Child Sexual Abuse UK

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In view of the above interview, it is obscene to even include Jehovah's Witnesses in the same discussion of rank pedophilia. It is obscene not to continually slap down persons who would attempt to equate the two. 

I suspect that it really is much worse in other religions. I have already seen people who take the data that comes out of the Australian studies to try to show that it must be about 10 to 50 times worse, as a ratio, among Jehovah's Witnesses as it is among Catholics. I think this interpretation of the numbers is ludicrous. I found it to be a useful point when you pointed out that the numbers among JWs may refer to both "higher ups" AND the "rank and file," while the numbers from the Catholic Church refer mostly to "higher ups."

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Knowing of a case that was not handled 'correctly' is poles apart from being the predator of that case. They would not even have that knowledge if they were like the churches that make no effort to keep themselves clean morally in God's eyes.

I was trying to find a way of saying that it was not all four "higher ups" at the London Branch who had been accused. You might have already been aware of the news when three of the persons with the highest responsibilities at the Branch were dismissed at the same time, and I did not want to cast aspersions against all of them. But you have put me in the awkward position of thinking I should defend the truthfulness of what I said. In Australia not only does the list include circuit overseers, and a former district overseer, but the accused included a person who had been a former Australian Branch overseer himself. One of the very cases that we listened to testimony about in the ARC was a case where the accused was one of these at the top of the Australian Branch organization.

So I mention the parallels as a way of showing the seriousness, even though all of us have the desire to protect the reputation of the Organization. I think it's just as dangerous to minimize the cases as it is to exaggerate them.

With respect to the Interview you mentioned, it's hard to imagine this in any institution, but there really are parallels even if we are not trying to equate our problems with Catholic problems. Although I am not speaking of child abuse, exactly, there have been cases of collusion among some accused of wife-swapping, two or more elders who all committed fornication with the same young sister, and in at least one of these cases, more than one of the accused Witnesses ended up being friends with each other, and supposedly had used this friendship to cover for each other. Something related to this has been claimed for a couple of Australian congregations and three California congregations.

I can't claim direct knowledge of those things that I just mentioned in the last paragraph, but I can claim almost direct knowledge, or at least knowledge that came to me from a member of the GB, whom I worked for. At the time there were about 16 active members of the Governing Body, and one had been accused of homosexual tendencies (Chitty), while two others had been accused of multiple child abuse instances (Greenlees and Jaracz). Another was a 80+-year GB member (Fred Franz) who had made it a longstanding practice to meet with more than a dozen naked and semi-naked 19-year olds in the sauna (steam room), who came there to listen to his Bible discussions for up to two hours every Wednesday night. Two of those GB members were dismissed from Bethel, the other two remained at Bethel until they died. I mention all of these because it reflects on 25% of the highest organizational leadership at the time. We know that it's often those with a measure of authority who use their position to manipulate the situation allowing for the crimes and the cover-up of their crimes.

So, unfortunately, I cannot accept some of the excuses about needing to slap down those who see problematic parallels. Finding the parallels with other institutions might even be a way to find more solutions that have seemed to work in some of these other institutions. I don't think it matters who is better or worse, it matters that we find more ways to help the situation, help the victims, and keep the organization clean. Making the organization appear cleaner is not the same as truly working to make it clean. I'm a firm believer in facing the issue head on as the fastest way to clean it up.

[Evacuated]

It seems this subject has such an emotive element that there is often a tendency to "shoot from the hip" in responses from all sides.

For example: 

23 hours ago, bruceq said:

Who dares tell Jehovah that his way or his representatives are WRONG in how Jehovah handles things or finds "fault" except of course Satan and other DISLOYAL ones.

Is this referring to those who criticize JW procedure in handling cases of child abuse? Surely not thought through if so?

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

but plagues are no longer the kind of worry they were during the days of exploration from the 13th to the 17th centuries.

