The Holy Spirit

[Queen Esther]

Its very simple sister @Cos..... Our funny brother Rook is sometimes joking Â Â And of sure, he is daily reading in the Bible??? We are all special, little different JW....  thats normal in all countries, bec. we are imperfect people, with the same goal ! Thank you...

Best wishes and greetings from far away Germany??? Agape!

[Space Merchant]

On 4/22/2018 at 7:07 AM, Queen Esther said:

Its very simple sister @Cos..... Our funny brother Rook is sometimes joking Â Â And of sure, he is daily reading in the Bible??? We are all special, little different JW....  thats normal in all countries, bec. we are imperfect people, with the same goal ! Thank you...

Best wishes and greetings from far away Germany??? Agape!

True. However I believe I addressed that Unicorn thing a while back though. The bible also speaks, well in this case in the KJV/NKJV, of Satyrs as well. Well not here, but elsewhere on this forum.

[Space Merchant]

On 4/22/2018 at 5:34 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do read my Bible, but I use common sense in doing so. 

  The KJV mentions Unicorns 9 times, but does not mention cookie making Keebler Elves, not even once.

Coincidence?

Ah, now you remind me, as a child, I loved Keebler Cookies, liked the M&M's ones too.

Anyways, as far as I know Unicorns is but one mention in the scriptures, mainly the KJV/NKJV translations. I know the others, but time and time again the Unicorn one has been brought up a lot, mainly with those who are only familiar with the fantasy Unicorn whereas not many people are aware of what Rhinos were called back in the day. I blame such on Disney and the Brony community.

This picture sums up the Brony Community who are Unicorn/Phony Fanatics:

People can have their fun, but sometimes it tends to go on a bit on the extreme level.

 

That being said, I agree with your comment, and now the sudden reminiscing of keebler cookies.

 

Other then that, the person who reads their bible would know what a Unicorn is in regards to Rhinos, but someone who reads the bible, dare I say the KJV, and stumbles across any verse that speaks of Unicorns, they will probably chuckle, perhaps laugh with an obvious thought in mind, as well as a hint of confusion.

 

As for the Holy Spirit, it is as it is implied in the bible and the very scriptures as well as the oldest source of what the bible is based on. Even after Jesus' death people tend to get confused about what the Holy Spirit actually is, some would come to the conclusion that it is a person with its own mind or something like that. But the bible makes it clear of what the Holy Spirit is and what it can and cannot do - anyone who says otherwise, clearly has not given clear research on what it is in the bible itself, I would go off into detail, but that would be for another time, for when I start rolling, it is as if I am writing a book with every attention to detail.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Actually, I studied this a LONG time ago, but didn't care much... King James of England  (..who had the power of arbitrary life and death...) guided the translators, and it was assumed the King knew everything (by those who never saw him drunk ...), so when the translators came up to him they asked all kinds of questions .... and he replied giving them "New Light" ( Remember... at his coronation he was said to be chosen by God to rule England...), about spirits, ghosts, demons, the divine right of kings, and other political subjects, and they asked him what a particular word meant ... and what was really a kind of water buffalo or something like that (I forget...) King James  advised the translators , in his "divinely inspired wisdom" that the word in question was "Unicorn".

I am a Barbarian with a chain-saw theology, but JW Insider can probably give you a better answer, as his theology is "scalpel based".

Where the rubber meets the road is the fact that in the English KJV, the Unicorn shows up NINE TIMES.

That is why when you read ANY Bible ... you have to test everything to see if it makes common sense ... because Bible Translation is an ART.  It is NOT an exact science, especially when translating idiomatic expressions from one language to another, as different languages have completely different patterns of ideas, and ways of expressing things.

Translation is an ART ... and being good at it is a very rare skill in a world full of pretenders who THINK they know how to do it well ... and get paid very well to do it very poorly.

If you already BELIEVE the "Holy Ghost" is a person, or God is a Trinity ... when you read to translate ... THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL SEE.  

THIS IS HOW GREAT ERROR BECOMES THE NORM FOR ALL SUBSEQUENT READERS.

You MUST base your theology on plain old every day common sense, using what you know is actually real for patterns and examples ... not playing with millions of words.

.

