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The Holy Spirit


Cos

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WOW!

Thank you Space Merchant for the best explanation and irrefutable proof I have ever read !

It's like at the end of the first Muppet Movie ..... it said it ALL.

.... and at the end of it, realizing that the audience was still there in the theater, reading the credits as they rolled by ... "Animal" (the Muppet, breaks the 4th wall, looks directly at the audience, and says ....

GO HOME!

GO HOME!

 

 

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Cos: What you have stated is OPINION.  You have proved NOTHING, except that you can type. Both God and Christ have a personal name ... what is the Holy Spirit's name .... Casper? If so,

The quote referenced above reads: "In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is identified as God’s power in action. Hence, an accurate translation of the Bible’s Hebrew text refers to God’s spirit as “God’s ac

Claims of irrationality have always been levelled against witnesses who have experienced Gods great gift. "And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to thos

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I will address some allegations.

 

Here is two claims; “The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power”.

 

The first claim is that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, the second is that the Holy Spirit is not power either.  But notice all you JW, the last time I checked the Watchtower website they say that the Holy Spirit is “God’s power”.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102006245

 

Then we jump into a bit about cross-reference, and I believe the Bible translation used in this case is the NWT, because none of the Bibles translation I looked up cite the verses used here, except the NWT, now if the NWT was used then one of the cross-reference, was missed, namely Heb. 1:9, and in reading it we can clearly understand why.

 

Remember the claims are “the Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power”, but instead we are told that the Holy Spirit is “God’s very own Spirit”, because “God is a Spirit”… then logically the Holy Spirit must be God.

 

Even though I totally agree that the Holy Spirit IS GOD, the Bible shows that there is a clear distinction within the Divine.

 

The claim continues, “there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship.”

 

I will contend that the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

 

The fact that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father (just as the Son is) can be seen from passages of Scripture were you can substitute the term "God" or "Father" in place of where the Holy Spirit is present, here are some examples;

 

Eph. 2:18, "For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit"; so if the above reckoning be true then this verse would mean, "access to the Father by one Father”.

 

And;

 

Matt. 28:19, “…baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” would mean, “…baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Father”.

 

Clearly the above claim that the Father is the Holy Spirit is an absurdity!

 

This is not an Arian teaching nor do I think it is a Unitarian teaching, but this is more in line with Sabellianism because this is a similar teaching of the Oneness group who also claim God the Father is the “Holy Spirit by nature”.

 

We then move on to the footnote quote from the NWT, but the claims made in the footnote are vastly different to the claim that “The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature”.

 

And as my understanding of Greek is questioned, I will briefly show how the footnote from the NWT is, I believe, completely wrong.

 

Firstly the assumption is made in the footnote that the Holy Spirit is a “force”, the reason for this assertion is because, they claim, “God’s spirit is often mentioned together with other impersonal forces or things…” And that supposedly supports why they say that the Holy Spirit is a power of some kind.

 

Now this claim does not hold any substance because the Bible regularly associates and connects persons with impersonal things.

 

Using the SAME reasoning employed by the NWT at Matthew 3:11 Ac 6:3, 5; 13:52; 2Co 6:4-8; Eph 5:18 we would have to conclude that because death is not a person in Rom 6:3 so Jesus is not a person because they are mentioned together?

 

Romans 6:3; “Don’t you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?”

 

Let’s take a look at the many times Jesus, a person, is associated with impersonal things; but these do not argue against HIS PERSONALITY.

 

Jesus refers to Himself as the vine (John 15:1), the door (John 10:17), bread (John 6:35) etc, because these terms are mentioned together with Jesus they do not cancel out His personality.

 

We see in Jeremiah 17:13 that Jehovah in general is identified as water.

 

Do these comparisons disprove the personality of Christ and Jehovah? I think not!

 

As I have briefly shown the argument the NWT footnote uses for their assertion that the Holy Spirit is a thing is not a legitimate reason because when you study the Scriptures you will notice that Persons are often mentioned together with impersonal things.

 

Their faulty premise is the reason that they say Jesus “used a figure of speech called personification” when referring to the Holy Spirit. But why would Jesus do that? In fact WHY would Jesus use the same terms to compare Himself and His disciples to “a force” figuratively?

 

That whole claim by the NWT is absurd for it would make no sense to do so.

 

Throughout this passages from John’s Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak).

 

It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and to a thing.

 

John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)

 

John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT)

 

In the dialogue in the upstairs room, Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person.

 

Notice John15:26–27;

 

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…”

 

Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a Person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. <><

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10 hours ago, Cos said:

the last time I checked the Watchtower website they say that the Holy Spirit is “God’s power”. 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102006245

The quote referenced above reads: "In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is identified as God’s power in action. Hence, an accurate translation of the Bible’s Hebrew text refers to God’s spirit as “God’s active force.” (Genesis 1:2) This concept is well supported throughout the Bible.—Micah 3:8; Luke 1:35;Acts 10:38."

Unfortunately, the inadequate and  bludgeoning reference to this quote in the opening remarks of the argument above displays a level of competency that calls into question the entire succeeding discussion. To enter into debate on the matters raised on the basis of the level of spiritual comprehension displayed in this opening gambit would be akin to a surgeon discussing the finer points of a heart transplant procedure with a meat butcher who prefers using a meat cleaver to a scalpel.

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12 hours ago, Cos said:

will address some allegations.

Here is two claims; “The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power”.