In medieval times, plague was known as the “Black Death” and resulted in millions of Europeans dying. Indeed, the incidence of this virulent disease in recent times seems minimal by comparison......at face value.

This little table can be seen in the context of this comment regarding the first decade of the century:   In the United States, 57 persons were reported to have the disease, of which seven died. Worldwide, 21,725 persons were affected with 1,612 deaths, for a case-fatality rate of 7.4%. (National Center for Biotechnology Information). 

In the context of the comment made earlier, regarding diminishing concern regarding plague, this quote from Wikipedia should serve to modify this remark: 

Third Plague Pandemic is the designation of a major bubonic plague pandemic that began in Yunnan province in China in 1855.[1] This episode of bubonic plague spread to all inhabited continents, and ultimately more than 12 million people died in India and China, with 10 million people killed in India alone.[2] According to the World Health Organization, the pandemic was considered active until 1959, when worldwide casualties dropped to 200 per year.

The comment on diminishing "worry" regarding plague seems to have been presented as a parallel to counter the view of @bruceq that the crime of "child abuse" would escalate as an indication of us being in "the last days". The facts indicate that severe and devastating incidence of plague is not limited to the 13th-17th century. Further research on professional views of this disease highlight concerns regarding anti-biotic resistance, travel based ease of transmission, social conditions exacerbating spread (deprivation induced hygeine factors etc). Only the stretched resources of finance, the dedication of medical professionals working at the limits of current scientific defences hold back the tide of plague in the modern world. (In my opinion, of course)

So, for those who believe Jesus prophecy on end times in Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 21 (as well as the symbolic ride of Revelation 6's four horseman) to have significance for the period since 1914, there is little basis for minimising concern regarding plague from both an eschatological or medical perspective. Therefore, on that basis, to conclude that:

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Child abuse might actually be another matter that gets better, not worse, as the system heads towards the end.

appears to be a highly suspect comparison. And actually strikes me as likely to reflect a highly Ameri/Eurocentric view, as does the whole child abuse debate.

At best, it appears to me that institutional handling of this crime may well be improved by state intervention in policy formulation in those countries strongly influenced by N/W European culture (and I include N America and Australa/N Zealand in that).

But who knows what has gone on, and continues to occur, in Eurasia, Asia, Africa, S America, M/Eastern etc areas? What basis is there for thinking that the rather pathetic, horse-bolted efforts of some countries of a very similar Western-influenced culture will have any effect on entrenched and historic practice and attitudes in areas of far greater population density?

No. I am afraid that on the basis of this argument,  I cannot agree with the suggestion that abuse of children in all it's unacceptable guises will diminish as this system continues to blunder to it's inevitable end. Ps.72:12-14.  

Length of posts seeming to be an important criteria here, I will cease (for now) at this point. 

[Evacuated]

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The rights that Jehovah has to create a prophetic drama by having a specific situation played out is not relevant at all to how we handle matters of abuse today.

Absolutely!

18 hours ago, Anna said:

when it comes to handling of child sexual abuse, "waiting on Jehovah" and other perceived theocratic sensibilities just don't seem appropriate in this situation.

"waiting on Jehovah" can unfortunately become a rather patronising and cliched expression due to it's inappropriate use and application (by some) to doing.... "nothing!".

Although the phrase as such does not exactly appear in the Scriptures, the idea expressed at James 5:7-8 certainly captures the principle of patiently and humbly awaiting Jehovah's time to put an end to the oppression and injustice lowly ones experience when unfairly treated by those with the upper hand in this current unjust system of things. I mean, no man can depose Satan the Devil as "ruler of the world"

Similarly, both Jeremiah and Micah use the phrase "waiting attitude". In the case of Jeremiah, when contemplating the sad end of unfaithful Jerusalem, there was the prospect of restoration in Jehovah's due time. Something Jeremiah would not actually see in his lifetime, although he did escape the destruction of Jerusalem with his life, thanks to Jehovah's protection. 

