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James Thomas Rook Jr. -
bruceq -
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Don't blame JTR for this thread. This is JWI hijacking one of JTR's posts that was just moved over here. I'm only stealing the top half of this post as an explanation for the the rest of this thread. JTR only gets top billing here because his was the earliest post chosen for this new thread.

I was asked to try my hand at splitting off some of the diversionary topics from the thread called:

Perhaps you heard of it. Well, as you can tell from the image attached to the link, above, it quickly turned into thread about buzzards and elephants and Rolex watches and even took a detour down sewers and down Broadway, too. So I did a quick review of the thread and decided that it might be good to just see if I can split off only several of the side topics, so that this new thread,  becomes a place for the obvious side topics that always come up in a 1914 discussion, such as:

  • You have no right to discuss this because it's apostasy even to bring it up!
  • You must be a follower of Carl Olof Jonsson
  • You must be a follower of Raymond Franz
  • You are not being loyal and faithful to the Governing Body
  • You must have bad motives, ego issues, etc. etc.

In addition since that other thread is at least 14 pages too long, this new one will likely have a lot of free space, comparatively. So we might also just move over a few of the posts that weren't directly responding to the subject, although they might make interesting side topics, which could even be broken off of this thread someday. By diversionary topics, I don't mean they were unwelcome diversions (OK, some of them were) but some were excellent, informative posts responding to diversions, and some tied back to the original topic so well that they remained in place. Feel free to make suggestions. 

I wouldn't worry about this too much. In a few days, probably both of these threads could move to the back of the line. For anyone who worries about such things I won't move posts if I find out that it loses any reactions it had. Wouldn't want to change that. But I'm also worried about the chronological order of the posts and continuity of comments. So if it's not working out, then most things will just stay where they were.

AND NOW WE RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED POST FROM JTR:

.

.

I remember many years ago, in Mechanicsville, Virginia, an Engineering firm wanted to build  an office complex on land they had bought ... BUT ... there was a historic building on the site that by law could not be torn down without government approval .... so the Company applied to build a museum around it .... which was approved.

After the larger building was constructed around the smaller building, that changed the status FROM historical site to museum exhibit, and the Owners decided that their PERSONAL PROPERTY (no longer considered "Real Estate"), had to go ... and they demolished the smaller building, and built their necessary offices inside, on their own land.

This is EXACTLY what Jesus did (figuratively speaking) when establishing the Christian Congregation.

THE OLD BUILDING WAS "HISTORICAL",  BUT PEOPLE'S REAL NEEDS ARE MORE IMPORTANT!

When you find a dead elephant in your bath tub, a lot of analysis is not necessary ... you just fire up the Ol' chain saw .. and HANDLE IT.

Elephant in the Room  500   ..jpg

Ignoring the Elephant in Room  700 .jpg

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15 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

elephant in your bath tub, a lot of analysis is not necessary ... you just fire up the Ol' chain saw .. and HANDLE IT.

 

JTR, I'm afraid this elephant is a mammoth. Too heavy for us. We need (2 Corinthians 4:7) . . .power beyond what is normal . . .

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On 28/6/2017 at 4:17 AM, JW Insider said:

Before I read your name, Gnosis

@JW Insider Perhaps knows already what the word mean, Gnosis =Γνώσης = Knowledge
And there is also ONE QUESTION I want to ask…
If any of the “doctrines” are problematic = προβληματικά (with problems)
CAN Gnosis tell us ONE GOOD PROPHESY THAT IS NOT ? 
CAN Gnosis tell us ONE GOOD PROPHESY THAT IS GOOD FOR THE  YEAR 2017 ? (not to forget that Greece and many other countries have economic/financial problems these days!)
 

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2 hours ago, ARchiv@L said:

CAN (somebody with ‘knowledge’) tell us ONE GOOD PROPHESY THAT IS GOOD FOR THE  YEAR 2017 ? (not to forget that Greece and many other countries have economic/financial problems these days!)

It is fun to follow the discussions, but it is hard work to contribute.  I am taking it this is a serious question.

 

 (Zechariah 8:23) “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

 

Following is a story based on prophecy at Zechariah 8:23. The brother first literally held on to the skirt of his mother, who was of the anointed.

*** w12 4/15 p. 18 Seventy Years of Holding On to the Skirt of a Jew *** Life Story - Seventy Years of Holding On to the Skirt of a Jew

As told by Leonard Smith

When I was in my early teens, two Bible passages struck me. Today, over 70 years later, I can still remember the time when I grasped the meaning of Zechariah 8:23, which speaks of “ten men” taking hold of “the skirt of a man who is a Jew.” They tell the Jew: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.”

 

Select above article and read on.

 

There is no prophecy with 2017 on it, but there is no spiritual famine now. We have more than we can digest. 

 

We can have comfort in hard times from the following scriptures.

 

Jesus promised to be with us until the conclusion of the system of things

 

. (Matthew 28:18-20) Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

 

God’s love will be unfailing regardless of the problem – real or imagined, encountered before or not yet encountered.

 

 (Romans 8:38, 39) For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers 39 nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

He will help with economic problems; he will cut short the days so we can survive

 

(Habakkuk 3:17, 18) 17 Although the fig tree may not blossom, And there may be no fruit on the vines; Although the olive crop may fail, And the fields may produce no food; Although the flock may disappear from the pen, And there may be no cattle in the stalls; 18 Yet, as for me, I will exult in Jehovah; I will be joyful in the God of my salvation. . .

Relief will be on time

 (Habakkuk 2:3) For the vision is yet for its appointed time, And it is rushing toward its end, and it will not lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it! For it will without fail come true. It will not be late!

 

======

 

 (Zephaniah 3:9) For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language, So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah, To serve him shoulder to shoulder.’

 

*** w12 8/15 pp. 12-13 pars. 3-6 Carry On as Kingdom Citizens! ***

 

REQUIREMENTS FOR CITIZENSHIP

4 Learn the language. Some human governments require that those applying for citizenship speak the dominant language of the country. Even after being granted citizenship, people may strive for years to master the new language. They may quickly learn the rules of grammar but may take some time to learn to pronounce the words correctly. Similarly, God’s Kingdom requires that its citizens learn what the Bible calls the “pure language.” (Read Zephaniah 3:9.) What is that language? It is the truth about God and about his purposes as found in the Bible. We “speak” the pure language when our conduct is in accord with God’s laws and principles. Citizens of God’s Kingdom may learn basic Bible teachings quickly and get baptized. Even after their baptism, however, they must strive to “speak” the pure language better and better. In what way? Each of us needs to close the gap between what we know about Bible principles and what we practice.

5 Study history. A person desiring to become a citizen of a human government might have to learn something about that government’s history. Likewise, those desiring to be Kingdom citizens do well to learn all they can about God’s Kingdom. Consider the example set by the sons of Korah, who served in ancient Israel. They took great delight in Jerusalem and its place of worship and in recounting the city’s history. It was not the stones and mortar that impressed them most but what the city and that place of worship represented. Jerusalem was “the town of the grand King,” Jehovah, for it was the center of pure worship. It was there that Jehovah’s Law was taught. It was to the people ruled by the King of Jerusalem that Jehovah expressed his loving-kindness. (Read Psalm 48:1, 2, 9, 12, 13.) Like them, do you have a desire to study and recount the history of the earthly part of Jehovah’s organization? The more you learn about God’s organization and how Jehovah supports his people, the more real God’s Kingdom will be to you. Your desire to preach the good news of the Kingdom will naturally intensify.—Jer. 9:24; Luke 4:43.

6 Know the laws. Human governments require that their subjects learn and obey the laws of the land. It seems only reasonable, then, that Jehovah should expect us to learn and obey the laws and principles that govern all Kingdom citizens. (Isa. 2:3; John 15:10; 1 John 5:3) Human laws are often flawed and may be unfair. In contrast, “the law of Jehovah is perfect.” (Ps. 19:7) Do we delight in God’s law and read his Word each day? (Ps. 1:1, 2) The only way we can learn God’s law is to study it for ourselves. Nobody else can do this for us.

 

I am sure another contributor can think of another prophecy.

 

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14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

GP, I have to admit that I probably am not understanding all your points,

if JWInsider does not understand some points, then I can not understand them either, because of language difference. O.oShould I move myself to another more clever group or forum ? O.o

OR is there a different forum that answers such kind of questions ?? O.o

then, why not writing the questions to another more clever forum ? I think someone (who has many questions un-answered) perhaps is better to look for a more "clever" forum/group that can get fast answers !!B|

 


DO NOT LET your questions without answers. WHY WAIT so much time without answers ?? :| FIND the correct people and the correct answers !! ---

1 question :

WHY it took you SO LONG TIME to find answers ? (for those who have questions, that can not find the answers)

B|

 

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37 minutes ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

Am I to understand there are conditions in this forum that limit freedom of speech?

