Matthew 24. Is the INVISIBLE PAROUSIA doctrine based on less likely, special definitions of SIGN, PAROUSIA, CONCLUSION, LIGHTNING, GENERATION, and "GENTILE TIMES"?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I just want to know what "Bigly" world events happened in 1925 which outweighs 1914.... ... or any other date for that matter.  Any date which brought forth the world changing events of 1914.  Please help me out here!  You can change the date to whatever date you like with astounding reasonings and many quoted scriptures etc...... but I want to see the evidence on the ground!... and it must be really more significant than the events in and from 1914.  I am prepared to look at something I feel is really credible - otherwise you do not deserve  my attention!

EVIDENCE ON THE GROUND !!

That is the phrase I have been looking for for many years.

Thank You!

JTR

[Arauna]

Who is the slave.... to give food at proper time.  You either believe they are the appointed slave to give food at proper time or you don't.  Simple.  Your words and actions will prove what you think....One must be prepared to step back and let your opinions take second place.

As someone said earlier - if interpretation were given to everyone - we would have 8 million different interpretations wouldn't we? As each person thinks they can serve better and have more of Jehovah's Spirit to interpret what they find.  Our final test (I think) will come when the slave is attacked in a most vicious way and false information spread about them to deceive and take Witnesses away from our most basic beliefs such as not voting, neutrality etc.

I also think there is a difference  between having confidence/trust in Jehovah and his abilities to lead; and personal humility.  I think that very few people work on the teaching of Christ that we should lessen ourselves and be prepared to suffer for it as he did. Most Witnesses need to work on this.  Moses had to spend 40 years of his life with SHEEP!  Intellectual pursuit ?  Naa....  he had to learn to trust Jehovah completely.   Then only - was he ready to lead Jehovah's people in true humility of spirit.  All that fancy education in Pharaoh's palace was useless. Joseph spent 13 years in a prison.... (he really had to trust in Jehovah -  I would have given up by year 3)..... Must have been pretty nasty in there.  No human rights.... etc.

I wanted to mention that if the Sumerian chronology is out - then you start at a very rocky basis for the other dynasties which come after.... and some of them overlapped and ran simultaneously. Perfect clarity and "absolute" is not the words I would use to describe the DATES for these dynasties.... Very skeptical....

I mentioned my book to demonstrate that it is not important what we achieve in this world.....  at present I am too busy in the field in any case..... but that we sometimes have to step back and be happy with being a no-body and not achieving anything of great significance!  I have lost all ambition regarding this world and since I did that I am extremely happy!   I was raised in an extremely ambitious family and it took a long time to get rid of this trait.  Like a jack-in-the box- it jumps out sometimes and I have to push it back in.  One can even be ambitious in the truth - to stand out....... all of us should investigate ourselves to see if that spark of putting ourselves in front and grudging others a place in the sun is still part of our personality.  I do not count my value in how many people I helped get in the truth, how many studies at one time, and how many seeds I sowed.....  I just keep at the job and wait on Jehovah.... and the peace it brings is so uncluttered!

If all of us had a waiting attitude (while doing what Jehovah requires from us) most things usually sorts itself out.... and there are always adjustments in the teachings to help us stay faithful to Jehovah...... is this not after all the main goal of all of us? ..... to stay faithful?

 

 

[JW Insider]

23 hours ago, TiagoBelager said:

Zechariah 7:5 expressly relates that there were lamentations and fasts that the Jews had practiced in the 5th and 7th months of every year for 70 years. During just those 70 years, those fasts might have seemed appropriate for as long as the land had remained desolated without sacrifices offered to Jehovah in Jerusalem. But even when conditions were as they had been for 70 years, were the fasts and wailings that had occurred ritually in the 5th and 7th months for the 70 years really done by most Jews out of repentant hearts? No, and now that the 70 years desolation had ended, it should be apparent to all right-hearted inhabitants in Judea that continuation of the annual, commemorative rituals now for a grand total of “O how many years” (Zechariah 7:3; thus a total of even more than 70 times by the time of Zechariah's relaying the word of Jehovah to Jews living in Judea sometime after the 70 years exile had come to their foretold completion) had become entirely perfunctory with no basis for even a hypocritical pretext of fasting and lamentation out of sadness, this since restoration had already occurred after the 70 years exile. After all, even during the 70 years of real loss to the Jews (the loss of the temple, and loss of Jerusalem as habitation for anyone who might want to use the site for sacrifices (see Jeremiah 41:5)), the displays of ritual sadness were, for the most part, not done out of godly sadness/repentance—not so for most Jews, anyhow, but had become rituals done perfunctorily. The 5th month’s ritual of hypocrisy was commemoration of Nebuchadnezzar’s razing of the temple (see Jeremiah 52:12, 13) and the emptying of Jerusalem (Jeremiah 40:1-13); and the ritual of hypocrisy in the 7th month was commemoration of the last time for 70 years to come that any Jews might have gone back into Jerusalem for sacrifices. The site would not become available for sacrifices until the end of 70 years of exile, for nobody was in the environs of Judah for 70 years following the destruction of the city (see events recorded in Jeremiah 41ff).   It is therefore significant that the fast of every 4th month and the fast of every 10th month were not fasts in commemoration of events that had even seen 70 commemorative performances before restoration of the Jews to the land of Judah had occurred (Ezra 3:1-6). That is why Zechariah 7:5 does not mention the 4th and 10th months’ ritual fasts, for they were not commemorated for a total of the 70 times that had occurred during exactly the 70 years of exile. After 70 years of loss of sacrifices in Jerusalem, then were sacrifices resumed, right on time in the 7th month. 

You might be right but here's why it doesn't make any sense to me. AC refers to "Accepted Chronology" and WT refers to Watch Tower Chronology. In the "accepted chronology" the indignities against Jerusalem had gone on for 69 years, or even 71 years if you start from the major events from the 18-month siege lasting from 589 to the destruction in 587. In the Watch Tower's timeline, these indignities had started 90 years ago. Zechariah supports the "accepted chronology" (or vice versa) when he says that mercy had been withheld from Jerusalem for only 70 years, not 90 years as the Watchtower timeline says:

• #AC                       [<-----------------about 70 years from 587 to 518------------------->]
• #WT   [<--------------------------about 90 years from 607 to 518------------------------------>]
• ...6..6......6.........5..5......5.........5.........5.........5.........55........5.........5.5.......5
• ...1..0......0.........9..8......8.........7.........6.........5.........43........3.........2.1.......1
• ...0..7......0.........0..7......0.........0.........0.........0.........09........0.........0.8.......0

The Insight book says that Zechariah 1:7 is dated to about 519 BCE, right? That's near the end of the 2nd year of Darius.

(Zechariah 1:7) . . .On the 24th day of the 11th month, that is, the month of Sheʹbat, in the second year of Da·riʹus, the word of Jehovah came to the prophet Zech·a·riʹah . . .

(Zechariah 1:12) . . .So the angel of Jehovah said: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?”

*** it-2 p. 1226 Zechariah, Book of ***
About February 9, 519 B.C.E., the prophet Zechariah heard the words: “The whole earth is sitting still and having no disturbance.” (Zec 1:7, 11)

This would mean that the statements in Zechariah 7 were in 518 (almost 517) being now in the 4th year of Darius.

(Zechariah 7:1) . . .And in the fourth year of King Da·riʹus, the word of Jehovah came to Zech·a·riʹah on the fourth day of the ninth month, that is, the month of Chisʹlev. 2 The people of Bethʹel sent Shar·eʹzer and Reʹgem-melʹech and his men to beg for the favor of Jehovah, 3 saying to the priests of the house of Jehovah of armies and to the prophets: “Should I weep in the fifth month and abstain from food, as I have done for so many years?”  4 The word of Jehovah of armies again came to me, saying: 5 “Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, ‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years, did you really fast for me?

(Zechariah 8:19) 19 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘The fast of the fourth month, the fast of the fifth month, the fast of the seventh month, and the fast of the tenth month will be occasions for exultation and joy for the house of Judah—festivals of rejoicing. . . .

You started out saying:

"Zechariah 7:5 expressly relates that there were lamentations and fasts that the Jews had practiced in the 5th and 7th months of every year for 70 years."