Indeed it is not a person. The Holy Spirit is indeed considered power, mainly if you take on the passages that give clear examples of how it empowered people in some way and or form and what it is capable of doing. For instance, Elijah was very low in spirit, but by means of the Holy Spirit be was bestowed courage to press on even further

All of Samson’s feats of strength are directly attributed to the Spirit coming upon him as seen in Judges 14:6, 19; 15:14.

  • (6) Then the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon him, and although he had nothing in his hand, he tore the lion in pieces as one tears a young goat. But he did not tell his father or his mother what he had done.
  • (19) Then the Spirit of the LORD came powerfully upon him. He went down to the town of Ashkelon, killed thirty men, took their belongings, and gave their clothing to the men who had solved his riddle. But Samson was furious about what had happened, and he went back home to live with his father and mother.
  • (14) When he came to Lehi, the Philistines came shouting to meet him. Then the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon him, and the ropes that were on his arms became as flax that has caught fire, and his bonds melted off his hands.

We know that it was not a person and or a being that came upon Samson on it's own and clearly we see Samson was give power to do the feats he was capable of doing, hence given power.

We know these because of 1 Kings 18:46

  • And the hand [Spirit and or Power] of the LORD [Yahweh/Jehovah] was on Elijah, and he gathered up his garment and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.

Elijah was fearful and his lost of courage for before he had the power of God's Spirit upon him until later on, we see his current state at the time after losing said courage, even wanting God to take his life away, make him as if he is no more, so to speak. But then God spoke to him, later on, helping Elijah out greatly.

Because of the Holy Spirit, Zechariah , who didn't believe a word that Gabriel had said, he had been silenced, but by means of the power of God, God's Holy Spirit, said Spirit enabled Zechariah to speak; his ability to speak had been restored and he is no longer a mute, Luke 1:67 (onward Zechariah speaking in such regarding prophecy)

  • And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying,

We are also aware that Mary had became pregnant by means of the Holy Spirit, enabling her to even birth Jesus to begin with, Luke 1:35

  • And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Later, much later on, Jesus himself, was said to be in full power of the Holy Spirit, Luke 4:14, for anyone who is familiar with Strong's will see a clear connection to the Holy Spirit and Power.

Lastly, we know God is a Spirit, based on what Jesus said in John 4:24 - God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.

And in the Genesis Act of Creation, we clearly see God using said Spirit, his power (his force), and His Spoken Word was the result of things being created and or causing to exist, for that is what the meaning of God's name even implies, "to exist and or cause to exist".

Psalms 33:6 and Isaiah 40:26 makes it obviously clear also.

For the power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God. It has appeared throughout Scripture many times and by whom great works of power are made manifest - clearly this cannot be a missed.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

The first claim is that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, the second is that the Holy Spirit is not power either.  But notice all you JW, the last time I checked the Watchtower website they say that the Holy Spirit is “God’s power”.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102006245

Even without the resources from the Jehovah's Witnesses' Watchtower, people clearly see that the Holy Spirit is indeed God's Spirit, his power, so to make a claim that targets a religious faith is rather weak and information outside, even the Greek Strong's can be used against you here.

Attempt becomes obsolete.

The Holy Spirit that comes from God the Father is consider to be an awesome and dynamic power of which we can clearly see in scripture. To ignore this only proves a hypocritical attitude of what the bible says.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Then we jump into a bit about cross-reference, and I believe the Bible translation used in this case is the NWT, because none of the Bibles translation I looked up cite the verses used here, except the NWT, now if the NWT was used then one of the cross-reference, was missed, namely Heb. 1:9, and in reading it we can clearly understand why.

You cannot make a claim of other bible translations unless you give an example and or the bible name itself. It would be a problem if the cross-reference(s) in question are incorrect, but this is not the case here, for the cross-reference we have for the ESV, even that of the NASB and several others are identical to the NWT, example would be for Hebrews 1:9 pointing to Psalms 45:6,7. So do not make a claim of something without positive fact, you do this one too many times.

Yes God is a Spirit and the Spirit of God that he exerts is the Holy Spirit, and no logically the Holy Spirit is not God. God uses said Spirit to do what he sees fit, but if we are to go with your logic, a man who makes apple pies, we should see the apple pie as a man also.

The scriptures in the bible makes it clear what the Holy Spirit can do, what is has enable some to do, what it has caused and where it comes from. For the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts, we become partakers of the divine nature since the Holy Spirit IS God's divine nature, not another person, not another being, but of God's nature, of which he uses to expert said power.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Even though I totally agree that the Holy Spirit IS GOD, the Bible shows that there is a clear distinction within the Divine.

Ok.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

The claim continues, “there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship.”

You mentioned cross-references before, yet you do not apply them to this verse.

God is a Spirit

  • 2 Corinthians 3:17 - Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
  • 1 Timothy 1:17 - To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
  • Hebrews 11:27 - By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.

Jesus spoke of his Father, who is His God, as being a Spirit, which is agreed.

Worship in Spirit and Truth

  • Romans 12:1 - I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

The reality is there are many Spirits (angels and demons being known as Spirits), but the Holy Spirit is but only One and it comes from God, nowhere in scripture does it address that the Holy Spirit is God, otherwise it would be mentioned, as well as the claim that some say about it being a person, with sheer ignorance of the Greek language.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

I will contend that the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

You are contradicting what you said:  Cos - I totally agree that the Holy Spirit IS GOD

12 hours ago, Cos said:

The fact that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father (just as the Son is) can be seen from passages of Scripture were you can substitute the term "God" or "Father" in place of where the Holy Spirit is present, here are some examples;

 

Eph. 2:18, "For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit"; so if the above reckoning be true then this verse would mean, "access to the Father by one Father”.

