Governing Body: Does it show loyalty or disloyalty to question the GB?

[Anna]

50 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

What is more important to Jehovah God: organizational unity or personal Bible-based conscience?

I guess this depends on the severity or importance of the matter in dispute with your conscience. If the matter it is so serious, that your Bible based conscience is seriously affected, then you must obey your conscience obviously. This does not mean you have to go and advertise YOUR opinion on a matter to others and in this way maybe cause them upset and disunity. It is between you and Jehovah in the end. If we see something that is grossly and seriously wrong, then we should communicate our concerns to those in charge of the congregation, there is nothing wrong with doing that. We can take it as far as we want but there is only so much we as individuals can do and we should be wise and accept that. For example, I know we are talking about doctrinal matters here, but I cannot think of anything that is SO doctrinally wrong that it would warrant drastic action,  so I will use the example of something bad going on in the congregation that you have been privy to. Lets assume it's to with an elder behaving inappropriately with a child and you have reasonable suspicions that the child is being sexually abused. Your conscience is telling you to report this to the other elders. You do so, but you notice that because the elder under suspicion is very popular, there does not seem any action that is being taken. You notice that nothing is changing, that the person in question is still able to access the child and from the child's behavior you become more and more convinced that the child is being sexually abused. You have several options, depending on how your conscience is directing you. You either leave it be, or you implore the elders again, or you go to the police. After that, you have exhausted all your options and there is nothing much else you can do but wait if the elders, or the police, can do something about it. Similarly with doctrinal matters, there is only so much you can do, when you have exhausted all your options, all you have left is to wait or leave.

50 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

For instance, let's say hypothetically after much Bible research I came to a differing view on a Watchtower doctrine. If my differing views were exposed, I would probably get disfellowshipped. However, what if that doctrine was later revised by the Governing Body and now agreed with my personal views? This has happened before. So, who is in the wrong in this situation? Should we just follow along with a direction even if it violates our own Bible-based conscience? What scriptural basis does the Governing Body have to be the special ones that are definitive interpreters of scripture?

I can understand your reasoning. But I really cannot think of anything so serious doctrinally where we would have to insist on a change because it affected our conscience so severely.  If we thought it so bad, then the obvious option would be to leave and find a religion that agrees with our interpretation. I do not think that just having your differing views exposed would get you disfellowshipped. It is your trying to convince others and pushing your views onto others that might get you removed as a Witness.

50 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

And furthermore, why does the GB get a free pass when they get things wrong? Because there is a history of that. Since the standards are pretty strict on rank-and-file JWs, it would seem like a double-standard if they didn't have consequences for teaching incorrect ideas to millions of others. Wouldn't they as suppliers of spiritual food be held to a much higher standard than anyone else? 

It might seem like they are getting a free pass when things go wrong, but have no fear, Jehovah sees everything, and in the end we will all stand and in front of him and  "each of us will render an account for himself to God".  "For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad". 

P.S. You say:  " For instance, let's say hypothetically after much Bible research I came to a differing view on a Watchtower doctrine. If my differing views were exposed, I would probably get disfellowshipped. However, what if that doctrine was later revised by the Governing Body and now agreed with my personal views"? Perhaps you can give an actual example. But please use a new topic if you can, because I do not want to hijack JWI's thread any more than I have already.

[TrueTomHarley]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Apologies to @JW Insiderfor causing a break in the thread.

He'll live.

 

5 hours ago, Anna said:

This brings to mind an instance a few years ago, which actually involved you (yes, really, lol) when I was reading your stories in "Sheep and goats" and someone criticized it

What was her name?

3 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I am not suggesting a Governing Body shouldn't exist or that we shouldn't strive to follow along with them.

 

3 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And furthermore, why does the GB get a free pass when they get things wrong?

What would you suggest?

[Noble Berean]

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What would you suggest?

Well, I believe the organization could move toward a more balanced and less dogmatic direction. I feel like there's a lot more gray area in the Bible than the organization wants to let on. I don't think it would hurt for the GB to apologize for some of its missteps. I can't give a clear answer on how to make the organization better. I can only point out the things that aren't working right now.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

I feel like there's a lot more gray area in the Bible than the organization wants to let on.

