Jump to content

Queen Esther

IS THERE PREPARING THE THIRD WORLD WAR?......

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Queen Esther -
TrueTomHarley -
30
1221

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

U S A  !!!!  &%&%&&%%%.jpg

IS THERE PREPARING THE THIRD WORLD WAR?

 The United States has just taken a unique step in the history of humanity by launching this afternoon the mother of all bombs on Afghanistan. It is not a nuclear bomb, but it is a step to show that you can survive a nuclear war.
For the first time in history, the United States has used the GBU-43 Massive Ordinance Air Blast (MOAB) bomb, a gigantic projectile weighing 10 tons, designed to destroy cave complexes and underground tunnels.

The United States had lost years of world influence, being surpassed by Russia and China militarily and economically. The biblical King of the South was no longer the empire of years ago. With the launch of this bomb this afternoon, with the Syrian bombing, with the presence of a military fleet off the coast of North Korea, the king of the South is claiming his authority, power and world influence again. A serious warning has been issued to the Russian power, recognized by the slave as the king of the north years ago, that he is willing to do whatever it takes to not lose the authority that Satan has given him.

Jehovah's Witnesses are the only Faith in this world, who does not believe in the future destruction of the planet. But we do not rule out the possibility of a Third World War, something that has never been seen since the days of the flood to this day.
To the question of if there can be a Third World War, the slave has answered on a single occasion: "we do not know" (he does not deny it)
However, we must be very careful about the announcements of fatalism: (Matthew 24: 4-6) And in reply Jesus said to them: "Be careful that no one misleads them; 5 For many will come upon my name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will mislead many. 6 You will hear of wars and reports of wars; See that they are not terrified. Because these things have to happen, but it is not yet the end

The world scene has changed dramatically. 1914 is already far away and now the Jehovah's Witnesses are preparing definitively for the end of a civilization and a change of system. Jesus did not retract his words about a human channel on earth: (Matthew 24: 45-47) "Who is truly the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his household, to give them his food At the appropriate time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master, when he arrives, finds him doing so! 47 Verily I say unto you, He shall appoint him over all his goods.

It has begun a countdown that only if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation.

 

Share this post


Link to post

  Nicely said Queen Esther. It is possible that a another world war or even a limited nuclear exchange by a "crazy kid" [I think you know who I mean] may trigger the nations to want to strengthen the United Nations and declare "peace and security". How fitting and timely it is that the worldwide talk tomorrow is on the subject "How to Cultivate Peace in an Angry World".

Somehow I do not believe that the events in Russia with Jehovah's Witnesses, and Syria and Afghanistan and the South China Sea and now North Korea all happening at the same time are all just a coincidence. Someone once said "there is no such thing as a coincidence" {Leroy Jethrow Gibbs NCIS}

Footnote: The talk outline for the talk tomorrow was written about a year ago scheduled to be given tomorrow at the same time as all of these things are happening! Interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Somehow I do not believe that the events in Russia with Jehovah's Witnesses, and Syria and Afghanistan and the South China Sea and now North Korea all happening at the same time are all just a coincidence.

Not that it matters, but I'd like to add my own opinion that a third world war is just as UNlikely today as it was 10 years ago and 20 years ago. (It is also just as likely.) Things can change again quickly, of course, and a potential stand-off due to USA-Korea "posturing" raised a red flag last night, but it likely not going to flare up again for a while.

We are probably supposed to get all worked up whenever the general climate of the world becomes more on edge and it probably sounds wrong not to go along with the idea that the whole world could blow up at any minute. I don't think the Biblical end of this system has much to do with the kinds of multi-pronged tensions that the world continues to face. The end can happen at any time, with or without any specific cry for "peace and security" and with or without any specific interpretation of Bible prophecy that we have anticipated.

Share this post


Link to post

According to RT News [Russian news} they report this :"North Korea has tried, but allegedly failed, to conduct a new missile test launch, according to South Korea’s Joint Chief of Staff. The alleged botched launch comes amid heightened tensions on the Korean Peninsula and a day after Pyongyang showcased its new sea based and intercontinental missiles." https://www.rt.com/news/384904-korea-pyongyang-missile-launch/

Wonder which General will be killed for that mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

it has begun a countdown that only if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation.

