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Early Christians Believed in the Trinity


Cos
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Please consider starting new topics rather than adding to this enormous one. You can link back on your new topic to this one if need be and/or tag users as needed.  Thank you for the interesting discussion.  

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3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I can't see the need to elaborate on what an avowed teacher has expressed to those he seeks to teach. Especially as this particular string takes the form of such a definite or clear expression (statement). It's like ....splitting off atoms when only an element is required.

Clarifies what you meant, but still at best only an assertion. And, forgive me, as I hope @JWInsider will, I get get a sneaky, Hislopian feeling when I read postings of that nature. 

Now surely you know how silly this sounds? But as it has the ring of John 10:33, I'll take it as a compliment.                               (Compare Acts 5:43)   

Absolutely true! And probably never will!......:(

Very good question. Matt 13:24-30; 36-43. Answers this perfectly. I expect more detail will be provided by other participants as I can see other postings coming in while I write.

Sure. No need to reply then. Thanks for the bounce anyway. It was enlightening.  :)

Hello Mr. Joyce,

 

Thank you for admitting that it is your own inability to grasp the vocabulary that defines the Trinity, even though it is not hard at all. I can break it down for you if you like…or you could just read what you claim you where taught while being raised Roman Catholic… it is all there with no hard words for you to get stuck on.

 

The early church writers discussed and rebuked many false teaching, but nowhere do they even mention anything that resembles the JW form of religion until the Arians of fourth century. Surely if Matt. 13 applied, as you claim, to a group resembling the JW religion then the ANF would have said something about them, but nothing. <><

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In Haiti, even today .. the population is 85% Catholic, and believe in the Trinity, as an institution (individual results may vary ...) AND 85% or so of THAT group also practice Voodoo and worship the

But not by First Century Christians taught by Jesus you know the ones in the New Testament. They used the BIBLE. The Bible, every single book in it, was written by Jews and Jews do not believe in God

Very good point. After all if the Trinity was in the Bible in the first place then NO ONE would have tried to put it there by a forgery. Which of course proves it is not in the Bible. {Yet that is not

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49 minutes ago, Cos said:

 

 

“Whatever Clement meant or believed and wrote after the Bible was written at the time the apostasy had occurred actually proves the "Trinity" came after the Bible was written by your own admission.”

 

Whenever you JWs don’t like what the early Christians said, then it is because of apostasy.

 

 

  That is true after all the "word" Trinity is not used about your god until hundreds of years AFTER the Bible was written. Why is that? If the Bible writers believed in your  false god called Trinity then why didn't they say anything about it? Dose it even occur to you that maybe the Bible writers who were all Jews and did not believe in your false god did not mention it because they do not believe in it? Why should they believe in your false god when they are the ones who left Egypt in the first place to get away from false religion such as the Trinity of Horus, Isis and Osiris. 

You obviously enjoy the false religious teachings of Egypt. Not just the Trinity but perhaps even other teachings such as the Immortality of the Soul. We all know you continue to display your Egyptian hieroglyph of the fish god at the end of your paragraphs. There is only ONE GOD not a fish or a three-headed war-mongering people-burner. :D

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47 minutes ago, Cos said:

 

 

Thank you for admitting that it is your own inability to grasp the vocabulary that defines the Trinity, even though it is not hard at all. I can break it down for you if you like…

   Please do FROM THE BIBLE [JOHN 17:17].  Should not the definition of God actually be IN THE BIBLE? :S It is not rocket science. If you cannot define your Trinity with the Bible then whats the point of this discussion at all. I mean you do believe your Trinity is in the BIBLE don't you??? Then show us Scriptures to prove it. There are Tens of Thousands of Scriptures in the Bible and you can't even find ONE? You do own a Bible I hope since you are trying to prove that your God is in there? No one cares about what some scholars wrote years after the Bible was written. If you cannot demonstrate your teaching is from the Bible then your teaching is false for "God's WORD is TRUTH" Jn. 17:17.

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4 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

Please have in mind though that you are turning yourself in an internet troll

I myself never do despicable trolling. (not that Praeceptor is addressing this to me) I do, however sometimes conduct dignified perusal of internet resources in search of fatheads to set straight. 

There appear to be one or more of them on this thread, but others are rising to the occasion. Me, I just go for cheap shots and ad hominem attacks.

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About COS'  Fish god : Hatmehyt

Her name can be translated as "she who is in front of the fishes" or "Foremost of the fish". This could either suggest that she was the most important of the (few) fish cults, or that she was considered to be the oldest fish deity. She was sometimes depicted as a fish (either a dolphin or a lepidotus fish) or a woman with a "Fish" emblem on her head.

Doesn't the POPE have a headpiece also with a fish emblem on it. The very religion that believes your Trinity?