I speak in general, and  

(thanks to the Librarian) it is good that this kind of forum exists.

this is good that is worldwide, and many people can read our comments.

so,  let all the other people read and "judge" our comments. I am not perfect and I do not know everything.

this topic/title has gone many comments, and thanks to all for writing.

and after all, it is the future that will give proof of who and what is/comes true.

B|

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22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I was counseled quite severely on this point. I had to give each of the brothers a quilt to get rid of them.

Hahaha! sorry, guilting! That's what you get with autocorrect when you don't pay attention, a quilt! I will go and change it. The word I mean. :D

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52 minutes ago, Anna said:

This is why I find the video from the convention so curious. I listened to it again and here is the transcript

"How many times do I have to tell that @Annato put her books in the right category?" fumes @The Librarian "She should start another topic, as I have told her again and again till I am blue in the face." 

"She is getting to be like that bad @TrueTomHarley. Lord, I think he just throws in off-topic remarks to aggravate me! Here is a book he replaced upside down! Here is one dog=eared! THIS one he just left lying on the table! And, ARRRGGGHHHH, did he WRITE in this one?!"

"It's MY library and they will have to learn MY rules. When I see @Anna again, I will tell her to start a new topic on the new subject! @TrueTomHarleywill probably join her, UNLESS he sees that it is actually in the right place, and refuses just to annoy me. Nice clean, straight rows - that's all I ask. Is it too much to do for an old lady?"

 

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1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

"How many times do I have to tell that @Annato not put her books in the right category?" fumes @The Librarian "She should start another topic, as I have told her again and again till I am blue in the face." 

"She is getting to be like that bad @TrueTomHarley. Lord, I think he just throws in off-topic remarks to aggravate me! Here is a book he replaced upside down! Here is one dog=eared! THIS one he just left lying on the table! And, ARRRGGGHHHH, did he WRITE in this one?!"

"When I see @Anna again, I will tell her to start a new topic on the new subject! @TrueTomHarleywill probably join her, UNLESS he sees that it is actually in the right place, and refuses just to annoy me. Nice clean, straight rows - that's all I ask. Is it too much to do for an old lady?"

 

Actually, it did cross my mind that I should have added a clause with "sorry, a little off topic". So, does someone want to start a topic on that? I thought I pretty much covered it (said with a humble tone). Although of course someone else might have a different understanding to me.

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8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In the US/English, this was the 1977 yb p.81-83

My mistake, this is the correct reference. I got thrown by the 1979 reference which is either a mistake, or someone with the same name. My Hendry graduated from Gilead only in 1947. :)

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

my thoughts are that the GB is reminding us that they make mistakes, and that ultimately, when it comes to the crunch, if something doesn’t seem right, then the scriptures take precedent

Lending support to what you have said, one of the situations in that symposium to be endured was "humbling experiences," discussing Galatians 2:11-14. That certainly must have humbled Peter, who was among those taking the lead at the time. Still, he endured it, and continued to take the lead.

I recall thinking then that the year would likely be the end of this system. However, as it wore on and nothing happened, it provoked no crisis. I dismissed it as 'one of those things.' I'm not sure why. Nor does it necessarily speak well for me. I simply was not tripped up in this instance.

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Hebrews 1 and 2 had already dealt with his Kingship and royal power: "God is your throne." "He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." "The scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness." "But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned. . ."

Except for people with a combination of tourette's syndrome, dislexia, and one leg shorter than the other, which gives you brain-tilt .... that seems to wrap up THAT discussion.

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2 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

To the LIBRARIAN

I FIND THIS COMMENT HIGHLY OFFENSIVE FROM THIS PERSON "JAMES THOMAS ROOK JR." A DEROGATORY REMARK TO THE DISABLED AND HAS NO PART OF THE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION. I EQUALLY FIND OFFENSIVE THAT JWinsider AGREES WITH THE ASSESMENT BY PLACING A "LIKE" ON SUCH An OUTRAGEOUS COMMENT.

Gnosis:

You obviously have NO sense of humor whatsoever or you would have realized what was REALLY being said when I made my comment.

I find YOUR comments outrageously FUNNY! ....  and please be assured they are much appreciated!

James Thomas Rook, Jr.

... also known as Willey-the-half-sprung -lampshade

PS: Chill out! have a few beers ... relax ... you will be a LOT happier .. and live a LOT longer.

.

Oh ... you need to put that in context ....

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

To the LIBRARIAN

I FIND THIS COMMENT HIGHLY OFFENSIVE FROM THIS PERSON "JAMES THOMAS ROOK JR." A DEROGATORY REMARK TO THE DISABLED AND HAS NO PART OF THE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION. I EQUALLY FIND OFFENSIVE THAT JWinsider AGREES WITH THE ASSESMENT BY PLACING A "LIKE" ON SUCH An OUTRAGEOUS COMMENT.

You must be new here. Most things JTR says has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and definitely not personally. And this is how those who reacted probably took it too, just JTR black humour. 

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13 hours ago, Anna said:

Most things JTR says has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and definitely not personally. And this is how those who reacted probably took it too, just JTR black humour. 

To my own astonishment, I am coming to think of him as the house apostate, a warm and fuzzy version of what is really a very bad thing.

It is as has been previously observed: 'the internet is not the congregation.'

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:
14 hours ago, Anna said:

Most things JTR says has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and definitely not personally. And this is how those who reacted probably took it too, just JTR black humour. 

To my own astonishment, I am coming to think of him as the house apostate, a warm and fuzzy version of what is really a very bad thing.

Very simple test TTH:

You have an unbroken 100% consistent record of NOT addressing issues .. instead ... castigating people's morals, perspective, and integrity.

PLEASE, for a change .. CHALLENGE what I say about ANY subject, and prove me WRONG.

If you don't, you have with your own fingertips on the keyboard ... condemned yourself as a petulant slanderer.

.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If you don't, you have with your own fingertips on the keyboard ... condemned yourself as a petulant slanderer.

 

Did I not say you were warm and fuzzy? Nothing slanderous about that.

I am reminded, however, of the same eternal plea apostates make on any Witness board they invade:

9 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

PLEASE, for a change .. CHALLENGE what I say about ANY subject

Notwithstanding that few points they raise have not been raised, answered, the answer rejected, and the point raised again, countless times all over the internet.

One has to go to one's grave re-inventing the wheel?

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19 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did I not say you were warm and fuzzy? Nothing slanderous about that.

I am reminded, however, of the same eternal plea apostates make on any Witness board they invade:

19 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Notwithstanding that few points they raise have not been raised, answered, the answer rejected, and the point raised again, countless times all over the internet.

One has to go to one's grave re-inventing the wheel?

TTH:

I rest my case.

With SELECTIVELY QUOTING your OWN REPLY .... You, yourself have proved what you, yourself are.

.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

To my own astonishment, I am coming to think of him as the house apostate, a warm and fuzzy version of what is really a very bad thing.

 

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  JTR,  insider and some others on this blog have repeatedly  quoted from apostate books {Ray Franz} and visited and pasted from apostate sites {you can do a search right on this blog for proof}. You wish to associate with apostates since you have read and promote their teachings by QUOTING from them, that IS apostasy and makes one in fact an APOSTATE. {wt 86 3/15}.

 "and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves". Acts 20:30.

"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.

    Hello guest!
 
    Hello guest!
 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites,
    Hello guest!
 and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones".
  Rom 16:17,18. Titus 3:10,11.

    You both have stated in the past that you still go to the meetings and thus pretend to be a brother yet you find you can reveal your true self by hiding your identity in a forum. You of course would say that you love the truth, the brothers and even have a clean conscience. The Bible says apostates would do the same. {Read entire book of Jude}.  Why even Satan had concern for Jesus and quoted Scripture to him as well. That did not prove his LOYALTY  to Jehovah or those taking the lead. But true loyal Christians would not read apostate books and teachings and you both have definitely not hidden the fact that you have read and promoted the teachings of Ray Franz in this very thread! .