Micah, of course experienced some measure of relief in surviving through the rule of unfaithful king Ahaz into a far better environment under faithful King Hezekiah's rule, but still awaited Jehovah's time for the fulfillment of his prophetic words in, for example, Mic.4:1-4.

With the words related to "wait" appearing in Scripture over 180 times, there is ample basis for understanding what it means to "wait", what it is we should be "waiting for", and the correct attitude to display whilst "waiting".

One scripture which contradicts the erroneous application of the principle of "waiting on Jehovah" is contained in Pro.3:27:

"Do not withhold good from those to whom you should give it if it is within your power to help."

In harmony with the prophetic warning in 1Tim 3:1-5, the insidious plague of child abuse has infected every institution amongst humankind, including the family. For decent, honest people, this is an affront to basic human morality.  For those who love Jehovah, it is an unthinkable and henious crime against God Himself, and an inexcusable betrayal of trust toward victims.

Despite this, it's seemingly inexorable march continues, aided by internet, base criminality, incompetence and, extraordinarily, by the inability of many decent folk to accept that humans can be that evil.

The willingness of responsible ones among Jehovah's Witnesses to adjust procedural instructions in the face of criticism from worldly authorities and lay persons alike, (by no small means aided by the vitriolic poison of apostate slander), gives the lie to the view that such matters should "wait on Jehovah" for resolution.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You might have already been aware of the news when three of the persons with the highest responsibilities at the Branch were dismissed at the same time,

Could you quote a source for factual detail if you are not at liberty to provide the information yourself?

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Making the organization appear cleaner is not the same as truly working to make it clean.

Quite true in principal. But... all these dead people named as alleged examples.....Just tedious.

Isn't there anything that can be proved???
 

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Third Plague Pandemic is the designation of a major bubonic plague pandemic that began in Yunnan province in China in 1855.[1] This episode of bubonic plague spread to all inhabited continents, and ultimately more than 12 million people died in India and China, with 10 million people killed in India alone.[2] According to the World Health Organization, the pandemic was considered active until 1959, when worldwide casualties dropped to 200 per year.

My point was an attempt to counter the idea that such terrible things will always, unavoidably get worse due to the implication that this means we give up on trying to do all we can to help. It sounds defeatist. Also, even if we knew absolutely that things would get worse and worse, would this mean that we would not wish to do everything in our power for our brothers and sisters, if not also to even set an example as a light to the world?

Sometimes, when humans put some effort toward it, we learn how to counter serious problems. That's why I brought up the huge effects of correcting the common belief that germs didn't cause disease (and corollary beliefs). When these ideas were corrected, most plagues and many other causes of death also became much more manageable. I consider AIDS to be a major plague, the Spanish Influenza, and similar flu strains. There are still deadly ebola outbreaks, cholera, etc. But we as a human race have learned about cause and effect factors.

I used 1919 as the last date because I believe this was the year in which the last major big "plague" (the Spanish Influenza), tapered off. Wikipedia says  it killed some 50 million to 100 million people worldwide over about a year in 1918 and 1919. I wasn't saying that this can't happen again. I was saying that humans have found ways to minimize the former devastating effects of these to such an extent that the world's population growth rate has been effected.

(Also, of course, I don't know why your point about 1855 should serve to modify the remark. For me, it's part of the evidence I was presenting.)

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

And actually strikes me as likely to reflect a highly Ameri/Eurocentric view, as does the whole child abuse debate.

For me it wasn't just Ameri/Eurocentric. At the time I was including progress albeit slowly, against female circumcision, female infanticide, child labor, child brides, excessive corporal punishment, and many related issues that slowly progress through exposure of these as international human rights issues. Again, however, it may get worse, but we still want to avoid using the idea as a kind of defeatism against doing what we can to expose the issue wherever we become aware of it. It's a good work to expose it, and especially to help those related to us in the faith.

[TrueTomHarley]

 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But you have put me in the awkward position of thinking I should defend the truthfulness of what I said.

