Jehovah’s Witnesses former members tell court they were subjected to ‘total control’

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

 

My favourite is:

*** w62 5/15 p. 320 Questions From Readers ***
● Is there any objection to a dedicated Christian minister’s belonging to a nudist group or living at a nudist camp or resort?—M. D., United States.
 

Well? Don't just sit there. Tell me if I can do it or not.

One brother said about such articles: "I read the question, then I skip to the end to see if I can do it or not."

Alright, alright, he was not being serious. He was kidding. But there were likely some who did it just that way. After all, it's not a joke unless there's a kernel of truth in it. People are people, inside God's organization or out.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

*** w62 5/15 p. 320 Questions From Readers ***
● Is there any objection to a dedicated Christian minister’s belonging to a nudist group or living at a nudist camp or resort?—M. D., United States.

Actually the answer is VERY simple ....Jehovah God made Adam and Eve and thought it was perfectly OK to walk around naked..... It was Adam and Eve deciding FOR THEMSELVES THAT THEY WERE NAKED ... and took upon themselves opinions and doctrines that Jehovah God NEVER even suggested.  Had they not sinned by choosing THEIR standards over GOD'S standards, the logical extrapolation of that is that all their children would have walked around naked WITH them.

Being a taboo is NOT from God.... it is from self-made cultural taboos. 

The list of them would fill up a large city telephone book ... if they make those, anymore.

It's morally wrong to try and enslave someone else to error .... and pathetically morally wrong to ENSLAVE OURSELVES!

That having been said ... and it is VERY true ... the last time I was in the hospital for four days, I refused to wear that silly open back gown, and wore Levis and a long sleeve shirt the whole time. ... you know ... in case Mars Attacks!

Adam and Eve chose for THEMSELVES what was "the knowledge of good and evil" and "cultural taboos were born, abandoning Jehovah's knowledge of good and evil ... which in this case, he cared NOTHING about.

Sorta like the current non-biblical shunning policy, the way it is currently practiced.

I will be civil and polite, and generous with ANYONE who is civil, polite, and generous to me ... but I am keeping the Levis.

.

 

.

 

[Queen Esther]

Hahaha......  I  like  your  report,  Brother  @James Thomas Rook Jr.    and  I  agree  with  you !

Btw.  I  also  prefer  the  LEVIS.....

[Anna]

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Being a taboo is NOT from God.... it is from self-made cultural taboos. 

This is what I always say when the friends start quibbling over how short is too short on a skirt, or how tight is too tight on some pants. Perhaps all that would be solved if we were all naked  

[TrueTomHarley]

40 minutes ago, Anna said:

This is what I always say when the friends start quibbling over how short is too short on a skirt, or how tight is too tight on some pants. Perhaps all that would be solved if we were all naked  

There ought to be a 'dress and grooming' servant in each congregation so that everyone else could forget about such nonsense and focus on things more important. Sigh....if only the sleazy style hawkers in the commercial world would leave people alone.

[TrueTomHarley]

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

• Is it OK to believe that all the creative days were not exactly 7,000 years long?
• Is it OK to believe in 587 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem?
• And, my favorite, "Is it OK to believe in evolution, at least while I'm still in school?" 

I like the frank statement in Paragraph 12 of Sunday's Watchtower stuydy: “The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.”
 
There is no finer way to get some grumblers going than to say: “oh, we changed that.” Hostile people scour past publications, discover where you’ve once said ‘A’, whereas now you say ‘B,’ and pounce all over the ‘flip-flop.’ They thereby reveal that they themselves reason like 10-year olds.
 
It's not a piece of cake looking into the future - everyone knows that - so if you mess up, you back up and tackle the subject anew. We do it all the time. For decades, we have spoken of ‘tacking’ and the ‘light getting brighter.’ What is that if not an admission that we’ve often been wrong? We’re very open about it. So when the grousers come around with their grousing over teachings that have changed, they look pretty silly if they harp on it – we’ve never said that they don’t. There are many examples in the Bible of faithful ones doing or saying things that did not pan out.
 
The logical extension of this is that with any new understanding, one can always accept it as tentative, the best understanding available at the moment. Nobody expects you to herald these new understandings from the rooftops. They are not the basic fabric of the truth that we teach to our Bible students – they are for our own edification. So long as you don’t go setting yourself up as a counter-authority with your ‘better understanding,’ everybody gets along just fine.