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48 minutes ago, Cos said:

Thank you for admitting that it is your own inability to grasp the vocabulary that defines the Trinity, even though it is not hard at all. I can break it down for you if you like…or you could just read what you claim you where taught while being raised Roman Catholic…

Oh you misunderstand (again). Sorry for not making myself clear. I was not taught what the Trinity is as a Roman Catholic. It was dictated to me, in the worst possible sense of that word. I was given tractates, such as the portion of the Athanasian creed I posted earlier, and told to memorise and recite them on pain of detention or even corporal punishment. In fact, writing out the Creed in full numerous times was itself utilised on occasion as a punishment!

It wasn't possible to be taught what it was describing, because no one seemed to know what it was.  Admittedly (by proponents), this is a difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity, and also is, historically, a controversial doctrine. I was puzzled by the fact that non-acceptance of the teaching seemed to incite a violent reaction in those who professed belief in it. However, I found out fairly early on that many Christians admit they don't understand it, many more Christians don't understand it but think they do, and in fact, although they'd be horrified to hear it, many Christians sometimes behave as if they believe in three Gods and at other times as if they believe in one.

Given that, it is little wonder that no one was able to actually teach the Trinity as such. Of course when I came across statements asserting that the Trinity, for example, "reveals that God can be seen only as a spiritual experience whose mystery inspires awe and cannot be understood logically", I knew I was on a loser. However, I felt reassured when I found out that what I felt was unintelligible gobbledegook actually appeared so to others, so my intelligence was not at fault, neither was I alone in that view. 

So I hope that clears up any misunderstanding about whether I was actually taught the Trinity while being raised Roman Catholic…

A difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity 

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For more info on the fish god of Christendom and the pagan trinity god see these books [none of which are printed by Jehovah's Witnesses]: 

Pagan Origins of Trinity and Religious Teachings from my library:

God The Invisible King [H.G. Wells] 
Sacred Origins 
A History of Christianity 
Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation 
Many Witnesses One Lord 
Christianity and World Religions 
Dictionary of the Bible [McKenzie] 
Trinitys Weak Links Revealed 
The Non-Christian Cross 
Encyclopedia of American Folklore 
Extraordinary Origins 
The American Character 
When Jesus Became God 
Two Babylons [Hislop] 
The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture 
Jesus God or the Son of God 
The Patristic Gospels 
Bible Myths and Parallels in Other Religions [Doane] 
The Paganism in Our Christianity [Weigall] 
Witch Hunts in the Western World 
Concepts of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit 
Popes Visit Time Life 
Morals and Missiles  
Religion of Babylonia and Assyria 
Religions Babylonian Assyrian [Hooke] 
Dawn of Civilization [Engberg] 
Ancient Pagan Christian Symbolism 
1594 De Cruce Justus Lipsius 
Chronicles of the Unholy Fathers 

Halloween From Pagan Ritual to Party Night 
Sacred Origins 
Pagan Traditions 
The Christian Book of Why 
Extraordinary Origins 
Halloween American Holiday 
Two Babylons [ Hislop] 
Christmas in America [Restad] 
Pagan and Christian Creeds [Carpenter] 
Christmas Customs and Traditions [Miles] 
Stories Behind the Great Traditions of Christmas [Collins] 
Toward the Origins of Christmas [Roll] 
Bible Myths and Parallels in Other Religions [Doane] 
Myths of the Sun...Concerning teh Sun and its Worship [Olcott] 
The Golden Bough [Frazer] 
The Paganism in Our Christianity [Weigall] 
How It Started [Garrison] 
The Battle For Christmas [Nissenbaum] 

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Collecting-Watchtower-Research-Books-/10000000188341192/g.html

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Revelation 18:

   Babylon the Great has fallen,+ and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a place where every unclean spirit* and every unclean and hated bird lurks!+  For because of the wine of the passion* of her sexual immorality,* all the nations have fallen victim,+ and the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her,+ and the merchants* of the earth became rich owing to the power of her shameless luxury.” And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people,+ if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.+  For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven,+ and God has called her acts of injustice* to mind.+  Repay her in the way she treated others,+ yes, pay her back double for the things she has done;+ in the cup+ she has mixed, mix a double portion for her.+  To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’+  That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire,+ because Jehovah*God, who judged her, is strong.+ “And the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality* with her and lived with her in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her when they see the smoke from her burning. 10  They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city,+ Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’11  “Also, the merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full cargo anymore, 12  a full cargo of gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, and scarlet cloth; and everything made from scented wood; and every sort of object made from ivory, and from precious wood, copper, iron, and marble; 13  also cinnamon, Indian spice, incense, perfumed oil, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, carriages, slaves, and human lives.* 14  Yes, the fine fruit that you* desired has left you, and all the delicacies and the splendid things have vanished from you, never to be found again.15  “The merchants who sold these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and will weep and mourn, 16  saying: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, clothed with fine linen, purple, and scarlet and richly adorned with gold ornaments, precious stones, and pearls,+ 17  because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’“And every ship captain and every seafaring person and sailors and all those who make a living by the sea stood at a distance 18  and cried out as they looked at the smoke from her burning and said: ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19  They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’+20  “Be glad over her, O heaven,+ also you holy ones+ and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced his judgment on her in your behalf!”+21  And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.+ 22  And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp, of musicians, of flutists, and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again. And no craftsman who practices any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again. 23  No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices+ all the nations were misled. 24  Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones+ and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”+

