JW's in Malawi vs. Mexico: Why the Disparity?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Oh, and by the way ... when EVERYBODY in a country buys a political party card... and by law ... there is ONLY ONE political party in the entire nation ... what REALITY is, is that the card is a National Identification Card. 

THAT IS WHY ... in Malawi, those who were NOT indigenous to Africa, were exempted.

Before you scroll down ... what would you think of a Brother, or a collection of Brothers,  who in order to get official government documents,  ACTUALLY SWORE ALLEGIANCE TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ?   Pretty despicable, huh?  Especially... ESPECIALLY  in light of the Malawi rulings that got PEOPLE KILLED AND TORTURED !

Would you even want to associate with such people, claiming allegiance exclusively to God's Kingdom by Christ Jesus ... while committing TREASON against God, by giving their allegiance to a political nation?   And for what?

Now ..... after you have considered these despicable actions by Brothers for selfish, worldly reasons ..... scroll down

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[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

.. and by the way ... please read from their passport applications what they ACTUALLY swore allegiance to ....

I worked out in the yard today 8 hours, pouring concrete and digging ditches, and pulling wires, came in exhausted, and had two beers ... Pabst Blue Ribbon beer,  considering what you have just read ... you are allowed seven beers.

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or maoooore, if you feel the need.

 

[Evacuated]

Another subject that seems to fan the flames.

Malawi Congress Party card? Purchase seeming to endorse the Banda personality-cult dictatorship with all it's trimmings. Can't see any difference with the "Heil Hitler" salute myself. I see it as an act of worship. Violates Jehovah's law.

Mexican military service cartilla? Corrupt system where mid-ranking officials impose "unofficial tax" to endorse marching participation certification. Common and generally tolerated (not approved) practice, along with other similar "unofficial" charges for Government administrative services. Document does not exempt from military service at time of war, but allows for obtaining other legal documentation such as driving and travel permits. Show me an incorrupt government. Make your choice. Accept the consequence. It's up to you. Conscience matter for me.

Oath of allegience to US? Can't see why GB members are singled out? Excuse my ignorance, but isn't this oath taken by anyone getting a US passport or becoming a US citizen? There should be 1000's of photos here. Seems to be an affirmation to uphold US values? Seems to reflect the spirit of Rom 13:7. Even constitutional rights are reflected in the wording of the oath. We are not suggesting that JWs can't take oaths are we? (another thread for that please, although that topic would seem dead in the water.) It's up to you. Conscience matter for me.

Has anyone considered the comparative consequences of action in connection with these issues?

That might indicate something in connection with their importance to a Christian.

 

[Micah Ong]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Accept the consequence. It's up to you. Conscience matter for me.

So the point being made here is the poor Malawian brothers had to go through brutal torture rape and murder...

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

spirit of Rom 13:7

They couldn't apply Romans 13:7 according to you and the GB and purchase political card in order to avoid the horrible ramifications.  They were looking to the GB for guidance and they were encouraged not to obtain one in order to be loyal to Jehovah, when it seems to be a grey area with regards to themselves and the Governing Body.

I'm guessing and hoping you would think otherwise if you were one of the Malawian sisters and then found out what happened with Mexico.

Please have a soul and compassion. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Please note that on each of the Governing Body's passport applications it it crystal clear that it is an OATH OF ALLEGIANCE ... and that before Jehovah God they all swore to "bear true faith and allegiance" ... and WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION, AND THAT THEY WOULD SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION AGAINST ALL ENEMIES,  FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.

There is absolutely NO way a SANE person can get around what they did ... with fifty words or a million words.

The Malawi Party card was a national identity card that required NO OATH OF ALLEGIANCE, and was basically, a tax of 25 cents.

I spent time in the Congo  .... that was about a half day's pay at the time.

When my boys were growing up, they were members of the U.S. Air Force auxiliary, the Civil Air Patrol, which was basically the Boy Scouts, with airplanes ... and it did not require my sons to swear any oath of allegiance to ANYTHING, or pledge allegiance to any flag, which they also did not do.

I was there at EVERY meeting and exercise and watched, as the peer pressure on them by students and instructors was intense ... and they got to see FIRST HAND how the flag of the United States is literally worshiped in "color guard" ceremonies, and such.  My son, Yannick, was expelled from the classroom ( and me with him) for refusing to pledge allegiance to the Flag, and we went outside to see the most magnificent rainbow across the airfield I have EVER seen, in person or in ANY photographs.