In practice, what does that mean? I mean how is the FDS going to lead us to survive the great tribulation? I thought it was up to Jehovah and Jesus.

This is a sincere question.

Share this post


Link to post

Jehovah and Jesus use imperfect humans to lead us. We need to obey and be fully "devoted" to them as the Israelites were to Moses. Not critical or undevoted as Korah and his rebels were. The Christians had to obey certain "instuctions" to survive the Great Tribulation in the first century. If anyone has any doubt that  we should be "devoted" to imperfect men then just read the Bible : " 42  And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles" Acts 2 :42. 

Share this post


Link to post
40 minutes ago, bruceq said:

If anyone has any doubt that  we should be "devoted" to imperfect men then just read the Bible : " 42  And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles" Acts 2 :42. 

I have no doubt whatsoever that we should NOT be devoted to imperfect men. The early congregation during the time of apostles was NOT supposed to be devoted to the apostles, only to the teachings of the apostles. The teachings of the apostles formed the foundation of the first century congregation. This is the very reason we need no apostles today, and it is why we have no apostles in the congregation today.

(1 Corinthians 12:28, 29) 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation: first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services; abilities to direct; different tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they?. . .

(Ephesians 2:19, 20) 19 So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and you have been built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.

(Ephesians 3:5) In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit,

(John 16:13) 13 However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come.

So one could also say that there are no new teachings, or new truths, to be learned after the time of the apostles. This does not mean that we should not have older men and teachers in the congregation, but they should be here to help lead the work, and encourage faithfulness, not make new teachings. New circumstances arise and therefore good teachers will help us make better application of the existing teachings in the Bible. But the Governing Body does NOT need to make new teachings, they are basically asking to be "keepers" or "guardians" of the doctrine that already exists in the Bible.

If they come up with something new, such as an application of a Biblical prophecy to our own time, then this is a suggestion that we can keep in mind and watch for and hope for. These men have collectively studied the Bible much longer than any of us have, and they have access to a range of information about various situations from around the world that the rest of us do not have. But if they give us guidance for the end times, it's a suggestion about how they may believe the prophecy will likely play out. But we should never be "devoted" to their teaching. (Much less "devoted" to them.)

Remember, too, what happened when a Council at Jerusalem (including apostles) decided to offer Bible-based counsel to all the congregations who had been affected by a serious error that members of the Jerusalem congregation had been perpetrating. (Prejudice against the uncircumcised Gentile converts to Christianity.)  Paul accepted this counsel, and even though apostles were involved in promoting it, Paul treated it as only limited. For example, they said to:

(Acts 15:29) 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols (εἰδωλοθύτων ),. . .

But Paul, evidently realizing the limited scope of this counsel, used the exact same word explaining the limited nature of their counsel:

(1 Corinthians 8:4,8) Now concerning the eating of food offered to idols ( εἰδωλοθύτων), we know that an idol is nothing. . . we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

Paul said it best when referring to the very men who made up that Jerusalem council:

(Galatians 2:4-12) 4 But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us; 5 we did not yield in submission to them, no, not for a moment, so that the truth of the good news might continue with you. 6 But regarding those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. 7 . . .  9 and when they recognized the undeserved kindness that was given me, James and Ceʹphas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, gave Barʹna·bas and me the right hand of fellowship, . . . . 11 However, when Ceʹphas came to Antioch, I resisted him face-to-face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 For before certain men from James arrived, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcised class.

And getting back to the idea of being "devoted to imperfect men" Paul had already explained his reasons for disagreeing with such a notion, in the wider context of Galatians 1 and 2, while minimizing any rumors about his contact with or dependence on or even "devotion to the teaching" of the apostles who came before him:

(Galatians 1:10) . . . Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave. . . .  I did not immediately consult with any human; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was, but I went to Arabia . . . Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ceʹphas, and I stayed with him for 15 days. 19 But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. 20 Now regarding the things I am writing you, I assure you before God that I am not lying. . . . Then after 14 years I again went up to Jerusalem with Barʹna·bas, also taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up as a result of a revelation, and I presented to them the good news that I am preaching among the nations. This was done privately, however, before the men who were highly regarded, . . . But regarding those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. . . . James and Ceʹphas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars . . . .

So, to what extent are we supposed learn from Paul's example and teaching?

(1 Corinthians 4:1-17) . . .A man should regard us as attendants of Christ and stewards of God’s sacred secrets.  In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful.  Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . .  Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. . . .“Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other.  For who makes you different from another? . . . Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings.  For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, . . . For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you certainly do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus, I have become your father through the good news. 16 I urge you, therefore, become imitators of me. 17 That is why I am sending Timothy to you, because he is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord. He will remind you of my methods in connection with Christ Jesus, just as I am teaching everywhere in every congregation.

Note that Paul considered himself a faithful and discreet steward, or guardian, but that there would be no need for any human tribunal to judge anyone "until the Lord comes." There was no need to go beyond the things written. Therefore, there was no need to favor any persons over other persons. No one should begin governing before the time came. While there may be 10,000 faithful and discreet stewards, or guardians, of the apostle's teaching, it was the apostle's teaching itself that provided the foundation to the congreation -- and thus Paul was like a father, a source of their learning from his teaching. In the future, even if Paul or another apostle never visited them again, people like Timothy would not teach anything new, but remind them of Paul's methods. Anyone who tries to "govern" or "rule" in advance -- in the area of doctrine -- is going beyond the things written.

Obviously, you read these verses a little differently. I think we can apply these verses and still be very appreciative of the counsel, encouragement and guidance given by the Governing Body.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

"Obviously, you read these verses a little differently. I think we can apply these verses and still be very appreciative of the counsel, encouragement and guidance given by the Governing Body"

I agree , I was not trying to be argumentative. Some opposers use the "imperfect men" argument about the Governing Body. I was just saying that Jehovah and Jesus use imperfect humans to lead us. Point is we follow the teaching of Jesus but we do it through a channel of human representatives "teaching of the apostles" not just Jesus alone without a Governing Body.

The First Century Apostles were part of the Governing Body I was not saying we have Apostles today but we do have a Governing Body made up of humans as were the Apostles.

{Correction ; At the time of Acts 2:42 the Apostles alone made up the Governing Body which was later expanded to include the body of elders in the Jerusalem Congregation. "devoted to the teaching of the Apostles". Acts 2:42. aka "devoted to the teaching of the Governing Body", that is "those taking the lead" Greek for "taking the lead is "governing ones".}

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, bruceq said:

I agree , I was not trying to be argumentative. Some opposers use the "imperfect men" argument about the Governing Body.

I know you weren't trying to be argumentative. If anything, it was my response that probably seemed so. But I did it because of something very subtle that should be pointed out when it happens. Here was what I responded to more precisely:

4 hours ago, bruceq said:

Jehovah and Jesus use imperfect humans to lead us. We need to obey and be fully "devoted" to them as the Israelites were to Moses.

The first sentence is absolutely true. The second sentence is a form of idolatry. We are not devoted to the Governing Body, just as the early Christians were not devoted to the apostles.

Moses was the leader of the Israelites. The Israelites could be "devoted" to Moses as the representative of Jehovah's authority. And by being the representative Lawgiver he was even the master of their "faith." The Governing Body should not be the leaders of Jehovah's people. Jesus, as Lawgiver, gave an entirely new commandment that replaced the Mosaic system.

(Matthew 23:10) 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

This doesn't mean we don't need persons who can lead by their example and their faith, but we don't want any to be called leaders, masters, governors. The congregation can have many teachers, but we don't look to just one place for those teachers, unless it's Jesus Christ.

(2 Corinthians 1:23, 24) . . .. 24 Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

Our faith and salvation must depend on no man, because in the Christian congregation, it must run directly from Jesus to our own heart and mouth.

(Romans 10:5-10) 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the Law: “The man who does these things will live by means of them.” 6 But the righteousness resulting from faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ that is, to bring Christ down, 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart”; that is, “the word” of faith, which we are preaching. 9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.