   Because of listening to the Devil and not rejecting his lies, the first human pair apostatized. So, then, should we listen to apostates, read their literature, or examine their Web sites on the Internet? If we love God and the truth, we will not do so. We should not allow apostates into our homes {via the Internet} or even greet them, for such actions would make us ‘sharers in their wicked works.’ (2 John 9-11) May we never succumb to the Devil’s wiles by abandoning the Christian “path of truth” to follow false teachers who seek to “introduce ruinous ideologies” and try to ‘exploit us with well-turned phrases.’—2 Peter 2:1-3, Byington. {See also W06 1/15} 

Therefore you as well as insider and your followers are not approved to give any kind of interpretation or teaching of any kind at all on any subject because by your actions against Jehovah you have confessed to be promoting apostate teachings  : "They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

  So "anything" they now post is now considered as false teaching by your own confession of promoting apostate ideas of Ray Franz and other apostate websites.

  If you believe Jesus did not become King in 1914 or unrepentant ones should not be disfellowshipped then start your own religion, I am sure the 30,000 other apostate "Christian" religions who agree with you will welcome you with open arms as some do here as well.

"Promoting" the apostate teachings of Christendom against the teaching on 1914  does not make one a loyal Witness of Jehovah, it IS apostasy !!!

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On 3/7/2017 at 4:46 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

No. However, in each of the four cases you mention, the person said what he said to the one he said it to - analagous simply to writing Bethel a letter.  He didn't discuss it at length on numerous threads on a public forum.

Yes, I see your point, but , @TrueTomHarley , It seems that it was not very confidential...

Gal 2:14 "But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news,+ I said to Ceʹphas* before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do and not as Jews do, how can you compel people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”+ "

2 Sam 12:12 "Although you acted in secret,+ I will do this in front of all Israel and in broad daylight"

 

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29 minutes ago, bruceq said:

  insider and some others on this blog...

While I have, at times, been surprised at what @JW Insiderchooses to spill, I have never (after an initial re-assessment) not regarded him as in the camp of the good guys. Some people simply like to rove about.

'Roving about publicly' is another question, for one could simply write Bethel a letter. Nonetheless, I have not had his experiences, nor have I rubbed shoulders with those he has rubbed shoulders with, so I'll leave that matter to others. Not to mention that @ComfortMyPeoplequotes 'before them all' and 'in front of all Israel,' though, here again, it is 'in front of all Israel.'

The internet is not the congregation. That is why Bethel recommends we exercise caution, if not keep our distance,  from places where you cannot know who's who. I've chosen to bypass that counsel (within limits, for I do use caution - and I do have second thoughts about it). So have you, or you would not be here.

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24 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

While I have, at times, been surprised at what @JW Insiderchooses to spill, I have never (after an initial re-assessment) not regarded him as in the camp of the good guys. Some people simply like to rove about.

'Roving about publicly' is another question, for one could simply write Bethel a letter. Nonetheless, I have not had his experiences, nor have I rubbed shoulders with those he has rubbed shoulders with, so I'll leave that matter to others.

The internet is not the congregation. That is why Bethel recommends we exercise caution, if not keep our distance,  from places where you cannot know who's who. I've chosen to bypass that counsel (within limits, for I do use caution). So have you, or you would not be here.

I have had the same experiences as insider but I do not brag about it.Or look haughty by answering people with pages and pages of junk that most just don't have the time to read anyway.  I agree none of us here are really loyal since we are here. Roving about is fine if it is ones foray but some have flagrantly been disloyal by promoting from apostate websites. I just wanted to point out to this community "that" fact as well as the fact that none of the rest of us are to blame for apostates being here except for the owners of this blog, they are allowing it  if they are even Witnesses.

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4 minutes ago, bruceq said:

the owners of this blog, if they are even Witnesses.

I think admin has made it pretty clear that he is not. He has mentioned before how he is unconcerned with our 'corporate agenda.'

@The Librarian, the old hen, is. (I think) She has sat behind me at our Hall from the day before anybody else was born, rapping me whenever I slouch, scolding everyone for the slightest misbehaviour. Brothers have thrown away their prepared funeral talk remarks about her, despairing that she will ever require that service.

Eventually, she will, and "Ding Dong, the witch is dead." will probably suffice.

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2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.

You do of course (hahaHAhaha!) realize that EVERY TIME there is "new light" on any subject ... that by definition that means you are APOSTATIZING from what you believed YESTERDAY!

That is what happens when you search for TRUTH.

.

 

 

 

Read more  

Sorry James but 

 "anything" they now post is now considered as false teaching by your own confession of promoting apostate ideas of Ray Franz and other apostate websites.

  If you believe Jesus did not become King in 1914 or unrepentant ones should not be disfellowshipped then start your own religion, I am sure the 30,000 other apostate "Christian" religions who agree with you will welcome you with open arms as some do here as well. B|

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24 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Roving about is fine if it is ones foray

I have also come to regard him, I hope not incorrectly, as a provider of accurate information, within the limits of human perception. When he writes about 'out there' topics, he does not do what apostates do: throw as much dirt out there as they can, uncritically, hoping that as much of it as possible will stick.

His sympathies lie with the home team. He does not want to send them back to the showers.

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bruceq:

I have not expressed my opinion at ALL on things that may or may not have happened 103 years ago that were invisible to every living creature possessing DNA.  

As I have said MANY times in this Arena, I only claim to be a Barbarian interested in Justice and Truth ... and I CERTAINLY do not care to "start a religion"..... and the things you have just NOW accused me of are fantasies from your own imagination.

Want to test that statement?

Please quote ANYTHING I have ever stated that is NOT TRUE.  

There are over 5 years of, and slightly less than 7,000 comments of mine you can choose from.

PICK ONE ... and challenge me.

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11 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have also come to regard him, I hope not incorrectly, as a provider of accurate information. When he writes about 'out there' topics, he does not do what apostates do: throw as much dirt out there as they can, uncritically, hoping that as much of it as possible will stick.

His sympathies lie with the home team. He does not want to send them back to the showers.

Just because Satan can be an angel of light does not disqualify his apostate attitude. Many can say and teach correct things. I also enjoyed some of what he was saying before this thread on other subjects. But when he promotes his teaching from Ray Franz {I and my father were around at that time as well and know the situation quite accurately] and contradicts Jehovah's Witnesses I am not just going to say he is with the "home team". If someone on your team tries to make the other side win [to throw the game] is he really on your team. If he had never quoted from the apostates I would not even be having this conversation. And he has not apologized or has stopped promoting that teaching now has he?

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4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have not expressed my opinion at ALL on things that may or may not have happened 103 years ago that were invisible to every living creature possessing DNA.  

As I have said MANY times in this Arena, I only claim to be a Barbarian interested in Justice and Truth ... and I CERTAINLY do not care to "start a religion"..... and the things you have just NOW accused me of are fantasies from your own imagination.

Want to test that statement?

Please quote ANYTHING I have ever stated that is NOT TRUE.  

There are over 5 years of, and slightly less than 7,000 comments of mine you can choose from.

PICK ONE ... and challenge me.

You have also quoted and shown cartoons from apostate websites as Truetom  pointed out some time ago to me. Therefore that disqualifies you according to Scripture to "prove" anything.

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The difference between you and I,  bruceq, is that you are looking for stuff to support your orthodoxy ... and I am looking for TRUTH.

I do not care WHERE it comes from.

Any time someone tells you NOT to read something, or NOT to hear something, it is a red rocket in the night sky that they are trying to limit your powers of reason and MAKE YOU STUPID ...

... for your own protection ...of course.

A short analogy  700  .jpg

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I don't care if you call me names:

You just proved my point. Therefore that disqualifies you according to Scripture to "prove" anything.

"They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

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Please explain how that applies to me ... with something OTHER than your irrational fantasies.

Go ahead... be a sport ... pick something ... ANYTHING I have actually said that is not a product of your ad hominum imagination.

You have somewhere around 7,000 of my actual statements to take issue with.

 

 

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   I sympathize with your confusion as apostates will often try to defend their teachings with reason, clarity and Scripture.

   Here is a perfect example: There was once an assembly of apostates, the first  Scripture they pointed to for support against Jehovah's Witnesses was Acts 8:37 NWT. Then after that they went to Acts 15:34 and finally Acts 24:7 to finally cement their argument against Jehovah's Witnesses. Yet the outcome of the meeting was plainly seen in Acts 19:32 :" "Some were, in fact, crying out one thing and others something else; for the assembly was in confusion and the majority of them did not know the reason why they had come together".  LOOK FAMILIAR HERE!

   However the true faith would "all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you,  but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought". 1 Cor. 1:10! :D

 

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2 hours ago, bruceq said:

But true loyal Christians would not read apostate books and teachings and you both have definitely not hidden the fact that you have read and promoted the teachings of Ray Franz in this very thread! .

How does one understand one's own position to be correct if they do not read and analyze the position of others to determine "truth"? 

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Thanks  "You should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you,  but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought". 1 Cor. 1:10! 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

How does one understand one's own position to be correct if they do not read and analyze the position of others to determine "truth"? 