 

[Space Merchant]

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Actually, I studied this a LONG time ago, but didn't care much... King James of England  (..who had the power of arbitrary life and death...) guided the translators, and it was assumed the King knew everything (by those who never saw him drunk ...), so when the translators came up to him they asked all kinds of questions .... and he replied giving them "New Light" ( Remember... at his coronation he was said to be chosen by God to rule England...), about spirits, ghosts, demons, the divine right of kings, and other political subjects, and they asked him what a particular word meant ... and what was really a kind of water buffalo or something like that (I forget...) King James  advised the translators , in his "divinely inspired wisdom" that the word in question was "Unicorn".

I am a Barbarian with a chain-saw theology, but JW Insider can probably give you a better answer, as his theology is "scalpel based".

Where the rubber meets the road is the fact that in the English KJV, the Unicorn shows up NINE TIMES.

That is why when you read ANY Bible ... you have to test everything to see if it makes common sense ... because Bible Translation is an ART.  It is NOT an exact science, especially when translating idiomatic expressions from one language to another, as different languages have completely different patterns of ideas, and ways of expressing things.

Translation is an ART ... and being good at it is a very rare skill in a world full of pretenders who THINK they know how to do it well ... and get paid very well to do it very poorly.

If you already BELIEVE the "Holy Ghost" is a person, or God is a Trinity ... when you read to translate ... THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL SEE.  

THIS IS HOW GREAT ERROR BECOMES THE NORM FOR ALL SUBSEQUENT READERS.

You MUST base your theology on plain old every day common sense, using what you know is actually real for patterns and examples ... not playing with millions of words.

.

 

This is why it is very important to stick to the original source, let alone a bible translation that sticks to said source compared to others that do not.

For the slightly of error can cause many to mislead, and the mislead misleads others.

Any example of this would be 1 Timothy 3:16. This verse has led others, in fact, millions, to believe Jesus is God, however, what such people do not know is what the original manuscripts have stated.

For the sake of this response, I will make a reference to the KJV, despite my disdain for King James and his translators, mainly Francis "shaky hands" Bacon.

• KJV - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

We see in this verse in the KJV, they replaced what was originally there with God whereas a majority of other bibles will simply say He or the Christ came as a Human, something of that nature.

examples:

• CEV - Here is the great mystery of our religion: Christ came as a human. The Spirit proved that he pleased God, and he was seen by angels. Christ was preached to the nations. People in this world put their faith in him, and he was taken up to glory.
• NASB - By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
• BSB - By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.
• NIV - Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.
• ESV - Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
• He who was manifested in the flesh (ASV)
• Who was manifested in the flesh (NAB)
• He was manifested in the flesh (RSV)
• He was revealed in flesh (NRSV)
• Which was manifested in the flesh (Douey-Rheims)
• He was revealed in the flesh (NET)
• Who was manifested in the flesh (NAB)

In the Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses, they to stuck to the original source, as did the others mentioned above, giving references to said verse also.

NWT - Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

So it is clear that the following in regards to added words in scripture results in such things like this:

The Trinitarian Claim -  Trinitarians claim this verse identifies Jesus as "God" because it says "God was manifested in the flesh."

The Claim vs. The Facts - The manuscript evidence, and the immediate context, shows the KJV reading was not authored by Paul.

Conclusion  (quote) - So when we review all the evidence the solution is plain to see. The historical evidence indicates the word "God" was not there before the late fourth century at the earliest. The manuscript evidence indicates the word "God" was not in the original text. The grammar and the immediate context also indicate the KJV reading is not authentic. Christ is the mystery in question which is why the passage should read, "great is the mystery of godliness who/which was manifested in flesh, justified in spirit..." It "which" is correct it refers back the mystery; if "who" is correct it refers to Christ. Very obviously then the passage reads smoothly and makes total sense with the rest of Scripture by using either the word "who" or "which" which are attested in early manuscripts. The KJV reading is an obvious error or forgery.

Great is the mystery of godliness which/who was manifested in flesh."

So to a degree, no man who try some act of silliness when translating scripture, and no man will overwrite and or change as to what the original source has stated, but it didn't stop King James and crew sadly and quite plainly, Trinitarian translation scholars are admitting this version of the verse is not authentic. One then wonders why Trinitarians so often continue to appeal to it.

Therefore, false and or man man verses and or changed are added to scripture, in turn, blinds others and result in the blind leading the blind.

