did make mistakes that was up to Jehovah to decide and correct!  We are not supposed to be murmuring against them, especially in social media!  I said that in time Jehovah would straighten things out, then she questioned that statement because she felt molestation should be acted on immediately!  I didn't say it shouldn't be, it is being dealt with right now, I was saying that we ourselves should hold back from our criticisms and let Jehovah deal with it!  I added that he deals with things in his time, and brought up Joseph!  I did not make a close comparison of what Joseph went through and what the children go through so it is a strawman to criticize me for something that I didn't do!  Then you read her analysis of what she thinks I meant and agreed with her, when I didn't mean it that way at all, and you are still speaking as though I meant it that way

Eoin Joyce, I am reading on and you really think I was comparing Joseph to what a child victim goes through, don't you?  I do not like people going into deep explanations to me about how my comparison was wrong, when I never compared it to begin with, at least not in the way you imagine!  Why are you telling me all this?

[Anna]

6 hours ago, Reo Raifha said:

If an unbaptised teenager is feeling "pressured" to come to meetings, that is actually a form of emotional abuse and can have long lasting mental and emotional effects on the person. 

I respectfully disagree with you there. Children are the parents responsibility, and as long as the child lives under the parents roof then the parents have the right to expect certain behavior from their children no matter how old. I am not saying that "pressuring" is the right thing to do, but it is certainly the right and duty of the parents to expect their child to accompany them to what they consider to be an important part of their upbringing. When the children understand that this is what is expected of them until they leave home, then this should not cause any mental dissonance.

14 minutes ago, Nicola said:

I was telling Anna that she should not be critical of the society! 

I was not being critical of the society

[Guest]

Reo Raifha People are too apt to call everything "abuse" nowadays when it isn't!  Parents sometimes make poor choices when raising kids, but that doesn't mean it rises to the level of abuse!  It is fair to expect your child to go to the Kingdom Hall with you, but on the other hand, some children can be so rebellious that the parent may decide not to make them, and no one should criticize the parent's decision!  As far as a kid being traumatized by being pressured to going to the KH, that is not true!  Yelling at kids, calling names, beating them are things that traumatize, not pressuring to go to meetings

When the kid go to a meeting, you said no one talked to him!  They should have welcomed him back!  Shame on them

[Anna]

@Nicola you seem to be writing an awful lot of stuff considering you think we should not be discussing any of this. And you are awfully bossy telling people what they should or shouldn't do.

[Guest]

Anna I am writing stuff in defense of the society,  I did not say that we shouldn't be discussing this although I do think it was unfortunate someone started the discussion, I am merely defending the governing body!  And please don't insult me, I am a sister and calling me bossy is rude!  I have the right to stand up for the society against murmuring!  And you are being as bossy as you are claiming that I am, because you are arguing with various people!  Please don't talk to me anymore, I quit talking to you when I saw how you were speaking against the society, it reminded me of an apostate!  I was speaking to Reo just now, and I did not say anything bossy to him!  You were the one arguing with him!  All that I said was that people are too quick to call things abuse, that is not bossing him around!  I actually agreed with some things that he said!  Please don't insult me anymore, I said I was through with you! The only other one that I exchanged words with was the one who "amened" you for your wrong assessment of me, claiming that I meant something which I didn't, then that one ignored it when I said I didn't and went on about it anyway!  I am actually considering leaving here, because I don't see a lot of godly behavior here

[Evacuated]

9 hours ago, Nicola said:

Why are you telling me all this?

Do you think I'm telling you all this? This is a public forum, not a private chatroom don't forget. However, I will address the following comments specifically to the points you have raised.

I have heard Joseph in Egypt and children in abusive situations mentioned before in parallel for various reasons by persons other than yourself. I object strongly to the general assertion or inference that the suffering of children has any value or place in anything that Jehovah is accomplishing no matter how tenuous. I find any connecting of Jehovah's name to the heinous practice of child abuse to be disgusting in the least. And that regardless of the intention. The only compensating factor, save the welcome bringing to man's harsh justice now of these miserable perpetrators (Rom.13:4), is the fact that, for those victims who survive and who are able to draw close to Jehovah, there is the prospect of Isaiah 65:17 being fulfilled: "the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart".

What we mean to say and what others might draw from what we say is a very important consideration we should take prior to voicing our views publicly. Personally, I welcome the opportunity to share in a forum like this because, among other things, it trains thinking ability, enables me to test the soundness of a view, and to adjust when an error, weakness, or ambiguity is exposed. Surely that is one of the lessons contained in Proverbs 12:17: "The first to state his case seems right, until the other party comes and cross-examines him".

However I would respectfully point out the warning given at the beginning of this "Controversial Posts" section of the forum: Only enter this section if you feel strong enough spiritually to defend yourself biblically. This is an area where topics that arouse strong feelings are discussed. This means that views you may present here will be will be subject to what you might feel is rather overly rigorous scrutiny. And as this may well be by persons who do not share your faith or principle, this scrutiny could be aggressively critical, hence the entry caution.

However, many of us have been witnesses for even longer than yourself, and just because we do not agree with what you say or how perhaps you present what you  say, it does not mean we are attacking or opposing you personally. And in no way does it justify being termed in response, insultingly, as apostate!

You could welcome the opportunity to test (and improve) the incisiveness of your argumentation in the spirit of Pro.27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man [woman] sharpens his [her] friend".

[Guest]

Eoin Joyce How many times do I have to tell you that I was not comparing Joseph to children abuse victims!  I am used to explaining myself once and having people believe me and not insist I meant something I didn't!  Could you please not speak to me anymore?  I find this very disturbing, what is going on here!  On another post some JW man is saying that he doesn't believe the society should disfellowship, and another brother is agreeing with him!  Then people here are saying they don't agree with the society!  Then a sister claimed that I was comparing Joseph with abuse victims, and I wasn't, then you agreed with her and twice I explained that I didn't mean that and you still are acting like I did!  I am not sure how to delete my account here, but I email whoever runs it and asked!  Until then, could you not engage with me?  I dont think this is a site that JWs should hang out in