(1 Corinthians 10:2-4) 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant the Christ.

(Hebrews 3:4-6) . . .. 5 Now Moses was faithful as an attendant in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ was faithful as a son over God’s house. We are His house if, indeed, we hold on firmly to our freeness of speech and the hope of which we boast down to the end.

Moses was not a pattern for the Governing Body, or even the apostles. Moses was a pattern for Christ, where under a new covenant, there was no need for any other go-betweens. There is no tent set up by man. There is no need for each one to teach his fellow citizen.

(Hebrews 8:1-11) 8 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man. . . .  6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises. . . . : “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. . . . 10 “‘For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I will write them. And I will become their God, and they will become my people. 11 “‘And they will no longer teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them.

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Acts 2:42. aka "devoted to the teaching of the Governing Body", that is "those taking the lead" Greek for "taking the lead is "governing ones".}

The ones taking the lead could include the elders making up a governing body. But it's every elder in every congregation who takes the lead by speaking to us, encouraging us, and showing faith and conduct that we can imitate -- and so every elder, by that definition, is therefore a "governing one."

(Hebrews 13:7, 17) . . .Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith. . . . Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you

(1 Peter 5:1-4) . . .I make this appeal to the elders among you: 2 Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; 3 not lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

It appears that elders do not take the lead by governing, because that is a form of "lording it over" (same as the words for "master over" as in "we are not masters over your faith.") Elders, and therefore every governing body member and member of any council of elders, leads by being examples to the flock. We submit to the counsel of elders when their advice is based on Christian experience, faith and conduct. We follow their example of hard work, and the loving and humble way in which they preside, and their manner of teaching.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, bruceq said:

The Christians had to obey certain "instuctions" to survive the Great Tribulation in the first century.

Weren't those instructions directly from Jesus?

With my question "HOW will the discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, lead us to survive the great tribulation" my intention was not at all to cast doubts on the FDS, but plainly and simply to see if anyone had any ideas as to the PRACTICAL meaning of the statement "that only if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation. . Do we have reasons to believe that the FDS will receive some miraculous instructions from Jesus himself? Which they then will pass onto everyone else? To me, this does not seem likely and I do not think the FDS thinks this way either. After all, this is not how it functions now. So would that change in the GT? Is there some scriptural evidence for believing that the FDS will receive some special instruction by way of a revelation of some sort? (Bearing in mind also that we believe the remnant will receive their heavenly reward during that time and will be gone from the earth). From the last convention it was implied that we will be grouped together, hiding some place, in this case a basement. A kind of US and THEM scenario. Of course the brothers admitted this is just speculation, and that it may be quite different in reality. Is Jehovah not able to save individuals in whatever situation they may find themselves in, maybe even separated from their friends? It seems that the criterion for surviving is described well by Peter:

"Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah...... Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace." (2 Peter 3: 11-14) And other scriptures such as Matt 24:13, Romans 10:9,10, John 3:36, John 3:16, Heb. 7:25, Acts 16:30, 31 and I am sure you can think of many more. Conversely there are many scriptures showing who will NOT be saved.

The other point about being devoted to men, is covered very well in JWInsider's comment, I just want to add one little thing I thought about. If we were devoted to "men" what would happen if a member would become apostate as has happened in the past? There is no guarantee in men. The only unfailing guarantee we have is in Jesus and Jehovah as revealed in the Bible. As for organizational procedures and suggestions, these we find on the website, but mainly in the shape of letters to the congregations. That is not to say the FDS does not provide us abundantly with spiritual food via the WT and other publications and we are grateful for that. But it is still our personal duty to make sure all is in harmony with the scriptures. The FDS expects us to do that also.

Share this post


Link to post

Weren't those instructions directly from Jesus?

Of course but since he was not alive in 66 C.E. it was through humans who were taking the lead. For more info see the Feb. 2017 article "Who Is Leading God's People Today for our position.

And to JW insider : Just because we follow the admonition at Acts 2:42 does not make us idolators. For more info. on what we believe see the above Watchtower article. Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Just because we follow the admonition at Acts 2:42 does not make us idolators.