Wow! I won't do that again!

Look, we are on the same team, and all. Moreover, you have been places I have not. And I agree with your general sentiment that 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think it's just as dangerous to minimize the cases as it is to exaggerate them.

In both my books, I deliberately take on controversial matters. In my second book (No Fake News but Plenty of Hogwash) ["He's plugging his books again!" shrieks the Librarian, falling off her chair and landing on her fat keister. "After I ordered him not to!"] I describe at some length two greatly flawed persons, with names changed. One, an elder like Diotrophes, who bullied the elder body and plotted to kill his wife so that he could marry his girlfriend without suffering discipline, and two: a man who placed his hand on a teen's rear end and lived the rest of his life in self-imposed exile out of remorse. He had run away from a foster home at 16 and spent 20 years traveling with a carnival before coming into the truth; he was terrified at slipping back into what he had one been. At a time when everyone was doing high speed internet, he refused more than a slow dial-up connection, necessary for his business, so he would not instantly fall victim to internet porn. He may have masturbated himself to death, but he did not revert to what he had been.

Okay? I don't shy from controversy. Besides, I like you. If you are 'out there' in some ways, so am I. Even so.....having said that....it's amazing what you choose to spill. Surely the same GB member who told you of certain doings also told you about Proverbs 11:13. Clearly, there is something 1 Corinthians 5: 1-8esqe about your posting this here.

So there's my rebuke. I'm uncomfortable giving rebukes to a brother, for it isn't my place. But please don't squawk about it overmuch - you know you have it coming. A little squawking is okay, if need be, since I speak without the knowledge a counselor should always have; namely, I know neither you nor your history and I might speak differently if I did. But don't carry on too much.

Now, if the cat is out of the bag, the cat is out of the bag. What can we do with it? Perhaps it is not such a bad thing after all to have aired things.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Although I am not speaking of child abuse, exactly, there have been cases of collusion among some accused of wife-swapping,

Since it is not child abuse, it doesn't belong in a thread devoted to child abuse. If we are to discuss all our slimeballs, then everyone else must, too, and they are not - because the topic is something else.

 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

one had been accused of homosexual tendencies

Not only is 'homosexual tendencies' vague, open to much interpretation (I am cautious here, for fear you will next post 8X10 glossies) but, again, he doesn't belong in a thread about pedophilia. Frankly, in the world's eyes, he becomes a heroic victim, his 'true sexuality' repressed by a homophobic organization - oh, yeah, I can hear the gears turning now in the murmurers' minds.

So we are down to three. I heard once about Greenless, but not the other. However, 'accused' is different than 'established.' With President Duarte's complaint, we were speaking of abuse that is frequently - some would say usually - rape. On the other hand, the person in my book would be put on the sex registry list today, but he plainly was not a threat to anyone - it is only the predators you need keep track of, otherwise you will keep track of damn near everybody, for it seems there are few who have not, at some point in their lives, touched a child inappropriately. (and if what you allege to have happen happened at Bethel, then it happened with young men, not children, and thus, was not 'child abuse,' even if innappropriate. It's most unlikely that abuse accusations here remotely approach the gravity of the Church leaders.

Lastly, we come to

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 a 80+-year GB member (Fred Franz) who had made it a longstanding practice to meet with more than a dozen naked and semi-naked 19-year olds in the sauna (steam room), who came there to listen to his Bible discussions for up to two hours every Wednesday night.

Firstly, I accept you as a truthful source. Having said that, I am in no position to verify matters so my acceptance cannot be taken without a grain of salt. And I'm not saying that the above is great, but come on! We are contrasting this with serial rapists in the Church! And while perhaps the 80+ year old was 'getting off,' perhaps he was not. When I was in a health club years ago, it was not unusual for guys to sit in the sauna naked after a workout - I honestly don't remember it I ever did or not; I think I probably did. Guys his age will remember the YMCA, where boys and men routinely swam together naked; I remember that well as a child, and he probably had 30 years on me.