And;

Matt. 28:19, “…baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” would mean, “…baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Father”.

Clearly the above claim that the Father is the Holy Spirit is an absurdity!

No one can substitute something that is not according to the Strong's and or to the respects of the oldest and most reliable source. As for Ephesians 2:18, you clearly miss what Ephesians 2 is about by a very, very large margin.

Ephesians 2 speaks of the Grace of God through his Son, Jesus Christ. That "Him" in verse 18 is referring to Jesus. Early Christians, the Jews and Gentiles, believing in Jesus results in them having access to the one Spirit, The Holy Spirit, to the Father, the one true God, not to mention Jesus' role as the cornerstone and the very foundation of which the Church resides - Jesus being the head of the Church. Early on, we see what is said know how the early Christians, the Jews and the Gentiles, now being one in Christ, of how they understood who God is, who his Son is, and what role does the Holy Spirit have in which it enables them to do what they do.

It is the Holy Spirit itself that allows us to reach the Father, as if it is a bridge for us to even have access to God the Father if we take into account his grace by means of His Son.

As for Matthew 28:19, I already made mention of this elsewhere, would be another waste of time to post this one too when it is obvious.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

This is not an Arian teaching nor do I think it is a Unitarian teaching, but this is more in line with Sabellianism because this is a similar teaching of the Oneness group who also claim God the Father is the “Holy Spirit by nature”.

You may want to look in to the Christology of things a bit more regarding the Holy Spirit. Among such, there is and will always be those who are totally dishonest of what the Holy Spirit is and of its source of origin, and what it can do, some would see the Holy Spirit as a person and doing the most literal things, hence the remark about awkwardness in the scripture, knowing some groups who have the audacity to say such strikes shock in some people, hence why scriptural facts must be address to refute the dishonest claims.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

We then move on to the footnote quote from the NWT, but the claims made in the footnote are vastly different to the claim that “The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature”.

Ok. But you have to be very clear and concise onward from here, but what is seen is already evident.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

And as my understanding of Greek is questioned, I will briefly show how the footnote from the NWT is, I believe, completely wrong.

How are they wrong if masculine/feminine modifiers to a neutered noun and or adjective is applied? Are you serious???

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Firstly the assumption is made in the footnote that the Holy Spirit is a “force”, the reason for this assertion is because, they claim, “God’s spirit is often mentioned together with other impersonal forces or things…” And that supposedly supports why they say that the Holy Spirit is a power of some kind.

Your understanding of Greek came to question because you ignored the fact of masculine, feminine, and neuter words and how neutered words have another meaning by means of modification.

Regarding Active Force, in Genesis 1:2 in the NWT, regardless of the 1984 and or the revised, it is points to God's Spirit.

Christians who really take into consideration of what the bible says know that God’s Holy Spirit is identified as God’s power in action, and that his power is in work. They’re claim is regarding the Holy Spirit’s role as a “Helper” (parakletos) as seen in 14:16 in John, and seeing you mentioned this, you changed from the 1984 to the revised version of the NWT bible (would make much more sense to use either NWT and another bible, like the NIV or something), you can be mixing both to reap the same results, even though it won’t help you here, as for impersonal forces and or things, they actually have support on this as seen in Matthew 13:11, Acts 6:3,5, 13:52, 2 Corinthians 6:4-8, and Ephesians 5:18.

The support for Impersonal Force and or Things according to Jehovah's Witnesses/Watchtower

  • Matthew 13:11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
  •  Acts 6:3,5, 13:52 - (3) Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. (5) And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. (5)2 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
  • 2 Corinthians 6:4-8 - (4) but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, (5) beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; 6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love; (7) by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; (8) through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;
  • Ephesians 5:18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

Once again, your Greek will come into question if you do not know how “Helper” is modified – for there is no way to prove and or counter how said words are modified when used, not only it is neigh impossible, but clearly it cannot be done, pertaining to what you posted about the Holy Spirit being a person when referred as a He and or a Him, again, clear ignorance of the Greek language, and it is no different when it comes to “Helper”, perhaps “Comforter” as well.

Ironically, only Trinitarians and a few Oneness believers have an issue with Greek language modifiers, which is the case with people like Jay Smith, James White, David Wood and a selective other few. 

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Using the SAME reasoning employed by the NWT at Matthew 3:11 Ac 6:3, 5; 13:52; 2Co 6:4-8; Eph 5:18 we would have to conclude that because death is not a person in Rom 6:3 so Jesus is not a person because they are mentioned together?

Same Reasoning or Masculine/Feminine/Neuter forms and modifications? You are mixing two things together to conjure up something that do not make sense - in this sense, mixing Ketchup with Ice Cream at this point, 2 different things, obviously, that clearly o not go with each other.

In this case your reasoning vs that of the Greek Language and forms of use.

Anyways, I do not know if you are doing that on purpose or that your brain has just gone blank. Romans 6:3 is referring to the death of Jesus as well as baptism (His baptism, His death), the cross-references is as clear as day, Mark 10:38, 39 and 1 Corinthians 15:29, which does not shy away from how John the Baptism sees Baptism regarding crossing from death to life, pertaining to the history of the Baptism. Jesus is indeed a person, the very man God has sent to roam this earth to teach, the very man put to death by the hands of the Jews, but raised up out of death by God his Father, the very man who acknowledged in Luke 24 and Acts 1 of what his followers are to expect, and so on. So I am not sure how you are going to fit an outlandish based logic for Romans 6:3 when the scriptures, and cross-references, makes it crystal clear, it can’t be missed unless one refuses it and or is totally ignorant.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Romans 6:3; “Don’t you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?”

