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ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view


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*** kr chap. 2 p. 15 par. 10 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***

As its full title suggested, the journal Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence was deeply concerned with prophecies pertaining to Christ’s presence. The faithful anointed writers who contributed to that journal saw that Daniel’s prophecy regarding the “seven times” had a bearing on the timing of the fulfillment of God’s purposes regarding the Messianic Kingdom. As early as the 1870’s, they pointed to 1914 as the year when those seven times would end. (Dan. 4:25; Luke 21:24) Although our brothers of that era did not yet grasp the full significance of that marked year, they proclaimed what they knew far and wide, with long-lasting effects.

 


*** kr chap. 2 p. 28 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***

1876

An article by C. T. Russell, published in the Bible Examiner, points to 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times

 


*** kr chap. 5 p. 50 pars. 5-6 The King Shines Light on the Kingdom ***

As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

 Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.—Jas. 4:6.

 

 


 

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Even before C.T.Russell was born, commentaries on Bible prophecy included  dozens of potential dates. Nearly 200 years ago, a couple of them even included 1914 as potentially significant time period.

WAITING… AND FIGHTING ARchiv@L, I appreciate your advice. Very laconic, but appropriate. Only to develop a little further my attitude, let me mention David example in, perhaps, the most difficult pa

(Luke 12:47, 48) . . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did t

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 Some apostates of Christendom say Jesus became King in 33 C.E. [or sometime in the first century]  Yet in 33 C.E. the Apostles asked Jesus "WHEN" are you restoring the Kingdom. So obviously that teaching of Christendom is wrong as is the Trinity, Hellfire and Immortal Soul. Acts 1:6. And this was "after" he was given all authority. But obviously not Kingdom authority because that came much later in 1914.  

  In 33 C.E., Jesus made it clearly known that the corulers who would assist the King of God’s Kingdom would be taken from the earth and raised to life as spirit creatures in heaven. His disciples, though, did not immediately understand this revelation. (Dan. 7:18; John 14:2-5) In that same year, Jesus indicated by means of illustrations that the Kingdom would not be established until a LONG TIME AFTER he ascended to heaven. (Matt. 25:14, 19; Luke 19:11, 12) The disciples did not comprehend this vital point and later asked the resurrected Jesus: “Are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at THIS TIME?” Jesus, however, chose not to reveal any more details AT THAT time. (Acts 1:6, 7).

“Respecting the PRESENCE of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal MESSAGE {internet blog} or through a letter as though FROM US, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one [including bloggers] seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the APOSTASY COMES FIRST and the man of lawlessness gets revealed.”—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

{So the "presence" is long after the First Century as the apostasy would be revealed first and of course Jesus' illustrations regarding that Kingdom. And notice the apostasy is related to the presence of Jesus as they [the apostates] would say he came at THAT time and not a later time} 

{"FROM US" at 2 Thess. 2:1-3 - obviously INTERPRETATIVE AUTHORITY came from JEHOVAH'S ORGANIZATION not from individual bloggers who think they have insider interpretative authority.} xD

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53 minutes ago, ARchiv@L said:

the JW inside must be too, with all these notes, making for all of us ! I say thanks, for all the good research.

:)

 

 

I fully agree! I share the feelings of many if I say that JWInsider  has helped us to think a lot deeper. And his  commentaries reveal a lot of knowledge! Thanks JWI for sharing

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1 hour ago, ARchiv@L said:

 

Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.—Jas. 4:6.

 

I specially agree with the sentence: “…faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.” But we are still anchored to this doctrine -1914 date- for more than a century. Does it show humility?

Could you show scriptural proof that thing as the Gentile Times has something to do with Daniel 4? Reread please my bullet points about “violates the five fingers”.

I feel gratitude toward Jehovah because He has blessed Russell and others to discover the basic foundational, core teachings that are the framework of our doctrines.

But, regarding dates and prophecies… no one become accurate. Remember, by decades they thought the pyramid was a channel from God!

Now, some one could say: “still remains 1914 no matter they were wrong in all its meaning”.