That's very true. What would make us idolators is if we devoted ourselves to imperfect men. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the apostles. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the Governing Body. 

16 minutes ago, bruceq said:

For more info. on what we believe see the above Watchtower article. Thanks

Thanks. Most of the scriptures that I mentioned in my post are mentioned in that article.

Share this post


Link to post

 

48 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Of course but since he was not alive in 66 C.E. it was through humans who were taking the lead.

Regarding the instructions Jesus left his followers about the destruction of Jerusalem, yes, this was passed on to others, and they had scrolls with the prophesy written in them. Many who personally heard those instructions from Jesus were still alive. However, if one is to believe the video "Walk By Faith Not by Sight" it was very much on an individual, or at most familial, basis that the faithful Christians fled to the mountains. Jesus's words as recorded in the scrolls was what individuals followed, as all Christians were familiar with them. At the elders meeting that was held (in the video) it was confirmed that this was evidently the time to flee, because what was written in the scrolls coincided with what was happening around them.

I know the WT article. I am not aware anything I have said contradicts it. If there is, let me know.

 

Share this post


Link to post

"Insider" said :"That's very true. What would make us idolators is if we devoted ourselves to imperfect men. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the apostles. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the Governing Body". 

I do not agree with you but I do agree with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am "devoted" to my wife that does not make me an idolater Acts 2:42..

Share this post


Link to post

Just a P.S. really.

Ambiguity and misunderstanding can arise when using the word "devote". It has a range of meanings today that may obscure understanding the word as it is used in the NWT to translate original language expressions in mostly the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Greek Scriptures.

Exodus 20:5 is relevant in this context; also 1Tim 4:8. As is the Miriam Webster definition:

Definition of devotion

1a :  religious fervor :  piety

1b :  an act of prayer or private worship —usually used in plural during his morning devotions c :  a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate (see corporate 2) worship of a congregation

2a :  the act of dedicating something to a cause, enterprise, or activity :  the act of devoting; the devotion of a great deal of time and energy

2b :  the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal "her devotion to the cause";  filial devotion

3 (obsolete) :  the object of one's devotion

Probably another thread required to take this further.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Ambiguity and misunderstanding can arise when using the word "devote". It has a range of meanings today that may obscure understanding the word as it is used in the NWT to translate original language expressions in mostly the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Greek Scriptures.

Thanks. I was thinking along the same lines. And maybe this is the same problem in the case of "if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation". Am I or others misunderstanding what it's saying...?

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, Anna said:

"if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation"

The way I understand this is much better expressed in scripture, e.g. Rev. 7:14. Certainly, remaining united within the true Christian congregation, whatever form it takes, and however it is directed, will enable those faithful servants of Jehovah who are remaining at that time(no limitation on numbers implied)  to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon.

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

The way I understand this is much better expressed in scripture, e.g. Rev. 7:14. Certainly, remaining united within the true Christian congregation, whatever form it takes, and however it is directed, will enable those faithful servants of Jehovah who are remaining at that time(no limitation on numbers implied)  to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon.

Yes, and this is why we are admonished to not forsake gathering ourselves, because this is where we can build one another up and encourage each other to stay faithful. However, this was not what I was talking about in my previous posts. It had to do more with surviving the GT. Would this necessarily depend on all of us being together, being guided by the FDS on what to do, specifically? What is the criterion for surviving the GT?

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Anna said:

What is the criterion for surviving the GT?

 

15 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Rev. 7:14

Matt.24:34,40 is also applicable, and even Rom.10:13. As for the exact logistics of how exactly this will occur, I'll (hopefully) discuss it with you a little later. :)

Share this post


Link to post

I think the best criteria is mentioned in Zeph. 2:3 :" Before the decree takes effect,Before the day passes by like chaff,Before the burning anger of Jehovah comes upon you,+Before the day of Jehovah’s anger comes upon you,  Seek Jehovah,+ all you meek ones* of the earth,Who observe his righteous decrees.*Seek righteousness, seek meekness.*Probably* you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger.+

Even if we are not with one another and we are alone we must be faithful and loyal to Jehovah. As to uncertainties I really like Bro. Jacksons talk at the annual meeting "Expect the Unexpected".

