Would you like to know the truth about Hell?

[BroRando]

4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

In the appendix of that same book under "Jehovah", Mr. Beduhn states that there is no justification of inserting "Jehovah" in the New Testament. He even goes as far to state that the wt uses the J papers/letters inappropriately as support for their insertion, when the J papers are just another translation. 

I aware that there is no "J" In Hebrew or Greek.  So are you claiming there is No Jehovah, No Jesus, No Jews, No Jerusalem?  Should we remove the book of Jude from the Greek or remove the book of Job from the Hebrew??    Jesus is not in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures. Where do you think you will end up thinking this way.  Do you really think you will be rewarded??   There's no 'J' in the latin Language either.  But there is a 'J' in our language when other languages are transliterated. What are you going to do reject the english language?  

[JW Insider]

54 minutes ago, Brother Rando said:

Yes. Matthew 28:19 was adjusted by the Catholic Church as pagan doctrines were also introduced into God's Word.

Yes. I understand it's a common belief, found in many of the modern commentaries. This particular verse has been suspected of textual tampering from the earliest years of textual study and criticism. The problem is that the kind of criticism that would allow us to claim that this particular verse has been tampered with comes along with a lot of "baggage" that would ask us to pick and choose which of hundreds of other verses and passages supposedly "evolved" over the first two or even three centuries after they were first written. We become selective about which passages we believe are correct and which were added or adjusted. We might end up cherry-picking our own favorite themes and doctrines that tickle our ears, and ignore important teachings we don't like.

Textual criticism results in more accurate Bible manuscripts, and the Watch Tower Society relies heavily on textual criticism (done by others) as the apparatus behind choosing an accurate Greek text of the New Testament. But taken to an extreme, the full study of textual criticism also leads to the potential problem of accepting that nearly half the books of the New Testament were not written as eye-witness accounts in the case of the gospels, but versions of prior documents like "Q" and Mark, and that if half of Paul's letters, really are from the apostle Paul then the other half are probably not from Paul at all, they say, based on textual and content clues. They would claim to show that the writer of John could not have been the same as the writer of Revelation. The same sources that claim that Matthew 28 contains glosses would allow us to dismiss 1 and 2 Peter as books from the second century. And hundreds of other supposed "facts" that would weaken our ability to base much of anything on the Bible itself. We would all be on our own trying to determine which of the inspired utterances were really true or not.

Of course, we have no problem with the value of such studies to determine facts about the apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the pseudepigrapha, the Elephantine papyri, or the Gnostic papyri, but some things are still sacrosanct. There is value in such studies, only up to a point.

[TrueTomHarley]

Isaac Asimov called hell "the drooling dream of a sadist" and observed that punishment ought fit the crime. Do bad & get five years. Do worse, and get ten years. But the most evil judge would not torture a person forever, regardless of the crime.

[JW Insider]

39 minutes ago, Brother Rando said:

I aware that there is no "J" In Hebrew or Greek.  So are you claiming there is No Jehovah, No Jesus, No Jews, No Jerusalem?  Should we remove the book of Jude from the Greek or remove the book of Job from the Hebrew??

I'm sure Shiwiii was referring to the following, which we sometimes refer to as the "J-documents:"