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   Also about the early Christians that COS brings up here is more info {Again not printed from Watchtower publications]:

A History Of Christianity {Latourette}:

   This is a great history book dealing with the beliefs of the early Christians of the first few Centuries. The REMARKABLE similarities between the early Christians mentioned in this book and Jehovah's Witnesses is astounding. Here are just a few of what this 724 page book mentions : 

1. Jesus and early Christians were non-political.

 2. Apostasy developed after first century.

 3. Early Christians did not compromise with pagan festivals.

 4. Early Christians did not partake of military service.

 5. Early Christians had no creeds. 

6. Early Christian congregations had more than one elder later changed to one Bishop. 

7. Early Christians had no clergy class. 

8. Every early Christian was a minister [priest]. 

9. Early Christians did not celebrate Easter, Christmas. 

10. Early Christians had a vivid belief in the nearness of the end of the world. 

11. Early Christian monetary contributions were voluntary. 

12. Early Christians had a strict view of entertainment. 

13. Early Christians were a united brotherhood. 

14. Divorce only allowed if adultery committed. 

15. Early Christians had an zealous ardent desire to share their beliefs with others. and 

16. Early Christians believed in disfellowshipping  wrongdoers and then reinstatement after some time if repentant. And much more! The Watchtower Society has quoted many times from this book regarding the beliefs noted above.

 

As you can see this history book of the Christians of the first century comparing with later centuries shows that Jehovah's Witnesses have restored the true Biblical first century Christian beliefs. This book is  by Kenneth Scott Latourette and is in good condition [1975] with a few pages with writing or underlining.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-History-Of-Christianity-Watchtower-Research-Apostasy-Trinity-War-Disfellowship/391753361009

Here is a list of many more books also dealing with this subject {Again none are printed by the Watchtower}:

Early Christianity Belief and History

The Rise Of Christianity 
A History of Christianity 
Josephus 
Tacitus Annals of Imperial Rome 
Who Was A Jew 
The Early Church and the World 
Judaism and Christianity in the Age of Constantine 
On The Road To Civilization 
Judaism and Christianity in the Age of Constantine 
Preachers Present Arms [Abrams] 
World History, the Story of Mans Achievements [Habberton] 
Christianity and the Roman Government [Hardy] 
The March of Civilization, Ancient and Medieval World [Wrench] 
The Church the Gospel and War [Jones] 
The Ante-Nicene Fathers vol. 3 [Roberts, Donaldson] 
The Early Fathers on War and Military Service [Swift] 
Early Church History to the Death of Constantine [Backhouse, Tylor] 
History of Christianity [Gibbon] 
A Short Hostory of Rome [Ferrero] 
The New Worlds Foundations in the Old [West] 
Those About To Die [Manniz] 
A History of Christianity [Wolff] 
Caesar and Christ [Will Durant] 
Treasury of the Christian World [Nasby] 
The Beginnings of Christianity [Craig] 
Judaism and Christianity in the Age of Constantine 
Christianity in Talmud and Midrash 

God and Man in Washington 
Beyond Good Intentions 
Early Christian Attitude to War 
A History of Christianity 
It Is Not Lawful For Me To Fight 
The Court and the Constitution 
God Versus Ceasar 
The American Character 
The Lustre of Our Country 
On The Road To Civilization 
Judaism and Christianity in the Age of Constantine 
Preachers Present Arms [Abrams] 
World History, the Story of Mans Achievements [Habberton] 
Christianity and the Roman Government [Hardy] 
The March of Civilization, Ancient and Medieval World [Wrench] 
The Church the Gospel and War [Jones] 
The Ante-Nicene Fathers vol. 3 [Roberts, Donaldson] 
The Early Fathers on War and Military Service [Swift] 
Early Church History to the Death of Constantine [Backhouse, Tylor] 
History of Christianity [Gibbon] 
A Short Hostory of Rome [Ferrero] 
The New Worlds Foundations in the Old [West] 
Those About To Die [Manniz] 
A History of Christianity [Wolff] 
Caesar and Christ [Will Durant] 
Treasury of the Christian World [Nasby] 
Armed With the Constitution [Newton] 
State And Salvation  The Jehovah's Witnesses and their Fight For Civil Rights [Kaplan] 
Varieties of Religious Repression : Why Governments Restrict Religion {Sarkissian} 
To The Flag The Unlikely History of the Pledge of Alligiance 
The Courage of Their Convictions 
Salute! The Case of the Bible VS. The Flag 
The Supreme Court on Church and State 
Render Unto Caesar The Flag Salute Controversy 
Marble Palace The Supreme Court in American Life 
Religious Freedom : Rights and Liberties Under the Law 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/lisa.joeywit/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