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, bruceq said:

I am "devoted" to my wife that does not make me an idolater Acts 2:42..

Quite true. At first, I wondered if I should have started out with this same point about what it means to be "devoted" to something. In the original verse, the idea of devotion is just as well translated without even using the word "devotion." It could also have been properly translated: "And they continued steadfastly [proskarteréō] with the instructions of the apostles."  (Acts 2:42) or perhaps, "And they persevered  [proskarteréō] in the instructions of the apostles..."

In fact, the New World Translation does not usually use the word "devoted" when translating this word:

(Acts 1:14) With one purpose all of these were persisting [proskarteréō] in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

(Acts 2:46) 46 And day after day they were in constant [proskarteréō] attendance in the temple with a united purpose,. . .

(Acts 8:13) 13 Simon himself also became a believer, and after being baptized, he continued [proskarteréō] with Philip; and he was amazed at seeing the signs and great powerful works taking place.

(Colossians 4:2) 2 Persevere [proskarteréō] in prayer, remaining awake in it with thanksgiving.

But this is still a very useful point about being "devoted" to your wife, and a wife being "devoted" to her husband. You could even argue that slaves should be devoted to their masters, and children be devoted to their parents. In Acts 2:46 these same brothers we have been talking about were also "devoted" to their attendance at the temple. And in Acts 8:13, Simon, the former magician, was "devoted" to Philip. But the point about "devotion" to one's spouse is especially useful here, specifically because of the immediate context of Ephesians 5 & 6:

(Ephesians 5:21-6:5) 21 Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ.22 Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord, 23 because a husband is head of his wife just as the Christ is head of the congregation, he being a savior of this body. 24 In fact, as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, wives should also be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it, . . .  28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. . . .  33 Nevertheless, each one of you must love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband. 6 Children, be obedient to your parents in union with the Lord, for this is righteous. . . .  5 Slaves, be obedient to your human masters,. . .

It's very true that this sense of devotion does include a kind of "subjection to the lead" of another person, just as you imply that we should be in a kind of devoted subjection and obedience to imperfect men. But notice one more verse in that same passage that I didn't highlight yet:

(Ephesians 5:21) 21 Be in subjection to one another . . .

In other words, the way in which you should be in subjection to the Governing Body and other elders, for example, is in the same way that each member of the Governing Body should be in subjection to you. That's the way it is with all fellow members of the congregation. We are in subjection to each other.

This is why, even among Jehovah's Witnesses, it should not be possible for us to think of a certain group as if they make up a group of human leaders.

(Luke 22:25-27) 25 But he said to them: “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those having authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 You, though, are not to be that way. But let the one who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the one taking the lead as the one ministering. 27 For which one is greater, the one dining or the one serving? Is it not the one dining? But I am among you as the one serving.

Our "food" -- our spiritual nourishment -- is doing Jehovah's will with respect to each other; it's especially the encouragement, comfort and support we all give to one another. (John 4:34; Hebrews 10:24,25) This encouragement and spiritual food can include instruction and guidance and counsel and information from the elders, and therefore also from the Governing Body. We respect all that counsel deeply.  But we don't devote ourselves to the Governing Body, except in the same sense that the Governing Body members also devote themselves to you. There is no separate Body within the Body. They are not in the position of a husband over the congregation, and we are not in the position of a wife in the congregation. We are all a part of the body of the whole congregation. But Jesus Christ is the Leader and Head (and Husband) and the rest of us are slaves serving each other. Some are shepherds and stewards, but this does not make those ones our Leader, in any sense.

In fact, as a shepherd, every elder takes on the responsibility of being "God's steward:"

(Titus 1:7)  For as God’s steward, an overseer must be free from accusation. . .

And it is every steward's responsibility to be faithful and discreet:

(1 Corinthians 4:2) In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful.

(Ephesians 5:15-17) 15 So keep strict watch that how you walk is not as unwise but as wise persons . . . keep perceiving what the will of Jehovah is.