This reflects what we've been taught, that these lamentations and fasts had been practiced for 70 years, and the Watchtower suggests that these reflect the period of the 70 years between 607 and 537. Therefore the fasts would likely start on that first anniversary of 607 which would be the 5th and 7th month of 606, the following year in Babylon. They could end when the new foundation was laid in the 7th month of 537. (Ezra 3:1)  This would mean that the fasting in the 7th month would likely have run from 606 to 538. A total of 68 or 69 years, i.e., about 70 years.   But clearly, the fasting was still going on at the time of Zechariah's writing, 90 years after 607; it had not stopped 20 years earlier as the Watchtower suggests.

There have been a couple of explanations for Jehovah's disapproval of these fasts. The explanation you gave is one of them. Also:

*** w96 11/15 p. 5 Does God Require Fasting? ***
Some fasts established by the Jews met with God’s disapproval right from the outset. For example, at one time the people of Judah had four annual fasts to commemorate the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:1-4, 8, 9, 22-26; Zechariah 8:19) After the Jews were released from captivity in Babylon, Jehovah said through the prophet Zechariah: “When you fasted . . . , and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?” God did not approve of these fasts because the Jews were fasting and mourning over judgments that had come from Jehovah himself. They were fasting because of the calamity that befell them, not because of their own wrongdoing that led to it. After they were restored to their homeland, it was time for them to rejoice instead of bemoaning the past.—Zechariah 7:5.

[bruceq]

On 8/8/2017 at 11:51 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

 

But, some questions arise:

• ·        Did the Christians of the first century need to think incorrectly about Romans 13 in order to resist the persecution of Nero?
• ·        When our point of view was finally rectified (I believe in 1963 or close) did the brethren under the steel curtain begin to be less faithful then?

The answer is obvious. Isn’t it?

 

    Yes it is obvious that Jesus is the head of the Congregation and we should never question what he does either in the First Century or today.

     As regards all the arguments by the poster about the parousia it is obvious that the truth is "simple" for Jesus himself defines the meaning of parousia not as a moment in time such as a judgement day but rather as the "DAYS of Noah" a period of time where people would do normal things but ignore the "signs" around them. Mt. 24

Luke 17:26 "presence...DAYS of the SON OF MAN"

   That Jesus’ pa·rou·siʹa is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah” are compared to “the presence of the Son of man” (“the days of the Son of man,” in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence” or “days” will see a similar climax. Since “the days of Noah” actually covered a period of years, there is basis for believing that the foretold “presence [or “days”] of the Son of man” would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance.
 

In regards to all your other questions you posted about Jehovah's Witnesses please hear the talk below.

  

 Do You Appreciate Jehovahs Representatives.mp3

[Arauna]

In Western countries it is easier to have your own opinion and just get on with life because you will not pose a threat to anyone else's spirituality in the congregation.  Since we have one family in the entire world we must take care not to stumble others. It is our duty to be responsible towards others and use our words only in an upbuilding way. The "idea" for the discussion is not the problem - it is the underlying attitude behind the promotion of a new idea that can become the problem

Satan started in this way - promoted a new idea..... and it just happened to be a treasonous one.  We all like to think we are intellectual and smart and we like to give ourselves the "permission" to discuss intellectually with others a subject -  but it is mainly to satisfy a selfish desire.

I happen to have lived in Africa 45 years..... I understand that elders have to be vigilant to new ideas that may be corrupting.  Education is often limited and tribal ideas still flourish..... politics and tribal issues easily influence people.  I now again heard of brothers that were reproved......because they do not "see" the implications of what they do.  I  now also work in Middle Eastern communities which is the total opposite.  To say something against Mohammad is treason and punishable by death.

We have a much more reasonable approach - to allow free thought but to be watchful for spreading of contentious ideas. 

Sadly, I have lost some friends and a family member to apostasy.....I know the signs and the pattern of behavior.   It usually starts with a 'brilliant new way of looking at a subject....... then the person becomes totally obsessive about it..... then the person tries to have others agree with them and the strange thing is - they do not stop ...... they go on and on......they cannot help themselves....there is an uncanny obsessiveness about it.........then they turn nasty against the "slave" when they are called in and reproved... and then become a rebel against authority in the organization and then some go on to extend their activities into activism to the point where they malign the "slave" and  organization.