I do not need to go into a sewer to know the truth of what is there. There is a reason the Scriptures disagree with you on this point. "Hate what is bad" does not mean you have to be bad in order to hate it.

 

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1 hour ago, bruceq said:

 I agree none of us here are really loyal since we are here.

So then don't you also fall into the category in which you put JWInsider and JTR? Or do the rules not apply to you because you bent them and did not fully break them? Jesus said if you break one of the ten, you break them all. That is if you hold to His teachings.  

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2 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

So then don't you also fall into the category in which you put JWInsider and JTR? Or do the rules not apply to you because you bent them and did not fully break them? Jesus said if you break one of the ten, you break them all. That is if you hold to His teachings.  

So you wish me to leave. Why? The category was apostasy. 

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3 minutes ago, bruceq said:

I do not need to go into a sewer to know the truth of what is there. There is a reason the Scriptures disagree with you on this point.

 

It is ignorance to not know what the other position is. You THINK you know, but actually do not because you have chosen to believe what your told instead of what you know. 

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1 minute ago, bruceq said:

So you wish me to leave. Why? The category was apostasy. 

why not at all! But as pointed out you are in the same boat. 

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2 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

It is ignorance to not know what the other position is. You THINK you know, but actually do not because you have chosen to believe what your told instead of what you know. 

Sorry but we have all seen what you have posted here is also over time on different threads and it is also apostate. Which is probably why you are trying to defend it As such you are not approved to give any interpretation or guidance to anyone. Sorry.

"They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Want to test that statement?

Please quote ANYTHING I have ever stated that is NOT TRUE.  

There are over 5 years of, and slightly less than 7,000 comments of mine you can choose from.

PICK ONE ... and challenge me.

 

 

ok

40 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I disagree ... Ronald McDonald is a fictional character

I once knew a Ronald McDonald. LOL

 

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3 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Sorry but we have all seen what you have posted here is also over time on different threads and it is also apostate. Which is probably why you are trying to defend it As such you are not approved to give any interpretation or guidance to anyone. Sorry.

"They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

That is truly funny. If everyone here is an apostate why ARE you here? You've already admitted you are not really loyal anyway. So does this make you also an apostate? You are not adhering to the orgs rules as required and thus apostatizing from their orders.  

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Perfect example thanks. Satan also said "is it really so ALL the trees" You said "If everyone here is an apostate". LOL. You know God did not say what Satan said yet you use Satan's apostate methods in questioning. 

You are not approved to give any interpretation or guidance to anyone. Sorry.

"They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

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Well since I am no longer wanted and this place is infested with apostates as my final act as terminator:

in·fes·ta·tion
ˌinfəˈstāSHən/
noun
  1. the presence of an unusually large number of apostates or animals in a place, typically so as to cause damage or disease.
    "infestation with apostates is widespread"

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 Apostates use to say the Internet would destroy Jehovah's Witnesses, well time to eat some crow:

Here is my final gift to ALL:

 Since the true religion would be preaching the "good news of the kingdom in ALL the earth"  I GOOGLED "God's Kingdom" to see who may be fulfilling that prophecy. Answer JW.ORG. Then I looked under "Last Days", "Prophecy", Armageddon" and of course "Ransom Sacrifice"? Same result!  Then after that I searched under :"God's Name", "Who go to heaven", "What happens when you die", "Why does God allow suffering" and so forth...JW.ORG came up FIRST in all these searches which is impossible because even to get on the first page of google's search is extremely unlikely given there are OVER a BILLION websites out there but to be NUMBER ONE at the top of the page on ALL of these searches?  Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20. {And I searched all these in incognito and erased all history and search terms from computer {and looked in a library computer}in case they were stored somewhere}
“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about,  and the true knowledge will become abundant.” Dan. 12:4.
 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven,  and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue  and people." Rev. 14:6
But there is much more to it than just searches.   Well there are over 30,000 religions and thousands of religious websites yet JW.ORG is first and they are a tiny religion compared to the mainstream ones. And overall the most popular religious website in Italy is JW.ORG with the Vatican being number 4! And if that is not proof enough that Jehovah's Witnesses have the one true faith,  WORLDWIDE, the most popular religious website out of 17,000 as of 2017 is now JW.ORG. And what website out of 1.2 BILLION is translated into more languages than any other as the true religion would be, in fact SIX TIMES more than Google itself? JW.ORG!!!  That fact alone shows "divine intervention" but when you take everything else into account such as all these search term results - WOW.   . What website is translated into more languages than any other and would thus identity the true religion and fulfill prophecy?  We are preaching about the Kingdom in "all the earth" {internet covers all the earth}  as the prophecy says!!! Could it be that the incredible increase in computers and internet [not just MEPS story] is by "divine intervention"?
 
Source material : 
    Hello guest!
You can search under each country on earth to see the results individually.
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
 
I showed all of this to my Bible Study last night and he is now convinced that JW have the Truth, not because of any one teaching but because we are the ONLY religion actually DOING the work that Christians are suppose to do!
 

Which is the most translated website in the world?

Well, the undisputed champion when it comes to offering multilingual translations of its content is not Apple, it is not Microsoft, Adobe, nor even the United Nations or the European Union as you might expect. It is the Jehovah’s Witnesses website  ...  Translation in over 750 languages is a massive effort. Anyone who has been involved in website internationalization will refer to the team work and resources required. Jehovah’s Witnesses approach deserves a case study on its own for they have translated meticulously towards their goal and have succeeded in providing their audiences with the  texts in the language of their choice. Other religions, even with far more reach, have not done so. ...  However, once the Internet became a popular platform for communication, it was only natural that the organization replicate their pattern of using translations to convey their message in the new medium. It is curious, though, that other religions or groups that seek to recruit believers or proselytize have not used pre-Internet material to grow their websites.

    Hello guest!

 

Interesting how they compare us to other religions in this matter. The INTERNET has just confirmed who is the UNDISPUTED CHAMPION  OR the TRUE RELIGION IS.   BTW our website is currently at 898 languages and rising higher and higher. B|

"In the final part of the daysThe mountain of the house of JehovahWill become firmly established above the top of the mountains,And it will be raised up above the hills,And to it all the nations will stream." Isa 2:2 :D

Since the TRUE religion would have to preach in ALL the earth they would by necessity have to translate more than any other religion. And in fact NOW more than anyone "period". 1 out of 1.2 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!Mat. 24:3; 28:19,20............

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bruceg:

You should appreciate that SOME people go into sewers to find out what is going on.

For about 5 years I used to design sewers, and sewage treatment plants .. and have walked in flowing sewers with turds and waste of all kinds floating past my feet.  I have broken up obstructions, and repaired walls and ceilings where roots and breaks occurred.

Unless you take a crap and pee in a bucket, and bury it in your yard you should APPRECIATE Sanitary Engineers who, as a classic example, raised the entire City of Chicago so the gravity sewers would stop making the City a place of pestilence and disease.

Sanitary Engineers have saved MORE LIVES than all the doctors of the 20th Century ... AND infinitely more than Theologians ...   BECAUSE they were willing to pop a manhole, and go down that ladder into the stinking steaming sewer below.

The same is true for those who insist on TRUTH ... no matter whose "ox gets gored".

For those that disparage people who are willing to walk in the crap, and elevate those who ignore that it is there, and TELL YOU not to look at it  ... both their sewers AND their Theology will be full of crap, and it will back up ... AND KILL THEM.

.

 

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4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

bruceg:

You should appreciate that SOME people go into sewers to find out what is going on.

For about 5 years I used to design sewers, and sewage treatment plants .. and have walked in flowing sewers with turds and waste of all kinds floating past my feet.  I have broken up obstructions, and repaired walls and ceilings where roots and breaks occurred.

Unless you take a crap and pee in a bucket, and bury it in your yard you should APPRECIATE Sanitary Engineers who, as a classic example, raised the entire City of Chicago so the gravity sewers would stop making the City a place of pestilence and disease.

Sanitary Engineers have saved MORE LIVES than all the doctors of the 20th Century ... AND infinitely more than Theologians ...   BECAUSE they were willing to pop a manhole, and go down that ladder into the stinking steaming sewer below.

The same is true for those who insist on TRUTH ... no matter whose "ox gets gored".

For those that disparage people who are willing to walk in the crap, and elevate those who ignore that it is there, and TELL YOU not to look at it  ... both their sewers AND their Theology will be full of crap, and it will back up ... AND KILL THEM.

.

 

You are not approved to give any interpretation or guidance to anyone. Sorry.

Also someone does not need to quote from an apostate to promote the teachings of Christendom - which is apostate !!!