But to base ALL our eschatology in a date not only is risky, but contrary the scriptures.

Think for a moment. Do you really need this date at all to serve Jehovah with all your soul? Did Abraham need a date? No. Perhaps first Christians? Neither. Why you and me?

I really needed a date when I was young. But this date made me quite fanatic. I used to preach “the end is at hand.” I used to focus on earthquakes and wars. What lack of appealing had my preaching work!

Now here I am. Still preaching with all my soul. I’m not focusing in past dates as the beginning of the Kingdom. I’m eagerly expecting the future “adventum” of this kingdom. My ministry, sure as yours, is more attractive, more focused in kingdom blessings or the beauty of Bible.

I sincerely believe that, sooner or later, at Jehovah due time, this 1914 doctrine will disappear. The later the worse.

By the way. I must admit that I’ve had the privilege to meet a lot of humble brothers. The troops (I can’t find the English word for normal no privileged persons). As it rises in our organization, I’ve had more difficulties finding this humility. Perhaps that would explain that some cherished doctrines are so difficult to remove.

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3 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

1914. It’s a date. The Christians didn’t utilize dates as a foundation of their faith

*** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers ***

Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding.

In reality, we all know no Jesus nor Paul in writing to the Hebrews made use of the dates in the 70 weeks prophecy to proof that Jesus was the Messiah. Why should we different regarding 1914?

I enjoyed your exposition of the all these issues related to 1914, Revelation, and the kingship of Jesus, especially the areas that differed from the view I have been holding. I'll get to those issues shortly, but I wanted to say how important is this particular point you just made. It may also provide a starting place to help explain why the view I hold is a bit confusing.

First, it shows that Christians in the first century had NOT come to our present understanding of the 70 weeks. This would seem, at first, to contradict the verses just previously quoted:

(1 Peter 1:10-12) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.

The idea I get from this is that many were "making a diligent inquiry" and realized that when it came to chronology ("the particular time or season") there was no way they would have figured it out. Not even an angel could have figured it out. And THAT must even include the time when the Messiah would suffer. And yet the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah, as expanded by Daniel into 70 "sevens of" years was the most famous of the time prophecies about when the Messiah should suffer.

(Daniel 9:25, 26) 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.. . .

As an aside, it would have been just as accurate to translate this as "Messiah the Ruler" rather than "Messiah the Leader." The NLT says: "Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One —comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times." or NIV: "“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

But back to the point. I think that after Jesus was manifested in the world at the last days, that Christians are now in a time period when time and dates are meaningless. As 1 Peter says, it was nothing that anyone could really figure out ahead of time, not even angels. All they could do was wait. Jesus arrival marked the "Last Days" according to Hebrews 1:1,2:

1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days [Now, in these last days] he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

From that point in time, we are all in the same situation until:

(Hebrews 1:6-2:1) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” . . . 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation . . .  13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? . . .2 That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things we have heard, so that we never drift away.

I don't think I need to repeat that Hebrews 1 uses royal imagery both here and in verses I skipped. It mentions ministers doing obeisance to him just as a king has. It mentions a throne. It mentions a scepter, it mentions a Kingdom, it mentions being anointed with oil, it mentions sitting on a throne while God places all enemies at his feet. The context also mentions garments, and mentions a crown. These are all "kingly" and "royal" concepts that should make us pay attention and never drift away.

So it doesn't matter that there may be more to his ongoing kingship, and more occasions where one could say "Jehovah has become King" or "Jesus has become King." The point is that time and chronology are no longer important to the equation. If they do become important then we are probably missing something in our Christianity and faith. We know he came, we know he will come again. We also know that he is present with us all the days until the end of the system. (Matthew 28:20) Jesus mentioned that presence starting back in 33 and said it would continue until the synteleia. (Technically, if the Watchtower were correct about the synteleia, or conclusion, then Jesus presence would STOP in 1914. Fortunately, the conclusion of the system of things is a future event, not something that started in 1914.)