*** nwtsty C4 Translations and Reference Works Supporting the Use of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” ***
Translations and Reference Works Supporting the Use of the Divine Name in the “New Testament”
Below is a partial listing of Bible translations and reference works that have used some form of the divine name in what is commonly called the New Testament.
J1
Gospel of Matthew, in Hebrew, edited by J. du Tillet, with a Latin translation by J. Mercier, Paris, 1555.
J2
Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, incorporated as a separate chapter in ʼEʹven boʹchan [“Tried Stone”], by Shem-Tob ben Isaac Ibn Shaprut, 1385. Edition: The Gospel of Matthew According to a Primitive Hebrew Text, by George Howard, Macon, Georgia, U.S.A., 1987.
J3
Gospel of Matthew and Letter to the Hebrews, in Hebrew and Latin, by Sebastian Münster, Basel, 1537 and 1557 respectively.
J4
Gospel of Matthew, in Hebrew, by J. Quinquarboreus, Paris, 1551.
J5
Liturgical Gospels, in Hebrew, by F. Petri, Antwerp, 1581.
J6
Liturgical Gospels, in German, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, by Johann Clajus, Leipzig, 1576.
J7
New Testament, in 12 languages, including Hebrew, by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599-1600.
J8
New Testament, in Hebrew, by William Robertson, London, 1661.
J9
The Four Gospels, in Hebrew and Latin, by Giovanni Battista Jona, Rome, 1668.
J10
The New Testament . . . , in Hebrew and English, by Richard Caddick, Vols. I-III, containing the Gospel of Matthew to 1 Corinthians, London, 1798-1805.
J11
New Testament, in Hebrew, by Thomas Fry and others, London, 1817.
J12
New Testament, in Hebrew, by William Greenfield, London, 1831.
J13
New Testament, in Hebrew, by A. McCaul, M. S. Alexander, J. C. Reichardt, and S. Hoga, London, 1838.
J14
New Testament, in Hebrew, by J. C. Reichardt, London, 1846.
J15
Bible books of Luke, Acts, Romans, and Hebrews, in Hebrew, by J.H.R. Biesenthal, Berlin, 1855, 1867, 1853, and 1858 respectively.
J16
New Testament, in Hebrew, by J. C. Reichardt and J.H.R. Biesenthal, London, 1866.
J17
New Testament, in Hebrew, by Franz Delitzsch, London, (1981 Edition).
J18
New Testament, in Hebrew, by Isaac Salkinson and C. D. Ginsburg, London, 1891.
J19
Gospel of John, in Hebrew, by Moshe I. Ben Maeir, Denver, Colorado, 1957.
J20
A Concordance to the Greek Testament, by W. F. Moulton and A. S. Geden, Fourth Edition, Edinburgh, 1963.
J21
The Emphatic Diaglott, (Greek-English interlinear), by Benjamin Wilson, New York, 1864, reprint by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1942.
J22
New Testament, in Hebrew, by United Bible Societies, Jerusalem, 1979.
J23
New Testament, in Hebrew, by J. Bauchet and D. Kinnereth (Arteaga), Rome, 1975.
J24
A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter, London, 1863.
J25
St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford, London, 1900.
J26
Bible book of Psalms and Gospel of Matthew 1:1–3:6, in Hebrew, by Anton Margaritha, Leipzig, 1533.
J27
Die heilige Schrift des neuen Testaments, by Dominik von Brentano, Third Edition, Vienna and Prague, 1796.
J28
The New Covenant Commonly Called the New Testament—Peshitta Aramaic Text With a Hebrew Translation, published by The Bible Society, Jerusalem, 1986.
J29
The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English (An American Translation of the Aramaic New Testament), by Glenn David Bauscher, published by Lulu Publishing, 2012.
J30
The Aramaic English New Testament, (Third Edition), by Andrew Gabriel Roth, United States, 2008.
J31
The Hebraic Roots Bible, (with study notes), published by Word of Truth Publications, 2012.
J32
The Holy Name Bible, revised by A. B. Traina, The Scripture Research Association, Inc., reprinted by Yahshua Promotions, 2012.
J33