Mind you, this is but 1, of dozens of forgeries and errors to those who appeal to the KJV camp and or those in favor of later sources over the original one, especially those who do not know their Greek/Hebrew.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Thank you Space Merchant for doing the "heavy lifting" for me ... AND EVERYBODY ELSE !

I have in recent years lost the patience and discipline, and motivation to do it, but still appreciate the TRUTH, expertly proved.

By the way,  as a Space Merchant, any idea where I could buy six metric tons of the powdered orange flavored drink mix TANG ?

( ...arcane joke from the 60's NASA Space Program ... but I like it overly much ...)

[Cos]

Personality consists of possessing intellect, emotions, and will. The Holy Spirit has all three. All of these characteristics of personality are repeatedly ascribed to the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures.

 

 

 

Yet there are some who, without any Biblical evidence, flatly deny the Personality of the Spirit basing their bias opinion on their own ridiculous claims.

 

 

 

These misguided individuals fail to note that the Holy Spirit is endowed with understanding/wisdom, which is the first inseparable trait of an intelligent person: “for the (S)pirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God” (1 Cor. 2:10 NWT).

 

 

 

Now to “search” is an act of understanding. The same word is used by the Lord Jesus in John 5:39, where He says, “search the Scriptures”.

 

 

 

The Spirit is not a thing as some erroneous claim because only a real Person with intellect “searches into all things”.

 

 

 

Here the command of knowledge and understanding is ascribed to the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

But some whose minds are against the Bible would preposterously credit the attributes in this passage to a thing and then try to argue that this is just some sort of subspecies of metaphor. But why would that be, and what scriptural lesson is learnt from this if it is a metaphor as claimed? <><

[Space Merchant]

I would like to add this here since it is regarding the Holy Spirit. This is actually  a quote containing verses pertaining to the Holy Spirit.

 

Quote

Holy Spirit Absurdities

If the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity then:

• Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with [the third person of the Trinity] in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge (Exodus 31:1-3).

 

• Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your [third person of the Trinity] from me. (Psalm 51:11).

 

• Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My [third person of the Trinity] upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1).

 

• I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My [third person of the Trinity] on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:29).

 

• It will come about after this that I will pour out My [third person of the Trinity] on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (Joel 2:28).

 

• "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with [the third person of the Trinity] and fire. (Matthew 3:11).

 

• Jesus, full of [the third person of the Trinity], returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness (Luke 4:1).

 

• If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give [the third person of the Trinity to those who ask Him? (Luke 11:13).

 

• For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives [the third person of the Trinity] withthout measure. (John 3:34).

 

• Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of [the third person of the Trinity], Jesus has poured forth this which you both see and hear. (Acts 2:33).

 

• Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive [the third person of the Trinity] for [the third person of the Trinity] had not yet fallen on any of them... Then they laid their hands on them and they received [the third person of the Trinity]... Now when Simon saw that [the third person of the Trinity] was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money (Acts 8:14-15).

 

• While Peter was still saying this, [the third person of the Trinity] fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of [the third person of the Trinity] had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received [the third person of the Trinity] just as we have?" (Acts 10:43-47).

 

• But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have [the third person of the Trinity] (1 Corinthians 7:40).

 

• Did you receive [the third person of the Trinity] by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in [the third person of the Trinity], are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3).

 

• By this you know [the third person of the Trinity]: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2).

 

• I was in [the third person of the Trinity] on the Lord's day (Revelation 1:10).

Other:

Quote

Rather than describing the Holy Spirit as a distinct person or entity, the Bible most often refers to it as and connects it with God’s divine power (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8). Jewish scholars, examining the references to it in the Old Testament Scriptures, have never defined the Holy Spirit as anything but the power of God.

In the New Testament, Paul referred to it as the spirit of power, love and a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7). Informing Mary that Jesus would be supernaturally conceived in her womb, an angel told her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you …,” and he defined this as “the power of the Highest,” which “will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35).

Jesus began His ministry “in the power of the Spirit” (Luke 4:14). He told His followers, “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Acts 1:8).

Peter relates that “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power” (Acts 10:38). This was the same power that enabled Christ to perform many mighty miracles during His ministry. Likewise, Jesus worked through the apostle Paul “in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God” (Romans 15:19).
The Holy Spirit is the very nature, presence and expression of God’s power actively working in His servants (2 Peter 1:4; Galatians 2:20). Indeed, it is through His Spirit that God is able to be present everywhere at once throughout the universe and affect it at will (Psalms 139:7-10).