It’s all a matter of respect for authority versus contempt for authority. That point the Governing Body just clarified? You may have noticed that point some time ago in your own private study of the Bible. And if this was the greater church world, you would have run out and started up your own sect over it. Instead, we wait on the human authority Jehovah has provided.

One character hoo-haws over the fact that growth among Western nations is quite modest and sometimes has even reversed. He thus reveals his bias that these are the only people who matter. One explanation for what he observes is that nowhere is contempt for authority of any sort more prevalent than in the West – independence is the revered goal held before all here. Another is the effect of this world’s ‘higher education,’ which pushes with all its might an atheistic view. 
 

[bruceq]

      TrueTomHarley  " There is no finer way to get some grumblers going than to say: “oh, we changed that."

I think it is great that we have had 51 new adjustments in understanding especially related to Great Tribulation and prophecies in just the last 10 years. That compares with the same amount in the previous 50 years showing the end is very near  as the Scriptures say: "

 

 ⁹  See, the first things have come to pass; Now I am declaring new things. Before they spring up, I tell you about them.” Isa.42:9

 

and " ⁷  For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter  to his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7.

TrueTomHarley "One character hoo-haws over the fact that growth among Western nations is quite modest and sometimes has even reversed. He thus reveals his bias that these are the only people who matter"

I am sure the people outside the ark were also "hoo-hawing" once the rain started and saying "hey there are only 8 people in that ark why is Jehovah so concerned with quality of people and not quantity"?

[AveragePub]

Why would the question about being a nudist even be asked?  If one is unable to answer for themselves, then they do not know God.

[Anna]

6 hours ago, AveragePub said:

Why would the question about being a nudist even be asked?  If one is unable to answer for themselves, then they do not know God.

Nudism (in nudist camps) is not equated with immorality as far as I know. It is possible, if humans had not sinned, they would have remained nude, or if not nude all the time, nudity would not have been inappropriate, so someone could reason that the nudist colony type of nudism is like being back in paradise.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The logical extension of this is that with any new understanding, one can always accept it as tentative, the best understanding available at the moment. Nobody expects you to herald these new understandings from the rooftops. They are not the basic fabric of the truth that we teach to our Bible students – they are for our own edification. So long as you don’t go setting yourself up as a counter-authority with your ‘better understanding,’ everybody gets along just fine.

Well put

[Guest]

James Thomas Rook Jr, are you a Jehovah's Witness or an ex member?  I just wonder why you would say that you don't agree with the disfellowshipping principle and even if you think it is going too far, why you would publicly broadcast that?  There was an elder who figured out the meaning of some scripture and believed that the society was wrong in their interpretation, and he held back from saying anything!  Eventually the society did refine the teaching and the elder was right!  But even though he knew the true meaning before they did, he sat on it and didn't jump ahead of the organization!  We are supposed to have a waiting attitude and respect the arrangement

[bruceq]

On 5/6/2017 at 5:13 AM, Nicola said:

James Thomas Rook Jr, are you a Jehovah's Witness or an ex member?  I just wonder why you would say that you don't agree with the disfellowshipping principle and even if you think it is going too far, why you would publicly broadcast that?  There was an elder who figured out the meaning of some scripture and believed that the society was wrong in their interpretation, and he held back from saying anything!  Eventually the society did refine the teaching and the elder was right!  But even though he knew the true meaning before they did, he sat on it and didn't jump ahead of the organization!  We are supposed to have a waiting attitude and respect the arrangement

  Well said. The same happened in the Fist Century when Jesus said to eat his blood and flesh which his hearers knew was wrong yet many left following him anyway without a hint of respect for the signs that indicated he was the true one that was to come. If they just waited they would have been blessed. Many other examples like Korah and so on...You would think some would learn such principles if they only read the Bible instead of being complainers. Jehovah does not like ANY complainers or murmurers for obvious reasons such as in Numbers chp. 16 where Korah's arguments sound EXACTLY like JTR's with the tryanny "Now do you also want to make yourself an absolute ruler over us? as well as "Why, then, should you exalt yourselves above the congregation of Jehovah? Num 16. Jehovah says showing such disrespect to his human reps was showing disrespect to Him. And we know what happened.