Another way to look at the same point is to notice how Jesus transitioned from the sign seen upon Jerusalem to the imagery of the "second coming." Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

That's a bit hard to square with our current view of time. It's a better fit for what Peter and Psalms says about 1,000 years being the same as a day with Jehovah.

But this is also why I see Revelation speaking of things that were to be considered "as good as if they had been completely fulfilled" during the time they were first read by Christians. All the things happening to them, both good and bad, were evidences that the end of all things was already upon them (1 Pet 4:7). That NOW was the day of salvation. At any moment "immediately" Christ could be seen coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Only if they believed strongly that he was currently the king, with all the authority and power, above all other kings and authorities in heaven and on earth, could that faith be strong enough to carry them through great tribulations and even unto death.

So, the reason I make application to the first century, even of items in Revelation chapters 6 through 12, especially, is because physical, human times and dates were not important. The power of Jehovah and his Christ were powers that moved beyond time. They each could be referred to with names like: the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the One who was, who is, and who is coming.

From a more technical point of view, I would say that it's much easier to explain several of these parts of Revelation as occurring closer to the final manifestation of Jesus. I agree that all these events in the first century continue on to a greater fulfillment when the Kingdom accomplishes the purpose of His will.

(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Another aside that some might find interesting is that we have often said that Jesus must sit and wait at God's right hand until God has made his enemies a stool for his feet, based on:

(Hebrews 10:12, 13) . . .But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

This would be another damaging element to the 1914 doctrine, because Jesus would have to continue waiting until the last enemy death is brought to nothing according to 1 Cor 15:26. Therefore Jesus is still patiently waiting at God's right hand, and nearly the entire basis for explaining why Jesus didn't become king until 1914 comes crumbling.

 

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On 6/30/2017 at 7:02 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

And, at the same time, why could not be possible to expect a new crowning ceremony in the future, in the Revelation time?

I find it possible, unlike JWInsider opinion, because I think he (JWI) has mentioned the riding of the horsemen of Revelation 6 starts with the resurrection of Christ in 33, and the wars, pests and famine are the habitual conditions from then. But this is hard to me to believe. Why?

Because the “second” coronation (Rev.6) is marked with victories, conquers (Rev.6:2). But what happened from the end of first century until recent times? The apostasy, the dark ages… the contrary to victory.

I’ve already presented my view, error prone obviously, that the colored horses could mean victories of the King against enemies, not society conditions.

There is an excellent (and famous) precedent for this idea in the Bible (future "crowing" ceremony, whether or not Jesus is already, technically, king). When a milestone event occurred, such as the moving of the "Ark of the covenant" into Jerusalem, David wrote a psalm that said "Jehovah has become King." Obviously Jehovah was already King. This may also be related to the explanation for why Jesus both hands back the Kingdom to his God and Father, and yet reigns forever in that everlasting Kingdom in fulfillment of the covenant to David.

What I was thinking about with Revelation 6 and the representative horses is that as soon as Jesus began reigning in the midst of his enemies, he also began conquering in the midst of his enemies. He was not passively waiting until some late 19th century or early 20th century world event, but rides through the entire history of Christianity and continues to conquer right up until the last enemies Death & Hades (Grave) are themselves thrown into total destruction (Lake of Fire). Riding alongside the other horses is, to me, a way of saying that, in spite of the long reign of death through various means, Jesus is also conquering for us. We may die, or be killed, even starve, yet can be comforted that we also conquer through Christ Jesus.

I still believe, as you do, that the more joyous fulfillment is future. But I also see a fulfillment now that acknowledges what Paul said in 1 Cor 15, that Jesus is NOW both ruling and conquering. 

Also, although we can look at world history and see dark ages, destruction, apostasy, false doctrine, etc., we may be looking at the situation the way Elijah looked at the situation in Israel, thinking he was the only one who was still faithful, yet he needed to be corrected:

(Romans 11:1-6) 11 I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness.

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If you keep asking the wrong questions ... all you will ever get is wrong answers.