Again and again the Scriptures depict the Holy Spirit as the power of God. Furthermore, it is also shown to be the mind of God and the very essence and life force through which the Father begets human beings as His spiritual children. The Holy Spirit is not God, but is rather a vital aspect of God—the divine substance of the Father and Christ as well as the agency through which They work.

Divine inspiration and life through the Spirit

In its article about the Holy Spirit, The Anchor Bible Dictionary describes it as the “manifestation of divine presence and power perceptible especially in prophetic inspiration” (Vol. 3, 1992, p. 260).
Repeatedly the Scriptures reveal that God imparted divine inspiration to His prophets and servants through the Holy Spirit. Peter noted that “prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21).

Paul wrote that God’s plan for humanity had been “revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 3:5) and that his own teachings were inspired by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13). Paul further explains that it is through His Spirit that God has revealed to true Christians the things He has prepared for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). Working through the Spirit, God the Father is the revealer of truth to those who serve Him.

Jesus told His followers that the Holy Spirit, which the Father would send, “will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26). It is through God’s Spirit within us that we gain spiritual insight and understanding. Indeed, we come to receive the very “mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16)—also referred to as the “mind of the Spirit” (Romans 8:27).

Christ had this spiritual comprehension in abundance. As the Messiah, He was prophesied to have “the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord” (Isaiah 11:2).
As the Son of Man on earth, Christ portrayed in His personal conduct the divine attributes of Almighty God through completely living by His Father’s biblical standards through the power of the Holy Spirit (compare 1 Timothy 3:16).
Now returned to the spirit realm, Christ wields the omnipotent power of the Holy Spirit along with the Father. The Holy Spirit, we should understand, is not only the Spirit of God the Father, for the Bible also calls it the “Spirit of Christ” (Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19). By either designation, it is the same Spirit, as there is only one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
The Father imparts the same Spirit to true Christians through Christ (John 14:26; John 15:26; Titus 3:5-6), leading and enabling them to be His children and “partakers of the divine nature” (Romans 8:14; 2 Peter 1:4). God, who has eternal life in Himself, gives that life to others through the Spirit (John 5:26; John 6:63; Romans 8:11).

Impersonal attributes of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person. For example, it is referred to as a gift (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). We are told that the Holy Spirit can be quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19), that it can be poured out (Acts 2:17, Acts 2:33), and that we are baptized with it (Matthew 3:11).
People can drink of it (John 7:37-39), partake of it (Hebrews 6:4) and be filled with it (Acts 2:4; Ephesians 5:18). The Holy Spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6). These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person.

It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation” (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 1:17).

In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in Their form and shape, the Holy Spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (Acts 2:3), water (John 4:14; John 7:37-39), oil (Psalms 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on eternal life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV). These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the Holy Spirit is a person.

In Matthew 1:20 we find further evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct entity, but God’s divine power. Here we read that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. However, Jesus continually prayed to and addressed God the Father as His Father and not the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:32-33; Matthew 11:25-27; Matthew 12:50). He never represented the Holy Spirit as His Father. Clearly, the Holy Spirit was the agency or power through which the Father begot Jesus as His Son.

Paul’s example and teaching

If God were a Trinity, surely Paul, who recorded much of the theological underpinnings of the early Church, would have comprehended and taught this concept. Yet we find no such teaching in His writings.
Moreover, Paul’s standard greeting in his letter to the churches, as well as individuals to whom he wrote, is “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet in each of his greetings he never mentions the Holy Spirit. (The same can also be said of Peter in the salutations of both his epistles.)

The same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every epistle that bears Paul’s name (see Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; etc.) The Holy Spirit is always left out of these greetings—an unbelievable and inexplicable oversight if the Spirit were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ.

This is even more surprising when we consider that the congregations to which Paul wrote had many gentile members from polytheistic backgrounds who had formerly worshipped numerous gods. Paul’s epistles record no attempt on his part to explain the Trinity or Holy Spirit as a divine person equal with God the Father and Jesus Christ.

In all of Paul’s writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the Holy Spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV) in which believers share—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God’s Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.

