What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?

[Micah Ong]

14 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Then you fail to understand the message of the Watchtower and basically scripture.

I do understand it as I was raised as one and took it very seriously.  But because of reasons like this I recently left.  Watchtower is just another cult buddy!  It's a multi-billion dollar organization.  I spoke to a former elder who told me that they wouldn't help the starving brothers in Malawi because it's not what they do.  I wonder if the GB remember Matthew 25:35.

Again you have no sound reasoning to explain Romans 10:13 and Acts 4:12 and prove my point that they insert Jehovah to suit there doctrine.

[Micah Ong]

7 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, NO! there is NO reasoning with your kind of logic.

If that's the case then it contradicts Acts 4:11,12 "This Jesus is the stone which was despised and rejected by you, the builders, but which became the [e]chief Cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”

Bible harmony bro.

[Micah Ong]

I didn't say Jesus was Jehovah the Father God, I was making the point that Jesus name was the most important name for us now according to God. 

Also you can't compare other's savior's whom God raised up in ancient Jewish times to the ultimate savior Jesus Christ for all mankind, who created the heavens and the earth. 

YHWH is not exalted as the name we look to in the New Testament. 

If you apply the name Jehovah to Lord in the New Testament - in Revelation you run into problems with Jesus and Jehovah described as the Alpha and the Omega. Rev 1:8,18; Rev 22:12,13

Also God has given Jesus a position worthy of worship to the Glory of the Father.

Philippians 2:9-13  For this reason also [because He obeyed and so completely humbled Himself], God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow [in submission], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess and openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord (sovereign God), to the glory of God the Father.

Don't forget that Jesus is our mediator and God has bestowed on him a position that he has deemed worthy of worship.  Ones in heaven bow to him as it states in that scripture.  He created all things Colossians 1:15    For ^[d]by Him all things were created in heaven and on earth, [things] visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [that is, by His activity] and for Him.

It's easy as a Jehovah's Witness to minimize Jesus.  You can give Jesus the worship he deserves and still give God the Father Glory.

It's interesting to note as @JW Insider has brought out that the Magi and occultic groups through the centuries have used YHWH.  But I haven't known of any occult groups use Jesus name.

I know the Freemason use YHWH in their special prayers and refer to him as the great architect of the sky.  But I don't think they use Jesus name.  If anyone could find where they do, that would be very interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

41 minutes ago, Micah Ong said:

But I haven't known of any occult groups use Jesus name.

A few of them also used Jesus' name from evidence I've read.

[Micah Ong]

7 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

You contradict yourself, buddy! since you mentioned Romans 10:13 that you want to refute

I didn't say it should be Jehovah which would make it a contradiction, you did.  The NWT makes that mistake.  I agree with Lord.  I simply said that what you showed me saying Romans 10:13 is the case being Jehovah, then it is a contradiction.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Micah Ong said:

Also God has given Jesus a position worthy of worship to the Glory of the Father.

Philippians 2:9-13  For this reason also [because He obeyed and so completely humbled Himself], God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow [in submission], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess and openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord (sovereign God), to the glory of God the Father.

As you know, we understand this as not direct worship of Jesus, but "relative" worship of Jehovah that can now only go through Jesus. Israelites bent the knee to their king, who was in effect a "Mighty God" to them, but understood that the Sovereign Lord Jehovah was the true Almighty King.

I think you have jumped the gun when you insert "sovereign God" to verse 11.

I should add that Jesus as the true Spokesman of God's own word, makes the spokesperson analogy of relative worship, just as strongly as the sovereignty analogy. Note Moses's position as spokesman (the one who gives Aaron the words) between God and Aaron, the spokesman for Moses:

• (Exodus 4:15, 16) 15 So you must speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with you and him as you speak, and I will teach you men what to do. 16 He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.

When we confess the good news about God and Christ that we learned through Jesus (the "Greater Moses") we are witnesses or spokespersons of someone who serves as God to us. It doesn't make Jesus the "Almighty" sovereign any more than Moses was the Almighty God, just "God."

[JW Insider]

11 minutes ago, Micah Ong said:

YAHWEH is NOT a HEBREW NAME. It is ARAMAIC, which is closely related to HEBREW.

Aramaic replaced ancient Paleo Hebrew and nearly all the existing manuscripts, including the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, are in the Babylonian Aramaic alphabet.

These four letters YHWH are Babylonian Aramaic. They are NOT SACRED and they are NOT HOLY.

That's a jump in logic that requires you to believe that the same name (YHWH, not a specific pronunciation) was added in about 6,000+ places in the Hebrew Bible. It turns this entire topic on its head because it means that you reject all the evidence for the correctness of the Hebrew text. And then you see it as a problem that Witnesses generally believe that the Greek text was tampered with.

This is one of the reasons I wanted to start a brand new topic that goes through much of the scholarly evidence about the relevant Bible texts, but sticks more closely to that evidence and does not veer off on so many other topics.

[Micah Ong]

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That's a jump in logic that requires you to believe that the same name was added in about 6,000+ places in the Hebrew Bible.

Don't forget they were all copies.  There is absolutely NO PROOF that the Tetragrammaton was ever in the text of Scriptures prior to the Babylonian captivity and up to the time of Malachi.

 

 

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Micah Ong said:

Don't forget they were all copies.  There is absolutely NO PROOF that the Tetragrammaton was ever in the text of Scriptures prior to the Babylonian captivity and up to the time of Malachi.

I think this is backwards. The evidence shows that the name was used more often in the earlier texts and began to be replaced in later texts. The entire book of Esther, for example, which was written later than the Babylonian Captivity, does not contain the name YHWH at all. Later Psalms show the same evidence. Books that scholars date as later, even where most fundamentalist believers do not accept the dates (Daniel, Ecclesiastes) also provide some pieces of evidence to the same trend.

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

"Jesus" is not the name given that is above every other name since many people have been given that name over thousands of years.

Good point @bruceq  !!

[Micah Ong]

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The entire book of Esther, for example, which was written later than the Babylonian Captivity, does not contain the name YHWH at all.

Interesting....

A portion of the Dead Sea Scroll of Psalms 119:59-64, written in the Aramaic (Babylonian) alphabet. The text is Talmudic-Babylonian (Aramaic) and is no older than perhaps around 30BC-50AD. While scholars will wail and scream, these scrolls appear to be made by a sect of Babylonian Jews and could date from 100-700AD and not from the time before Christ at all as alleged. Some want these texts to be very old so they can authenticate the Tetragrammatons’ and or other teachings they now claim the Christians stole or borrowed from the Essenes. There existed in Israel up to the eighth century Jews who used these caves. The artifacts found in them demonstrate a continuous use for several centuries. The scroll is said to be from the library of the Essenes but this cannot be proven. We are told without proof that the Essenes devoted their lives to expunge from the manuscripts corruptions placed in them by Babylonian tainted scribes. Yet they used Babylonian Aramaic themselves. So they did not distance themselves very far from the other Babylonian returnees. We do not know if this Psalm scroll was considered by them to be authentic or among those that were corrupted.

 

 

[Micah Ong]

6 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Good point @bruceq  !!

Obviously missing the point of the scripture.  It's the person/identity of the aforementioned Jesus Son of God.