Addressed right above this response.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Let’s take a look at the many times Jesus, a person, is associated with impersonal things; but these do not argue against HIS PERSONALITY.

So I guess now we are moving from what is what the Holy Spirit is really, to literal things, onward into personality.

Other than that, the Origin of Baptism is clearly not known to you. Regardless, Romans 6:3 and whatever points to it is very clear and concise.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Jesus refers to Himself as the vine (John 15:1), the door (John 10:17), bread (John 6:35) etc, because these terms are mentioned together with Jesus they do not cancel out His personality.

Ok. But clearly we derive from the discussion of the Holy Spirit. “The Door” is not mentioned in John 10:17, it is mentioned in John 10:7:

verse 7 - So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

verse 17 - For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

Verse 7 it points to what Jesus addressed in John 14:6, hence being One in Christ, hence having the Spirit in order to access the Father. John 6:35 is not more so of a personality, it is Jesus informing us of what him being the bread of life implies, this is why it connects so well with John 4:14, 7:37 and Revelations 22:17. As for John 15, we see why Jesus refers to himself as the vine (allegory) and that he refer to his God, who is his Father, as the cultivator.

Jesus is speaking in a illustrative sense, in addition, it is considered a farewell discourse of Jesus Christ (chapters 15 to 17 in the gospel of John), for this passage has been the influence of Christian iconography, it is that great and awe inspiring.

I must say anything pertaining to the like is indeed beautiful regarding what Lord Jesus Christ had said in those passages.

After what Jesus had said (I am the True Vine), he goes on to speak about The Hatred of the World.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

We see in Jeremiah 17:13 that Jehovah in general is identified as water.

Yahweh/Jehovah, the source of “living water”, it is said of him as such, that does not make it so he is literally identified as water. This also cross-references to Jeremiah 2:13 and Revelations 22:1.

But I guess by man’s understanding we are to believe that God the Father is not literally water, but also a literal rock also? I think not. If anyone is honest, they can see why God is called as such and why such actually is a reference to. God is the Rock of Salvation, for he protects and conceals his people. God is the source of living water because he preserves his people and has the ability to take those out of the pangs of death, as seen in the Greek New Testament regarding Jesus, who God has raised.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Do these comparisons disprove the personality of Christ and Jehovah? I think not!

You make want to do further bible study and or research on the matter.

For if I call myself a bumble bee that gathers honey, does not mean I am a literal bumble bee, but like that of the insect, I am doing the work, and in doing so I receive such that allows me to life, currency (honey). For like a bumble bee, they take send honey back to their place of dwelling, in a sense, the currency received is taken back to your dwelling and is used to sustain yourself, and or your family, keeping a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and food on the table.

Not the best example, but it is evident of what I am getting at here.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

As I have briefly shown the argument the NWT footnote uses for their assertion that the Holy Spirit is a thing is not a legitimate reason because when you study the Scriptures you will notice that Persons are often mentioned together with impersonal things.

As well as anything modified when the Greek Language is used, so it is not an assertion of the Watchtower, perhaps, once again, if you took the time to study the Greek language as I have, you would see that for yourself. The Footnote is a direct reference to “Helper” as seen in the verse in question, the very footnote points to that verse and clearly we see the modifier, regardless of what bible translation you use, the Greek modifier for a neuter word is there.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Their faulty premise is the reason that they say Jesus “used a figure of speech called personification” when referring to the Holy Spirit. But why would Jesus do that? In fact WHY would Jesus use the same terms to compare Himself and His disciples to “a force” figuratively?

Perhaps because the neutered word has been modified, pertaining to the Greek language whereas

A modified neutered word can be modded to a masculine and or a feminine (He, She, Him, Her, etc.)

It is not a claim made by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, in fact, this has been known for decades, even beyond the very existence of the Watchtower itself.

So to assume such about the NWT, you are pretty much claiming that everyone else is in the wrong for seeing (a) modified neutered word(s), that is silly on your part.

Again, Learn Your Greek.

For it is already established why Jesus said what he said and why such, the helper, is referred as such later on.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

That whole claim by the NWT is absurd for it would make no sense to do so.

It makes no sense if you clearly do not know how the Greek Language is spoken and or applied in terms of Scripture, something you seem to be lacking.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Throughout this passages from John’s Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak).

Because, for like the 5th time (possibly more for this has been addressed in nearly everything you posted) the reason this is so is because the neutered word has been modified, it would seem that you are not just doing such on purpose – but being totally ignorant of the Greek language itself.

A neutered IT can be referred to a HE or a SHE if modified. Examples would be:

  • Neuter to Feminine: Jennifer says the Sky is beautiful, saying SHE is blue just like the Ocean, and she (Jennifer) sees the planes flying about in HER. One day Jennifer will have to take her plane and fly in HER skies.
  • Neuter to Masculine: Bob says the Sky is beautiful, saying HE is blue just like the Ocean, and he (Bob) sees the planes flying about in HIM. One day Bob will have to take his plane and fly in HIS skies.
  • Neuter (Not modified):  The Individual says the Sky is beautiful, saying IT is blue just like the Ocean, and (gender is unknown could be he/she or simply not mentioned) sees the planes flying about in the SKY. One day The individual will have to take a (gender is unknown) plane and fly in THY SKY.

At times the modifier could be reflecting that of who is speaking, so we can get something

When a neuter is modified, it changes the meaning of something or a place entirely, it does not indicate one is talking about a literal person

Common Greek Sense.