Yet here, too, God’s Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the Holy Spirit. As 1 John 1:3 tells us, “Truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.
Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, … and one Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the Holy Spirit as a divine person.

Other biblical perspectives

Jesus likewise never spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine third person. Instead, in numerous passages He spoke only of the relationship between God the Father and Himself (Matthew 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18; John 5:22; etc.). The Holy Spirit as a person is conspicuously absent from Christ’s teaching in general. Of particular interest in this regard are His many statements about Himself and the Father, especially when He never makes similar statements about Himself and the Holy Spirit.
We should also consider that, in visions of God’s throne recorded in the Bible, although the Father and Christ are seen, the Holy Spirit is never seen (Acts 7:55-56; Daniel 7:9-14; Revelation 4-5; Revelation 7:10). Jesus is repeatedly mentioned as being at the right hand of God, but no one is mentioned as being at the Father’s left hand. Nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in the Scriptures.

Even in the final book of the Bible (and the last to be written), the Holy Spirit as a divine person is absent from its pages. The book describes “a new heaven and new earth” (Revelation 21:1) wherein “the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them” (Revelation 21:3). Christ, the Lamb of God, is also present (verse Revelation 21:22). The Holy Spirit, however, is again absent—another inexplicable oversight if this Spirit is the third person of a triune God.

Clearly, the Holy Spirit, from the evidence found in the Bible, is not a person in a supposed Trinity. Regrettably, the unbiblical doctrine of the Trinity obscures the scriptural teaching that God is a family—a family which, as we will see, is our ultimate destiny!

Source(s):

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/who-is-god/the-holy-spirit-is-not-a-person

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

To support the concept of a triune god, and the Holy Spirit being a person ... I once cut a worm into three parts ... that he might have friends.

[Space Merchant]

On 4/29/2018 at 11:08 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

To support the concept of a triune god, and the Holy Spirit being a person ... I once cut a worm into three parts ... that he might have friends.

The thing here is that the Holy Spirit itself, people tend to make it as to what they want it to be vs. that of what the people says about what it is and what it can do pertaining to what it says about such in the scriptures, the same as they ignore who the Father is and or claiming that Jesus is the Father with a high disregard of what Jesus read, saw and did as a child into his teenager years, let alone what happen during his infancy, as to where Joseph and Mary had brought the young baby Jesus after day of circumcision.

In the end there is a huge line between those who know what the bible teaches, while on the other side, there are those who think they know what the bible teaches and decides to put what they know what is taught, thus making an accursed teaching, which Galatians 1:1-11 does not shy away from when it comes to speaking about things outside of what is taught.

[Cos]

SCRIPTURE shows that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and when the Bible mentions the Holy Spirit we Christians do acknowledge those passages as referring to the third Person of the Trinity which some claim as absurdities.

 

But if the Holy Spirit is not a person but a designation for some sort of power then we would not find passages where both the Spirit and an influence are co-coordinately named.

 

For example the words in Acts 10:38 "anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power" makes the idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere "force" or "attribute" as redundant,  "anointing with power and power"(?). That is an absurdity!

 

Naturally we read in John 16:13-14 “…he {the third Person of the Trinity} will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come…he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you.”

 

Throughout this passages from John’s Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak).

 

It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and to a thing.

 

John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)

 

John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT)

 

In the dialogue in the upstairs room, Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person.

 

Notice John15:26–27;

 

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…”

 

Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. <><

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, Cos said:

SCRIPTURE shows that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and when the Bible mentions the Holy Spirit we Christians do acknowledge those passages as referring to the third Person of the Trinity which some claim as absurdities.

Technically, it is, for the quote with said absurdities are not of my own, but they are address to be as an example, nothing more, nothing less.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

But if the Holy Spirit is not a person but a designation for some sort of power then we would not find passages where both the Spirit and an influence are co-coordinately named.

Have you not read any verse regarding the Holy Spirit?

3 hours ago, Cos said:

For example the words in Acts 10:38 "anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power" makes the idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere "force" or "attribute" as redundant,  "anointing with power and power"(?). That is an absurdity!

Acts 10:38 - how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit[A] and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him[C].

Well if you consider it as mere, the cross references would shock you, and we clearly see here The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power, obviously, not a person. We know more information about Acts 10:38 from the cross-references, for we will focus on the one regarding the Holy Spirit itself.