 

Share this post


Link to post

I feel like I rather rudely steered this conversation to one that kept veering back to a problem I had with the words "devotion to imperfect men" which was tied to "devotion to the Governing Body." That wasn't the real gist of the original thread, so I'm thinking all that part of the discussion could be moved to a new thread. If that happens, perhaps the entire February 2017 study article that was referenced could be discussed. But I won't be adding more to that particular subject here.

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

 

Matt.24:34,40 is also applicable, and even Rom.10:13. As for the exact logistics of how exactly this will occur, I'll (hopefully) discuss it with you a little later. :)

Yes, good scriptures, and I cited others in my posts on this thread. My point is that all of us are NOW facing tests of faith, and loyalty to Jehovah's standards, when the GT comes it will be too late then for the leopard to change his spots and we are going to do as we have done so far. The implication of this post is that somehow without the FDS we will not be able to survive the GT. In what way would the FDS play a role in our salvation? Some have likened the FDS to Moses, leading the Israelites through the red sea. Or that we will get some special direction from the FDS which might not make sense. Is this really a correct view? And can it be supported by scripture?  Hence my question HOW will the FDS lead us to survive the GT, because if we are loyal, and approved by Jehovah, isn't that the criterion for salvation? Anyway, if you read my other posts to bruceq you will get the general idea of what I am trying to say....

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

perhaps the entire February 2017 study article that was referenced could be discussed

Good idea :)

Share this post


Link to post
20 hours ago, Anna said:

Hence my question HOW will the FDS lead us to survive the GT, because if we are loyal, and approved by Jehovah, isn't that the criterion for salvation?

We could spend a great deal of time speculating on scenarios on how we will (if we are there) survive the GT as you term it and what role the FDS will play in leading us during that time. And yet you have highlighted the most important aspect already in saying "if we ARE loyal, and approved by Jehovah..."

In the light of Habbakuk's words at Hab.3:16-17, we need to be prepared for any eventuality during the "great tribulation" that will exceed all others in history. In the 1984 NWT, the rendering of verse 17, in connection with the "day of distress" (v16), contained the phrase "[the] flock may actually be severed from [the] pen.." What does that suggest as a possibility? And yet the WT 15/7/1977 stated in commenting on that verse "And never allow your vision to become dim as regards angelic backing of those holding to their dedication to Jehovah".

Habbakuk goes on to exemplify what our resolve should be in verse 18: "Yet, as for me, I will exult in Jehovah; I will be joyful in the God of my salvation" and indicates Jehovah's response in v19: "The Sovereign Lord Jehovah is my strength; He will make my feet like those of a deer and cause me to tread on high places."

I agree with your statement that we now need to maintain our loyalty, along with Jehovah's approval. And the FDS has had no meagre role in assisting and encouraging us to do this successfully so far. So there is no need to fear that this will cease, or that somehow, the loyalty and approval by Jehovah that we now experience (if genuine) should some how wear off if we find ourselves seemingly "severed from the pen". This regardless of where the anointed are located say, during the time of Gog's attack. 

And neither is there any doubt that Jehovah can and will provide the means for His people to escape at that time, because "Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial" 2Pet.2:9.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks @Eoin Joyce.  Your comment is pretty much my thoughts too. Why I pushed that point about the FDS was because some have the attitude (and opposers love pointing this out) that we believe that we are somehow dependent on the FSD for surviving the great tribulation, i.e. that they play a direct role or special role in our outcome, and that without them we would not be able to make it. This is why I kept harping on about WHAT is the REAL criterion for us surviving. It's not the FDS obviously, although as you have rightly pointed out, their role in helping us to maintain our loyalty to Jehovah has not been small by any means. And as you say, yes, we could spend a lot of time speculating on how the actual scenarios will play out, because we just don't know. But that wasn't really my concern. My concern was that readers don't get the impression that we are putting the FDS above the place they were given by Jesus, or on par with Jesus, because each of them individually are also the domestics, like everyone else in the Christian congregation.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Anna said:

each of them individually are also the domestics, like everyone else in the Christian congregation.

As they have stated themselves recently.

