"Let Your NAME Be Sanctified"

[Micah Ong]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

John 10:29 (NASB) Context: The Unbelief of the Jews

29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

(John 14:28) You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

(Philippians 2:5-6)

⁵ Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal

Hmmm context.  Of course the Father was greater than he was for he humbled himself and became as a man at that point. 

The New World Translation twists Philippians 2:5,6 as you quote that verse.  Interlinear says: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2.htm

"Christ Jesus who in the form of God subsisting not something to be grasped esteemed it to be equal with God but himself emptied the form of servant..."

The NWT doesn't trump the original Kingdom Interlinear(koine greek) which the Watchtower uses as well.

This clearly shows that he lowered himself to be as a man with the limitations of a man, so at that point in time of course the Father was Greater at that point in time.

Of course no man can see God in his spirit form.  His light is too powerful for our physical body.  No man can see God in his spirit form and live.  Abraham could see God because he manifested himself as a man with two other angels as Genesis 18:1-19:1 reads.  How else does he wash his feet and give him something to eat? 

Men were not to worship angels but Jesus never denied worship especially in Revelation Chapter 5.  Exodus 34:14 would be a contradiction to Revelation chapter 5 if Jesus were not equal to God.

Yes if Jesus were "a god" Exodus 34:14 would be conflicting with the worship being given to him at Revelation chapter 5; Phillipians 2:10; Matthew 2:11; 28:9; John 20:28.

He never rejected any worship unlike the Angel at Revelation 19:9-10 and Peter at Acts 10:25-26.

prosekynēsan
προσεκύνησαν
worshiped

variations of this word(like worshiped) are used, not obeisance as the NWT translates

 

[Bible Speaks]

[Micah Ong]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Without first considering Philippians 2:6 Context: The Attitude of Christ

Yes the context shows he humbled himself even though we was equal to God as I showed before with the Interlinear Bible.  So humility and obedience is the lesson here you can't top that as an example. 

[Micah Ong]

@Bible Speaks Okay by the New World Translation(man's translation and interpretation) and not the direct Interlinear which is the inspired writings of God.  I pray that you come to love the truth. 

Showing a picture with a statement "I make my decisions by the BOOK!" is easy to say yet you provide no sound basis in doing so.

[Micah Ong]

@Bible Speaks "I make my decisions by the Book."  if you did that fully you would worship Jesus the name that is above all other names.  That's what the book says at Acts 4:10-12.  The Father and the Son deserve that worship. 

The New Testament doesn't say give less to Jesus and more to the Father, if it does please show me.

I feel sorry for you that you can't accept the sacred secret of God.  You are missing out on the New Testament.  It is just that simple if you can't worship Jesus you are rejecting that part of the book.

[Micah Ong]

@AllenSmith Is it really that hard to believe God is not so dynamic but limited so as not to be Triune in nature?  The whole Bible gives the building blocks for this that is why man used the word trinity to explain what the Bible was painting.  If you don't you have contradictions with Jesus and Jehovah in the Old Testament and New Testament as we have discussed.

Do you believe that God is love to it's fullest degree and has always been whole and complete?

Would you agree that God did not need anyone and wasn't lonely as he has always been complete?

Would you agree that everything created is an expression and extension of him and his qualities and that he has always contained everything as unlimited potential?  We could exclude evil as it is not something new but separation from God just as darkness exists when there is no light.

Therefore if family came from God wouldn't it be fair to say that God was the first family, being Triune in nature?  He was never lonely as he has always been Triune, whole and complete?  Wouldn't the angelic family and the human family(man in his image Gen9:6) be an extension of him the first family who as always existed through eternity and through whom all things exist now.  His qualities of family have always existed as it as always been in his nature.

Do not put limitations on God, the scriptures have revealed the sacred secret of God.  It's not impossible for God to send forth an aspect of himself(The Son) to be man and pay the perfect price for us whilst still existing as the Father.  God has taken all our sins and experienced our pains to the full for us personally.  That is a massive gift and an unparallelled expression of love.  This is greater than sending a created being.

Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

 

We are all connected to each other according God as a family than we think, it is only Satan and his influence which causes separation.  Because of his atoning act we are being gathered back and unified to God's original family:

 

⁴ There is one body [of believers] and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when called [to salvation]— ⁵ one Lord, one faith, one baptism, ⁶ one God and Father of us all who is [sovereign] over all and [working] through all and [living] in all.

 

Just some food for thought...

 

 

 

[Micah Ong]

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

I stand corrected. There is no reasoning with your ill-conceived notion of Christ being god since you keep implying scripture is simply a distraction from the real truth.

