The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.

[PeterR]

56 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

David Splane 'splained it, on video somewhere, with a chart. It shouldn't be too hard to find.

Somewhere in Genesis there is a verse (search: generation) that says the generation of, I think, Joseph, passed on.

 

So if this is the basis for your belief, then probably what you'll want to do is first of all find out which bible book your foundational scripture is in. (It's Exodus by the way.)

 

Ex 1:6 - Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.

 

It's not a complicated scripture.

Let me ask you this. If you die in 2017 and all your brothers and all your generation also die at some point, what does "generation" mean if you don't impose any weirdness on the text? Do your precise birth and death times change the fundamental meaning of the word generation?

Of course there are overlaps in a "generation". The only possible way for there not to be overlaps would be for each generation to have a batch of children be born at the same minute of a certain year, and die at a simultanous minute of a later year.

But does your grandfather suddenly become part of your generation just because your life overlapped with him? Does that overlap of a few years between you and your brothers give latitude to distort the language to allow for President Kennedy to be of your generation even if your life overlapped with him?

 

Quote

That's all there is to it.

 

 

 

[Evacuated]

17 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

David Splane 'splained it, on video somewhere, with a chart.

Still banging on about the "generation" here are we? Well, nothing wrong with that (Acts 1:6), as long as we don't fall out over it.

Interesting quote in 2008 WT 15 Feb:

"The word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1:6 tells us: “Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.” Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in “that generation” were some of Joseph’s brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. (Gen. 50:24) Others of “that generation,” such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died.
  So when the term “generation” is used with reference to people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated except that it does have an end and would not be excessively long. Therefore, by using the term “this generation,” as recorded at Matthew 24:34, Jesus did not give his disciples a formula to enable them to determine when “the last days” would end. Rather, Jesus went on to emphasize that they would not know “that day and hour.”—2 Tim. 3:1; Matt. 24:36."

Is that difficult to grasp? Is there something wrong with me because I think I understand what this says?

And it considerably precedes JW Broadcasting and Brother Splane's discussion in (I think) 2015.

 I find it infinitly easier to understand compared to this attempt : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overlapping_generations_model

[JW Insider]

28 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Still banging on about the "generation" here are we? Well, nothing wrong with that (Acts 1:6), as long as we don't fall out over it.

Actually, Acts 1:7 says there is something wrong with us banging on about the generation. It says it's none of our concern. It's not in our domain. Knowledge of the times and seasons does not belong to us. It belongs to the Father alone. Anyone who tries is overstepping their authority.

(Acts 1:7) . . .” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction [NWT fn: "authority"].

This is why Paul could say that we don't need anything written to us about chronology:

(1 Thessalonians 5:1) Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

[JW Insider]

On 6/19/2017 at 6:42 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Interesting quote in 2008 WT 15 Feb:

"The word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1:6 tells us: “Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.” Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in “that generation” were some of Joseph’s brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. (Gen. 50:24) Others of “that generation,” such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died.
  So when the term “generation” is used with reference to people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated except that it does have an end and would not be excessively long. Therefore, by using the term “this generation,” as recorded at Matthew 24:34, Jesus did not give his disciples a formula to enable them to determine when “the last days” would end. Rather, Jesus went on to emphasize that they would not know “that day and hour.”—2 Tim. 3:1; Matt. 24:36."

Is that difficult to grasp? Is there something wrong with me because I think I understand what this says?

This is not difficult to grasp at all. But I do think there is something wrong with thinking that this says the same thing as the current publications are saying. It may have been a "trial balloon" for the current doctrine, but it's very different from the current doctrine.

On 6/19/2017 at 6:42 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

 I find it infinitly easier to understand compared to this attempt : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overlapping_generations_model

That is a very sensible explanation of the economics-related overlapping generations model. Note that it is plural as it ought to be. Quoting, the article, with extra highlighting, it states:

Quote

Wikipedia: ". . . it is the natural framework to study the allocation of resources across the different generations."

The Watchtower "model" is the singular, and very non-sensical "overlapping generation" model. The difference one little "s" can make is important. Note that in Spanish "esposa" means wife, but "esposas" means handcuffs.  For most people, that's quite an important difference.

 

[Evacuated]

Just now, JW Insider said:

It says it's none of our concern

Now (with respect) don't you overstep either. This refers to " the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction".

There's absolutely nothing wrong in being interested in these times and seasons, as long as we try to avoid (with difficulty on occasion) the snare of second guessing Jehovahs timetable.

And we can also be very interested in those "times and seasons that the Father has not placed in, or has released from, "his own jurisdiction". (There is ample evidence of this in the Hebrew Scriptures).

