Demonism and the Watchtower

[Anna]

19 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Do you really think if it were possible that any resurrected members of the 144000 were to in some way communicate information to faithful Christians on earth this would properly be classed as "spiritism"?

I know this question is not addressed to me, but if I may, I think that that believing that kind of communication would be akin to believing the angel Moroni giving the golden tablets to Joseph Smith.

As I said in my previous comment, I thought this kind of communication ceased after the last of the apostles died. That is why I find the WT quote very atypical and a bit out of place.......and that is why I can safely say the story about angel Moroni is goobledygook or else it's directly from Satan...

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

My position with the definition of spritism is that Jehovah has provided an adequate definition of what is encompassed in this practice in His Word.  From comparing both Deuteronomy 18:9-12, and Galatians 5:20, it is quite easy to conclude correctly that engagement in this condemned activity is on the part of the human practicer, as it is both legislated against in a law code for humans, and later described as a "work of the flesh".

My position is that we must be very careful about anything that could fall under the definition of spiritism and not try to limit its meaning to something narrower. Also, I have only seen these claims of getting knowledge from the spirit world used as excuse to fortifying a doctrine that has no purely scriptural basis such as the old 1935 doctrine, or evidence that Russell was personally "That Faithful and Wise Servant" who had been appointed over the household of faith. Remember that the typical purpose of spiritism was to be able to claim otherwise secret knowledge that was not available through proper channels. It was often about being able to claim knowledge of the future. This is why I think that spiritism also includes divination. And if we are not careful to avoid all types of divination, we could be susceptible to the influence without being aware. It is a work of the flesh, because people have a desire to claim special knowledge, have their ego stroked, to claim special privilege, or special gifts. It's often because they want to be able to Lord it over their fellow man. Just like immorality is a temptation for some, spiritism is therefore a "temptation" for others, perhaps because it's like fits of anger, hostility and strife, divisions and sects, in that these are all related to trying to show one is better or more right.

• (Galatians 5:19-21) 19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these.. . .

The acceptance of communication with the spirit world for the purpose of gaining secret knowledge, no matter who initiated it, might be spiritism. This does not mean that all forms of communication with the spirit world is included. Prayer is an obvious exception. But you and I do not accept that we should be communicating with angels. The brothers in the Governing Body have made it clear that there is no communication with angels. Communicating with the spirit world is surely a questionable practice. Is it ever recommended that you or I might also be susceptible to such communication from members of the 144,000 who have died? Is it a good thing? Are we led to expect that this is only for special purposes for those deserving or needing special knowledge? What would we think if Brother Albert who sits in the back of your Kingdom Hall claimed to have received such special knowledge through such a communication? Does it only then seem like something might be amiss about such a claim?

 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

To me all this shows how susceptible Woodworth was to this "all or nothing" "black and white" thinking. He seems to have had no clue that trying to stay up 5 days in a row might also drive one to the brink of insanity. It is rumored that his work on the Finished Mystery was also done with the same lack of sleep.

People in those days were so "superstitious" and gullible to believing a lot of things. One can understand how the Mormon church got started....and maybe Christian Scientists, but I cannot say for sure because I don't know anything about them.

Russell was quite unique in a way with his "open minded" and reasonable attitude.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The wt requires the jws to align and if they do not they are pushed out.

Well, my opinion on that is different to yours. You can get pushed out for a lot of things that you would get pushed out in any other institution when you don't follow the rules you agreed to. But you make it sound like you get pushed out for having your own thought on something. But this is off topic here. It has been discussed elsewhere.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I'd rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question

Of course, I'm with you on that one

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

generation - definition? according to whom is the key. 

I understand the definition is an opinion. But that's also discussed in another topic....

[Shiwiii]

19 minutes ago, Anna said:

But you make it sound like you get pushed out for having your own thought on something.

if you do not adhere to the teaching of the overlapping generation, you're out! See the thread about it. 

20 minutes ago, Anna said:

I understand the definition is an opinion.

if it were opinion, then why in the heck do we have dictionaries then? Are those rubbish? 

[Anna]

 

3 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

if you do not adhere to the teaching of the overlapping generation, you're out! See the thread about it. 

if it were opinion, then why in the heck do we have dictionaries then? Are those rubbish? 

If it's the same thread, then I have not seen any evidence for being pushed out for having difficulty with the overlapping generation.

You misunderstood, I was referring to the overlapping generation being an opinion. I thought that is what you were talking about.

[Shiwiii]

10 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

If it's the same thread, then I have not seen any evidence for being pushed out for having difficulty with the overlapping generation.

You misunderstood, I was referring to the overlapping generation being an opinion. I thought that is what you were talking about.

Tell me how the overlapping generation is a matter of personal opinion? 

Didn't everyone think those old folks on the cover of that mag were not going to die? This was doctrine. Then it became those who were alive and could perceive the events of that time would not die. Next it was those who were born then would not die, and now it includes people not even in the same generation? how absurd. I can dig up the wt references if you'd like. 

[Anna]

11 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Tell me how the overlapping generation is a matter of personal opinion? 

Didn't everyone think those old folks on the cover of that mag were not going to die? This was doctrine. Then it became those who were alive and could perceive the events of that time would not die. Next it was those who were born then would not die, and now it includes people not even in the same generation? how absurd. I can dig up the wt references if you'd like. 

It's ok, you dot need to dig up any references, I'm quite familiar with the ins and outs of this subject. However, I thought we were talking about being pushed out if you don't believe the overlapping generation theory.  You are still misunderstanding me though. I was saying that the overlapping generation theory IS an opinion.

[Shiwiii]

15 minutes ago, Anna said:

It's ok, you dot need to dig up any references, I'm quite familiar with the ins and outs of this subject. However, I thought we were talking about being pushed out if you don't believe the overlapping generation theory.  You are still misunderstanding me though. I was saying that the overlapping generation theory IS an opinion.

Do you believe the overlapping generation ? What is your opinion? 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Rutherford, for example, taught that the Great Pyramid was Jehovah's witness in stone, just as Russell had

Ah. Here it is:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/09/20/september-23-end-of-world-theory/

Saturday. Be ready. Tip off Shiwiii as well. Wouldn't want him to miss the cut.

[Shiwiii]

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Ah. Here it is:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/09/20/september-23-end-of-world-theory/

Saturday. Be ready. Tip off Shiwiii as well. Wouldn't want him to miss the cut.

i'm in i'm in!      Wait.................... which generation is this for? 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Do you believe the overlapping generation ? What is your opinion? 

I have discussed this under the appropriate topic already. My opinion is the overlapping generation makes no sense, and it doesn't make sense to quite a number of other Witnesses either. On the other hand, it does makes sense to quite a number too, and I am not going to argue with them. Opinion is opinion after all.....