On 5/2/2017 at 0:26 PM, bruceq said:

TrueTomHarley "One character hoo-haws over the fact that growth among Western nations is quite modest and sometimes has even reversed. He thus reveals his bias that these are the only people who matter"

   Of course as the end nears the world is becoming more secular and athiest and agnostics are the fastest growing religion for that reason. However here is an interesting article:

https://priceonomics.com/jehovahs-witnesses-a-case-study-in-viral-marketing/

Note this quote below :" But Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually net-positive. Despite their heavy leakage, Jehovah’s Witnesses are the largest Christian group gaining American membership. They’re winners!"

 

Jehovah's Witnesses: A Case Study in Viral Marketing

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Art from a Watch Tower tract

Do you still hold your parents’ faith? If they raised you a Jehovah’s Witness, it’s likely your answer is, “No.” There’s over a 6 in 10 chance, in fact.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses have their origins in a 1870’s religious movement, called the “Bible Student Movement”. Charles Taze Russell’s independent bible study lead him and his cohort to novel interpretations of the bible, which they codified and disseminated through publications like Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ Magazine. The church’s Governing Body -- which is responsible for refining the church’s interpretation of the bible -- is a group of seven men, and is based in Brooklyn. They still oversee the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society corporation, which was formed in 1884 to distribute the movement’s tracts and bibles.

Like many organized religions Jehovah’s Witnesses have their fair share of rituals, prophesy, and dogma. They refuse blood transfusions, believe that Armageddon will happen within in our lifetimes, and they abstain from holidays with “pagan origins” -- including Easter, Christmas, and birthdays.

But what tends to set Jehovah’s Witnesses apart in American society is their commitment to evangelism. All baptized members of the church are considered ‘ordained ministers’ and termed “publishers.” This authority comes with a mandate: publishers are required to go out and preach to the best of their ability. Hence the armies friendly young Jehovah’s Witnesses in their suits, spending their Saturday going door to door with bibles and armfuls of colorfully-illustrated Watch Tower pamphlets.

"Jehovah's Witnesses are known for preaching from house to house" (Wikipedia)

On the point of house-to-house ministry, the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization quotes the bible: “Jesus told his followers to “make disciples of people of all the nations.” (Matthew 28:19, 20)” But unlike many of the more common Christian denominations, Jehovah’s Witnesses are required to report back on their evangelical efforts to a central organization.

If a baptized Jehovah’s Witness fails to submit reports monthly, they’re termed “irregular” and investigated by the community elders. If he or she fails to submit a report for six consecutive months, the publisher is termed “inactive”. Extreme breaches of conduct can result in disfellowshipping -- i.e. banning from the community. The church tracks “active” publishers as its main membership statistic.

"How often do you attend religious services?" Pew Survey

When you consider the fact that 39% of self-identifying Catholics attend religious services in the range of “A few times a year” and “Never” -- or the 46% of Mainline Protestants, 45% of Jews, 68% of Buddhists -- Jehovah’s Witnesses have a comparatively steep requirement for membership. The cultures of these faiths allow for individuals to affiliate informally, with minimal external, measurable engagement. Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, keep track of who is in and who is out and keep track of their participation. They don’t practice infant baptism for this same reason: “Instead of specifying an age to get baptized, God’s Word describes the spiritual condition of those qualified to take that step [...] baptism is for those who are already disciples of Christ.” To be in, you really have to be in.

It’s to be expected that this opt-in system and paperwork-heavy user experience would cause a terrible churn rate. This is not a seamless religion by any stretch.

A Highly Competitive Marketplace

When Pew Research Center surveyed Americans on their religious affiliations, they reported that the United States has a “very competitive marketplace”: “every major religious group is simultaneously gaining and losing adherents.”

A lot of this dynamism is lost in top-line statistics. For example, about a third of all Americans raised Catholic no longer identify as Catholic, but the percentage of the population made up of Catholics has remained relatively stable for the past several decades because these multitudes have been offset by new immigrants to the U.S. identifying as Catholic.

These attrition rates start to look pretty good, however, next to some other numbers. Jehovah’s Witnesses have the lowest retention rate of all the groups -- that’s them all the way on the right. 63% of Americans who were raised Jehovah’s Witness say they aren’t Jehovah’s Witness anymore.

Still “Winning”

But as our bar chart shows, the large religious groups that allow for more informal membership are losing members too -- every major religious group is. According to Pew, 44% of all adult Americans have changed their religious affiliation, and the group that has grown the most by a long shot is the sector of Americans who claim no religious affiliation.