Moreover, not all in the sauna were naked. Some in the sauna were "semi-naked." Do you ever find anyone fully clothed in the sauna? When you go to the beach, aren't they semi-naked there? And what about the pervert Michelangelo, who sculpted 'David?' And aren't ALL art students - aren't they all perverts, for they have all painted nude models? Look, many people consider the human body beautiful.

What about tattoo artists? In a reflective manner, I once asked one whether, when they are tattooing intimate areas, they get a charge out of it, or is it just art. "It's art!" he told me indignantly. What about nudist colonies? Are they all perverts? When my homeschooling wife made high-ranking friends in the school system, one of them asked her to join his group where they would swim...um, you know...naturally. Nudist colonies are frequented by entire families, including the children.

There is mass hysteria here is what I'm saying. All 'abuse' is not the same, and some is abuse only in the eye of the person determined to see it that way. It's why Economist Magazine advised in April, or was it August? - it was an A month - of 2009 that we should all get a grip on ourselves. Only ten percent of those on the sex registries pose any significant threat to the public. All the rest are better handled (my point, not theirs) through parental training such as is encouraged in the Caleb and Sophia series. 

There! Much ado about little, in my estimation. I did not say it was obscene for commissions to examine any accusation of abuse that they see fit to examine; that's what commissions do. But I continue to hold that it is obscene not to slap down anyone who would attempt to equate abuse in Jehovah's organization with abuse in the general religious world. After all, unlike most religions, our spiritual bread and butter emphasizes keeping ourselves morally chaste. Surely, some of that training sticks and gives us a leg up on persons who don't receive it.

[Evacuated]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we still want to avoid using the idea as a kind of defeatism

Agree entirely, but I do not think that recognition of an inevitable escalation of disaster as this system of things reaches it's end creates a defeatist attitude.

For example, we know that Jesus said "the love of the greater number will grow cold" Matt.24:12, Paul said that "men will be....having no natural affection" 2Tim.3:1-3, but this doesn't stop the ever growing Christian congregation to be characterised by "love" John 13:34? And neither does the inevetible deterioration of men's attitudes to God's rulership cause us to lessen our efforts to preach "the good news of the kingdom" more extensively and with more ingenuity, helping any who respond to become disciples. 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't know why your point about 1855 should serve to modify the remark

A plague in Asia lasting from 1855 to 1959 killing many millions of people serves adequately in my mind as a reason to modify this remark: 

On 5/23/2017 at 0:49 AM, JW Insider said:

, but plagues are no longer the kind of worry they were during the days of exploration from the 13th to the 17th centuries.

You have now expanded the scope of your use of the terms "plague" and "child abuse" anyway which is good, but only serves to reinforce the point I am making about the illusion of progress in handling these issues.

Anyway, I think my earlier observation about this subject arousing a tendency to "shoot from the hip" is well substantiated by the some of the content of postings here.

[bruceq]

 JW Insider said:

The rights that Jehovah has to create a prophetic drama by having a specific situation played out is not relevant at all to how we handle matters of abuse today.

Eoin Joyce

 

Absolutely!

 

             "ALL Scripture is inspired of God and BENEFICIAL for teaching,  for reproving, for SETTING THINGS STRAIGHT,  for disciplining in righteousness,   so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work". 2 Tim 3:16

            " For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope". Rom 15:4

"Trust in Jehovah with all your heartAnd do not rely on your own understanding In all your ways take notice of him,And he will make your paths straight". Prov. 3:5,6

"Your word is a lamp to my foot,And a light for my path." Psalm 119:105

           "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart." Heb. 4:12

“The green grass dries up, the blossom withers, but the word of our God endures forever.”—ISA. 40:8

 

   Some appear to want to actually "reform" the policies of Jehovah's Organization as if they as a democracy know better. I disagree that it is up to any human to reform our theocratic Government. I believe that our commander and chief is Jesus as head of the Congregation. Therefore since the Scriptures is our constitution I believe the Scriptures are totally relevant and always will be relevant since the Bible is not the word of men but the Word of God. 1 Thess. 2:13 says :" when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God."

