ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[Anna]

35 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

We already know from other scriptures that Jesus became king in 33 C.E.

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

[ARchiv@L]

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

this is NOT what JW-insider wrote .... 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/39516-all-aspects-of-1914-doctrine-are-now-problematic-from-a-scriptural-point-of-view/?do=findComment&comment=56211

 

[Evacuated]

On 6/28/2017 at 0:22 PM, JW Insider said:

I feel the announcement in Revelation 12:10 did not take place in 1914

 

On 6/28/2017 at 0:22 PM, JW Insider said:

Clearly, at the latest, it was the year when Jesus died and was resurrected.

I have a couple of questions related to this if you don't mind.

1. Are you saying that the war between Michael and Satan and the casting out of Satan and his angels preceded the event referred to at Rev.12:10,  and by this reckoning took place earlier than "the year when Jesus died and was resurrected"?

2. What do you think  "the short period of time" mentioned at Rev 12:12 refers to?

[ARchiv@L]

*** w14 1/15 p. 11 par. 17 Worship Jehovah, the King of Eternity ***
17 When would Jesus begin to rule as King of God’s Kingdom? He could not do so immediately. The very next afternoon, Jesus was executed and his followers scattered. (John 16:32) However, as in times past, Jehovah remained in control. On the third day, he resurrected his Son, and on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus established a spiritual kingdom over the Christian congregation of his anointed brothers. (Col. 1:13) Still, Jesus would have to wait to take up full kingly power over the earth as the promised “offspring.” Jehovah told his Son: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”—Ps. 110:1.
*** w14 4/1 p. 16 Bible Questions Answered ***
In the year 33 C.E., Jesus died, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven. Much later, Jesus was given authority to rule as King. (Daniel 7:13, 14) In the future, Jesus will take action as King to establish world peace and eliminate poverty.—
 

[ARchiv@L]

*** w09 1/15 p. 31 par. 2 Highlights From the Book of Revelation—I ***
Upon his baptism in 29 C.E., Jesus became King-Designate in the line of David. However, Jesus did not receive the key of David until 33 C.E. when he was exalted to the right hand of God in heaven. There he inherited all the rights of the Davidic Kingdom. Since then, Jesus has been using the key to 
 

[ARchiv@L]

*** w06 5/1 p. 27 par. 1 Loyally Serving Christ the King ***
At Pentecost 33 C.E., after Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven, God “made him head over all things to the congregation.” (Ephesians 1:20-22; Acts 2:32-36) Christ thus began to rule but in a limited sense. His initial subjects were spirit-anointed Christians, who made up spiritual Israel, “the Israel of God.”—
*** w06 5/1 p. 27 par. 2 Loyally Serving Christ the King ***
 Almost 30 years after that Pentecost in 33 C.E., the apostle Paul confirmed that Christ had not yet taken full Kingdom power, but he was “at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” (Hebrews 10:12, 13) Then, near the end of the first century C.E., the aged apostle John foresaw in a vision the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah, installing Christ Jesus as King of the newborn heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 11:15; 12:1-5) From our vantage point in history, we can review the overwhelming evidence confirming that Christ began to rule as Messianic King in heaven in 1914.
 

[JW Insider]

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown?

That's how I understand it too. Jesus had not yet been crowned because he had not suffered death and been seated at the right hand of God.

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

(Hebrews 2:9) . . .But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

So it would be some time after suffering death, and his resurrection. When he sits at God's right hand he is at the right hand of the "throne of Majesty." He is therefore "ruling as king" with Jehovah.

(Hebrews 8:1) . . .he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

We also know this because Paul changes the word "sit at my right hand" to "rule as king." So Paul thinks of them as equivalent.

(1 Corinthians 15:25-27) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.”. . .

Also, in Hebrews it is a given that Jesus, from Judah, would be a king, after the manner of Melchizedek:

(Hebrews 7:1, 2) 7 For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.”

So now that Jesus is part of the enthronement setup at God's right hand, he is also, therefore, ruling as king.

Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians, above, that Jesus would go on conquering in the midst of his enemies up until the last enemy is conquered, we also have an image in Revelation like this:

(Revelation 6:1, 2) 6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder: “Come!” 2 And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.

This mention of his crown in Revelation 6 is given a lead-up in the entire 5th chapter, which is a bit long to quote completely, but notice the highlighted verses:

5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” . . .  5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne . . . a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, . . . . . . . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne . . . 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power . . . .”
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

If the elders fell down and worshipped the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing in the midst of the throne, then Jesus, at this point must have a position of kingship granted by Jehovah. We can find out what that time was by going back to Paul.

(Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet . . .

(Philippians 2:8-11) . . .to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Note that Philippians, here, reads like a commentary of Revelation 5. It explains why (his sacrificial death) even those in heaven now openly "bend the knee" to Jesus to the glory of God.