I have seen on these pages here that the 70 years in captivity was questioned;  I have seen on these pages that a date (607 BCE) was questioned (while I gave very good reasons why it is a valid date for the beginning of the trampling by the nations);  I have seen the 1914 was questioned and the Parousia.....  I can go on and on....You see - when one does not accept the one idea - then it leads to so many other things that are not accepted and "questioned".

I have seen the "OCD"  which is so strong that a person will spend hours and hours of their life to just focus on this "one" subject and basically cannot go on with other activities  - like being an active part of the congregation and spend much time in preaching This to me is a "flag" that all is not "kosher" - I do not care how open minded and spiritual you say you are. - this is a flag  I know the spreading of new "ideas" and the compulsion which drives it.

As I said before ...... If you do not believe that Jesus is ruling invisible in heaven now and he started ruling in 1914.  What are you doing in this organization?  because you cannot be trusted to go out in field service and teach the truth in an "unhypocritical " way.   I would not trust such a one - and I am not and elder and never will be.  

So, I can only say - the new way of looking at these dates is not the problem to me - it is the obsessiveness with it - which is.  It is as though this drives the person and all his social contacts....to this point of discussion. And what better place can one find than a forum like this?

 

[TiagoBelager]

JW Insider,

I have made some corrections and clarifications in an edit of the post to which you responded. In the main, nothing of substance as might affect my uses of Zechariah 1:12 and 7:3, 5 has been made. Those verses do not stand as any hindrance to our using 539 B.C.E. as the fall of Babylon, and thus 537 B.C.E. as the year when the Jews were able to resume offering sacrifices to Jehovah in Jerusalem, thus ending a period of 70 years from when the the desolation of the land had begun in 607 B.C.E. In fact, absence in Zechariah 7:5 of mention of the fasts of the 4th and 10th months actually supports the conclusion that there really was an actual 70-years period of time that began with the absence of sacrifices, which was caused by events in the 5th and 7th months. And so it is understandable why Jehovah did not mention, in Zech. 7:5, the 4th and 10th months, and that because the memorial fasts in those months did not commemorate events that caused a real 70-years period of time during which sacrifices were not offered; the fasts of the 4th and 10th months did not fit Jehovah's rationale for why He was singling out for comment just a 70-years period of time. Jehovah's audience was only too painfully aware of what those 70 years had meant for them. Assuming that some were not merely keeping the fasts perfunctorily, but felt sadness for events that meant a 70 years absence from the land, we have Jehovah's assurance that they had the wrong kind of sadness, a sadness for their loss but not for what their sins had cost Jehovah. Whatever the motivation for the fasts -- whether for sake of just perfunctorily going along with the crowd, or whether out of self-pity, the fasts were hypocritical. They ought never to have commenced so long as they were not going to occur out of repentance, and certainly no good reason could ever obtain as motivation for why the fasts might continue, for they had been continuing now for about 18 years since restoration of Jehovah's worship in Jerusalem. Again, the verse certainly does not hinder our chronology, but actually supports the conclusion that a real 70-years absence of sacrifices had ended in 537 B.C.E., though the fasts themselves had not ended. Finally, some Jews were sensing the nation's problem with the fasts, and so they wanted Jehovah's viewpoint about whether to continue the fasts. Jehovah pointed out that the nation indeed had a problem with the fasts' continuance. Why, they had had an unrecognized problem with them even during the nation's 70-years absence from the land when they were keeping the fasts in Babylon. During those 70 years, they really were making displays of hypocritical sadness. 