   As a victim of child abuse once told me that if one really believes we have the truth then one would never complain about how things are handled as Korah did. After all only Jehovah gives us a true hope regarding the temporary sufferings of abuses.  Just think of it, there will be a time that lasts forever when we will not even remember any of our past sufferings. If a doctor can give you medication to "forget" a very painful medical procedure then surely Jehovah is telling us the truth when he says: "For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;And the former things will not be called to mind,  Nor will they come up into the heart .  So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating." Isa. 65:17,18.

 

 

[JW Insider]

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Surely the same GB member who told you of certain doings also told you about Proverbs 11:13. Clearly, there is something 1 Corinthians 5: 1-8esqe about your posting this here.

The time period in which I worked for this particular GB member lasted 5 years, although it was rarely full-time. But it was a very topsy-turvy time at Bethel, and even for this GB member himself. One of the persons who worked on the Aid Book appeared somewhat effeminate in some of his mannerisms and this was sometimes used as a threat against him, not because he was homosexual --I'm sure he was not-- but because the Aid Book itself had stirred up some issues, resulting in elder arrangements, and therefore would cause a re-defined GB arrangement, and the questioning of most of our interpretations of chronology, prophecy, and so-called prophetic dramas, among many other things.

Since I considered both of these men to be nearly best friends at the time, the subject of "questionable sexuality" came up. He didn't want me associating too closely with the Aid Book researcher, who was also very good friends with Ray Franz, having both worked on the Aid Book together.

I say this because, it wasn't a matter of completely forgetting about Proverbs 11:13, because it wasn't like anyone actually revealed a confidential secret. I lived next door to Greenlees and was one of many who understood why there were rumors of his lapses. Chitty was already known from a long history of his friendship with Percy Chapman, who had been the Branch Servant for many years in Canada, and who was more openly homosexual. Rutherford didn't have a problem with him, but Knorr did. There were hushed rumors about Chitty and a "lover" that had therefore made the gossip rounds for many years. But I would agree with your sentiment about this not being a cause for accusation in Chitty's case. It was my guess, and this particular GB brother's claim, that nothing should be done unless someone acts on his proclivities, or unless the rumors themselves become damaging. He put both Chitty and the Aid Book researcher/writer in the same category (although I would disagree that they belonged in the same category). And, finally, it was only the rumors that finally got Chitty removed from Bethel and removed from the GB, according to this same GB source. Also, in the case of Fred Franz being held in high "a-steam," I went there myself once, against the advice of my roommate who said he had gone twice but it was very, very weird. I went once and I agreed with my roommate. I also agree with you, however, that times have changed. In my high school, we all took our showers together after gym, and in the Bethel factories, they did the same thing. This had a completely different "vibe" to it, however.

By the way, I also put child abuse and homosexuality in completely different categories, although I realize that there is a small area of potential overlap, just as there often is with heterosexuality.

My own reason for naming persons in such cases I can detail later. I will only name dead people, and only name names when other persons are already aware of it and have also already revealed these same things. The main point, as you can tell, is that even a little exposure can keep us from becoming too self-righteous as an organization, or keep us from thinking that hiding something for a while will keep things hidden forever. I've seen plenty of evidence that exposure actually helps in the long run, while trying to keep all dirty laundry under wraps just makes it worse for all of us, and for potential converts, too.  

[Anna]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

that even a little exposure can keep us from becoming too self-righteous as an organization, or keep us from thinking that hiding something for a while will keep things hidden forever. I've seen plenty of evidence that exposure actually helps in the long run, while trying to keep all dirty laundry under wraps just makes it worse for all of us, and for potential converts, too.  