It was close up, fully saturated colors, brilliantly lit  with sharply defined wide banded spectral  bows, went from left horizon to right horizon completely, and was against a background of dark rain clouds.

It is my strong personal opinion, and I am a natural skeptic about such things, that this was Jehovah God showing his pride in my son's actions.

I was so stunned, I ran back to the classroom, and burst in, and told everybody about the rainbow, and they abandoned their teacher to run outside to see it.

Later on, the teacher, a retired Marine aviation mechanic, came and apologized for his losing his temper and throwing Yannick out.

He did not know that I had previously cleared it with the Squadron Commander that my boys could be Cadets without any oath or pledge requirements whatsoever ... and apparently he got chewed out for his demands.

By the way, the Civil Air Patrol has NO weapons, and only does search and rescue of downed aircraft, with airplanes, etc. They would not even allow my boys to have knives, on camping trips ... so I bought them hatchets, and sharpened them.

 

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[TrueTomHarley]

I shouldn't do it. I really shouldn't. Admin will get mad. Even the Librarian may not be able to save me, and she might even get fed up in trying. She is so tired of my sticking an automobile muffler in the philosophy section of her card catalog just to mess with her mind, which....let's face it...at 89, has seen better days. Even fine Eoin will be upset, wasting bytes. No, I shouldn't do it.

On the other hand, we are on this stage for only a short time. What the hell

I found especially refreshing the following part of JTR's comment, just following 'scroll down:'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do I go after JTR? He is not the only offender. He has much worthy competition. It gets so old for big babies to carry on and on and on about ones who have RUINED THEIR LIVES! There's no end of things that will ruin your life. In fact, life itself ruins it, for when the clock runs out in this "version of death we call life" (Bob Dylan) after our 80+ (hopefully) years, off to the grave we go, regardless of whether we were geniuses or fools. Why do these characters never even mention the central hope of everlasting life in a new system of things? Forgive me if I speculate it is because they barely believe in it anymore, so they rage at blips of the past, which are sometimes quite serious, trying to spin a villainous conspiracy out of each one. 'Real life' of 1 Timothy 6:19 be damned, they seem to say. THIS is the real life. For crying out loud, if your life is RUINED, suck it up and start a new one! 

Or these whiney characters who WILL NOT COOPERATE and who insist cooperation is evil if it in any way results in being told what to do, as though the BRAVE FOUNDING FOREFATHERS WHO DIED ON THE HILLS AND HALLS OF IWO JIMA were not told what to do, and whose notion of Christianity is a motley collection of loose cannons, each positively oozing in love for everything and everybody, except ones they don't like. They are boundless in their joy and love and peace, until it turns out that one favored Trump and the other Hillary, at which point they assassinate each other. 

'Daring and self-willed, they are not afraid to speak abusively of glorious ones' says 2 Peter. No, they certainly are not. Who are the 'glorious ones' they are not afraid to speak abusively of?

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Please note that on each of the Governing Body's passport applications it it crystal clear that it is an OATH OF ALLEGIANCE ... and that before Jehovah God they all swore to "bear true faith and allegiance" ... and WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION, AND THAT THEY WOULD SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION AGAINST ALL ENEMIES,  FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.

This type of situation has always resulted in double-think (a form of NON-thinking) or, as the psychologists say, a form of "cognitive dissonance."

*** w76 12/1 p. 712 Insight on the News ***
What Makes a Good Citizen?
● A Danish family was recently denied Canadian citizenship by the Federal Court of Appeal. Yet Mr. Justice George Addy of the court wrote that “both Appellants impressed me as being good, honest people with a deep religious faith which they translate into action in their daily lives. They are members of the movement known as Jehovah’s Witnesses . . . Both he and his wife are apparently strong believers in the work ethic and have never taken advantage of the social benefits provided for in our society. . . . Their children are exceptionally clean-cut and alert and the family from all appearances is a model one.”
Then why the denial of citizenship by this very judge? “The single obstacle to a grant of citizenship,” writes Ian Hunter of the University of Western Ontario law faculty, was the fact that, in taking the oath of allegiance, they would not agree to participate in any war effort.

The very person who wrote this knew that in his own "Oath of Allegiance" he had promised to participate in the defense of the constitution from all enemies, both foreign, and domestic. His wife took almost the identical citizenship oath referred to in the article.

