ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[Shiwiii]

50 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Those who find that it isn't consistent, probably no longer see it as a central doctrine and therefore are able to dismiss it without causing a serious concern. I think it's because there is still so much more to the core teachings, and they might even seem enhanced in value when one critiques the overall set of remaining doctrines.

crazy how the passage of time negates the seriousness of a change in fundamental doctrine. Its one of the building blocks of the "core teachings" you referenced. This is not unlike a two legged chair, while it still can be used, it lacks the support needed to stand alone. 

[JW Insider]

53 minutes ago, bruceq said:

The first instance in the Biblical record when rain is specifically mentioned as falling is in the account of the Flood.

True. But what we were avoiding was the explicit statement that "Noah had never seen rain before" which was once considered an article of his faith.

[JW Insider]

44 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Its one of the building blocks of the "core teachings" you referenced.

As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with no hellfire, no Trinity, political neutrality, and not going to war for example. I consider the last one (no warfare) a major way in which we show we love our neighbor and even love our enemy. Those Christian concepts are rather difficult to justify by participating directly in warfare.

[Melinda Mills]

Thanks to Bruceq and JWI for the feedback on rain and water canopy.  These discussions help us to refine and update our understanding and do further research. Running off now to finish preparation for meeting. Greetings!

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

If people cannot grasp what the understanding was from 1874, 1878, 1881 to 1914, and what the Bible students under the direction of Pastor Russell figured out in 1915, about how the generations before 1914 would not experience?

Before I read your name, Gnosis Pithos, I read your first sentence and still didn't have a clue who you were. The second sentence was an immediate give-away, however, based purely on the style. I even knew exactly what city would come up if I looked up the IP address, which I won't publish here, because not everyone has access to this information. I glanced over at the name, and also recognized it as a name you used a couple years ago on jw-archive, where you also made it clear that it was only one of several alternate names you were using. When I did finally look up the IP, I was a bit surprised that "Gnosis Pithos" used the EXACT same IP address as Allen Smith, AllenSmith and JWTheologian etc, etc. Since your previous explanation was that JWTheologian might be another person in the same household as you, all I can say is that you must have a crowded house.

Anyway, I don't really care about that, I just thought it was a funny experience. But, no matter what, I'm wondering if you might be able to explain some of what you meant. For example, can you explain what the understanding was (from 1874, 1878, 1881 to 1914) that people cannot grasp? What had these Bible students under the direction of Russell figured out in 1915, about how the generations before 1914 would not experience?

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 6/25/2017 at 3:48 PM, JW Insider said:

(For many years, Daniel 4 on its own, had nothing to do with the "foundation" for 1914, although it was considered to be a weaker, but still valid, bit of corollary evidence by Russell.)

so if 607 BCE is such a clunker, how did it get to be a foundation in the first place? What is this about 'counting backwards?' The above quote seems to indicate otherwise. 

My vague impression has been that Russell or someone latched onto it strictly through Bible chronology and wasn't overly concerned that it wasn't prevailing opinion - surely something would eventually cause that opinion to come around, as often happens.  With 607 BCE as a starting point, it is just a Dan 4 calculation away from 1914. It is not that way?

As for the Gnosis mystery above, I assure that there are two scoundrels here as well that are chomping at the bit to chime in, but I am keeping a tight leash on them.

[TrueTomHarley]

16 minutes ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

If you refer to how the "librarian" deletes or block to DEFEND their regular commentators, then the IP we bounce off of would be the same

The old biddy.

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

so if 607 BCE is such a clunker, how did it get to be a foundation in the first place?

That's just it. It wasn't a foundation in the first place. The "foundation in the first place" was something called "Israel's Double" based on a now debunked idea that Israel would get a "double" amount of time, resulting in a parallel dispensation between Israel and Christianity, the Old and the New. Many Second Adventists scrambled quickly for new explanations after William Miller's spectacular failure. Miller had predicted Christ's Return in 1844, based mostly on the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14, coupled with the idea that the 7th Millennium had just dawned (6,000 years from Adam).