In fact all languages have some sort of modifier in them, just like we have 2 sexes, male and female, this applies to language as well, we know the sex of a noun and or adjective if the person who speaks it is either male or female, at times, the predominant is usually male, mainly in terms of who the writer is, for we know the writer of the gospel of John is John, not Janet (a joke).

Let's have an example

We know that John 14:26 says this:

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Let's say if it was not Jesus, but Mary Speaking:

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, SHE will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Another example using John 15:26–27:

Original:

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, HE will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

If Jesus and Mary's roles were in reverse:

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, SHE will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

Now we know why the Helper is refereed to a HE is because Jesus, who is of course a male, is speaking from the very beginning of this passage. If it was, like in our example, Mary speaking, the Helper would be refereed to as a SHE. If no speaker is mentioned, it would be mentioned as either a HE or an IT, since A, we know neutered words that are no modified has no gender and B, bible writers tend to place a masculine gender in such a case. An example to similar to that above:

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in Jesus' name, IT will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that Jesus have said to you.

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom Jesus will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, IT will bear witness about Jesus. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Jesus from the beginning.

The verses would end up differently should the writer kept it neutered and not modified. But again, these are just examples.

That is what I have been getting at her since the last trick you pulled elsewhere on the forums.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and to a thing.

It is not strange unless you know what and how the Greek Language is used, especially during that time and era. Modern Greek still holds respect to the Language compared to its Koine Greek counterpart of ancient times.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)

John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT)

Total ignorance of what is addressed before.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

In the dialogue in the upstairs room, Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person.

Goodness man, a neutered word can be modified…

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Notice John15:26–27;

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…”

Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a Person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. <><

Again, a neutered word can be modified. We clearly see “Helper” here and who is speaking about the Helper. Jesus speaks of the Helper, therefore, the neutered word is modified to HE/HIM. Example, if it were Mary speaking about the “Helper” the neutered word would be modified to SHE/HER, if no one is making a reference, the “Helper” will remain has an unmodified word, remains neutered, no connection to masculine or feminine at all, thus rendered as is or IT.

Learn your Greek, learn how a word is modified because clearly you do not know anything pertaining to the language itself.

You stated that your knowledge of the Greek Language is called into question, this is exactly why. We also see the hypocrisy of trying to target an NWT translations (you are mixing both translations by the way) when outside of the NWT itself, regarding the Greek Language it will show you and say the same thing, I already posted said examples, of which you clearly ignored and still assert what your own interpretations are over what the bible entails, as well as what the Greek Language entails.

Also the cross-references will also be a major factor here, that disproves a portion of what you have already made mention of.

Clearly you no knowing about Masculine/Feminine and Neuter forms pertaining to the Greek Language. And you are jumping back and forth from 1984 to 2013 in terms of Translation, I stick solely to the ESV, I do not jump back and forth through translations unless I have to point something out as to why something is.

You really have to do the research more, you did the same thing with proskeneos, you do the same regarding Hebrew Language, and now we are back to Greek again, the fun never stops, does it?

Your claims are rather bleak, hence I speak, and say and say again, Learn your Greek because from what others and I myself is seeing from you, it is rather weak.

 

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The Scriptures (not youtube or some movie) teach that there are three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and these three Persons are God.

 

The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person to the Father. Some will try and identify the Holy Spirit as the Father but when shown how absurd that is return to that old misused excuse identifying the Holy Spirit as “his power” which is just as absurd, see Acts 10:38 which would read “"anointing with power and power".

 

What about the Greek used by Jesus in the up-stairs room of the Gospel of John with relation to the Holy Spirit. Does this verify that the Holy Spirit is not a person as some claim?

 

John 14:16; 15:26: “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you ANOTHER Helper….When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.…”

 

“First there are two words in the Greek language for the English word “another”. The first word is “heteros” (Greek ἕτερον), which means “another of a different kind.” The other Greek word “allos” (Greek ἄλλον) means “another of the same kind.” See Robinsons Word Pictures of the New Testament and Vincent’s Word Studies etc.

 

It is this second word “allos” that is used in John 14:16. So Jesus is saying that He will ask the Father to send another Helper of the same kind as Himself.

 

Jesus could have used ἕτερον but instead used ἄλλον which is very significant considering what He goes on to say about the Holy Spirit.

 

In Greek, nouns can be masculine, feminine or neuter and pronouns referring to these nouns are (in most cases, not always) masculine, feminine or neuter. The Greek word for demon is neuter as is the Greek word for child. And we know that demons and children are personal beings. Yet, the Greek text uses neuter personal pronouns to refer to them.

 

We know that the noun pneuma is neuter. As such, the pronouns referring to pneuma are also neuter. Point of fact, pneuma is referred to with autos, a neuter pronoun, in John 4:24:

 

“God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him [Greek autos] must worship with spirit and truth.” (NWT).

 

One certainly wouldn’t argue that God isn’t a Person simply because, following the use of proper grammar, the pronoun referring to Him is neuter, would you?

 

Likewise it would be premature on this basis to argue that the use of neuter pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit demand, as some claim, that the Holy Spirit in not a person.

 

There is only one compelling reason to change from the neuter to the masculine pronoun and that is if the main subject in question is a person.

 

In the dialogue in the upstairs room, does Jesus compare the Holy Spirit to Himself as a Person?  Yes He does:

 

John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)

 

John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.”

 

In the dialogue Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one Person to another. It would make no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit were not a person, but some just can’t see this fact.