Saluting the flag is just a preamble to the more serious "pledge of allegiance" that adults will be asked to sign or affirm if they are changing citizenship or will travel outside the country. The same person who wrote this also has claimed (to others) that he is finally withdrawing himself from defending the Watchtower's position on blood, after a quarter-century of not personally believing what he was famous for strongly defending. (For that matter, Ray Franz also claims that he defended the 1914 chronology for several years after discovering it was not Biblically supported, while researching the Chronology article in the Aid Book.)

In an almost related story, I've read (never confirmed) that the reason the Society changed their views against vaccinations was because several brothers needed to travel to other countries, and vaccinations were required for travel.

[TrueTomHarley]

Moreover, reading the excerpts of Ray's book provided here, one gains the impression of a tolerably decent man who, nonetheless, takes himself too seriously, and goes weak-kneed when matters of human organization go awry, lifting his conscience above those of all others, as though he alone is concerned about the suffering of others and everyone else thinks it is a big joke. 

To be crude, (something I always try to avoid) you have to have BALLS driving any vehicle with a few million passengers. You will invariably hit some potholes. Some will cause damage to your undercarraige, and you can be sure not all passengers will refrain from second guessing you, especially when you think yourself that maybe you could have avoided that pothole.

I wouldn't last five minutes with such responsibility. It would have been no shame on Ray to merely have stepped aside yet remained in the vehicle, for outside there are only yoyos trying to make the journey on roller skates and pogo sticks. I will even allow that he did not anticipate that every villainous hater of God's organization would lionize him as a modern-day Joan of Arc. Nonetheless, it has worked out that way.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Tom, Tom, Tommy Tom Tom ...

Being one of Jehovah's Witnesses was the greatest thing that could have happened to me .. and I marvel that it actually did happen.  No one has ruined my life, at all .... I live a GREAT life, and would not change a thing ... (don't mess with the time stream, if you could, you may end up as a butterfly or Schrodinger's cat ...).

I cry for the Brothers and Sisters who did NOT have the fortitude,  independence, or gumption to resist stupidity, and PubSpeak.

I carry my bags of rocks without complaint ... but there are ones who are loaded down with bad philosophy disguised as the truth from God, and, and have no natural defenses against it .. . and they are broken, crushed,  and chased away  ... THAT infuriates me.    THAT I complain about.

With millions of words, which always BECOME hypnosis ... JW.ORG has become JW.BORG, and I refuse to be assimilated.

besides, ... all those hoses in ones' cheeks have to be cumbersome ...

I am not of the opinion that it is all just a butterfly's bad dream.

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[TrueTomHarley]

27 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

To be crude, (something I always try to avoid) you have to have BALLS driving any vehicle with a few million passengers.

(quoting himself...is TrueTom full of himself, or what?)

I view of this, it is surprising that JTR rails against the GB, for he admires greatly the campaigns of those who have fought FOR OUR RIGHTS AND OUR FREEDOMS AND YOU SHOULD THANK HEAVEN EVERY DAY FOR SUCH BRAVE MEN, TO WHOM YOU CANNOT HOLD A CANDLE, YOU WORM, yet he completely overlooks the fact that men were mowed down by the thousands by errors, by concerns of the 'greater good,' by pure intransigence. A scene comes to mind from Clint Eastwood's first WWII film in which a cavorting sailor topples overboard and it dawns upon his chums that nobody will save him - he will be left to drown. If JTR approached this as he approaches ones taking the lead in theocratic warfare, he would rail on endlessly. Surely one of the following ships could have thrown him a lifeline if they truly gave a shit about life.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Thomas:

The reason no one saves someone that has fallen overboard, in certain circumstances, is because to stop the ship for a rescue makes that ship EXTREMELY vulnerable to submarine torpedo attack, and EVERYBODY on board knows this.  

Many a merchant marine sailor has learned this the hard way, by falling overboard while transporting cargo across oceans, and having to watch the convoy DELIBERATELY leave him in the middle of the ocean to die.  

WHAT IS AN ACCEPTABLE CASUALTY RATE FOR BROTHERS AND SISTERS BEING CHASED AWAY?

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[TrueTomHarley]

12 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Tom, Tom, Tommy Tom Tom ...

The name is TrueTom. Or if you MUST truncate it, just say True.