One of several popular updates to Miller's chronology, was to fix the start of the Millennium to 1872. Then "Israel's Double" counting from the death of Jacob (a.k.a. "Israel") to the death of Jesus in 33 C.E. gave the length of Israel's first dispensation (era/age). That was calculated to be 1,845 years. Adding 1,845 years to the year 33 C.E. showed that the second dispensation would end in 1878. 1845+33=1878.

But that was when Jesus had become King in 33 C.E. and therefore King again in 1878. Jesus became "present" as the Christ back in 29/30 C.E. and therefore also in 1874. But the preaching to Israel could last until 70 C.E. which was a full 40 years from the time Jesus started preaching after his baptism. Therefore, this was one of the reasons to believe in a 40 year "harvest" that would last from 1874 to 1914 (as it did from 30 to 70).

Therefore the October 1889 Watch Tower, and Volume II of Millennial Dawn (also in 1889), and several other issues of Zion's Watch Tower repeatedly spoke of "Israel's Double" especially since that time.

With this all in mind, recall our statements and the Scripture testimonies on the subject of Israel's double;--that the first part, from the beginning of the nation at the death of Jacob to the rejection of the nation at the death of Christ, was a period of 1845 years of waiting for the promised kingdom, during which they had divine favor and supervision (discipline, etc.); and that when they then rejected and crucified the Redeemer, they were sentenced to a "double" or repetition of their already long period of waiting --during which God would show them no favor, manifest no interest in them. Every Jew of intelligence and piety is able to recognize the fulfilment of these predictions of the prophets.--Zech. 9:12;Jer. 16:18; Isa. 40:2.

And note the fact so pointedly marked --that where their double of waiting for the Kingdom expired, the kingdom did come in 1878; which we think MILLENNIAL DAWN, Vol. II., clearly proves from the Scriptures.

And this must have been pretty convincing because the February 1890 Watch Tower prints approving letters about how persons have been responding to these latest publications. (Dawn content was also included as a replacement for the content of some recent Watch Tower issues in 1889.)  One person responded by trying to sell off everything and giving what was left over that he could offer to the Watch Tower:

DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:--After reading Dawn, Vol. II., the chapters on "The Times of the Gentiles," "The Jubilee Cycles," Israel's Double and the Time Chronology, I became convinced that we are indeed in the time of the harvest, while the chapter on the manner of our Lord's second coming and the harmony of present indications leaves no room for even a doubt. Then in place of marrying and settling down, as I undoubtedly would have done, I sold off my personal property, paid all my indebtedness except a mortgage on some land, to engage in this harvest work. As I have not as yet been able to sell the land, and it being mostly unimproved will not rent for enough to pay the interest on the mortgage and the taxes, I thought to spend about a week in the spring putting in enough of a crop to pay the expenses of the place till I can sell it. If I can sell it for even a good deal less than I thought it was worth two years ago, I would have a few hundred dollars left to use as an offering to the Lord. My neighbors thought me very foolish at the course I have taken, and when I began to hold up the truth I met with opposition, but our blessed Lord and Saviour suffered without the gates and we may go to him without the camp bearing his reproach. I esteem the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. I will not be afraid of them, neither of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks. Yours in the Lord, W. B__________.

All this is confirmed in the Proclaimers book:

*** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus’ baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King. They also thought they would be given their heavenly reward at that time. When that did not occur, they concluded that since Jesus’ anointed followers were to share with him in the Kingdom, the resurrection to spirit life of those already sleeping in death began then. It was also reasoned that the end of God’s special favor to natural Israel down to 36 C.E. might point to 1881 as the time when the special opportunity to become part of spiritual Israel would close. . . . That 1878 was a year of significance seemed to be fortified by reference to Jeremiah 16:18 (‘Jacob’s double,’ KJ) along with calculations indicating that 1,845 years had apparently elapsed from Jacob’s death down till 33 C.E., when natural Israel was cast off, and that the double, or duplicate, of this would extend from 33 C.E. down to 1878.
Extending the parallels further, it was stated that the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. (37 years after Jesus was hailed as king by his disciples when he rode into Jerusalem) might point to 1915 (37 years after 1878) for a culmination of anarchistic upheaval that they thought God would permit as a means for bringing existing institutions of the world to their end. This date appeared in reprints of Studies in the Scriptures. (See Volume II, pages 99-101, 171, 221, 232, 246-7; compare reprint of 1914 with earlier printings, such as the 1902 printing of Millennial Dawn.) It seemed to them that this fitted well with what had been published regarding the year 1914 as marking the end of the Gentile Times.