Couldn't agree more

[TrueTomHarley]

On 5/23/2017 at 2:52 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

 

Is this referring to those who criticize JW procedure in handling cases of child abuse?

I am not even willing to accede the moral high ground to these anti-pedophile zealots. Let them claim some progress before we do that. They have succeeded in shaming people, punishing many, and wallpapering the world with sex registry lists. Let them attain some progress in stopping child abuse before we rush to proclaim them heroes.

Though not parallel in all respects, the following is parallel in more ways than not: Nobody claims victory over drugs because many dealers and users have been sent to jail. Instead, they realize that taking out a drug dealer clears the way for ten waiting to take his place. They realize that ever more potent drugs are being devised, and ever more ways to ensnare people. They don’t crow that they are stopping drug abuse; instead, they realize they’re getting their heads handed to them on a platter.

So far, pedophilia is following the same pattern as drug abuse. Ever more sordid and vicious forms are being devised. Persons respected, in various walks of life, are continually being exposed, yet they simply are replaced by others. Those who must track child sexual abuse online in the course of their job describe it as Medusa – one look and it turns you to stone. Moreover, the fight against pedophilia is mostly confined to monied lands. Few care in non-monied lands, as you pointed out.

It is ever like the zealots of this world to charge around loudly, point fingers everywhere, punish some, shame others, and then, on the basis of their good intentions alone, claim victory. Let them actually achieve victory before we hail them as modern saviors.

Let them come to grips with the causes of pedophilia. In a world that relentlessly pushes sex into ever expanding frontiers, crossing same-sex lines, encouraging lifestyles of multiple, ever changing lovers, embracing sexual activity of kids at ages younger and younger, hailing new exciting sexual positions and methods, it is unlikely to find success declaring every form of sex fine and wonderful except ONE THAT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED! The best defense will be the continual Bible training at the Kingdom Hall to keep yourself clean of every sort of fleshly defilement, to be had from the one religion training its members to properly integrate sexuality into their personalities – as neither the focus or life nor something to be frowned upon in its proper context. Ones of that religion should be portrayed as the heroes in this drama (even if flawed), never the villains.
 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

.... for pedophilia, substitute the phrase "FIRST DEGREE MURDER",  and see if your argument still makes sense.

If it does, you are OK.

If it does NOT .. there are flaws in the moral high ground attempted ... by requiring a HIGHER moral high ground of others.

Go ahead, be a sport.... try it out!

.

 

.

 

[Evacuated]

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.... for pedophilia, substitute the phrase "FIRST DEGREE MURDER",  and see if your argument still makes sense.

Good tip. All works for me.

But....don't think "who has the moral high ground?" is a particularly constructive element to this particular discussion? I mean, this is a global problem. No-one has successfully handled it as far as I can see. Apart from the obvious answer, "Jehovah God has the moral high ground in any issue" (Is.33:22; Lu.18:19), the question otherwise is simply................ rhetorical.

The pupose of the original post was to keep an awareness of fact relating to the current situation in UK regarding attempts to lobby the The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) to include Jehovah's Witnesses on their investigation program.

Cutting through opinion, useful perspective that has come out of the discussion for me so far includes:

• Confirmation that a "shooting from the hip" reaction characterises many responses to this particlar subject. (A reason for raising the topic in the first place).
• Religious affiliation is generally not reported on in child abuse cases unless a religious official is involved. This contrasts with cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses, where, frequently, even the slimmest connection can draw full media attention.
• Bizarre, anecdotal accounts of sexual impropriety amongst JW "dignitaries" abound. However, there is a shortage of factual or verifiable information on these cases. Hence the welcome nature of public investigation (in general that is, not the specifically of the alleged incidents).
• Definition of what constitutes child abuse has a cultural dimension. Much information available generally on occurence and intervention attempts has an Ameri/Eurocentric bias which distorts awareness of the extent of the problem, and the nature and effectiveness of attempts to deal with it.