 

Jesus introduces “another Parakletos” and in the context “another Parakletos” is the explanatory designation for the main and dominant subject, the Holy Spirit.

 

Henry Alford says that "the emphatic use of the pronoun [ekeinos]" is used "to identify the chief subject of the sentence" (Commentary on The Greek Testament).

 

The International Critical Commentary on the New Testament says that, "κενος calls special attention to the Spirit as the subject of the sentence" and that "the repeated application of κενος to the Spirit in these chapters (16:8, 13, 14; 14:26) shows that for John τ πνεμα τς ληθείας meant more than a mere tendency or influence."

 

Here is a simple question; "another Parakletos" refers to…?

 

Its reasons like this that have the majority of scholars disagreeing with the NWT claim, and why the famous Greek grammarian A.T. Robertson argues that John, “is insisting on the personality of the Holy Spirit when the grammatical gender so easily called for ἐκεῖνος” (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, 708-9)

 

Vine’s Dictionary comments on the masculine pronouns applied to the Holy Spirit in John: “The personality of the Spirit is emphasized at the expense of strict grammatical procedure in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:8, 13, 14, where the emphatic pronoun ekeinos, “He,” is used of Him in the masculine, whereas the noun pneuma is neuter in Greek...”

 

W. D. Mounce also argues that in John’s Gospel when Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as the Parakletos that the grammatically masculine form of the Greek pronoun autos is used, but when Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as Spirit, the masculine form of the demonstrative pronoun ekeinos is used, and that this “grammatical construction indicated the authors intent to convey the personhood of the Holy Spirit” (W. D. Mounce The Morphology of Biblical Greek page 240-242)

 

Charles Hodge explains, “The first argument for the personality of the Holy Spirit is derived from the use of the personal pronouns in relation to Him…. Our Lord says (John xv. 26), “When the Comforter (ὁ παράκλητος) is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth (τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας) which (ὅ) proceedeth from the Father, He (ἐκεῖνος) shall testify of me.” The use of the masculine pronoun He instead of it, shows that the Spirit is a person. It may indeed be said that as παράκλητος is masculine, the pronoun referring to it must of course be in the same gender. But as the explanatory words τὸ πνεῦμα intervene, to which the neuter ὅ refers, the following pronoun would naturally be in the neuter, if the subject spoken of, the πνεῦμα, were not a person. In the following chapter (John xvi. 13, 14) there is no ground for this objection. It is there said, “When He (ἐκεῖνος), the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak, and He will show you things to come. He shall glorify me (ἐκεῖνος ἐμὲ δοξάσει): for He shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.” Here there is no possibility of accounting for the use of the personal pronoun He (ἐκεῖνος) on any other ground than the personality of the Spirit.” (Charles Hodges, Systematic Theology, Volume 1, Chapter VIII)

 

Donald Guthrie puts it like this; “The fact that Jesus spoke of another Paraclete shows that the Paraclete must be as personal as Jesus himself. These considerations completely override the neuter gender of the noun pneuma in Greek. Moreover, they are in full agreement with the striking use of the masculine pronoun (ekeinos) of the Spirit in John 16:13 (placed immediately before pneuma) which underlines the personal characteristic of the Spirit. By no stretch of imagination can the teaching in these Paraclete sayings be made to refer to [an] impersonal force.” (New Testament Theology, page 531.)

 

Really, in this sense there is not much to argue about here.  Consider, even if the masculine pronoun is due to the preceding noun "Parakletos", the Parakletos is 1) referred to and described as a Person, and 2) is clearly identified as the Spirit (i.e. Parakletos is only an alternative, descriptive name).   So either way the Spirit is shown to be a Person since the Parakletos is identified as a person!

 

Also it is of note to consider the writings of the early church, they wrote in Greek and ascribed personal pronouns to the Holy Spirit.

 

Justin Martyr writes, “...use with simplicity the words and expressions which offer themselves, and declare to you whatever the Holy Ghost, WHO descended upon them, chose to teach through them to those who are desirous to learn the true religion.” (Justin’s Hortatory Address to the Greeks, Chapter 35).

 

Ignatius (Ad 35-107), who was a disciple of the apostle John, he writes “But the Holy Spirit does not speak his own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that he received from the Father.? (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 9).

 

Irenaeus writes “neither do we receive another Holy Spirit, besides Him who is with us, and who cries, “Abba, Father;” (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 4, chapter 9).

 

We can see that the early Greek speaking church had no problem ascribing personal pronouns to the neuter when it comes to the person of the Holy Spirit.

 

I have kept this brief, for an extended discussion on the above see the following; B. F. Westcott The Gospel According to St. John; A. H. Strong Systematic Theology; H. C. G Moule Veni Creator; E. W. Bullinger Figures of Speech Used in the Bible; R. A. Torrey What the Bible Teaches; D. A. Carson The Gospel According to John.

 

On a side note with any discussion of this nature we need to look at another related text where the Holy Spirit applies the first  person possessive pronoun “me” to Himself in Acts 13:2; “…the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for ME (Greek moi) Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." <><

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5 hours ago, tromboneck said:

like you? pedro pistola

It is more of a philosophical thing with me.

Philosophically, as well as in real life, (which if your philosophy is based on reality, are the same ...), I try never to "bring a knife to a gun fight".

Space Merchant made these points quite well in discussing the Holy Spirit.

An essential "weapon" to have is a knowledge and understanding of the Greek language used at the time .... and to understand it correctly.

As grass understands that it is meant to be eaten by cows and other animals ... grass Groks.

So should we.