The Christian’s Bible—New Testament, by George N. LeFevre, 1928, (George N. LeFevre, Strasburg, PA).
J34
The Idiomatic Translation of the New Testament, by William Graham MacDonald, 2009 electronic version.
J35
Nkand’a Nzambi i sia vo Luwawanu Luankulu Y’olu Luampa, (The Bible in Kikongo), published by United Bible Societies, Nairobi, Kenya, 2004.
J36
Bibel Barita Na Uli Hata Batak-Toba siganup ari, (Today’s Batak-Toba Version), published by Lembaga Alkitab Indonesia, Jakarta, Indonesia, 1989.
J37
Arorutiet ne Leel ne bo: Kiptaiyandennyo Jesu Kristo Yetindennyo, (New Testament in Kalenjin), Bible Society in East Africa, Nairobi, Kenya, 1968.
J38
Ekonejeu Kabesi ni Dokuj Iesu Keriso, (in Nengone), London, 1870.
J39
Jesu Keriso ve Evanelia Toaripi uri, (The Four Gospels in Toaripi), British and Foreign Bible Society, London, 1902, translated by J. H. Holmes.
J40
Öbufa Testament Öböñ ye Andinyaña nyïn Jesus Christ, (in Efik), National Bible Society of Scotland, Edinburgh, 1949.
J41
Testament Sefa an amam Samol o Rȧn Amanau Jisos Kraist: auili jonai kapas an re kris uili nanai kapas an mortlok, (in Mortlockese), American Bible Society, New York, 1905, by Robert W. Logan.
J42
Ama-Lémrane̱ Ama-Fu ma O̱-Rábbu de̱ O̱-Fū́tia-Ka-Su Yī́sua Masī́a, (Temne New Testament), British and Foreign Bible Society, London, 1868.
J43
The Gospels According to Matthew and John, (Translated out of the Greek into the language of Nguna), New Hebrides, British and Foreign Bible Society, London, 1882.
J44
The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, (Translated into the Indian language), (in Wampanoag), Printed by Samuel Green and Marmaduke Johnson, Cambridge, 1661.
J45
Matīyū: Kū Nam Navosavos ugi, (in Eromanga), Printed in London, 1869.
J46
La Bible traduite et présentée par André Chouraqui, (in French), translated by André Chouraqui, 1985.
J47
Biblia Peshitta en Español, (in Spanish), translated by Antiguos Manuscritos Arameos, Broadman and Holman Publishing Group, Nashville, TN, 2006.
J48
The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, (Translated into the Choctaw language), American Bible Society, New York, 1968 reprint.
J49
Bosakú-W’ólótsi wa Yesu Masiya boki Matayo la Malako o Kótaka, (Translated into Lomóngo by A. & L. R.), Congo Balolo Mission, Upper Congo, 1905.
J50
Nalologena wo se Yesu Kristo Kome Mataio, (The Gospel according to Matthew in the language of Tasiko, Epi, New Hebrides), British and Foreign Bible Society, London, 1892.
J51
The Restored New Testament, Willis Barnstone, published by W. W. Norton & Company, New York, NY, 2009.
J52
Messianic Jewish Shared Heritage Bible, The Messianic Jewish Family Bible Project, Destiny Image Publishers, Shippensberg, PA, 2012.
J53
The Messages of Jesus According to the Synoptists (The Discourses of Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke) by Thomas Cuming Hall, 1901.
J54
Bibel, (Nauru Bible), The Bible Society in the South Pacific, Suva, Fiji, 2005 printing.
J55
Embimbiliya Li Kola, (in Umbundu), Sociedade Bíblica em Angola, Luanda, 1963.
J56
Ka Baibala Hemolele, (Hawaiian Bible), 1948.
J57
Te Nu Tetemanti, ae ana Taeka Ara Uea ao ara Tia Kamaiu are Iesu Kristo, ae Kaetaki man Taetaen Erene, (in Kiribati), 1901.
J58
The Gospel According to S. Luke in the Tongue of Lonwolwol (Fanting), Ambrym, New Hebrides, The British and Foreign Bible Society, 1899.
J59
Intas-Etipup Mat u Iesu Kristo, Natimarid Uja, im Natimi Imyiatamaig Caija, Aneityum, New Hebrides, 1863.
J60
The Bible in Cherokee, American Bible Society, New York, 1860.
J61
Ntestamente Yipia ya Nkambo Wetu ni Mupurushi Yesu Kristu, (in Chiluva), The National Bible Society of Scotland, 1904.
J62
Injili Mar Mathayo (The Gospel According to St. Matthew in Dholuo), British and Foreign Bible Society, 1914.
[Footnote]
Also called the Christian Greek Scriptures.