Cross-References

[A]

Isaiah 11:2 - And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

Isaiah 42:1 - Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.

Isaiah 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Matthew 3:16 - And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;

The cross-reference for Holy Spirit in Acts 10:38 are spot on with what it is pointing to vs that of man's understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. We see in the first verse that the Holy Spirit that comes from God, our Father, each point this verse makes points back to Jesus, for instance, regarding Wisdom, Luke 2:52. Isaiah was not talking about a literal person of which you claim, for if he had, it would have been mentioned that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person, unfortunately - for you, no such thing was mentioned in Isaiah.

The same thing goes on with the other verses in Isaiah, and once again, a prophet, who is of Shaliach Principle, has never mentioned the Holy Spirit to be a person and or like a man, a person being etc. They speak of such of God's Angels, but never have they mentioned the Holy Spirit itself as a person.

In the Greek New Testament, pertaining to the verse mentioned above, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove, it didn't come as a man or a person who came from the sky to see Jesus right after he was baptized, and I am sure John the Baptizer didn't see a man or a person descend upon his relative.

Doves are considered both a sacred use and having a symbolic meaning. Doves symbolized innocence and purity, as seen in Matthew 10:16, I don't need to explain offerings and the actions of Noah here because it is obvious. Regarding Jesus’ baptism, his God may have used the dove to call attention to the role of Lord Jesus - For Jesus' role was the Messiah (The Christ), the pure and sinless Son of God who would sacrifice his life for all mankind and lay-down the very foundation for a period of rest and peace during his rule as King -  Messianic King. God’s spirit (The Holy Spirit), descended upon Jesus at his baptism, like a dove, for  last I recall and I will say it again, we clearly see here no man or person has descended out of heaven during this passage, not to Jesus, not to John, and God who is witness of the event for he had a role to play.

So your so called exegesis for Acts 10:38 does not help you here, I do not see how you are denying the facts, for it was presented to you a couple of months ago.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

Naturally we read in John 16:13-14 “…he {the third Person of the Trinity} will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come…he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you.”

What kills it for you is what the bible teaches and what the Greek language is all about when applied to the Greek New Testament, in a sense David (truth) just took down your Goliath (untruth).

The Holy Spirit itself is God's very own Spirit, hence what Jesus said about his Father in John 4:24, that God is a Spirit, whatever the Holy Spirit does, God is the one taking action, hence how Mary was able to have the baby Jesus by means of the Spirit, how Zechariah was able to speak again after being imbued with the Holy Spirit, how Elijah was able to be filled with courage by means of God's Spirit, for it is evident as to what and where the Spirit of Elijah originated from, etc. No bible account ever mentions the Holy Spirit coming as a literal person or a man to such people, and in some cases, if a literal person were to do some things in regarding some passages in the bible, it would be seen as rather.... Awkward and odd. In addition, tot he 3,000 people of the church as seen in Acts 2 (Remember this from before? Of course not), a person didn't show up, rather, people present were bestowed with the Holy Spirit (The promise from the Father of which Jesus spoke of had been poured out) as well as being baptized, and during that time, John the Baptizer himself was also present when this all went down, just like how he was with Jesus before he died/risen, The Holy Spirit didn't come as a person to no one, for if it had, the passage would have stated it - but it didn't, so you are adding to the scripture and going against Deuteronomy 4:2 and John 10:35.

John 16 13-14 is the same case with John 14:26, or in this case (John 14 and 16). The only reason the Spirit is called "HE" masculine is because in the Greek New Testament: Holy Spirit is Pneuma, which is a neuter noun (http://biblehub.com/greek/4151.htm). This means that the Holy Spirit has no gender whatsoever, but one key factor changes that, anything that modifies the neuter noun will pretty much specific what the neuter would be, that is, if you respect how things are done regarding the Greek Strong's. The Holy Spirit is refereed to as a HE because in John 14:16 the Spirit was given the title comforter (parakletos), which is Masculine, a noun (http://biblehub.com/greek/3875.htm). Therefore, this is the only reason why the Spirit was called HE in certain passages. Since the Holy Spirit is of God, it is usually refereed to as HE or HIM.

A side fact would be, in John 4:23-24, there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

Throughout this passages from JohnÂ’s Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak).