"They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

This is not a worldly philosophy it is from God's Word !!! 

"You are no part of the world" Jn 17

I am sure some others will come along to defend the apostate ideas that go against Jehovah's Witnesses in regards to 1914. But ask yourself what religion are we suppose to go to if JW are wrong? Just figure it out by ourselves perhaps? We have 30,000 religions which one has the truth on 1914?  Or perhaps like Korah and the 250 rebels who said "they" were God's loyal people and wanted to "reform" His people. We all know what happened to them and who really Jehovah considers loyal. And that is why I am leaving since being here is not LOYAL as has been stated! {Read entire book of Numbers and Jude}.

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2 hours ago, bruceq said:

I have had the same experiences as insider but I do not brag about it.Or look haughty by answering people with pages and pages of junk that most just don't have the time to read anyway.  I agree none of us here are really loyal since we are here. Roving about is fine if it is ones foray but some have flagrantly been disloyal by promoting from apostate websites.

 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have also come to regard him, I hope not incorrectly, as a provider of accurate information, within the limits of human perception. When he writes about 'out there' topics, he does not do what apostates do: throw as much dirt out there as they can, uncritically, hoping that as much of it as possible will stick.

His sympathies lie with the home team. He does not want to send them back to the showers.

I usually avoid trying to explain myself in any detail, but with this specific confluence of comments, I'll take that risk. I've said several of these things before, but this time I'll do it without scriptures, so that no one need take it too seriously.

  • First, I believe that we all have a Christian duty to test, prove, make sure, and question. Some don't believe that, and that's just fine, too -- for them.
  • Second, as you might imagine, I am not really anonymous to everyone, after giving away enough of my history, experiences, background, family history, age, year of marriage, year of baptism, past locations, current location. So I would agree that much of this is a lot like writing a long drawn-out letter to the Society. I have already talked openly (on this subject) to a few current members of the Writing Dept, which includes two of the current GB Helpers. These are brothers I have known long enough to feel "safe." I have also put some of my questions in writing, but I do admit that these have also been effectively anonymous. I am a coward! I no longer have any direct contact with any GB members. I have talked to Brother Lett longer than any of the others, but that was in his most recent assignment before being asked to join the GB. If this is considered bragging, I don't consider it so, but it's only right that I present enough of my background, my biases, and my reasons.
  • Third, I chose this forum because the number of participants is low, especially the number who will engage in doctrinal discussions. I do not choose to have such open discussions with anyone in our congregation, or any other congregation. My wife, parents, a former Bethel roommate, a current Bethelite, and an uncle who is a circuit overseer, are the only regular exceptions. This is because if someone reacted in an immature way to something I said, or I was misquoted or misunderstood, then unnecessary problems could arise. On a forum, I can try to choose my words more carefully, edit when I go too far, etc. But more than that, a forum gives everyone deniability in the sense that no one has to accept that I'm telling the truth. Some who have studied and questioned the same issues will recognize that I am trying to tell the truth, but if someone else here does not wish to deal with the same questions then they can (and will) simply dismiss me as a crack-pot or apostate or haughty braggart. That's actually the beauty of a forum. I don't have to feel that I am presenting anything to anyone who doesn't want to hear it. A forum provides this "utility" by default, because there will always be someone with the views of bruceq, or AllenSmith, coming to the rescue to provide what they feel is a proper warning to others. Just in case that's not enough, I always try to utilize a fairly direct presentation style and a much-too-long-and-wordy style that will also provide a turn-off to those who don't want to deal with it, and will act as a kind of filter to make sure that those who wish to follow really do wish to follow.
  • Fourth, on the issue of apostate (ex-JW) websites or books. I don't go to or refer anyone to apostate websites. I don't quote from ex-JW websites. I own 5 of the books people consider to be highly apostate, but all of these books are also books that the Society also owns. Also, the 5th of these books, was recommended by Brother Harry Peloyam while on the phone to the Society to get an answer to a question I had on the Hitler/Rutherford letter. He literally recommended M. James Penton's book on Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich. I have two books by Raymond Franz, one by Carl Olof Jonsson (which I purchased in the midst of a discussion with Rolf Furuli), and two books by M. James Penton. I also bought two books by B. W. Schulz, although I have never checked to see if any of the writers/researchers are ex-JWs or apostates, yet. The Society's Writing Department, while I was there, kept at least one copy of most of the apostate books in a separate cabinet from the main libraries. After I left Bethel, I'm told by someone who has used them, that they purchased at least two copies of all these same books I just mentioned for the "apostate cabinet." In any particular topic, I have waited for someone else (e.g., Allen Smith) to begin quoting books by Raymond Franz (or, if necessary, Carl O. Jonsson) before quoting from them myself. From what I remember, there has been no quoting from apostate books or sites by anyone on this particular topic.
  • Fifth, I have already admitted that I handled research assignments for both the Art Dept while working there for 4 years, and simultaneously handled research assignments for Brother Schroeder for just about three full years at Bethel and 2 more years after leaving. This involved a lot of reading of both the older and the newer publications and even proofreading some materials that came from the Teaching Committee. It's not like I was in the Writing Department, but I was in the Bethel and Gilead libraries almost daily and sometimes even in Brooklyn and Manhattan libraries at times. This did put me in contact with many members of the Writing Dept and several became life-long friends. And, yes, I grew to dislike a couple of them, too.
  • Sixth, I'm a firm believer in transparency. I think that so many things would be much easier to understand and we would be seen as much more honest if we just stated what we know, without trying to hide anything. I think that in these days of search tools and databases that nothing remains hidden anyway. So we might as well get out in front of some of the issues that we wish would just go away. I think there is nothing wrong with showing the human side of people we have worked with, and admitting our own foibles, too. Knowing that Jehovah has worked with imperfect people and still accomplished so much is not anything to be ashamed of, just as it wasn't something that the Bible tries to hide from us when discussing various Bible characters.
  • Seventh, Anna actually noticed the very point that triggered this particular conversation. I have had similar conversations here before, but never put all the potential related items out there to deal with at the same time. In fact, I've argued against doing this in the recent past. I think that it's easier to get through items of dirty laundry, or embarrassing episodes, or problematic doctrinal proof-texts, if we deal with them one at a time. But in this case, I put out several issues related to 1914 all at once. That's because the video about 1975 that has been brought up really does refer to putting the scriptures ahead of current teachings when something doesn't seem right. In this case, what doesn't seem right (to me) is the fact that every single feature of the 1914 doctrine is "problematic" in some way from a scriptural point of view. It actually seems surmountable when we deal with just one at a time, so that wouldn't have made the point as well about what "seems" wrong.

Well, enough for now . . .

 

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1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Since the true religion would be preaching the "good news of the kingdom in ALL the earth"  I GOOGLED "God's Kingdom" to see who is fulfilling that prophecy. Answer JW.ORG. Then I looked under "Last Days", "Prophecy", Armageddon" and of course "Ransom Sacrifice"? Same result!  Then after that I searched under :"God's Name", "Who go to heaven", "What happens when you die", "Why does God allow suffering" and so forth...JW.ORG came up FIRST in all these searches which is impossible because even to get on the first page of google's search is extremely unlikely given there are OVER a BILLION websites out there but to be NUMBER ONE at the top of the page on ALL of these searches?

Hm. You do realize that Google remembers your computer's search history, your likes and interests, don't you? Therefore, if you are a frequent visitor to jw.org, Google will bias your searches toward the sites you've shown past interest in.

When I opened a Chrome incognito window and searched "the kingdom of God," my first result was a wikipedia article, my second was the gotquestions site, third was the lifehopeandtruth site, and JW.org came fourth.

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5 hours ago, bruceq said:

You have also quoted and shown cartoons from apostate websites as Truetom  pointed out some time ago to me

Actually, those sites are all jealous of him, for his collection far surpasses their own for numbers and quality. The secret is to water and fertilize them each day. Don't hold back on the cow manure.

I actually do not recall pointing it out. If I did, then it is 'silly me,' for it is a little like pointing out that bears live in the woods.

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7 hours ago, bruceq said:

by answering people with pages and pages of junk that most just don't have the time to read anyway.

Since that is the case, it probably is less of an issue than you suppose. He makes the same point himself in his ever-so-lengthy rebuttal - so lengthy that I nodded off before I got to it.

Does JWI need an apologist? He has not asked for one. Nevertheless, perhaps I am like him in a few regards. Perhaps I am more like him than he himself is.

1.) I am a good writer, if one is not fussy.

2.) I can explain Jehovah's Witnesses inside and out - at least the portions of it that interest me. Not all do, such as things that happened in Russell's time. Who cares? These days complete villains makeover their image in decades

3.) I am not good at anything else.