 

 

[ARchiv@L]

*** kr chap. 2 p. 22 par. 29 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***
29 Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year. But even they could not have imagined how accurate that prediction would turn out to be. As John’s vision revealed, Satan would then begin to have an even greater impact on human society: “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Rev. 12:12) In 1914, the first world war broke out and the sign of Christ’s presence in kingly power began to see global fulfillment. The “last days” of this system of things had begun.—
 

[JW Insider]

44 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

On 6/28/2017 at 7:22 AM, JW Insider said:

Clearly, at the latest, it was the year when Jesus died and was resurrected.

I have a couple of questions related to this if you don't mind.

1. Are you saying that the war between Michael and Satan and the casting out of Satan and his angels preceded the event referred to at Rev.12:10,  and by this reckoning took place earlier than "the year when Jesus died and was resurrected"?

2. What do you think  "the short period of time" mentioned at Rev 12:12 refers to?

For the answer to #1, just compare the scripture with all other scriptures that touch on this same subject:

(Revelation 12:7-12) 7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Satan is cast out in verse 9 and "now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom" is said to have happened in verse 10. So that would be the natural order if they are separated by time. But if there is set of events that covers both at once, then that is quite possible, too. In that case we don't have to worry too much about the time. (And we wouldn't have to defend the idea that the Watchtower appears to get it backwards, here, saying that Jesus is crowned as king, and then the first order of business is to battle with Satan.)

I think a good answer is found here:

(John 12:29-33) . . .” 30 Jesus answered: “This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.” 33 This he was really saying to indicate what sort of death he was about to die.

Jesus' rise is Satan's fall, here. The ruler of the world, the Devil, was battled and finally conquered and defeated through the ministry and death of Jesus, who was "made to be sin for us" and who opened the way for sons of light to overpower the darkness. And Satan's anger is evident by the fact that we must endure difficulties as Christian ministers, and we must conquer.

(John 12:35, 36) . . .“The light will be among you a little while longer. Walk while you still have the light, so that darkness does not overpower you; whoever walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, exercise faith in the light, so that you may become sons of light.”. . .

(2 Corinthians 5:21-7:1) 21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness. . . . 2 For he says: “In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.” Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation. . . .4 but in every way we recommend ourselves as God’s ministers, by the endurance of much, by tribulations, by times of need, by difficulties, 5 by beatings, by imprisonments, by riots, by hard work, by sleepless nights, by times without food; . . . as dying and yet look! we live, as punished and yet not handed over to death, . . . For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? . . . 7 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The idea of Satan being cast out of heaven is an expression meaning he is cast down, loses his power over those he wishes to ensnare. And this is why Revelation relates it to the announcement of salvation. It's the same topic Hebrews speaks about here:

(Hebrews 2:14, 15) . . .that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

Satan is still the "ruler" of the world, and is therefore still, in effect, in the "heavenly places." That has been just as true since 1914 as it was since 33. But he has been brought to nothing for those who conquer, those who find salvation in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 5:8-10) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world. 10 But after you have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called you to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish your training.. . .

This was just as true in the first century as in the twentieth and today. Nothing notable in this regard changed in 1914.

(1 John 3:8) 8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

Notice that it had already happened, and when the first glimpse of the Devil's works being broken up were seen, Jesus could say:

(Luke 10:18-20) . . .“I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are made subject to you, but rejoice because your names have been written in the heavens.”

As far as the short period of time goes. This has been true for all of us ever since the last days began. (Hebrews 1:1,2) We have a relatively short lifespan, and it is reserved for all men to die. And in the overall scheme of Satan's lifetime, who may have lived for billions of years, he must know his fate is sealed and his time is short. None of us (since the warning in 33 C.E.) have known just when the entire system would be cut short for the "second time that he [Christ] appears." But in either case whether death or through his appearance, it is a short time before each of us receives a judgment.

(Hebrews 9:26-28) . . .But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.

 

Obviously, this is not the ONLY way to look at these things. But you asked what I thought.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I have not been keeping count ... but continue on ... it's not even CLOSE to a million words yet about how many angels can dance on the head of a sewing pin.

If you keep asking the wrong questions ... all you will ever get is wrong answers.

This is normal.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

And that’s why there is a BIG difference when one speculates between Jesus as King in 33ce, think literally as the people wanted, spiritual kingdom, as a work in progress, 1914 enthronement as a literal spiritual king in a heavenly (spiritual) kingdom

For 33 CE we don't have to speculate. For 1914 we do have to speculate.

The way you have explained it would mean that Jesus was not a literal king to Paul, but only a spiritual king, a work in progress. Yet, you say he was a literal king to Charles T Russell, and Joseph F Rutherford. Yet, every explanation in the Watchtower publications you quoted shows that Jesus' primary activity since 1914 has been the building up of a congregation since about 1919. But isn't that what Jesus was doing in 33 CE? The same Watchtower admits that Jesus began ruling as king over the congregation in 33 CE. Of course, everyone should agree that he was ruler over the congregation, too, but that doesn't account for why Paul would also say he had just been given a position of power and authority over every king on the earth, and even every power and authority in heaven.