By Pew’s analysis, Protestantism, Catholicism, and Mormonism are all net-negative: there are more people raised in the religious groups who have left, than there are people who have converted into the religious groups. Even Hinduism -- which has the lowest attrition rate -- is just breaking even. But Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually net-positive. Despite their heavy leakage, Jehovah’s Witnesses are the largest Christian group gaining American membership. They’re winners!

Childhood religious affiliation compared to current Pew Survey

In a shrinking market, it pays to invest in some viral-marketing. Which is where the 1-million-plus Jehovah’s Witness ministers in America come in. They’re all active recruiters. If Jehovah’s Witnesses were a SaaS company, every ‘customer’ would have to spend several hours a week reaching out to prospective customers, or they’d get their subscription cancelled.

Jehovah’s Witnesses gain about 30,000 members a year through baptism -- some of those are children of Jehovah’s witness families, and others are converts. If they didn’t lose so many members to conversion they’d be growing at an even faster rate.

We can actually model how much faster, with a simplified formula for viral growth. Viral marketing depends on existing customers recruiting new customers -- like how you can get more free storage capacity on dropbox if you refer your friends. If you know how many users you have (current_pop), on average, how many new customers each existing customer can recruit in a year (baptisms_per_publisher), and if you know what percentage of your customers drop out of the service per year (annual_churn_rate), then you can calculate future populations based on your current population: 

next_year_pop = (current_pop 

+ current_pop * baptisms_per_publisher)

* (1 - annual_churn_rate)

)

According to JWFacts.com (whose statistics seem to match up with the annual Watch Tower reports), there were about 982,5233 active publishers in 2002. The conversion rate is tiny, at around 3 baptisms a year for every 100 publishers. But according to this model, the steady stream of converts means Jehovah’s Witnesses can still grow -- even if their recruitment strategies are responsible for some of their attrition.

The average churn rate over the past decade has sat at around 1.5% of the total population. If they were retaining members at the rate the Catholic church used to -- .4% in the early 1980s -- they’d hit 2 million publishers in the United States by 2032.

Charts built with data gathered here and here

There are a lot of assumptions that go into viral marketing. Companies tend to like these projections because investors tend to like the look of exponential growth, but like many attempts to predict the future they’re imperfect. Some things that could disrupt this model are changes in church policy and prophesy, and major world events. Apparently membership ballooned right before 1975 because church leaders had “built up hope” that the world would end that year. Membership declined in the years following, when it didn’t. The actual Armageddon would also probably halt the church’s viral growth.

Which brings us to another factoid that might disrupt this model: being a Jehovah’s Witness is not for everyone. This market is not infinite. It has a ceiling, and in fact, given the American trend towards secularism in the past few decades, that ceiling is getting lower. But for the time being, Jehovah’s Witnesses make up about 1% of the U.S. population. This means they have a lot of room left to grow, and -- unlike the other major Christian denominations -- they’re making headway, modest though their growth factor may be.

[Jack Ryan]

@Nicola... Lev 5:1  And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.

@James Thomas Rook Jr. is speaking from decades of experience of being one of Jehovah's Witnesses as am I. Before most of the current JW's were ever around. From the days when there were maybe 2 million of us total worldwide.

TRUE JEHOVAH"S WITNESSES did not dedicate themselves to a Governing Body. They dedicated thier lives to Jehovah and Jesus.

As an example of speaking out...

One of the foremost Jehovah's Witnesses in history spoke out against the formation of a Governing Body in the first place.

Keep searching for truth and follow it. Jehovah is guiding his true servants still.  There just aren't as many of them as some would have you believe and they aren't in "the prominent places in the synagogue" or televangelists either.

You won't find the "truth" on a television screen with a studio. True Jehovah's WItnesses preached this for decades.

True Jehovah's Witnesses also don't leave the debate, study and preaching to an elite few in a studio from New York while the rest of the world bows to their whims or "flavor of the month" new light teachings.

Remember how many of Jehovah's people were part of Israel and yet the entire nation strayed from truth more than once.

Disfellowshipping is a barbaric practice done by unloving Christians who haven't let go of Jewish traditions in favor of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

You can learn more about that history here:

http://wiki.jw-archive.org/Jehovah's+Witnesses+and+congregational+discipline

Speaking Truth has always been "hate speech" in history.