Again, you clearly do not know or understand how Greek works, mainly in the realm of Masculine, Feminine, and Neuter words and phrases and or person, places and or things. According to John, he knew how the language was spoken and written, clearly, you do not.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and to a thing.

Learn Greek, at least the basics.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)

John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT)

In the dialogue in the upstairs room, Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person.

I see you are using the 1984 NWT. But again, if you do not understand Greek, you will end up shooting yourself in the foot, what you missed is the very footnote that is on the bible of Jehovah's Witnesses, for they address the information clearly:

Quote from NWT footnote: that one: Both “that one” and “he” in verses 13 and 14 refer back to “the helper” mentioned at Joh 16:7. Jesus used “the helper” (which is in the masculine gender in Greek) as a personification of the holy spirit, an impersonal force, which is in the neuter gender in Greek.—See study note on Joh 14:16.

Footnote from NWT 1984: “That one,” masc., referring to “the helper,” masc., in vs 7.

Study Note Quote: helper: Or “comforter; encourager; advocate.” The word rendered “helper” (pa·ra?kle·tos) is used in the Bible to describe the roles of both the holy spirit (Joh 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7) and Jesus (1Jo 2:1). It could literally be rendered “one called to someone’s side” to give help. When Jesus spoke of the holy spirit, an impersonal force, as a helper and referred to this helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving’ (Joh 14:26; 15:26; 16:7-15), he used a figure of speech called personification, that is, referring to something impersonal or inanimate as if it were alive. In the Scriptures, it is not unusual for something that is not actually a person to be personified. Some examples are wisdom, death, sin, and undeserved kindness. (Mt 11:19; Lu 7:35; Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12; 7:8-11) It is obvious that not one of these things is an actual person. God’s spirit is often mentioned together with other impersonal forces or things, further supporting the fact that it is not a person. (Mt 3:11; Ac 6:3, 5; 13:52; 2Co 6:4-8; Eph 5:18) Some argue that the use of Greek masculine pronouns when referring to this “helper” shows that holy spirit is a person. (Joh 14:26) However, Greek grammar requires masculine pronouns when the activity of “the helper” is described, since the word for “helper” is in the masculine gender. (Joh 16:7, 8, 13, 14) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for “spirit” (pneu?ma) is used, neuter pronouns are used.—See study note on Joh 14:17.

Your assumption of those verses and about the Holy Spirit can easily sway those who do not know their Greek, but those who understand and read it, those who study it, will call you out by confuting. That being said, even beyond the information the Jehovah's Witnesses provide, it is enough to put your train on a full stop with your surface interpretations that ignore and disrespect the Greek Language, this isn't the first time you did this also.

From what I had seen before, you are clearly not a fan of Jehovah's Witnesses with an obvious disdain for them to show for it; why go about using their translation, why go that Old School with a 1984 edition though? Granted any translation will not help here you when Greek is applied... That is like hating on Muslims, but preaching from their Qu'ran in an attempt to speak of something you claim as true, makes absolutely no type of sense.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

Notice John15:26–27;

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…”

Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. <><

Once again, it is very cringy that you attempt to discuss on what the Holy Spirit is when you clearly do not know the very language that the New Testament derives from, which is, in a sense, very sad, for a Christian should know about Hebrew and Greek languages, at least the basics, but apparently that wasn't an elective for you. You really have to be honest, Cos, for instance, if a High School student can study Greek and know the differences in masculine, feminine and neuter and how something neuter can be modified, what is stopping you from learning the Greek language also.

From here on out, anything you say can easily be toppled like a Jenga Tower Set, literally.

You piece together some claims and odds interpretations, I, or anyone else will take a part from the tower, knowing that part is false, which results in anything said following over because nothing true is within that Jenga Tower - thus following down as the gravity pulls it down. You build with man made understanding, what you have build will fall with biblical facts, as well as the language the bible uses, Hebrew and or Greek... In this case, Greek.

I advise you to go read up some Greek (or Youtube/Google it even), than come back and speak about the Holy Spirit.

 

PS: Regarding Helper, here is the Greek Strong's, again, consider it homework, it is the same Strong's number as with what was stated above, I am sure you are well aware of Strong's because last time you used it to discuss something that was totally incorrect - http://biblehub.com/greek/3875.htm