If they did not recognize this they would not speak of tacking, or of 'the light getting brighter.' How can the light get brighter on a book that has been in their possession from Day 1 if it did not have gray areas?

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

I don't think it would hurt for the GB to apologize for some of its missteps

You have only to look at the political arena to see how well leadership by apology works. Does anyone EVER accept an apology? Or do they not just seize upon one as grounds for dismissal? They all have their own agendas there and most want to torpedo their opponent, not reform him. Most people accept that it is no piece of cake to look into the future and don't demand apologies. It is enough for the GB to carry on humbly and to express regret from time to time, as they did regarding 1975.

 

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

 I can't give a clear answer on how to make the organization better. I can only point out the things that aren't working right now.

Is there anyone who can't do this?

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

I believe the organization could move toward a more balanced and less dogmatic direction.

It is the complaint of every child toward a parent. But the parent takes his role seriously, all the more so as times get more dangerous. In my time, long ago, parents opened the door and off their children flew, not to reappear until mealtime. Parents hadn't a clue where they were. Today, conscious of greater danger, parents watch kids much more closely. Frequently the scriptures liken congregation authority to parenting. 

 

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

the organization could move toward a more balanced and less dogmatic direction

Like this (from the Revelation Book introduction)?   " "It is not claimed that explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say "do not interpretations belong to God?" (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety."

How would you improve upon that?

[Noble Berean]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If they did not recognize this they would not speak of tacking, or of 'the light getting brighter.' How can the light get brighter on a book that has been in their possession from Day 1 if it did not have gray areas?

What does "light getting brighter' even mean? Would Jehovah God send inaccurate or incomplete information to his slave ? Or is it just an attempt to shift away accountability for mistakes? 

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You have only to look at the political arena to see how well leadership by apology works. Does anyone EVER accept an apology? Or do they not just seize upon one as grounds for dismissal? They all have their own agendas there and most want to torpedo their opponent, not reform him. Most people accept that it is no piece of cake to look into the future and don't demand apologies. It is enough for the GB to carry on humbly and to express regret from time to time, as they did regarding 1975.

The Governing Body is not just some politician. It holds itself on a moral pedestal as God's channel. So when they make major mistakes they should apologize. It's the very least they could do.

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 "It is not claimed that explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say "do not interpretations belong to God?" (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety."

How would you improve upon that?

But how can you have it both ways? How can you clearly state a message is fallible but demand unquestioned obedience to that same message?

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

I’ve read many of past post. You're beginning to sound like “anonymousBrother” when he said and I quote “WE HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO CRITICIZE THE GOVERNING BODY” unquote.

I believe the question was raised, BY WHOSE AUTHORITY DO YOU CRITICIZE AND QUESTION THE ABILITY OF THE GB. No one has answered that scripturally, yet. They get there “direction” from God himself. Where do you get your direction from, JWinsider, Anna, CompfortMyPeople, the librarian, TrueTomHarley, Etc?  Everyone that is associated with the “Virginian”?

You fear being “disfellowshipped” for having your own “interpretation” of scripture. How many apostles do you think had a different interpretation of Jesus words to go against his teaching. I can say for sure the “Pharisees and the “high priest” did. So, are you and these people mentioned above beyond reproach as Jesus was? Your interpretation of Bible understanding reminds me of people that DON’ T consider “sexual immorality” WRONG. This is, in essence, the same.

1 Corinthians 6:12-20New International Version (NIV)

Sexual Immorality

¹² “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. ¹³ You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. ¹⁴ By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. ¹⁵ Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! ¹⁶ Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”^[a]17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

 

 TrueTomHarley has changed his stripes a little here “defending” JWinsider. Why, because he’s perceived as an intellect? Anyone who defies Scripture is deserving of being disfellowshipped. This website deserves to be called an “apostate” website, regardless of the motives. There is NO justification to “defile” the sanctity of God. For what, so, people who write books ask false questions to receive opinions(DATA) impute, from others?