Respectfully,

TiagoBelager

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, TiagoBelager said:

I have made some corrections and clarifications in an edit of the post to which you responded. In the main, nothing of substance as might affect my uses of Zechariah 1:12 and 7:3, 5 has been made. Those verses do not stand as any hindrance to our using 539 B.C.E. as the fall of Babylon, and thus 537 B.C.E. as the year when the Jews were able to resume offering sacrifices to Jehovah in Jerusalem, thus ending a period of 70 years from when the the desolation of the land had begun in 607 B.C.E. In fact, absence in Zechariah 7:5 of mention of the fasts of the 4th and 10th months actually supports the conclusion that there really was an actual 70-years period of time that began with the absence of sacrifices, which was caused by events in the 5th and 7th months. And so it is understandable why Jehovah did not mention, in Zech. 7:5, the 4th and 10th months, and that because the memorial fasts in those months did not commemorate events that caused a real 70-years period of time during which sacrifices were not offered; the fasts of the 4th and 10th months did not fit Jehovah's rationale for why He was singling out for comment just a 70-years period of time. Jehovah's audience was only too painfully aware of what those 70 years had meant for them. Assuming that some were not merely keeping the fasts perfunctorily, but felt sadness for events that meant a 70 years absence from the land, we have Jehovah's assurance that they had the wrong kind of sadness, a sadness for their loss but not for what their sins had cost Jehovah. Whatever the motivation for the fasts -- whether for sake of just perfunctorily going along with the crowd, or whether out of self-pity, the fasts were hypocritical. They ought never to have commenced so long as they were not going to occur out of repentance, and certainly no good reason could ever obtain as motivation for why the fasts might continue, for they had been continuing now for about 18 years since restoration of Jehovah's worship in Jerusalem. Again, the verse certainly does not hinder our chronology, but actually supports the conclusion that a real 70-years absence of sacrifices had ended in 537 B.C.E., though the fasts themselves had not ended. Finally, some Jews were sensing the nation's problem with the fasts, and so they wanted Jehovah's viewpoint about whether to continue the fasts. Jehovah pointed out that the nation indeed had a problem with the fasts' continuance. Why, they had had an unrecognized problem with them even during the nation's 70-years absence from the land when they were keeping the fasts in Babylon. During those 70 years, they really were making displays of hypocritical sadness. 

Read more  

Thanks. I see nothing wrong with what you've said in most of this post (right up until near the end when you claim that: "a real 70-years absence of sacrifices had ended in 537 B.C.E. ").

I also agree that 539 B,C,E, is the date for the fall of Babylon, and thus 537 is a very possible year for when the Jews were able to resume offering sacrifices. (The Watch Tower publications have also indicated that this 537 date is an assumption however, which is why there is a possibility of 538.) I also agree that the period of 70 years described in Jeremiah (70 years for Babylonian rule of the nations) ended around that same date. I also agree that the desolation of the land began around 607 (even though we cannot claim that Jerusalem was physically destroyed at that date). The desolation of Judah began at the moment that the Jews had to begin fearing the Babylonian power that began crushing nations all around them. (It's in a similar sense that Tyre was forgotten for 70 years, which, according to the Isaiah book, was due to the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy as predicted by Jeremiah.) Tyre was a powerful commercial trading and shipping center. But it could not continue to trade and make plans as it always had with the fear of Babylonian power threatening it for 70 years. The fact that only a small fraction of those years saw the complete fulfillment of the prophecy against Tyre does not mean that it was not "forgotten" for 70 years. Similarly, Judea and Jerusalem were already becoming desolated, not only by the actual sword, but even through the fear of Babylonian power. Babylon became the ruling power of the world when Assyria lost its place as that ruling power in about 609 B.C.E, therefore 607 must be very close to the actual date when Jerusalem began to tremble at Babylon, and ultimately would be desolated completely.