And a healthy interest in such matters is encouraged by Jesus in his admonitions to "keep on the watch", and illustrations in connection with "slaves" and "virgins", regardless of not knowing the day or hour.

Also by Peter at 1Pet.1:10-11: "Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search.  They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow.."
and 2Pet.3:12 "........await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah......."

And indeed the apostle Paul: Romans 13:17 And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers." 1Cor.7:29 "...the time left is reduced..." 

And with regard to an appropriate level of interest, the 2008 Watchtower quoted earlier demonstrates this adequately for me in that it states: "Therefore, by using the term “this generation,” as recorded at Matthew 24:34, Jesus did not give his disciples a formula to enable them to determine when “the last days” would end. Rather, Jesus went on to emphasize that they would not know “that day and hour.”

[JW Insider]

7 minutes ago, Anna said:

But please all carry on, it's an interesting discussion, although already discussed elsewhere on this forum.

OK.

As was already pointed out, we have always known that a generation can include overlapping contemporaries, but these contemporaries belong to another generation. The Watchtower has said that "three or even four generations" may overlap at the same time. So the overlapping explanation is not about how to define a single "generation that will not pass away." My own issue with the current explanation has more to do with the disrespect it shows to Jesus, in trying to twist up the meaning of language so much that we have inadvertently tried to present him as some kind of trickster.

*** w52 9/1 pp. 542-543 Questions From Readers ***
Your publications point out that the battle of Armageddon will come in this generation, and that this generation began A.D. 1914. Scripturally, how long is a generation?—G. P., Liberia.
Webster’s unabridged dictionary gives, in part, this definition of generation: “The average lifetime of man, or the ordinary period of time at which one rank follows another, or father is succeeded by child; an age. A generation is usually taken to be about 33 years.” But the Bible is not so specific. It gives no number of years for a generation. And in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, the texts mentioning the generation the question refers to, we are not to take generation as meaning the average time for one generation to be succeeded by the next, as Webster’s does in its 33-year approximation; but rather more like Webster’s first-quoted definition, “the average lifetime of man.” Three or even four generations may be living at the same time, their lives overlapping. (Ps. 78:4; 145:4) Before the Noachian flood the life span was hundreds of years. Down through the centuries since, it has varied, and even now is different in different countries. The Bible does speak of a man’s days as being threescore and ten or fourscore years; but it assigns no specific number of years to a generation.—Ps. 90:10.
Even if it did, we could not calculate from such a figure the date of Armageddon, for the texts here under discussion do not say God’s battle comes right at the end of this generation, but before its end. To try to say how many years before its end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation. There are hundreds of millions of persons living now that were living in 1914, and many millions of these persons could yet live a score or more years. Just when the lives of the majority of them will be cut short by Armageddon we cannot say.

 

 

[Evacuated]

19 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The difference on little "s" can make is important. Note that in Spanish "esposa" means wife, but "esposas" means handcuffs.

True, but irrelevant to the generation discussion. We all know that the generation of 1914, consists of a number of generations any way you care to slice and dice those living in these "last days".

22 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

To explain what I mean, I will first wait and see if the Librarian, or some moderator, wants to first put this topic in a proper category.

Very good point actually, but such an irresistable discussion!. Anyway, I'm out of here until discipline is restored. No disrespect to @JWInsider. Apologies to @Librarian. 

[JW Insider]

I'm glad that The Librarian moved the "generation" posts from the unrelated topic over to this topic. It was clear that on this topic, the questions remain unsettled to some and unsettling to others.

In addition to the posts that have already been moved over from that other topic, questions came up about whether belief in the current "overlapping generation" doctrine was optional, or perhaps less important than other doctrines. Perhaps it is not a topic that we promote to new persons but have them consider it when they are better prepared for it. Another question (mine) was whether we should get involved in discussions of chronology at all.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Assuming the formula is stated correctly ( and it's NOT ... ) the answer is "minus 8 pi alpha".

I guess I will note here that I called True TomHarley's bluff in the previous thread, and challenged  him to explain the "overlapping generations" in such a simple manner that EVEN AH could understand it ... and he looked at his cards, and folded.

A shame really ... I was hoping to understand what appears to me to be gobbledegook, as all the Elders and other JWs I asked to explain it to me were also unable to do so.  

SOOooo, after declaring how simple it was, TTH was unable to explain it to me in his own words ...  which means to me that he CANNOT believe it himself, as he cannot explain it to anyone else in his own words... after challenged to ACTUALLY do so.