1.  "Humbled himself" does not mean he did anything wrong.  Philippians 2:5,6 conveys to us that Jesus emptied himself and became a man.  So in essence he lowered his form of Godliness to a lower form of a servant man.  He lowered himself to take on that role.  That's exactly how it reads in the Interlinear!

So when you read Genesis 18 it says Jehovah appeared to Abraham.  This means comes into sight right?  There are three men and all eat with Abraham.  Two go to Sodom and Gomorrah(Genesis 19:1) and remember the people wanted to rape the two angles meaning they were still in materialized bodies.  And Jehovah stays back with Abraham.  It  is simple maths 3 men at the start, 2 leave to Sodom and Gomorrah leaving one man with Abraham.  That's how it reads my friend - no twisting at all.

 

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

2.       There would be NO need for Jesus to be referring himself as the third person if he was the true god. Not to mention, that would also imply, man had the capability to (KILL) God if that makes any kind of sense. A Spirit that has no beginning or end, and you wish to demote this ultimate deity to be no different than false gods.

There would be because he had taken on the role as mediator and ransom(Lamb of God)!  Again Philippians 2:5,6 he lowered himself to become a servant man to fulfill this role.  Also he could be a perfect example as obedience to God for mankind. 

The Bible says that he gave up his spirit and not that man had taken(killed him) his life. Matthew 27:50. 

John 10:18 "No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I am authorized and have power to lay it down and to give it up, and I am authorized and have power to take it back..."

^{John 2:19,21 "}Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up....He was speaking of the temple which was His body.”

He could not raise his body if his Spirit was dead or asleep.

1 Peter 3:18 "... having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;"

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Hebrews 7:3 Context: Melchizedek and Abraham

2and Abraham apportioned to him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness.” Then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.

Again thank you for using another scripture to demonstrate the point of Jesus being eternal.  You highlight the point very nicely.  Of course Melchizedek did have a "father" and "mother" to be born.  But his parents weren't written down in genealogy.  So this was obviously written to illustrate that Jesus has no beginning or end.

Please take a look at these two passages in Revelation that illustrates Jesus being eternal.

Rev 1:7,8 "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. ^[k]So it is to be. Amen.

⁸ “I am the Alpha and the Omega [the Beginning and the End],” says the Lord God, “Who is [existing forever] and Who was [continually existing in the past] and Who is to come, the Almighty [the Omnipotent, the Ruler of all].”

We know the NWT puts Jehovah there instead of Lord but the context clearly shows it talking about Jesus from verse 7.  Nonetheless we will run with Jehovah for now.

Rev 1:17,18 "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. And He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last , ¹⁸ and the Ever-living One [living in and beyond all time and space]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of [absolute control and victory over] death and of Hades.

Jehovah = Alpha(first) and Omega(last) = the Beginning and the End - existing eternally.

Jesus = First and the Last = the Beginning and the End - existing eternally.

 

[Micah Ong]

I'm saying the Interlinear Bible not a translation is your ultimate source for scripture as it is a direct word for word from the original.

Again you are putting limitations on God and saying he is two entities when the scriptures mentioned say they are both eternal(one can't create the other for they have always existed.)  He is 3 persons in one and nothing is impossible with God.  Quantum Physics which is a demonstrable science is only on the fringes of what is known, shows that a particle can be in two places at once.  A particle can jump through time and space in an instant.  So how can we put limitations on God.

You say no one has seen God but Jesus says he that has seen me has seen the Father.  They could see Jesus because he was in the flesh but he had come from the Father of the God head.

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Now, how could Jesus raise the dead if he’s separated from his active power as a MAN?

Jesus said he and the Father were one.  So he was still connected to the Father and could use this power.

 

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, there would be NO need for Jesus to be deceptive by looking at the sky, and uttering those words. (empty expression) putting on a show for the purpose of whom? So, unless you want to conclude Christ to be mentally diseased, and a deceiver, from the beginning of creation by deceiving man that he is the true GOD(YHWH) and changes his mind and tells everyone he has changed it to (JESUS)

No it wasn't deception it was the gradual unfolding of the sacred secret of God.  Remember the apostles didn't understand it properly until after his resurrection.

The scriptures speak of them in the same way(again look at Interlinear to see original wording) - Jesus being the Everlasting Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah as being the Mighty God.

The Jews knew Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 10:21 very well as it was there job to preserve the writings,  that's why they said this at:

John 5:18  This made the Jews more determined than ever to kill Him, for not only was He breaking the Sabbath [from their viewpoint], but He was also calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

unless you want to conclude Christ to be mentally diseased, and a deceiver, from the beginning of creation by deceiving man that he is the true GOD(YHWH) and changes his mind and tells everyone he has changed it to (JESUS)

@AllenSmithI didn't say it the Bible says it(but not being mentally diseased as you hypothetically state).