(Leviticus 26:27-45) 27 “‘If in spite of this you will not listen to me and you insist on walking in opposition to me, 28 I will intensify my opposition to you, and I myself will have to chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 So you will have to eat the flesh of your sons, and you will eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will annihilate your sacred high places and cut down your incense stands and pile your carcasses on the carcasses of your disgusting idols, and I will turn away from you in disgust. 31 I will give your cities to the sword and make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell the pleasing aromas of your sacrifices. 32 I myself will make the land desolate, and your enemies who are dwelling in it will stare in amazement over it. 33 And I will scatter you among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after you; and your land will be made desolate, and your cities will be devastated. 34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days it lies desolate, while you are in the land of your enemies. At that time the land will rest, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days it lies desolate it will rest, because it did not rest during your sabbaths when you were dwelling on it. 36 “‘As for those who survive, I will fill their hearts with despair in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a blowing leaf will cause them to flee, and they will flee like someone running from the sword and fall without anyone pursuing them. 37 They will stumble over one another like those running from a sword, though no one is pursuing them. You will not be able to resist your enemies. 38 You will perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies will consume you. 39 Those of you who remain will be left to rot in the lands of your enemies because of your error. Yes, they will rot away because of the errors of their fathers. 40 Then they will confess their own error and the error and unfaithfulness of their fathers and admit that they behaved unfaithfully by walking in opposition to me. 41 Then I also walked in opposition to them by bringing them into the land of their enemies. “‘Perhaps then their uncircumcised heart will be humbled, and then they will pay off their error. 42 And I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and my covenant with Isaac, and I will remember my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 While the land was abandoned by them, it was paying off its sabbaths and lying desolate without them, and they were paying for their error, because they rejected my judicial decisions and they abhorred my statutes. 44 But despite all of this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will never completely reject them nor cast them away to the point of exterminating them, which would violate my covenant with them, for I am Jehovah their God. 45 For their sakes I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of the land of Egypt under the eyes of the nations, in order to prove myself their God. I am Jehovah.’”

Leviticus puts no actual time period on the number of years of this. Russell once thought that the "seven times" mentioned here were the same as the 7 time periods in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, so that Leviticus was actually the first PRIMARY proof of the 2,520 years. When it was realized that the word "times" in Leviticus had nothing to do with time periods, the Watchtower dropped this idea. Besides, it's pretty obvious that this scattering among nations and eating of children includes the period of desolations and incursions and deportations and siege that began well before the final desolation -- including the fear that made them flee to Egypt and other nations, and the sieges that resulted in the eating of their children. (see Ezekiel.) This is a period of intensifying opposition, so that "seven times" refers to increasing, multiple times of hardships throughout all the years of Babylonian supremacy. Remember, for example, that Daniel and the 3 Hebrew youths must have been from at least one of several deportation from many years prior to the destruction:

*** Bible Citations ***
(Daniel 1:1-21) In the third year of the kingship of King Je·hoiʹa·kim of Judah, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it.

And Jeremiah 52 mentions additional deportations.

Back to these 4 fasts in the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th month. Your depiction of their association with Temple sacrifices does not seem to match up with the Insight book's identification of each of them:

*** it-1 p. 812 Fast ***
Four Annual Fasts of the Jews. The Jews established many fasts, and at one time had four annual ones, evidently to mark the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (Zec 8:19) The four annual fasts were: (1) “The fast of the fourth month” apparently commemorated the breaching of Jerusalem’s walls by the Babylonians on Tammuz 9, 607 B.C.E. (2Ki 25:2-4; Jer 52:5-7) (2) It was in the fifth Jewish month Ab that the temple was destroyed, and evidently “the fast of the fifth month” was held as a reminder of this event. (2Ki 25:8, 9; Jer 52:12, 13) (3) “The fast of the seventh month” was apparently held as a sad remembrance of Gedaliah’s death or of the complete desolation of the land following Gedaliah’s assassination when the remaining Jews, out of fear of the Babylonians, went down into Egypt. (2Ki 25:22-26) (4) “The fast of the tenth month” may have been associated with the exiled Jews already in Babylon receiving the sad news that Jerusalem had fallen (compare Eze 33:21), or it may have commemorated the commencement of Nebuchadnezzar’s successful siege against Jerusalem on the tenth day of that month, in 609 B.C.E.—2Ki 25:1; Jer 39:1; 52:4.

9 hours ago, TiagoBelager said:

Again, the verse certainly does not hinder our chronology, but actually supports the conclusion that a real 70-years absence of sacrifices had ended in 537 B.C.E., though the fasts themselves had not ended.

If you admit that the fasts had continued beyond 537 right down until 518 then it seems impossible that you can claim that "these 70 years" really meant "those 70 years". The KJV had used the term "those" which might have helped create the initial misunderstanding, but since then the NWT has corrected the NW translation to refer to the "current" 70 years, by correctly translating the expression. The actual meaning of the Hebrew is what has moved so many scholars and translators to translate similar to the NIV:

(Zechariah 7:3, NIV) “Ask all the people of the land and the priests, ‘When you fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh months for the past seventy years, was it really for me that you fasted?