Therefore, if I choose to offer my 'gift,'  it is going to be writing about the faith I know so well. I can and do write about other things, but the dialogue ultimately comes around to the same thing: 'it's all screwed up because we 'need the kingdom.''

Now, if my gift is anything other than writing, I can offer it to my heart's content, and receive nothing but praise for it. But if I write about the thing that most interests me, I am subject to misinterpretation by some on my own team who think that is wrong. Of course, i could write about how we know there is no hell-fire or trinity, but that gets old and you find yourself talking to the most stubborn people on the planet. So I write about topics of the day. Alas, we have some people who misinterpret mere knowledge of political things as 'taking a side.'

Perhaps JWI has felt some of that frustration. If he has not, I have.

I have not read Franz' book, the same as I have not read ARC report material gift-wrapped for me by those who hate us. I am not opposed to reading the report itself, and I no doubt will, as such material is included in the new book. As to Franz' book, there hardly seems a point to my reading it, since everyone else sums it up for me. However, it's hard for me to find fault with him for writing it - whatever he goes on to say is another thing. He leaves Bethel as he is getting on in years. it is a 'vow of poverty' place; he does not leave with a 401K. What is he to do? Work at Mickey D's?

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I actually do not recall pointing it out. If I did, then it is 'silly me,'

Actually I think it's me that pointed it out....so silly me xD

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31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Just think, when we are all (hopefully) sitting at dinner in the new world, and someone mentions 1914, or 1975, or the overlapping generation

For whatever it is worth, when I think of it, which is not often, I imagine I will die in this system. Of course, I am 'up there,' but not absurdly up there. And when world conditions seem too outrageous, I imagine the end could come sooner. But for the most part, I don't think of it, instead preferring verses that assure us that Jehovah will pull us through perilous time.

I don't spin my lack of interest in dates into a virtue. Perhaps it indicates dullness. But it strikes me as reading a bus schedule that some try to worry out every detail. When the bus comes, it comes. If I have been behaving, I should be okay.

38 minutes ago, Anna said:

I mean JTR, flattering speech?

He's not tripping ME up with his flattering speech, let me tell you that.

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13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Please quote ANYTHING I have ever stated that is NOT TRUE.  

PICK ONE ... and challenge me.

Samuel Herd's supposed $20K Rolex. (sorry Librarian, off topic)

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But it strikes me as reading a bus schedule that some try to worry out every detail. When the bus comes, it comes. If I have been behaving, I should be okay.

I really like this.

When I used to use buses to get home at night as a teenager, there were no electronic schedule indicators. Just a printed sheet on the stop, if it had not been vandalised. It was notoriously difficult to figure out the schedule. The print was too small, the light too dim, the mind too clouded, the need to relieve nature too pressing. And the schedule always contained exceptions to scheduling for late hours and weekends in even tinier print, indicated by impossibly small asterisks and the like. And if the bus number was different for the out-of-hours service.......! It was so easy to misinterpret and a frustrating excercise. But what a relief it was when a bus actually came! On time, as far as the driver was concerned. The schedule? No longer of any real interest. Maybe I'd check on the bus to see where I had got it wrong. So easy in retrospect. The important thing? I was at the stop to get the bus when it came.

I think there's an illustration in there somewhere. I'll have to figure it out when I get time...........maybe something about the driver choosing the passengers....................Hmmm....

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13 hours ago, bruceq said:

Well since I am no longer wanted and this place is infested with apostates as my final act as terminator:

Hey @bruceq, I hope you're not ducking out here? You bring some useful information to the table when you are not engaging in an emotional exchange!

Without pointing any fingers unnecessarily at others, you are acting unwisely if you engage with ones you consider to be apostates. Not just because it's a prohibited excercise (2John 9-11). Apostates are indicted by Jehovah because they have  "disheartened the righteous one" and "have strengthened the hands of the wicked one" (Ez.13:22). Do not loose the force of Jesus illustration of the "ravenous woves" (Matt.7:15). You cannot fight them on a level playing field. They will literally have you for breakfast! You will come out dis-heartened!

And even if your judgement of some is too harsh (by my estimate), they may still not play by rules of etiquette you hold dear. You are in great danger of 'answering...according to their foolishness' (Pro.26:4), with harm to your own peace of mind.

But, despite the acknowledged dangers of an internet forum, which can indeed be a bit like playing soccer blindfolded at times, you do have some control.

There is an option to ignore users that you can turn on, to avoid those excercises known as "flaming" that you sometimes appear to get caught in.

Perhaps @Librarian could provide an instruction on how to turn this facility "on", as the recent platform migration appears to have switched it "off".

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5 hours ago, Anna said:
18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Please quote ANYTHING I have ever stated that is NOT TRUE.  

PICK ONE ... and challenge me.

Samuel Herd's supposed $20K Rolex. (sorry Librarian, off topic)

This is what I consider evidence on that ... the reflection/refraction characteristics off of the face of the "mother of pearl" dial face from the light from the back and above is quite different than that on a painted dial face.

Reflected light is partially polarized at 37 and 67 degrees  and some of the light behind him creates moire patterns on the dial face with the regular light, off of a "mother of pearl" surface which shimmers with a particular  luster because of the way the material is deposited in the shell face, in layers close to the wave lengths of visible light.

I left the picture resolution at 1600 so you can download it for a better look.

What evidence do you have to counter my conclusion, Anna?

samuel-herd  1600 .jpg

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17 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

For about 5 years I used to design sewers, and sewage treatment plants .. and have walked in flowing sewers with turds and waste of all kinds floating past my feet.  I have broken up obstructions, and repaired walls and ceilings where roots and breaks occurred.

Alright, big man! You are treading upon sacred territory. "Shit Happens" was your daily text? For five years? ONLY for five years? What a newbie!

My great grandfather was city engineer of Rochester for 3 decades. It is he who authored a fascinating tome about sewage conditions in the city. It is he who designed the city's water supply from faraway Hemlock Lake, laying infrastructure still in use today, 100 years later, though valves have been replaced.

It is he who wrote another page turner that sits proudly upon our family hearth: 'Flood Conditions of the Genesee River,' looked to as writings of Moses by those who would later design the Mt. Morris dam 50 miles upstream and finally put an end to floods that periodically ravaged the city.

It is he who, after he retired, continued to report and consult at  his City Hall office until he was 102.

'Yea, though I walk through the Valley of Turds' my rear end! For 5 years? Try 30.

And he didn't wear no Rolex watch, either.

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We have stumbled upon another way in which one might thwart the nefarious JWI. Just when he is about to shanghai the very stars from their orbits, respond to one of JTR's taunts - he offers up dozens each day - and bicker it out with him for several pages. Poor JWI will put his head in his hands and cry, despairing that he will ever complete his points. Or perhaps he will be grateful for the camouflage provided, since it is not his aim to shine in the first place.

Plus, it makes for fine comic relief.

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   Jwinsider - I wish to apologize for labeling you an apostate. Obviously I do not know you personally and after doing some research I noticed that the teachings about Christ becoming King in 33 C.E. actually may not have come "first" from apostate websites as Christendom's websites say the same thing. So its like which came first the chicken or the egg. I do not know therefore it is improper to label you an apostate. 

   However I have a yes or no "poll" question that I like to ask everyone who is reading this: Does the Governing Body have the right or authority to interpret to us any given Bible teaching [Not just 1914 but anything incl. core teachings]. Your question for the topic of this thread on "1914 problematic" is why I wish to inquire as to where everyone stands on this question of interpretation. Please try not to answer beyond a yes or no "at first" as it will delve into off topic areas. {If someone would like to start a thread on it that is fine but we obviously don't need "another" thread for a simple yes or no question. lol}.

Poll Question:

"In your opinion does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have the right and authority to interpret to us any given Bible teaching? Yes/No.

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51 minutes ago, bruceq said:

   However I have a yes or no "poll" question that I like to ask everyone who is reading this: Does the Governing Body have the right or authority to interpret to us any given Bible teaching [Not just 1914 but anything incl. core teachings]. Your question for the topic of this thread on "1914 problematic" is why I wish to inquire as to where everyone stands on this question of interpretation. Please try not to answer beyond a yes or no "at first" as it will delve into off topic areas. {If someone would like to start a thread on it that is fine}.

Poll Question:

"Does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have the right and authority to interpret to us any given Bible teaching? Yes/No.

I think the question needs to be rephrased because anyone has the right to interpret a Bible teaching, it is more a question of do you subscribe to that interpretation.  

 

Do I subscribe to the teachings of the gb? NO

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TTH:

Well, you certainly topped anything I had to say, with my measly 5 years experience ...