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It would be nice to see a discussion of Trinity or one of it's sub-topics without so much diversion into topics about the phoenix bird, war, fish, and the pope's clothes. Someone said something about the phoenix and then someone else goes off on a tangent about how the word might have been translated in the LXX???? 

Oh wait. That was me. Sorry.

I usually stay out of Trinity discussions lately because I'm not very good at staying on topic.

I have seen well-organized, well-written topics started on related subjects though. Such as a topic about how the Bible writers spoke about the holy spirit, and why it appears to be treated as a person. As I recall, hardly anyone responded at all. Maybe because it wasn't worded as a question, and most people who share in discussions here already knew what the poster thought.

Here, Cos has asked a question, and the answers and responses range from mature to childish, some points are excellent and some are completely off-topic.

Rather than add to the discussion as it is, I would just like to clarify something I added earlier.

I don't know whether the earliest manuscripts of Job or the earliest LXX mentioned the phoenix bird. If it did, it does not necessarily mean that it was a real animal anyway. Apparently the book of Job makes use of references to symbolic animals or uses some "poetic license" and might even reference folklore. Getting off-topic, we claim that Jesus was doing the same when he drew on the common Jewish beliefs about life-after-death when he spoke of the "rich man and Lazarus." Perhaps this was no different than making a point while telling a humorous story that starts out: "A rabbi and a priest and a beggar all die at the same time and they are all standing at the Golden Gates in front of Saint Peter . . . ."  [How's that for a diversion!]

I personally doubt that the book of Job ever intended to refer to the phoenix bird, and I doubt that there is enough evidence to show that the LXX originally had a reference to such a bird in this place. Once something is believed to be true, it's easy enough to go searching for proof texts to support it. But we can't rely on human translators, and we can't rely even on learned rabbis from any century in history to tell us anything definitive. A lot of very good and interesting material comes out of their commentary and a lot of really stupid stuff is there too.

I like to imagine that we fretted over certain specific lines in the Bible for years, and maybe even "spilled a ton of ink" over it, and then we have an opportunity someday to ask Job what he meant here. I imagine he might laugh and say something that we would not have thought of in a million years:

  • "A 'phoenix bird'? That's what you thought I meant? No. A 'phoenix' was the name my Egyptian friend always called this big, loud annoying bug, a special kind of cicada that flew up from Egypt. We called it the Nile bug, and some people have now called it the '17-year locust.' You see, it disappears for 17 years and then keeps coming back. I wasn't talking about resurrection, anyway, just the fact that I always thought that I might live a long and comfortable life and if anyone tried to get rid of me, I'd always come back; I'd always be there. 

Since the topic is really about Trinity, I'll divert my attention to that topic for a minute. I don't think it's fair to say that Arians didn't appear until the 4th century. I don't think it's fair to tie a fish symbol to Egyptian hieroglyphics (or to imply that Christians should be under Jewish laws about the use of graphics and symbols. I don't think it's fair to say that a word must appear in the Bible before we can discuss whether the teaching is there. There is no mention of the word Neutrality, yet we have a Neutrality doctrine. Someone already mentioned that the term "Governing Body" is not in the Bible. For that matter there is no "Seven Gentile Times" either, and yet some Witnesses pretty much treat some of these teachings as if they are the central doctrines of the Witnesses.

bruceq mentions that he has no problem saying Jesus is God (with a capital G). Not every JW would agree, but this is a good starting point, since we have some potential common ground to begin a serious discussion about Trinity without just "fighting about words." A lot of Trinitarians who put too much emphasis on a specific definition of Trinity would be happy to understand that we have a lot of good, Scriptural backing for our belief. On the subject of capital letters, I wondered how the NWT in German would get around the fact that, grammatically, it MUST put a capital G on "god" or any noun, even a "falsch Gott."

(John/Johannes 1:1, NWT German/Deutsch) Im Anfang war das WORT, und das WORT war bei GOTT, und das WORT war ein Gott.

Anyway, I'm not disciplined enough as a poster to try to get too involved in this conversation, but for the most part I'm enjoying it. Thanks.

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