 

[BroRando]

It goes against the principle set in the Mosaic law, eye for eye and tooth for tooth doesn't it?  You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’  However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you,  so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.  For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing?  And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)

[BroRando]

30 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Yes. I understand it's a common belief, found in many of the modern commentaries. This particular verse has been suspected of textual tampering from the earliest years of textual study and criticism. The problem is that the kind of criticism that would allow us to claim that this particular verse has been tampered with comes along with a lot of "baggage" that would ask us to pick and choose which of hundreds of other verses and passages supposedly "evolved" over the first two or even three centuries after they were first written. We become selective about which passages we believe are correct and which were added or adjusted. We might end up cherry-picking our own favorite themes and doctrines that tickle our ears, and ignore important teachings we don't like.

Isn't that exactly what just happened?  I was a Catholic and Catholics reject the baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, there is no events in the scriptures of a generic triad formula of three persons.  Changing the words of Christ and then inserting a pagan dogma of baptism does not promote salvation but the opposite.  

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" (Ephesians 4:5)   

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Acts 8:12 “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”

Acts 8:16 “For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 10:48 “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

Acts 19:5 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest you? arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Romans 6:3 “Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

 

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Isn't that exactly what just happened?

We don't know exactly what happened. I'm just saying you have to be careful with this kind of textual criticism, because it can ultimately turn the Scriptures into "Swiss cheese." It has a certain value, but we should always work from as many kinds of evidence as we can draw upon before stating that a conclusion is a fact.

In this case, we need to look at the circumstance of the statement, too. Also, you left out many additional scriptures that have a bearing on what baptism would mean to the first century Christians. I won't make that list here, but you or someone could create a baptism topic if you wish to discuss it further. I think that the context of some of these might shed some light on the addition of "Holy Spirit" and I think it's possible that Acts 8:12, which you quoted, is a fair "expanded" explanation of the meaning of putting all three together in Matthew 28:

(Matthew 3:1-3) . . .In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·deʹa, 2 saying: “Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” 3 This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah! Make his roads straight.’”

(Matthew 3:11) I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire.

(Acts 19:1-6) . . .There he found some disciples 2 and said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when you became believers?” They replied to him: “Why, we have never heard that there is a holy spirit.” 3 So he said: “In what, then, were you baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism in symbol of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the holy spirit came upon them,. . .

(Acts 10:36-38) 36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ—this one is Lord of all. 37 You know the subject that was talked about throughout all Ju·deʹa, starting from Galʹi·lee after the baptism that John preached: 38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power,. . .

John's baptism focused on the Kingdom of God. Jesus came to allow entrance into the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught us to pray: "Father...Let your Kingdom come!" The good news of peace through Jesus Christ was the good news of the Kingdom of God.

(Matthew 24:14) . . .And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth . . .

(Matthew 28:18, 19) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . .

With all that in mind, I now read Acts 8:12 highlighting each of the major points from the context:

(Acts 8:11-17) . . .. 12 But when they believed Philip, who was declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were getting baptized. 13 Simon himself also became a believer, and after being baptized, he continued with Philip; and he was amazed at seeing the signs and great powerful works taking place. 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Sa·marʹi·a had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them; 15 and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. 16 For it had not yet come upon any one of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they began to receive holy spirit.

Notice that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was NOT enough. Making disciples meant baptism in the holy spirit, too. And to what end? That they can now enter the Kingdom of God the Father now being ruled by his beloved Son.

(Colossians 1:13-2:12) 13 He [the Father, God] rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. . . .  22 he has now reconciled by means of that one’s fleshly body through his death, in order to present you holy and unblemished and open to no accusation before him— 23 provided, of course, that you continue in the faith, established on the foundation and steadfast, not being shifted away from the hope of that good news that you heard and that was preached in all creation under heaven. . . .25 I [Paul] became a minister of this congregation in accord with the stewardship from God that was given to me in your behalf to preach the word of God fully, . . . 27 to whom God has been pleased to make known among the nations the glorious riches of this sacred secret, which is Christ in union with you, the hope of his glory. . . .  in order to gain an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ. . . .. 12 For you were buried with him in his baptism, and by your relationship with him you were also raised up together through your faith in the powerful work of God, who raised him up from the dead.