My last posts about ONLY Sanitary Engineerin, and was NOT about me ... it was about the fact that those who "walk through sewers"  perform a necessary and even VITAL function for all Civilization, and that I knew what I was talking about, having designed them.

Physical sewer systems, or philosophical sewer systems .... it works the same.

Otherwise.... neither your pipes nor your theology will "hold water".

As usual, in your last two posts, you picked up on the buzz words, misquoted me with vulgarity, and made a tirade based solely on your continued and sustained predilection for irrelevancy,

By the way ... designing and building and maintaining potable water systems is NOT Sanitary Engineering.

I used to design BOTH.

BOTH come under the label of "Civil Engineering"

One is a pressure system for drinking water .. the other is a gravity sewer system for crap and wastewater.

It's best to know what you are talking about so you do NOT get them mixed up.

TOPPER 01   900  .jpg

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14 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

One is a pressure system for drinking water .. the other is a gravity sewer system for crap and wastewater.

The Hemlock Lake to Rochester fresh water channel is gravity fed. Once the water reaches city reserviors, of course, it is pressurized. 

 

19 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

My last posts about ONLY Sanitary Engineering was NOT about me ... it was about the fact that those who "walk through sewers" 

I do notice, however, that I have taken you up on your constant taunt: 'challenge me on ANYTHING - PLEASE DO IT! - and see if I am not the VERY PERSONIFICATION of TRUTH' and you skulk away, tail between your legs, with a 'oh, sorry, I was talking about someone else.' 

Too scared to walk the sewers, are you? My great grandpa would have eaten you for lunch!

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9 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Just a printed sheet on the stop, if it had not been vandalised. It was notoriously difficult to figure out the schedule. The print was too small, the light too dim, the mind too clouded, the need to relieve nature too pressing. And the schedule always contained exceptions to scheduling for late hours and weekends in even tinier print, indicated by impossibly small asterisks and the like. And if the bus number was different for the out-of-hours service.......! It was so easy to misinterpret and a frustrating excercise.

"For at present we see in a hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face." 

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On 7/3/2017 at 4:09 PM, JW Insider said:

At any rate, I have enjoyed all aspects of service, an my only complaint in life right now is stiff knees, and I never get enough sleep

Try counting sheep. Writing apparently does not do the trick.

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2 hours ago, bruceq said:

Poll Question:

"Does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have the right and authority to interpret to us any given Bible teaching? Yes/No.

No! I mean no, you are never going to get only a yes/no answer from me, and I doubt from anyone else either because it's not that simple if they're honest, because a yes or no answer will only be opinion again, and we all have one right?Therefor I agree with Eoin, a new topic would be appropriate.

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I left the picture resolution at 1600 so you can download it for a better look.

You crack me up! xD

 

P.S. Warning totally off topic:

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

What evidence do you have to counter my conclusion, Anna?

That's just it! Sometimes there is no absolute proof possible (either way) because of our human limitations. I mean I could call Br. Herd out on it personally, but he could lie. However, logic tells me there is quite a number of other possibilities which are much more likely (and which have already been discussed on an appropriate thread). Actually my statement really should have included the question "was 20K of the society's money spent on Br. Herd's watch?" That's the real issue. So, my motto is, if it doesn't sound right, it probably isn't. And spending 20K of the society's money on a watch does not sound right. And so I will go with that until somebody arranges a break-in to Br. Herds closet, retrieves said watch, and after having it duly analyzed by an expert, breaks into Br. Herds room while he is sleeping, binds him hand and foot and interrogates him under a bright light with the threat of (whatever is most effective) if he doesn't tell the truth. Of course that someone would have to be you, because how can you trust somebody else to be saying the truth about the truth?

I wonder along the lines of Eoin, could there be an illustration in there somewhere?

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2 hours ago, bruceq said:

"Does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have the right and authority to interpret to us any given Bible teaching? Yes/No.

Yes, of course I'll go along with that. When I bought my ticket from Holy Bus Lines, it was their photos I saw on the terminal wall. That was never hidden from me.

I also know that they may hit a pothole or three, for the weather is abysmal and the road is uncharted.  Moreover, they do not require me to sit up straight at all times - they allow me to stretch, talk to my neighbor, and use the bathroom.

I'd be surprised if the date goes. It's been around forever and it was reaffirmed at the Regional. The herd is running another way at present, but we all know about running with the herd. Perceptions can change.

Still, if it goes, it goes. It's not why I'm here. Nobody else can explain why God permits suffering. Nobody else can explain what happens to the dead, why we die at all, and what hope for those who have. Nobody else can explain why human governments do nothing but foul the nest, so that I am not stuck with the pathetic hope that the next leader, this time for sure, will fix things. Nobody else preaches the good news of the kingdom, nor unifies those responding. Nobody else would have kept me safe from the new morality.  Perhaps my marriage would not be intact, for few teach the Bible's message of yielding to the other person. The Bible would be an unassembled jigsaw puzzle in my closet were it not for the GB spearheading the work others feel free to criticize but do not offer to do. I owe them loyalty. I will pay it.

If understandings change, you do damage control, hope for the best, and pray for Jehovah's continued goodness.  It has been that way ever since Jesus spoke about 'drinking his blood.' 

You can't change people, Bruce. They'll be what they'll be. To some extent, the more one carries on, the more fuel is added to the fire. The less fuel offered, the quicker it goes out.

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, of course I'll go along with that. When I bought my ticket from Holy Bus Lines, it was their photos I saw on the terminal wall. That was never hidden from me.

I also know that they may hit a pothole or three, for the weather is abysmal and the road is uncharted.  Moreover, they do not require me to sit up straight at all times - they allow me to stretch, talk to my neighbor, and use the bathroom.

I'd be surprised if the date goes. It's been around forever and it was reaffirmed at the Regional. The herd is running another way at present, but we all know about running with the herd. Perceptions can change.

Still, if it goes, it goes. It's not why I'm here. Nobody else can explain why God permits suffering. Nobody else can explain what happens to the dead, why we die at all, and what hope for those who have. Nobody else can explain why human governments do nothing but foul the nest, so that I am not stuck with the pathetic hope that the next leader, this time for sure, will fix things. Nobody else preaches the good news of the kingdom, nor unifies those responding. Nobody else would have kept me safe from the new morality.  Perhaps my marriage would not be intact, for few teach the Bible's message of yielding to the other person. The Bible would be an unassembled jigsaw puzzle in my closet were it not for the GB spearheading the work others feel free to criticize but do not offer to do. I owe them loyalty. I will pay it.

If understandings change, you do damage control, hope for the best, and pray for Jehovah's continued goodness.  It has been that way ever since Jesus spoke about 'drinking his blood.' 

You can't change people, Bruce. They'll be what they'll be. To some extent, the more one carries on, the more fuel is added to the fire. The less fuel offered, the quicker it goes out.

Well I wasn't going to go into a detailed explanation right here, because I was hoping for a new thread, but since you've already carried on, all I have to say is; I go along pretty much the same lines as you.  I like to go by not what they say, so much, but by the testimony and overall history and reputation of what has been achieved while these men have been in office as the FDS, (regardless of whether some believe that or not). Although inevitable blunders and embarrassments have been apparent, on the WHOLE, because of evidence, I believe the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses is definitely keeping itself morally and spiritually clean, seems to have Jehovah’s backing, and last but not least  we owe this organization (with the GB at the helm) our thanks, because without them we might still be believing that we will burn in hell, that God has three heads and no name, and that, if we are lucky, we will float off  someplace to play the harp for all eternity, after dying of lung cancer or some complication due to a dubious life style....I am sure I could think of many more but this will suffice for now...actually True Tom has already mentioned most.

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1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

How does one know even  the gender of these contributors?

The same way you determine the gender of puppies, which I have known since I was FOUR YEARS OLD.

You pick them up, turn them over, and look at the bottoms of THEIR FEET!

 

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3 hours ago, Anna said:

And so I will go with that until somebody arranges a break-in to Br. Herds closet, retrieves said watch, and after having it duly analyzed by an expert, breaks into Br. Herds room while he is sleeping, binds him hand and foot and interrogates him under a bright light with the threat of (whatever is most effective) if he doesn't tell the truth. Of course that someone would have to be you, because how can you trust somebody else to be saying the truth about the truth?

One day I was looking at my cloth roll of wax carving tools, on the table, out of their sewn sleeves in the roll (they look a LOT like dental pick instruments), and from behind me, my eldest son asked me what they were ... he knowing I did not do my own dental work.

Over my shoulder I gave him my best Jack Nicholson "Here's Johnny!" look with a maniacal grin, and said "... this is how I get people who lie to me to tell the truth!"