In discussing the functioning of the Governing Body, the February 2017 study issue WT says::

"And each member of that body views himself, not as the leader of his fellow brothers, but as one of the “domestics,” fed by the faithful slave and subject to its oversight." P29 para 11.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

As they have stated themselves recently.

In discussing the functioning of the Governing Body, the February 2017 study issue WT says::

"And each member of that body views himself, not as the leader of his fellow brothers, but as one of the “domestics,” fed by the faithful slave and subject to its oversight." P29 para 11.

They have stated this even earlier than this WT.  Notice concluding paragraph in the letter from the GB in the 'God's Kingdom Rules' book, and also there were a couple more WT articles (I can't remember when) and a talk, which I can't remember either, I just remember noting the reference to the GB as being domestics. Then there was a convention or assembly talk about not imitating men but their fine deeds or something like that. Of course we should know all this anyway, since from the inception of the modern day Christian congregation this has always been the case (although some did put Russell on a pedestal, but he never put himself there). I am not sure when it is that a form of a kind of reverential adoration of the GB started (I am not saying that everyone of us was this way, but many were). Was it with Rutherford? I don't know. But in any case, it is very much part of human nature to "worship" what we see (adoration of the Pope etc. ) and this must be why Jehovah had to make sure that this was correctly directed towards him only (warning regarding idols etc.) I was reading recently a secular article about 'Jehovah' to whom this particular author referred to as a "Hebrew god of war" (Jehovah of armies), but what he found noteworthy was that as opposed to surrounding nations, the Jews had no statue or physical symbol of, as he terms it," this deity". We know why that is.

In any case, it seems that the GB/FDS saw it necessary to remind us that they too are domestics because perhaps of this human tendency to focus more on those we can see, rather than Jesus and Jehovah whom we cannot see.

Share this post


Link to post

 

On 4/18/2017 at 6:07 PM, Anna said:

GB/FDS saw it necessary to remind us that they too are domestic

I have had the privilege of meeting a few governing body members (or ex) over the years. Bros Schroeder, Franz, Barber, Chitty, Barr I can remember.

One, who gave the public talk in our Kingdom Hall when I was chairman, pulled me aside and asked "Please don't introduce me as a member of the Governiong Body will you?. Just say I am a visiting brother OK?

Bro.Barr I remember particularly. When I was studying first (1972), I visited Bethel UK. He was working on one of those lead type-setting machines in the factory. He pulled me out of the group and spent about 45 minutes explaining and demonstrating the whole process to me. It was really interesting. At lunch, he introduced me to his wife Mildred. Some years later, (1980), I visited Brooklyn Bethel and attended the WT study. At the end, tap tap on my shoulder. Who was it ? Jack Barr just sitting in the row behind. "Hi" he said using my first name. " Which congregation are you in now?". And we carried on the conversation as if no years or service privilege had separated us.

I found these experiences pretty meaningfiul and formative.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Bro.Barr I remember particularly. When I was studying first (1972), I visited Bethel UK. He was working on one of those lead type-setting machines in the factory. He pulled me out of the group and spent about 45 minutes explaining and demonstrating the whole process to me. It was really interesting. At lunch, he introduced me to his wife Mildred. Some years later, (1980), I visited Brooklyn Bethel and attended the WT study. At the end, tap tap on my shoulder. Who was it ? Jack Barr just sitting in the row behind. "Hi" he said using my first name. " Which congregation are you in now?". And we carried on the conversation as if no years or service privilege had separated us.

There was another in Bethel with same first and last name. I know him. He married at Bethel. We later sent him an anniversary card and the GB Barr answered! He wrote a few chatty paragraphs saying where he had been lately. 'Boy he sure gets around for being just a year at Bethel,' I said to my wife. The wives names didn't match, but I figured maybe the name I knew was a nickname. It took a few minutes to figure it out.

Imagine - a GB member writing a few chatty paragraphs to someone he does not know but doesn't want to ignore. These are not proud brothers.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Forum Statistics

    62,416
    Total Topics
    118,117
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    16,584
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    Vespucci Languages Private Limited
    Newest Member
    Vespucci Languages Private Limited
    Joined

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.