Isaiah 45:23  “I have sworn [an oath] by Myself, The word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."

Philippians 2:9-11 "Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

You are stuck on a name.  It's the meaning of the name that was the focus. 

Unless you show me proof of  YHWH in the New Testament you are basing your whole beliefs on a corrupted Bible Translation, being the New World Translation.  Revelation 22:18

The fact is the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament.

Philippians 2:9,10 "...God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow [in submission], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,..."

God has made Jesus the name that is above every other name, that's why YHWH is not in the New Testament.  God himself has instated this not me. 

Friend it's that simple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Micah Ong]

You say: That doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t have a beginning because he did. Jesus was created, and Jesus did have an END in human form.

You say this but to insert YWHW in the NT is going against what Rev 22:18 said not to do.

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

9 Therefore God (YHWH) exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him (JESUS) the name above all names.

So without doubt then Jesus name is above YHWH's name.

You say "That doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t have a beginning because he did."

But he says of himself: " I am the First and Last" at Revelation 1:17,18 

Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

1.       Luke 4:7-8 (NASB) Context: The Temptation of Jesus

 7So if You worship me, it will all be Yours.” 8But Jesus replied, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

In Both instances, Luke is referring to YHWH, NOT Jesus, since Satan was tempting the son of man.

Your scripture contradicts Jesus being worshiped in many cases in scripture. " that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth" Your scripture highlights Jesus acting as an example for man not to worship Satan but to worship the true God.

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

2.       John 20:17 (NASB) Context: Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene

17“Do not cling to Me, Jesus said, “For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.

Jesus still had to ascend to the Father to be exalted. It was in heaven that he and the Father were worshiped together in Heaven.

Revelation 22:3 "...for the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him."

also

John 5:18 "This made the Jews more determined than ever to kill Him, for not only was He breaking the Sabbath [from their viewpoint], but He was also calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."    The Jews knew of the promised son known as Mighty God and Eternal Father at Isaiah 9:6

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

3.       Revelation 19:10 (NASB) Context: The Marriage of the Lamb

10So I fell at his feet to worship him. But he told me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who rely on the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Ok you don't worship angels that's clear.  Yet Jesus is worshiped and is called Mighty God.  As I stated before they are both worshiped in Revelation and Philippians.

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

4.       Revelation 22:9 (NASB) Context: Jesus is Coming

9But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

That’s why it's emphasized twice in John’s vision NOT TO WORSHIP JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok it's clearly talking about the angel that Jesus sent.

Revelation 22:9,16 "I, John, saw and heard all these things, and fell down to worship the angel who showed them to me. v16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to you to tell the churches all these things."

But beforehand the disciples had worshiped him before he ascended to heaven.

Matthew 28:16,17 "Then the eleven disciples left for Galilee, going to the mountain where Jesus had said they would find him. 17 There they met him and worshiped him—but some of them weren’t sure it really was Jesus!

prosekynēsan = they worshiped

Every angel said no to this same act, but Jesus never did as you have bought out with those scriptures.

Sorry friend you can't get away from "that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth,"

That's worship.  And it's the Highest name God has placed for us and those in heaven!

 

[Micah Ong]

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, regardless, how you wish to word it, (GOD) is the true Alpha and Omega, and (Lord) became like the Alpha and Omega through his sacrifice.

Jesus says of himself as verse 12 and verse 20 - of chapter 22 shows:

Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” 

Does it say "he became" like the Alpha and the Omega or does it say "I am" the Alpha and the Omega?

Even if he became like him which it doesn't say, he is still saying of himself 'there was no one before him and he is eternal.'

Your quote: "the “word” became like “a god”. You insert the word "became"  You might be confused I think.

Brother I only wish you peace but I must defend the Bible as well.

[TrueTomHarley]

On May 9, 2017 at 7:56 PM, Queen Esther said:

@Micah Ong   and   @Bible Speaks ......  who  has  the  right  answer ??

I'm  sure,  ONLY  our  Librarian  can  help  here !

Yes, but the arthritic old biddy has her nose stuck in the card catalog and can't straighten up even to come over and scold people.

[Queen Esther]

. Thats  sorry....   But  SO  many long comments and  NO  end !  Thats not a good sign for true JW,  I think...  NEVER thought,  the Truth must be  SO  complicated !! 

ps. Yes,  everybody  of  us  is  different....  similar  like  in  the  world  -  but  all  JW  have  the  same  goal,  I  think  so