 

By the time of  "Dawn" (Volume II) it was beginning to be a more important part of the 1914 explanation. But even in the chapter on the Gentile Times, from page 73 up to page 90 of that chapter, Daniel 4 is not mentioned, yet, except as a reference to show that sometimes the word "times" can also refer to literal years. This is contrasted at first with the more important use of "seven times" in Leviticus that is a better match to Jesus' use of "times" in Luke 21:24. The real focus on the seven Gentile times was in Leviticus:

Now bear in mind the date already found for the beginning of these Gentile Times--viz., B.C. 606--while we proceed to examine the evidence proving their length to be 2520 years, ending A.D. 1914. . . .  

Turning to Leviticus we find recorded blessings and cursings of an earthly and temporal character. If Israel would obey God faithfully, they would be blessed above other nations; if not, certain evils would befall them. The conclusion is stated thus: "And I will walk among you and be your God, and ye shall be my people;...but if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments, ...I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies; they that hate you shall reign over you." "And ye shall sow your seed in vain; for your enemies shall eat it." "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, THEN I WILL PUNISH YOU SEVEN TIMES more [further] for your sins." Lev. 26:17,18,24,28

This threat of "seven times" of punishment is mentioned three times. . . .  But these chastisements having failed, he applied the threatened seven times: the crown was permanently removed, and Israel, as well as the whole world, was subject to the beastly powers for seven times. Thus it befell them according to God's warning--"If ye will not yet for all this [previous chastisements] hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times."

. . .  These seven times therefore refer to the length of time during which the Gentiles should rule over them. And to this period of "seven times" our Lord undoubtedly referred when speaking of "the Times of the Gentiles."

The tree dream is finally mentioned, however, at some length, from page 90 to 97. Russell uses it under the heading "Another Line of Testimony." But he admits that it is only through a type-antitype method because in Nebuchadnezzar's case this had referred to literal years:

  . . . the Hebrew word translated "seven times" in Leviticus 26:18,21,24,28, is the same word so translated in Daniel 4:16,23,25,32, except that in Daniel the word iddan is added, whereas in Leviticus it is left to be understood. . . . In Nebuchadnezzar's case they were literal years, but, as we shall yet see, both Nebuchadnezzar and his "seven times" were typical. . . .  True to Daniel's interpretation, we are told that "All this came upon the king, Nebuchadnezzar," and that in this insane, degraded, beastly condition he wandered among the beasts until seven times (seven literal years in his case) passed over him. Daniel's interpretation of the dream relates only to its fulfilment upon Nebuchadnezzar; but the fact that the dream, the interpretation and the fulfilment are all so carefully related here is evidence of an object in its narration. And its remarkable fitness as an illustration of the divine purpose in subjecting the whole race to the dominion of evil for its punishment and correction, that in due time God might restore and establish it in righteousness and everlasting life, warrants us in accepting it as an intended type. . . .  The exact date of Nebuchadnezzar's degradation is not stated, and is of no consequence, because the period of his degradation typified the entire period of Gentile dominion . . . .

I didn't have space to include all the statements that are ironic in their confusion about what Nebuchadnezzar represents. He represented the dominion of all nations, the whole race and dominion of evil. Yet only this Gentile's 7 years of degradation represented Gentile dominion, not his years of actual Gentile domination. His restoration to Gentile dominion therefore would represent the end of Gentile dominion when Jesus (a non-Gentile) is restored to the throne of Israel. 

1914 had already been established more clearly through other methods (which we no longer accept). However, by 1890 Russell was here treating Daniel 4 at least on par with all other evidence. It was a bit better than the treatment in that first article about the seven Gentile times he had published in the Bible Examiner back in October 1876. At best, initially, one could say that the seven times was not "dependent" on Daniel 4 alone, but that Daniel 4 provided supplementary evidence to Leviticus. In fact, Russell spoke of the "seven times" as a less clear method of showing that 1914 would see the end of the great time of trouble Gentile nations had caused. In Bible Examiner, after using mostly Leviticus, but also combined with Daniel 4, he had concluded:

We will ask, but not now answer, another question: If the Gentile Times end in 1914, (and there are many other and clearer evidences pointing to the same time) . . . 