We keep our wrong notes, so that when/if any new “light/understanding” comes, we can come back to this title/topic and read them again.
I am sure if there will be a new understanding, EVERYONE will be talking about it, even those who do NOT LIKE that. The fact is, those who do not like the new light or new understanding, they ALWAYS SPEAK AFTER the Jw’s make that kind of announcement!!  -- I had never seen someone to make any comment of any new “understanding” BEFORE Jw’s explain something!
 

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22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a couple of questions related to this if you don't mind.

This is my question (re. questions) quoted by you.

What a volume of response generated by this!!

Cuttting through all the information and comments,  it appears that in response to my question 1(essentially) When did the war  between Michael and Satan take place? ,  you present the view that, rather than a chronologically defined event, this war takes place during the life of the individual Christian. First, for Jesus, and his successful mission completion signified the Devil's defeat in his case. Then, for the individual Christian, from when they renounce Satan's influence, successfully endure, and untl they complete a faithful life course.

For my question 2, When is the short period of time?. You are saying that this is the short period of time of life we as imperfect humans individually enjoy, from the time when we became beleivers, until the time of our death, faithfull or otherwise. Particularly as related  to Satan's life, this is relatively a short period of opportunity he has in which to attempt to corrupt us (war against us) individually.

Acknowledging your comment that "this is not the ONLY way to look at these things.", have I got this right?

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35 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Cuttting through all the information and comments,  it appears that in response to my question 1(essentially) When did the war  between Michael and Satan take place? ,  you present the view that, rather than a chronologically defined event, this war takes place during the life of the individual Christian. First, for Jesus, and his successful mission completion signified the Devil's defeat in his case. Then, for the individual Christian, from when they renounce Satan's influence, successfully endure, and untl they complete a faithful life course.

Jesus appearance on the earthly scene was the first step in the battle that brought Satan down from his lofty position. I don't know if it started at Jesus' birth, and therefore included the wrath of Herod, or if it was at Jesus baptism after which Satan made his offer of kingship over the kings of the earth to Jesus. But the great anger showed itself through persecutions and difficulties at a time when Christianity was "newborn" -- it's most vulnerable time, when it was vastly outnumbered, even by a religion already identified as the true religion, Judaism. So I think that the image of Revelation 12 mostly refers to Satan trying to keep Christianity from "getting off the ground" especially working through Judaism, which continues to be the damaging force against Christianity even into the time of Revelation (which was written evidently AFTER Jerusalem's temple was destroyed). Notice the references to Judaism and Judaizers in the 7 letters to the congregations.

Also Jesus gave a good hint of the same during his ministry:

(Matthew 12:24-30) . . .” 24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·elʹze·bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

I do not think the same battle happens again in the life of each Christian. 

The "short time" explanation sounded right.

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15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I do not think the same battle happens again in the life of each Christian. 

The "short time" explanation sounded right.

Thanks for clarifying your position. It appears that by removing the anchoring notion of 607 BCE to 1914 CE as a 2520 year, free run for the "Gentile" nations under Satan's dominion, you are then abe to "rearrange" the significance of other components of our belief, thus, as it were, changing the perception without altering the picture. A bit like those optical illusions..........

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On 6/27/2017 at 3:41 AM, JW Insider said:

Every one of these dates, whether we think it's exact, or if we think it's within 20 years, or even within 500 years, will always require secular corroboration.

Fair point.

I think I might say will often benefit from secular corroboration.  But the view I expressed is that our faith is not actually dependant on such matters. They are of interest of course. But unlike Jehovah who does not change, the opinions of secular academia do.....frequently, so they (the opinions) are not the arbiters of our faith.

Some may charge Jehovah's Witnesses with changing their opinions frequently. We certainly will adjust our conclusions when this is warranted by a clearer understanding of God's Word and it's application. But here God's Word is sought to verify the soundness of human thinking rather than human thinking determining the soundness of God's Word. Of course the good results humans experience when following Jehovah's word correcty will provide reinforcement of  faith. After all, "wisdom is proved righteous by it's works" Matt.11:19.

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