If loyal defenders of the doctrine cannot explain it ..... how can they POSSIBLY believe it themselves?

Even though TTH folded under challenge, JTR knows that even  TBBT's Sheldon Cooper is stumped sometimes, even by a Feynman Diagram ... and the Janitor sitting next to him instantly has the correct answer.

"Go Polar Bears!"

The pathetic shame of it all is TTH REALLY believes ... that he really believes it.

[Anna]

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Assuming the formula is stated correctly ( and it's NOT ... ) the answer is "minus 8 pi alpha".

I guess I will note here that I called True TomHarley's bluff in the previous thread, and challenged  him to explain the "overlapping generations" in such a simple manner that EVEN AH could understand it ... and he looked at his cards, and folded.

A shame really ... I was hoping to understand what appears to me to be gobbledegook, as all the Elders and other JWs I asked to explain it to me were also unable to do so.  

SOOooo, after declaring how simple it was, TTH was unable to explain it to me in his own words ...  which means to me that he CANNOT believe it himself, as he cannot explain it to anyone else in his own words... after challenged to ACTUALLY do so.

If loyal defenders of the doctrine cannot explain it ..... how can they POSSIBLY believe it themselves?

Even though TTH folded under challenge, JTR knows that even  TBBT's Sheldon Cooper is stumped sometimes, even by a Feynman Diagram ... and the Janitor sitting next to him instantly has the correct answer.

"Go Polar Bears!"

The pathetic shame of it all is TTH REALLY believes ... that he really believes it.

 

No offense JTR but maybe you should take your bickering with TTH to another thread. We are trying to have a serious and (if possible) fruitful discussion here. I still owe you an answer on the other thread, but unfortunately it doesn't fit the topic either, since you have fractured it into several other topics and keep doing so by bringing up unrelated issues (via cartoons etc.) Still, I will try and return to it later.

[JW Insider]

@Eoin Joyce quoted one of the first real hints of the overlapping generation doctrine from the Feb 15, 2008 WT (above).

Above, I also quoted a WT QFR that mentioned overlapping generations from the Sept. 1, 1952 WT, and it showed why overlapping generations do not effect the length of the generation Jesus spoke about.

After the 2008 article, there was also a more recent mention of the some of the same points repeated in the April 15, 2010 WT, and this 2010 article was the first to explicitly create a generation that is defined by the overlap of two specific groups: One group saw the start of an event, and another group could not have seen the start of that event, but would see the start of a different event, not more than two lifespans from the first event:

*** w10 4/15 pp. 10-11 pars. 13-14 Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose ***
13 Third, holy spirit is at work in bringing Bible truths to light. (Prov. 4:18) This magazine has long been used by “the faithful and discreet slave” as the primary channel for dispensing increased light. (Matt. 24:45) For example, consider our understanding of those who make up “this generation” mentioned by Jesus. (Read Matthew 24:32-34.) To what generation did Jesus refer? The article “Christ’s Presence—What Does It Mean to You?” explained that Jesus was referring, not to the wicked, but to his disciples, who were soon to be anointed with holy spirit. Jesus’ anointed followers, both in the first century and in our day, would be the ones who would not only see the sign but also discern its meaning—that Jesus “is near at the doors.”
14 What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicates that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.—Mark 13:37.

I included the paragraph that drops plenty of hints that this new idea is evidence of holy spirit at work, and that it represents the light of Bible truth, and that the source is the "faithful and discreet slave." This introduction stands together with the explanation in paragraph 14 that we don't know the length, that it "usually" refers to a given description, and that Jesus "evidently" refers to a version of what it "usually" refers to. The only points that are given with "sureness" are these:

• The generation had a beginning
• It will have an end
• The fulfillment of various features of the sign indicates that the tribulation must be near

Note that it isn't by believing in a potential 'two-lifespan' generation that we are keeping up with advancing light and the leadings of holy spirit, but only explcitly by maintaining a sense of urgency, and keeping on the watch. As Christians we would do this with or without the two-lifespan generation, based on other scriptures, for example:

(2 Timothy 4:1, 2) . . .: 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times. . .

(Ephesians 5:15, 16) 15 So keep strict watch that how you walk is not as unwise but as wise persons, 16 making the best use of your time, because the days are wicked.

(2 Peter 3:11, 12) . . .Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah. . .

 

[Anna]

I think we should explore this one a little further

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

whether belief in the current "overlapping generation" doctrine was optional, or perhaps less important than other doctrines

And leave this one for later

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Another question (mine) was whether we should get involved in discussions of chronology at all