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On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

The Scriptures (not youtube or some movie) teach that there are three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and these three Persons are God.

Incorrect, nowhere in the scriptures the Holy Spirit is described as a Person and or Distinct. There is a reason why there some of us actually study this stuff vs those who do not.

  • There is One True God, Yahweh/Jehovah
  • There is One Only-Begotten Son who is the Christ, Yeshua/Jesus.
  • There is One Spirit, The Holy Spirit.

One God, One Son, One Spirit, nowhere in scripture all 3 is depicted as God and or 3 in 1.

echad is echad, simply one and the Shema Yisrael that is still practiced today disproves this 3 in 1 persons doctrine.

God is a Spirit, and is described as a Person. God is not a man/not like a man nor is he a son of man or thinks like any man who dwells the earth and God is incorruptible/immortal, cannot die and or feel/succumb to death.

  • Numbers 23:19 - God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
  • 1 Samuel 15:29 - And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”

The Son is the Son of God, The Son of Man, and his name is Jesus. He is a born Jew, born of a woman, born into the law. Like every other Jew, he learns about His God and His Father of the Old Testament, hence the Shema Yisrael, which all Jews to this day know, even Muslims, the Samaritans, and some Christians.

The Holy Spirit is but One Spirit, distinct from other Spirits, hence "the". People can be filled with it, given it, etc. The Holy Spirit is known to be of God's Spirit, for it is his breathe, his hand, even his power. The Holy Spirit clearly is not a person, otherwise people like Stephen would have acknowledged that. The Holy Spirit is also known as one of God's natures, just like his incorruptibility.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person to the Father. Some will try and identify the Holy Spirit as the Father but when shown how absurd that is return to that old misused excuse identifying the Holy Spirit as “his power” which is just as absurd, see Acts 10:38 which would read “"anointing with power and power".

The Holy Spirit is indeed God's Power, I do not see why the denial, for there is only 2 camps on this matter.

  • A: Holy Spirit (Breathe, Hand of God, Finger, Power, Nature) - Those who believe that one of God's nature is the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit is not a person, it is, as what the bible descibres the Spirit is to be and what it can do, example, causing Mary to become pregnant to even give birth to Jesus. Such ones believe that God can bestow the spirit on people, just as he did for Jesus and many others, and such one respects the Greek Lanugage pretaining to what the Holy Spirit is about.
  •  B: Holy Spirit (As a Person) - Only those who believe in a Triune God, as in God in 3 persons. They believe The Father is God, so is Jesus and The Spirit. They believe that the bible speaks of the Spirit as a person, disregarding the Greek Language, example, Jay Smith, a Trinitarian Christain, believes the Holy Spirit is indeed a person, said person played a role in empowering people, Mary's preganacy, and a list of other things, clearly the so called personhood is incorrect when one realizes the Greek Language gender forms.

We are aware of which camp you fall under. There are only 2 main camps here, mainly in the world of Christendom.

Acts 10:38 has cross-references, really strong ones. Also making this response "anointing with power and power" is pretty weak, if you really knew what the Holy Spirit is capable of and what it has been used to do, etc. it would be clear to you.

God was with him, Jesus, especially during his ministry and the like via said power.

FACT: Many scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as the power of God (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8). Apostle Paul told Timothy that it is the spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind in 2 Timothy 1:7 (added emphasis).

  • 2 Timothy 1:7  - for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

FACT: In the gospel of Luke, Luke 4:14, it records that Jesus Christ began His ministry in the power of the SpiritLuke 1:35 identifies the Holy Spirit with the power that is of the Highest. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you.

Acts 1:8 - But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

FACT: Simon Peter relates how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, [and Jesus] went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him, as seen in Acts 10:38 (pertaining to the above). The Holy Spirit is here associated with the power by which God was with Himthe power through which Jesus Christ performed mighty miracles during His earthly, physical ministry. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God's power actively working in His servants. The apostle Paul's desire was that the members of the Church in Rome would abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit, in the same way that Jesus Christ had worked through him in mighty signs and wonders , by the power of the Spirit of God (Romans 15:13, 19).

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

What about the Greek used by Jesus in the up-stairs room of the Gospel of John with relation to the Holy Spirit. Does this verify that the Holy Spirit is not a person as some claim?

John 14:16; 15:26: “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you ANOTHER Helper….When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.…”

The Helper that is to replace Jesus is the Holy Spirit, but these verses does not prove The Holy Spirit is a Person because clearly, again using Greek Language here Jesus speaking automatically makes the Greek Word Masculine, this has been addressed time and time again and this just shows you have a total disrespect to the Greek Language, you do not even bother to try and understand Masculine, Feminine and neuter forms.

Clear ignorance.

LEARN YOUR GREEK:

Because clearly, you lack knowledge of such and it shows.

It is stuff like this that not only cause Christianity to decline, but makes genuine Christians look bad due to the error and those misleading others with total dishonesty.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

“First there are two words in the Greek language for the English word “another”. The first word is “heteros” (Greek ἕτερον), which means “another of a different kind.” The other Greek word “allos” (Greek ἄλλον) means “another of the same kind.” See Robinsons Word Pictures of the New Testament and Vincent’s Word Studies etc.

It is this second word “allos” that is used in John 14:16. So Jesus is saying that He will ask the Father to send another Helper of the same kind as Himself.