You know, raising three children, I cannot remember any one of them EVER lying to me.

.

 

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9 hours ago, bruceq said:

"In your opinion does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have the right and authority to interpret to us any given Bible teaching? Yes/No.

Sounds like a shibboleth. Closet apostates would likely let their yes mean no.

But the answer is an obvious YES.

Elders of all stripes should be qualified to teach. But the elders whom we trust the most to teach are the ones included in the "presiding" teaching positions in each of our local congregations. Therefore, by extension, we should also consider it right and organizationally correct, to include our most qualified elders in the the "presiding" teaching positions of the overall worldwide congregation. The Bible does not speak of a separate body within the congregational body, and we cannot speak of this body of elders as our Head or our Leader. Nevertheless, the group of elders whom we refer to as the Governing Body fills a key presiding position in the congregation. Therefore all the following scriptures should apply without hesitation:

(1 Thessalonians 5:12, 13) 12 Now we request you, brothers, to show respect for those who are working hard among you and presiding over you in the Lord and admonishing you; 13 and to give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.. . .

(1 Timothy 5:17) 17 Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. . .

(Hebrews 13:17) 17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, . . .

(Hebrews 13:7) 7 Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.

(Romans 12:4-8) 4 For just as we have in one body many members, but the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but individually we are members belonging to one another. 6 Since, then, we have gifts that differ according to the undeserved kindness given to us, if it is of prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or if it is a ministry, let us be at this ministry; or the one who teaches, let him be at his teaching; 8 or the one who encourages, let him give encouragement; the one who distributes, let him do it liberally; the one who presides, let him do it diligently; the one who shows mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

(1 Corinthians 12:27-29) 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation: first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services; abilities to direct; different tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they?

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Unfortunately, one cannot know anything on the internet.

Shiwiii is actually a circuit overseer who is having a bad day.

I have to admit that I thought BibleSpeaks was a gentleman (until Queen Esther said something definite) and that Shiwii was a lady until today.  Well don't blame me. The language of truth is not feminine or masculine and with no photo what am I going to do.

James, that would not have worked.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Sounds like a shibboleth. Closet apostates would likely let their yes mean no.

Yes, reminds me a little of when some elders in the past (I don’t know if they still do it) would ask a “dubious” brother a similar question, as if the answer solved all of the other problems. I don’t think this was necessarily Bruce’s intent, but it’s nice to see, after all the misunderstandings have been cleared, all at the party are mates again! :)

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11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The Hemlock Lake to Rochester fresh water channel is gravity fed. Once the water reaches city reserviors, of course, it is pressurized. 

You are wrong, TTH .... (SUPRISE!) ... the Hemlock Water Treatment Plant, almost 28 miles due South of Rochester, YOUR HOME TOWN (?), is almost 900 feet above sea level ... and most of Rochester is somewhere around 250 to 500 feet above sea level.  The water is treated AT THE PLANT and enters several pipes about 5 feet in diameter, and for every 33 feet of drop going through those pipes towards Rochester, gains a full atmosphere of PRESSURE from the gravity.

It's a HIGH PRESSURE line requiring gasketed and flanged steel pipes.  Rochester prefers to buy it's water from Hemlock Lake because it does NOT require electric pumps,  like say, the treatment plant North of the city drawing water from Lake Ontario,  which does require pumping because it is UPHILL to Rochester users ... It costs MONEY to pump water to the head of a water treatment plant, and then uphill and to the top of a water tower, etc.

The Hemlock Lake Facility has all the pressure it needs, and MORE.  and the water is treated NOT in Rochester .. but at the Hemlock Water Treatment Plant.

A 4" pipe opened fully at the bottom would shoot a column of water several hundred feet into the sky.

Sewers, on the other hand, ARE NON- PRESSURIZED GRAVITY LINES, and are NOT pressure pipes ... except for "force mains" (uphill sewer lines, and hydraulic siphons .. a comparative rarity ..) are designed to flow 3/4 full, maximum, by gravity, as above 3/4 full the "hydraulic radius" actually makes a full pipe flow more slowly and less efficiently than a partially filled sewer pipe, because of friction against the pipe's side walls. They usually have "slip joints" with rubber "O" rings, and a lot of ground water seeps into sewers with the MUCH cheaper pipe fittings, which can be bent into a radius with about 12 degrees at the end of each pipe section, if needed.

They have MANHOLES with vent holes that are at atmospheric pressure, THAT DO NOT SQUIRT SEWAGE HIGH INTO THE SKY.

THERE IS AIR IN THE MANHOLES, AND AIR IN THE SEWER LINES

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I do notice, however, that I have taken you up on your constant taunt: 'challenge me on ANYTHING - PLEASE DO IT! - and see if I am not the VERY PERSONIFICATION of TRUTH' and you skulk away, tail between your legs, with a 'oh, sorry, I was talking about someone else.' 

Too scared to walk the sewers, are you? My great grandpa would have eaten you for lunch!

I have never sulked away from one of your ranting challenges ... because I do not NEED to ... you are ALWAYS wrong.

You also always misquote me in order to make yourself look good, many times by SELECTIVELY quoting, and then make up some disparaging fantasy and try to project it from YOUR mind, to me.  

That's OK ... I am not the slightest bit offended ... if you want to continue it's no problem for me to continue to cut you off at the knees.  That is the advantage of an outrageous sense of humor ... most EVERYTHING is FUNNY!

I EXPECT to be challenged on everything I say, without exception, so how could I possibly be offended when someone calls me on it and actually does?

That is the way it SHOULD BE.   The only alternative is to have a Nation of Fools, con-men, and their marks.

Oh, and by the way ... there is not a "channel", anywhere in the system.

It is a magnificent system that still works the way it was designed over a hundred years ago.  You may be justifiably proud of your (edited: Great Grandfather's) efforts.

NEXT?

 

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10 minutes ago, Vic Vomidog said:

Let's start up a thread on those CAVEATS!

Already been done, vomit dog, they're old hat. Besides, you have a reputation of -2, you don't qualify to make any suggestions in this orchestra

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18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

"This concludes this evening's performance of 'The 1914 Overture,' with Maestro Bruce Q conducting the Forum Orchestra and Chorale, with JTR acccompanying on the cymbals. Maestro Q brilliantly led the orchestra through a strident interpretation of 'Hail to the Chief,' before finally rallying all for a stirring rendition of 'We Will Be Loyal With Caveats!' Our thanks to @The Librarianfor keeping the concert hall open past her bedtime. Tune in next week when we will hear a performance of the timeless opera 'The Overlappers.'"

He he he! By the way, I think the Librarian is on holiday again, otherwise surely she/he wouldn't be tolerating that sewer discussion between you and JTR, and the Rolex affair with me...

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22 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You may be justifiably proud of your Grandfather's efforts.

Great grandfather. My grandfather was a Kodak man, back when there was a Kodak. (it still exists, but it is a shadow, and is largely out of town.

 

24 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You are wrong, TTH

Well, that's what they told us at Cobb's Hill Reservior, when they unveiled a monument (plaque) to great grandpa. they opened up the facility then and anyone that wanted could climb down and see the infrastructure. Whatever was today is not necessarily the same as yesteryear, but the general pattern is the same, with updates.

I don't have it at my fingertips, but if he died at 102 and maintained an office at City Hall till then, his 30 years might be more. Perhaps it is 40. Or perhaps it is his formal employment as C.O, after which there were years of consulting. He is listed as among Rochester's most dedicated public servants. Nobody has heard of him anymore, which is a good reminder of how quickly we are forgotten after our time, regardless of our accomplishments,  and how welcome is the prospect of everlasting life.

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34 minutes ago, Anna said:

Already been done, vomit dog, they're old hat. Besides, you have a reputation of -2, you don't qualify to make any suggestions in this orchestra

I FIND THIS HIGHLY OFFENSIVE, MISS @The LibrarianANNA IS MAKING FUN OF MY NAME. THE VOMIDOG FAMILY HAS PROUD ROOTS REACHING BACK TO NIMROD. IT IS NOT 'VOMIT DOG!' I AM INSULTED! MAKE HER STOP!

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8 minutes ago, Vic Vomidog said:

I FIND THIS HIGHLY OFFENSIVE, MISS @The LibrarianANNA IS MAKING FUN OF MY NAME. THE VOMIDOG FAMILY HAS PROUD ROOTS REACHING BACK TO NIMROD. IT IS NOT 'VOMIT DOG!' I AM INSULTED! MAKE HER STOP!

No luck there Vomi, she's on some tropical island tanning her hide and doesn't wish to be bothered

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