 

Proverbs 4:14-19English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁴ Do not enter the path of the wicked, and do not walk in the way of the evil. ¹⁵ Avoid it; do not go on it; turn away from it and pass on.¹⁶ For they cannot sleep unless they have done wrong;
they are robbed of sleep unless they have made someone stumble.¹⁷ For they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.¹⁸ But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day.¹⁹ The way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know over what they stumble.

 

Philippians 2:4-5New International Version (NIV)

⁴ not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

⁵ In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

 

2 Thessalonians 2New King James Version (NKJV)

 

The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, ² not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ^[a] had come. ³ Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin^[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God^[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

⁵ Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? ⁶ And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. ⁷ For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He^[d] who now restrains will do so until He^[e] is taken out of the way. ⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, ¹⁰ and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ¹¹ And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, ¹² that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, your anecdotal of being shunned is “false” for having free will. What you are boasting is your own self-serving interest. If you get disfellowshipped, it will be because it’s bible based, and that’s something your reliance on the word of others, here, fails you.

2 Timothy 3Common English Bible (CEB)

Avoid people like this

3 Understand that the last days will be dangerous times. ² People will be selfish and love money. They will be the kind of people who brag and who are proud. They will slander others, and they will be disobedient to their parents. They will be ungrateful, unholy, ³ unloving, contrary, and critical. They will be without self-control and brutal, and they won’t love what is good. ⁴ They will be people who are disloyal, reckless, and conceited. They will love pleasure instead of loving God. ⁵ They will look like they are religious but deny God’s power. Avoid people like this. ⁶ Some will slither into households and control immature women who are burdened with sins and driven by all kinds of desires. ⁷ These women are always learning, but they can never arrive at an understanding of the truth. ⁸ These people oppose the truth in the same way that Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses. Their minds are corrupt and their faith is counterfeit. ⁹ But they won’t get very far. Their foolishness will become obvious to everyone like those others.

You also ask a hypothetical with several anecdotal's. You mention and I quote “NB- “Should we just follow along with a direction even if it violates our own Bible-based conscience?” Let’s see this perspective with scripture (Bible-Based), shall we? I can see the intellect TrueTomHarley is referring to.

1 Timothy 4:2-4New King James Version (NKJV)

² speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, ³ forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. ⁴ For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;

Then you “question” the “authority the Governing Body was given by GOD to dispense spiritual food, by your quote, “NB’-“What scriptural basis does the Governing Body have to be the special ones that are definitive interpreters of scripture?” First, I will remind you of this is inconsistent with the statement you made earlier (NB- Correct, Jehovah God has used imperfect men to take the lead, and I am not suggesting a Governing Body shouldn't exist) Let’s start with the “authority” that Christ gave the “apostles” and move forward.

Matthew 10:1-2New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Twelve Disciples; Instructions for Service

10 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

² Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and ^[a]James the son of Zebedee, and ^[b]John his brother

Then Jesus Commissions the 70, or 72 depending on which version of the Bible you use.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/jesus/ministry-in-judea/sends-out-70/

Luke 10New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two

10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two^[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. ² He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. ³ Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. ⁴ Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

This GOD given “authority” passed on to the apostles to make disciples, so that they may also be “baptized” to receive God’s Holy Spirit and has continued forward by “Proclaiming God’s Kingdom” through the millennia.

1 John 2:27New International Version (NIV)

²⁷ As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Matthew 24:45-51New International Version (NIV)

⁴⁵ “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? ⁴⁶ It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. ⁴⁷ Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. ⁴⁸ But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ ⁴⁹ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. ⁵⁰ The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. ⁵¹ He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Acts 6 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

The Disciples Choose Seven Men to Help the Apostles

6 At that time, as the number of disciples grew, Greek-speaking Jews complained about the Hebrew-speaking Jews. The Greek-speaking Jews claimed that the widows among them were neglected every day when food and other assistance was distributed.

² The twelve apostles called all the disciples together and told them, “It’s not right for us to give up God’s word in order to distribute food. ³ So, brothers and sisters, choose seven men whom the people know are spiritually wise. We will put them in charge of this problem. ⁴ However, we will devote ourselves to praying and to serving in ways that are related to the word.”

⁵ The suggestion pleased the whole group. So they chose Stephen, who was a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and they chose Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, who had converted to Judaism in the city of Antioch. ⁶ The disciples had these men stand in front of the apostles, who prayed and placed their hands on these seven men.