Note, that it was the many other evidences that were clearer than either Leviticus or Daniel 4. These clearer evidences had already been based on 1874 and 1878 which Russell had shown were more sure because they had been indicated through so many different "independent" proofs.

[Evacuated]

On 6/27/2017 at 3:41 AM, JW Insider said:

we can't always just rule out every idea that appears unreasonable to human minds.

Indeed, because "a foolish thing with God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men" 1 Cor:1:25. (No dissertation on the specific context required here, the principle holds good). I don't want to stray into the "overlapping generation" topic, so will keep to 1914CE.

There is a great deal of background information in this thread, not least thanks to @JWInsider in pulling together relevant quotes and anecdotes.

The basic proposition that we have is set out clearly at Rev.12:10, which says (in part): "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ,".

Jehovah's Witnesses have stated unequivocally that this event took place in 1914CE. To support that view, they cite a chronological explanation; an assessment of world affairs; their own history and development; the response to, and the results from, their activity. An abundance of written material is available in support of these elements. Superceeded only, it would seem, by the abundance of material written in refutation.

Is there no one here who can state succinctly why they feel that the announcement of Rev.12:10 did not take place in 1914CE? 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Is there no one here who can state succinctly why they feel that the announcement of Rev.12:10 did not take place in 1914CE? 

I cannot state anything succinctly. But I can start out with a shorter answer and then expand on it later with a longer one.

I feel the announcement in Revelation 12:10 did not take place in 1914 because the Bible is VERY clear that this was not the year that the salvation and the power and kingdom of our God the authority of his Christ came to pass.

What was the occasion and event through which salvation came to pass? Clearly, at the latest, it was the year when Jesus died and was resurrected. So this chapter of Revelation is apparently referring to the time when the announcement about salvation came to pass. When was it? One might claim that it was when Jesus' birth was announced and it could therefore be announced that Jesus (meaning Jehovah is Salvation) would be bringing salvation to Israel and to the world. Was Satan angry at Jesus' birth? [Yes] Did Jesus come through the nation of Israel as God's woman [Yes], whose symbols were the moon and stars? [Yes]

Whether it was at his birth, the announcement through John, his ministry or through his death, there is Biblical evidence that the time period belongs here. Remember that the book of Revelation is the most malleable of all books and has been made to mean almost anything anyone would like to make from it. (Even our most recent book on Revelation is already out of date, and you could probably be disfellowshipped if you insisted on teaching obsolete portions of the 1963 Babylon Book, and you could scarcely find even one full page that's still considered to be true in the Revelation commentary (The Finished Mystery) that was considered to be truth back in 1917.)

So the best places to start understanding Revelation are going to be in the parts of the Bible that are outside of Revelation. So we start with the topic of salvation, because the announcement said that salvation came to pass at the same time as the authority and power and kingdom.

SALVATION

(Luke 19:9-11) 9 At this Jesus said to him: “Today salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.” 11 While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly.

(Luke 3:4-6) . . .“A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah! Make his roads straight. 5 Every valley must be filled up, and every mountain and hill leveled; the crooked ways must become straight, and the rough ways smooth; 6 and all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

(Luke 2:30-34) 30 because my eyes have seen your means of salvation 31 that you have prepared in the sight of all the peoples, 32 a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel.” 33 And the child’s father and mother continued wondering at the things being spoken about him. 34 Also, Simʹe·on blessed them and said to Mary, the child’s mother: “Look! This child is appointed for the falling and the rising again of many in Israel . . .

(Luke 1:68-80) . . .“Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance. 69 And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant, 70 just as he has spoken through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, 71 of a salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those hating us; . . . 79 to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow and to guide our feet in the way of peace.” 80 And the young child grew up and became strong in spirit, and he continued in the desert until the day he showed himself openly to Israel.

(Acts 4:12) 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

(Acts 28:27, 28) . . .’ 28 So let it be known to you that this salvation from God has been sent out to the nations; . . .