Both the books of Haggai and Zechariah show that the new era without the fasting was about to start now, at this time when the foundation for the Temple was being laid, 520 to 516. It was because of this very fact that, in 518, persons from Bethel (11 miles north of Jerusalem) came down to ask if the time of fasting was now going to be over:

(Zechariah 7:2, 3) 2 The people of Bethʹel sent Shar·eʹzer and Reʹgem-melʹech and his men to beg for the favor of Jehovah, 3 saying to the priests of the house of Jehovah of armies and to the prophets: “Should I weep in the fifth month and abstain from food, as I have done for so many years?”

I know that you already realize that they really had continued to fast for just about 90 years, and you have looked for a way to handle the contradiction. And, as I'm sure you know, the Watchtower has admitted the same, that this had actually gone on for 90 years (as required by Watchtower chronology), even though the scripture says 70 years (which matches the Bible chronology and the archaeological evidence).

*** pm chap. 14 p. 235 par. 4 Fasting over God’s Executed Judgments Improper ***
4 Bethel was one of the towns that had been reestablished in the land of Israel by the Jews who returned from exile in Babylon. (Ezra 2:28; 3:1) When Sharezer and Regem-melech from there asked: “Shall I weep?” it meant every inhabitant of Bethel individually. For “O how many years” now the Bethelites had been celebrating a fast, an abstinence from food, in the fifth lunar month of each year. It was observed evidently on the tenth day of that month (Ab), in order to commemorate how on that day Nebuzaradan, the chief of Nebuchadnezzar’s bodyguard, after two days of inspection, burned down the city of Jerusalem and its temple. (Jeremiah 52:12, 13; 2 Kings 25:8, 9) But now that the faithful remnant of Jews were rebuilding the temple of Jehovah at Jerusalem and were about half through, should the Bethelites continue to hold such a fast?

Since at least 1937, the Watchtower has said that this 70 years referred to the time period "during which Jerusalem and the land of Judah lay desolate while its former inhabitants were captive in Babylon?" (w37, p.317) Under Rutherford, not surprisingly, the Watchtower also said that this group of Bethelites was a prophetic picture of the cult of the Russellite "old-timers" who  "doubtless, wore ... long beards and had a very solemn and sanctimonious air," and, in the case of those old-timers, still talked about their "hero," "a prominent servant of the Lord" who died in 1916. (Watchtower 1939, p. 302)

Oddly enough, the Awake! magazine used Zechariah, written 90 years after 607 (in 518), as evidence that the 70 years was an actual literal period of 70 years ending not in 518, but in 537:

*** g72 5/8 p. 27 When Did Babylon Desolate Jerusalem? ***
When Did Babylon Desolate Jerusalem?
SECULAR historians usually give the year 586 B.C.E. as the correct date for the desolation of Jerusalem. Why, then, do Jehovah’s Christian witnesses speak of this event as occurring in 607 B.C.E.? It is because of confidence in what the Bible says about the duration of Jerusalem’s lying desolate.
The Scriptures assign a period of seventy years to the desolation of Judah and Jerusalem. . . .
Additional evidence is provided in the book of Zechariah. We read: “When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?” (Zech. 7:5; 1:12) The way this question is framed, with reference to specific months, certainly indicates that a period of seventy literal years was involved.

Since then, of course, the NWT has corrected the translation so that it now correctly refers to "these 70 years."