You will also notice that no one will even touch the fact that Jesus is called King of Kings by Paul in Timothy.

This is the real problem with all this speculation that Jesus didn't become king until 1914. It requires that we ignore clear scriptures.

Just to give an example of what I mean, watch what will happen if I ask the following questions:

• Why did Paul call Jesus "the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords" in 1 Timothy 6:15?
• Why did John call Jesus “the Ruler of the kings of the earth” in Revelation 1:5?
• Why did Luke not make a correction about a supposed false allegation when Jews had Christians dragged in front of rulers to say: "All these men act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus." in Acts 17:7?

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

There is probably a better way to answer this question. Jesus is called "King" about 500 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Each time Jesus was referred to as "Christ, he was being called "The Messiah." The Messiah was a King. This is why Psalm 110:1 was so important to Christians, because the question to ask was, why would a King [David] call this person "Lord." It was because that particular "Lord" was to be seated on a throne at God's right hand. If David was a king then surely this particular "Lord" would be an even higher king.

What did Messiah (Christ) mean to the early Christians? We know by looking at the Bible verses that were considered Messianic:

(Isaiah 9:6, 7) . . .For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.  7 To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end, On the throne of David and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it Through justice and righteousness, From now on and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

This is exactly what Peter is saying when he refers to the relationship between David and Jesus Christ at Pentecost.

(Acts 2:29-36) 29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

Note that when David in the role of prophet said that his Lord would be seated at God's right hand until all enemies were defeated, he was referring to the resurrection of Christ to David's throne. The logic of this passage should not escape anyone. It says that when David spoke of "the lord of a king" being seated on David's throne, he was prophesying about the resurrection of the Messiah. Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God has made Jesus this Lord and Messiah. Messiah is the final Davidic King, and he has now been made that King. The word King is already bound up in the word "Messiah."

This was probably more obvious to the original Jewish Christians as the Bible writers of the gospels indicate:

• (Matthew 2:2-6) . . . saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when we were in the East, and we have come to do obeisance to him.” 3 At hearing this, King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 On gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They said to him: “In Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa, . . .  for out of you will come a governing one, who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
• (Mark 15:32) 32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down off the torture stake, so that we may see and believe.” . . .
• (Luke 1:31-33) . . .. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”
• (Luke 1:67-71) . . .: 68 “Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance. 69 And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant, 70 just as he has spoken through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, 71 of a salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those hating us;
• (Luke 2:11) 11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord.
• (Luke 19:36-38) 36 As he moved along, they were spreading their outer garments on the road. 37 As soon as he got near the road down the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and to praise God with a loud voice because of all the powerful works they had seen, 38 saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s name!. . .
• (Luke 23:35) . . .“Others he saved; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One.. . .
• (John 1:41-49) 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him: “We have found the Mes·siʹah” (which means, when translated, “Christ”), . . . 45 Philip found Na·thanʹa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote: Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazʹa·reth.” . . . 49 Na·thanʹa·el responded: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”
• (John 19:21, 22) . . .However, the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate: “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that he said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’” 22 Pilate answered: “What I have written, I have written.”
• (Acts 13:16-47) 16 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand, he said: “Men, Israelites and you others who fear God, listen. 17 The God of this people Israel chose our forefathers, . . . 21 But afterward they demanded a king, and God gave them Saul . . . After removing him, he raised up for them David as king, . . . 23 According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus. . . . 27 For the inhabitants of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize this one, but . . .  they demanded of Pilate to have him executed. . . . 30 But God raised him up from the dead, . . .  32 “So we are declaring to you the good news about the promise made to the forefathers. 33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’

And although it should not have been necessary, because it is already implied, notice the fuller context of what was written in the second psalm:

• (Psalm 2:6, 7)  6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.

(In fact it was an expression about kingship, also used of David and Solomon.)

The point is that the Bible does not make a big difference about whether we technically call Jesus only a "crown-prince" while he is "king-designate." Those details are not important even if technically true. In effect, he was "born" King of the Jews. He could be declared King by anyone who recognized him as King, even if this was before the complete fulfillment. It was for that purpose that he came into the world. Because Jehovah's purpose is as good as accomplished from the founding of the world, it doesn't matter that Jesus is called King prior to his being raised up and put at the right hand of the throne of Majesty. Technically he was not the Messiah either until his anointing in 29 C.E. yet Simeon says this:

(Luke 2:25, 26) . . .a man in Jerusalem named Simʹe·on, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for Israel’s consolation, and holy spirit was upon him. 26 Furthermore, it had been divinely revealed to him by the holy spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Christ of Jehovah.

The connection between the word Messiah (Christ) and a King was also quite strong in the Jewish literature that was written between the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek Scriptures. I won't quote them here, but it adds to the background of the word as understood by the writers and readers of the Greek Scriptures.