(Romans 1:16) 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

(2 Corinthians 6:2) 2 For he says: “In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.” Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.

(2 Timothy 2:10-12) 10 For this reason I go on enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is through Christ Jesus, along with everlasting glory. 11 This saying is trustworthy: Certainly if we died together, we will also live together; 12 if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings;. . .

(1 Peter 1:10, 11) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow.

For the most part the announcement of salvation was the announcement of the "good news" (the "good announcement"). We know that by the time Paul wrote 2 Corinthians, he could announce that "Now is the day of salvation."

It would be superfluous to say that another time would come up prior to the judgment and resurrection that somehow superseded this good news about salvation through Christ from the first century. In fact, it could even be said to contradict what Paul and others were saying. So I see no reason to claim that the announcement of Paul and Jesus had only a limited scope, or wasn't really true when they said it, but had to wait until some future date. Also, it would seem very presumptuous and haughty to negate the direct words of the Bible just so that it could be applied to a time when no one even noticed that Jesus had begun a presence, or had begun reigning.

POWER, AUTHORITY AND KINGDOM

And then we have all the Bible evidence that Jesus began reigning at the time when he began ruling as king -- which Paul says was when he sat down at the right hand of God.

And then we also have all the Bible evidence that Jesus was given all power and authority in the same year he died after his resurrection and his being seated at the right hand of God.

All this gives the impression that, in order to support 1914, we have been willing to contradict all the scriptures outside of Revelation just so that we can make a claim that fits a theory about a verse inside of Revelation.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Is there no one here who can state succinctly why they feel that the announcement of Rev.12:10 did not take place in 1914CE? 

Just in case anyone might not have been familiar with some of the verses mentioned in the bullet point list at the beginning of this discussion, we could spell out a few and add some more:

AUTHORITY

(Matthew 28:18) 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

(Ephesians 1:19-21) 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

(Colossians 1:11-16) 11 and may you be strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may endure fully with patience and joy, 12 as you thank the Father, who made you qualify to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in the light. 13 He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . . .

 

POWER

(Matthew 26:64) . . .“You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

(Mark 9:1-7) . . .“Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; 3 his outer garments began to glisten, becoming far whiter than any clothes cleaner on earth could whiten them. 4 Also, E·liʹjah with Moses appeared to them, and they were conversing with Jesus. 5 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Rabbi, it is fine for us to be here. So let us erect three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” 6 In fact, he did not know how to react, for they were quite fearful. 7 And a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud: “This is my Son, the beloved. Listen to him.”

(Romans 1:3, 4) 3 concerning his Son, who came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh, 4 but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord.

(Romans 1:16) 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

(1 Corinthians 1:24) 24 However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

(Ephesians 1:19-21) [already listed under authority]  It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

(Colossians 1:11-16) [already listed under authority] 11 and may you be strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may endure fully with patience and joy, . . .13 He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . . .

(Hebrews 1:3) 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(2 Peter 1:16-18) . . .we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard coming from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain.

KINGDOM

The topic of Kingdom was already included in another topic a few months ago, listing at least a dozen scriptures. But I will include a couple here:

(Matthew 27:11) 11 Jesus now stood before the governor, and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied: “You yourself say it.”

(1 Timothy 6:15) . . .He [Jesus] is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5) . . .Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”. . .

(1 Corinthians 15:24, 25) 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

[Melinda Mills]

"(Revelation 1:1) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John"

But the Revelation was given by God to Jesus then to John in the last decade of the first century after Jesus' ascension and He said the things were to take place shortly (2Pet 3:8); not about things that were already in effect like Jesus sitting at God's right hand which occurred in 33CE. 

 

Rev 12:10 is relating with joy the particular salvation referring to the permanent establishment of the Kingdom of God in the hands of Christ Jesus, poised to finish off this system of things and free from the interference of Satan and his demons (birth of Kingdom seen as male child safely caught away to God; and God's will being done in the heavens).  It coincides with Daniel 7:13,14,  (gaining access to be crowned) and will culminate in Daniel 2:35 (living at the time of the feet of the image) and Dan 2:44 (taking action toward the earth).  All these events signify waiting intervals. 

You would therefore have to show how these events link up with the expressions of salvation in other parts of the Bible.