⁷ God’s word continued to spread, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem grew very large. A large number of priests accepted the faith.

Now ask yourself, he who “begins to beat his fellow servants” really believe you have been “anointed” by GOD himself to give spiritual food, criticize, and teach? With the rhetoric here I WOULD SAY NO! based on scripture.

As for the rest, it’s nonsensical! Just like attempting to disprove the “Gentile times” “generations” and “prophetic chronology” by most of you!!!!

[Anna]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

So, I can only say - the new way of looking at these dates is not the problem to me - it is the obsessiveness with it - which is.  It is as though this drives the person and all his social contacts....to this point of discussion. And what better place can one find than a forum like this?

I agree with most of your sentiments, especially about the obsessivenes. There are opposers who have blogs and websites and it seems they dedicate their whole life to "watching" the organization and reporting negatively on every single move with venom. It makes me wonder how such indivuduals can even live a normal life. You have experience with friends and relatives who have become apostate, so you know the general pattern, and I understand your concern. But I do not agree with your statement above in this case.  @TrueTomHarley  mentioned something with regard to expertise in certain fields and how writers and those who study a subject in depth often get misunderstood, whereas others who work with "tangable" things are appreciated. I love it when my friend comes and fixes my computer and shares his expertise with me.  But when it comes to analytical thought, which is expressed on "paper", and is shared with others, that just seems to be taboo. What better place to share this kind of thought but on a forum, where one can even receive feedback, whether it be recognition, or dissmisal. Where would one find a better place without upsetting the congregation and without "spreading contentious ideas" ? The title of this thread clearly shows the matter under discussion, so if someone would rather not read this kind of thing, they do not have to read it. So I do not see that talking about such things on a public forum means one is obsessively pushing one's ideas.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Everyone that is associated with the “Virginian”?

Who is the "Virginian"?

[Anna]

8 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

They get there “direction” from God himself. Where do you get your direction from, JWinsider, Anna, CompfortMyPeople, the librarian, TrueTomHarley, Etc?

In order to be able to answer that I would have to know what you mean by "They get there “direction” from God himself". Do you mean that Jehovah directly communicates with them through some supernatural way, or that they get their direction from His own word, the Bible? If it's the latter, then all true Christians get their direction from that source.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Where do you get your direction from..., TrueTomHarley, Etc?  Everyone that is associated with the “Virginian”?

Yikes! TrueTom, TrueTom? Except for kidnapping @The Librarian, what has he done?

[TrueTomHarley]

28 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

But since this is an “open” forum according to the rules of this business endeavor, then what gives the “G.Concept” (TTH-A Persona of P&A) a reason to “forbid” someone, as quoted “means one is obsessively pushing one’s ideas”, from those that want to interject “truth” to the otherwise “untruthful”.

TTH again. Look, it's not about me, but is it becoming about me? I am unclear as to the meaning of the above. I don't know P&A, nor the Virginian.

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

Hmm! How well entuned does one need to be, to receive God’s Holy Spirit to dispense spiritual food with prayer and insight, given by GOD?

There are those among us that say “yes it’s me” while causing his brother to stumble. Then, who would GOD give his guidance to!!!

Scripture can be read by an atheist, and that atheist can defile the sanctity of God. Does this atheist receive God’s Holy Spirit? Does God through prayer give this person bible understanding, even if that person has corrupted its understanding?

Isaiah 8:19-20

 

When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritisms who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead-on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.

 

Acts 9:10-11

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying,

Acts 10:3-6

About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!" And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. "Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter;

Acts 11:5-9

"I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance, I saw a vision, an object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me, and when I had fixed my gaze on it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air. "I also heard a voice saying to me, 'Get up, Peter; kill and eat.'

Matthew 2:19-20

But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, "Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child's life are dead."

Luke 12:48New International Version (NIV)

⁴⁸ But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

I believe TrueTom has finally defined the position here. It's NOT about him. It's also, NOT about anyone here. It's about applying scripture with its proper understanding, that intellects can err with their understanding. That's why God Choose those that are worthy to sanctify him, NOT JWinsider, TrueTom, Anna, etc.