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 minutes ago, tromboneck said:

Good Grief, Charlie Brown! How much time and research was spent on this scholarly discussion?

Lengthy it is. Nonetheless, "if I want to do what is good with my own things, what is that to you?"

It's not a reproof. Please don't take it that way. i just like that line.

[Shiwiii]

16 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Just like "hell' is a lie

Yet again, no supporting evidence to prove your claim

14 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

I aware that there is no "J" In Hebrew or Greek.  So are you claiming there is No Jehovah, No Jesus, No Jews, No Jerusalem?  Should we remove the book of Jude from the Greek or remove the book of Job from the Hebrew??    Jesus is not in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures. Where do you think you will end up thinking this way.  Do you really think you will be rewarded??   There's no 'J' in the latin Language either.  But there is a 'J' in our language when other languages are transliterated. What are you going to do reject the english language?  

Now look, you've got yourself all worked up over a side topic and NO ONE said anything about the letter j. If you reread my post it is a name for a group of papers which the wt tries to use to support YHWH being inserted into the NT. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Tom:

I just "liked" one of TTH's comments ... hardly joining any mele ....  it seems to be going along nicely ... I would like to mention that Jason BeDunn's book "Truth in Translation" is excellent and absolutely ACCURATE ... and that you can read several HUNDRED reviews of the book on Amazon.com website.

I have a copy, but it is an analysis of the PRE-2013 New World Translation, (unless he has updated it ?) which I MUCH prefer over the paraphrased "Silver Sword., which objections I have mentioned earlier.

His book was well worth the approximately $30 I paid for it.

To make a LONG story short, the "Silver Sword" 2013 version in my opinion has been goofed up to agree with the 2010 supposedly "TOP SECRET"  Elder's Handbook, which was of course available all over the Internet before all the KHs got their copies.... and reads like the Simplified Version of the Watchtower.

Sometimes that's good ... but to be "generous", I find it inaccurate, and lacking important nuance.

They made the 2013 Version agree with the "brazen conduct" reference  in the Elder's handbook, so when you looked the stuff up, it would be supported by "scripture".

They needed a "catch-all" to be able to redefine legitimate  disagreement as apostasy and rebellion to consolidate political power in the Governing Body ...

... and that is my "brazen" opinion .... a word never found in the Bible ... original text, or English translation ... or ANY English translation, until the 2013 version of the NWT.

...but carry on ... I am not the Droid you want ...

... back to the program ... already in progress ...

.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

They made the 2013 Version agree with the "brazen conduct" reference  in the Elder's handbook, so when you looked the stuff up, it would be supported by "scripture".

They needed a "catch-all" to be able to redefine legitimate  disagreement as apostasy and rebellion

Possibly that move made it hot for you, and you had to step adroitly.

Sigh...it also did away with soreheads saying Jehovah's way was 'not adjusted right' for simply saying it was 'wrong.' And no longer are 'faces' sharpened. But you can't just cater to the erudite. You must mainly reach the lowly ones who will actually do something about the Word. 

They straightened out the mess of the verb tenses. And they found a way to insert God's name a few more times. What's not to like about that?

[BroRando]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Yet again, no supporting evidence to prove your claim

Now look, you've got yourself all worked up over a side topic and NO ONE said anything about the letter j. If you reread my post it is a name for a group of papers which the wt tries to use to support YHWH being inserted into the NT. 

The Dead Sea Scrolls proof that God's Name was used in the Greek Scriptures. It was the Hebrew Tetragrammaton which I already alluded to and provided proof.  YAWH is the Latinized version of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton.   You do realize that the Name 'Jesus' is absent from both the Hebrew and Greek Languages.  If you want curse the English Language then by all means stop using the English Language.