[TiagoBelager]

JW Insider,

The 70 years exile ended in 537 B.C.E., but not the fasts. Only 2 of the 4 fasts were fasts commemorative of events that were directly the cause of the commencement of the 70-years absence of sacrifices in Jerusalem. Jerusalem gets the focus, just as it did when Hezekiah reigned over Judah when Sennacherib's army invaded Judah and then besieged Jerusalem (see Isaiah 37:35 -- "And I will defend this city and save it for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David"). Jerusalem was the scene of the sacrifices to Jehovah, not Lachish. Nebuchadnezzar got the "glory" of despoiling Jerusalem of its being the scene of sacrifices to Jehovah, and that effect of that victory was per force kept in effect for 70 years, this despite regime change in Babylon in 539 B.C.E. The 70-years absence of Jews from Judah was because of their having been in Babylon up to a point in time for when it had to mean 70 years before the Jews were to be back in Jerusalem, and thus free for the first time in 70 years of effects of their having been in Babylonian exile, effects that meant a 70-years absence of Jews from Judah during which they could not resume sacrifices in Jerusalem. Lay all of that to the Babylonian exile.

The angel's words in Zechariah 1:12 may fairly be explained for a meaning that earlier generations saw in his words. (See: 

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

"12. . . . 
these threescore and ten years] Comp. Jeremiah 25:11; Ezra 1:1. The meaning is: Why art Thou still angry with us, when the appointed time of our punishment, the seventy years of our captivity, has expired?" 

The angel felt that the situation facing Jerusalem was like the situation that had obtained during the 70 years of absence of Jews from Judah: there still were no sacrifices being offered in Jerusalem on a temple's altar as there had been before the commencement of the 70 years that had expired about 18 years earlier. "These 70 years" becomes his intended hyperbole, which would have been neither poignant nor hyperbolic had he said "those 70 years." 

So, we are at an impasse. I understand your comments, and you probably understand mine.

Respectfully,  

Tiago

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I have tried to follow this thread from beginning to end ... but I am 70 now, and very tired of bickering over the meaning of Nebuchadnezzar's image  toes, etc.

If I sat down and wrote out EVERYTHING that we need do to please God, and achieve salvation through Christ, I strongly suspect I could get it ALL on two pages.  Everything else would be background reading ... and WOULD NOT MATTER AT ALL.

I have been beaten up by pontificating experts for over 50 YEARS, and I in my Barbarian perceptions have been right MORE than the "pontiffs" ... by a considerable margin. 

I am sick to my very soul of having to carry around these burdensome bags of sand, and hear MILLIONS of words about Justice, and love, and MERCY ... and see NONE of it practiced ... only the machinations of policy wonks.

I quit  the best job I ever had, in the Congo, in 1974, to be home with my parents, and my brother and two sisters when Armageddon was supposed to occur in 1975. 

I did not believe it, but talks at Circuit and District Assemblies, Special Talks at the Kingdom Halls, and at Civic Centers in Virginia, and everyone I knew KNOWING that it would all be over by 1975, wore me down.  I began to reason ... "How could I be right, when EVERYONE else is proclaiming the END of this System in 1975?".

I don't care about how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin .... ANYMORE

I am going to live my life the best I know how, and let the theorists consume each other.

If I am wrong .... OF COURSE I will have to "pay the price"

If "they" are wrong .. . I STILL have to "pay the price", and they pay NO PRICE WHATSOEVER.

But.. please,  carry on ... this thread IS interesting reading .... perhaps because I am a compulsive reader.

[Anna]

3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

...... I am a compulsive reader.

But be careful you don't get worn down, because Allen Smith and several of his alter egos will find scriptures that condemn this very thing, and beat you over the head with them

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

You cannot imagine how liberating it is to watch with disinterest as a pontificate piles sticks around your ankles to burn you at the stake, and not be combustible.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, J.R. Ewing said:

It's intentionally misleading to post these dates in such a way, but if you want to simplify matters, try this:

The 1918 date is the nail you missed with a hammer. In frustration, you bang all around it repeatedly, and miss again each time. They were all 100 years ago, give or take. Who cares? Plenty of time since then to shape up.

Manifestly, we are improving. There has been only one since: 1975 - a date that never was presented as an absolute, only as a likely.

I wasn't especially put out when it came and went. JTR was. However, the 'coerced' quitting of his fancy pants job on account of a date probably did him a favor. If he carried on there with co-workers as he does here with forum participants, they would have sent him packing long ago and he would forever have to explain a black mark on his resume. 

Everyone gets one failed end-of-the-world date per lifetime. It's allowed. He should get over it. At one time, we were in excess of 'one per lifetime' rule, but now we are commendably within tolerance.