Jesus could have used ἕτερον but instead used ἄλλον which is very significant considering what He goes on to say about the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is simply referring to the Helper, that is, The Holy Spirit, Greek Language forms is in play here in the scriptures, and again, nowhere in scripture is the Holy Spirit is depicted and or seen as a Person. You uttered cross-references, yet you do not bother to look them up, the irony is you are using the NWT when the cross-references in that bible is literally in your face in forms of little footnote letters...

allos has nothing to do with the gender/neuter forms in Greek Language here, again shows how you are not well educated on the the Greek Language.

Look at the Strong's, in fact, anyone can click on this link and see for themselves.

Source: http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/14-16.htm

Last I recall, Jesus was not the writer of the gospel of Acts, John has addressed what the Christ had said.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

In Greek, nouns can be masculine, feminine or neuter and pronouns referring to these nouns are (in most cases, not always) masculine, feminine or neuter. The Greek word for demon is neuter as is the Greek word for child. And we know that demons and children are personal beings. Yet, the Greek text uses neuter personal pronouns to refer to them.

This has been mentioned by me already, but you ignored it, thus contradicting your claim of the Holy Spirit being a person if Greek Language forms is in application here.

Demon is a masculine noun: http://biblehub.com/greek/1142.htm do not get it mixed up with the neutered counterpart http://biblehub.com/greek/1140.htm, as for child, there are several neutered forms, be specific on which one you are referring to.

There is clearly a difference, singular and plural.

A child is a being, human being just as a man and or a woman, so is a demon, a fallen son of the Most High, former angel (Spirit Being).

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

We know that the noun pneuma is neuter. As such, the pronouns referring to pneuma are also neuter. Point of fact, pneuma is referred to with autos, a neuter pronoun, in John 4:24:

“God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him [Greek autos] must worship with spirit and truth.” (NWT).

One certainly wouldn’t argue that God isn’t a Person simply because, following the use of proper grammar, the pronoun referring to Him is neuter, would you?

Likewise it would be premature on this basis to argue that the use of neuter pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit demand, as some claim, that the Holy Spirit in not a person.

You do realize what God is regarding the Greek Language form?

God is spoken of to be a person as well as a spirit from early on in the Hebrew Text into the Greek. As well as being a person is is spoken of as being a Spirit, as well as a Creator, Most High, etc. How in the WORLD did you miss that one!?

He is spoken of by both sexes, by male and female individuals int he scripture, examples like Jesus, David, Hagar, Rehab, etc.even by Spirit beings, both the good an the bad.

As for the Holy Spirit, it is not on a premature basis, it is the GREEK LANGUAGE and HOW GENDER AND NEUTER FORMS ARE USED. Explained time and time again, but it goes through one ear, and out the other, even before gender/neuter form were mentioned, you automatically assume the Holy Spirit to be a literal person, you are jumping way too many wagons and mixing up the information to only fit your own benefit vs. that of the scriptures and a respect to the Greek Language, of which you are being dishonest and disrespecting totally.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

In the dialogue in the upstairs room, does Jesus compare the Holy Spirit to Himself as a Person?  Yes He does:

You can't seem to make up your mind can you?

As for the other 2 verses

John 12:49 is very direct to 4 verses:

  • John 5:19 - So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
  • John 8:38 - I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
  • John 14:10 - Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
  • John 5:30 - “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Jesus by himself CANNOT do anything, but he can do such things because the Father is not only in union/one with him, but the Father is with Jesus Christ and that His Spirit is upon His Son. Clearly he is not talking about the Holy Spirit, in these cases, as well as John 12:49, he is referring to his Father, even in chapter 12 of John God is speaking to Jesus very early if we start from verse 27 onward, mind you, Jesus was both fearful and troubled for the hour has come.

John 16:13 neutered words were modified because Jesus (a male/man) is the one speaking, hence why the Holy Spirit is referred to as a HE/HIM, what did you not understand from the other post?

You do not know Greek yet you say this, but attempt to speak about Gender/neuter forms in Greek, let alone saying such about God when the Strong's make it clear God is both a Person, a Spirit, a Creator and is mention by both sexes in the bible? Come on now, you can't be this daft and expect no one to point this out, Cos.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

In the dialogue Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one Person to another. It would make no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit were not a person, but some just can’t see this fact.

Incorrect. Also pertaining to John 16, it is made clear that it speaks of the The Work of the Holy Spirit, never has it address this One Spirit as a person, we only know it is called a HE/HIM because the speaker is Jesus Christ. The Spirit cannot do anything for God is the one who sends, controls, etc regarding the Spirit.

The fact of the matter is, you do not know gender/neuter forms in Greek, not even a molecule of knowledge regarding such. I provided links above so you better understand what is being addressed here.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

Its reasons like this that have the majority of scholars disagreeing with the NWT claim, and why the famous Greek grammarian A.T. Robertson argues that John, “is insisting on the personality of the Holy Spirit when the grammatical gender so easily called for ἐκεῖνος” (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, 708-9)

You do realize JW opponents, mostly Trinitarians will use Robertson's response against them, as well as others who are Non-Trinitarians? Such is also used against Muslims who argue that the Holy Spirit is not a person.

Other then that the word mentioned in Greek is this: http://biblehub.com/greek/1565.htm

For anyone who wants to check out Robertson's word, simply look at page 709https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Grammar_of_the_Greek_New_Testament_in.html?id=DzsPAQAAMAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&amp;q=is insisting on the personality of the Holy Spirit when the grammatical gender so easily called&amp;f=false

At the same time it is being hypocritical, since you are making this claim against the NWT, yet you are using it as your only source, the 1984 to be more specific.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

Vine’s Dictionary comments on the masculine pronouns applied to the Holy Spirit in John: “The personality of the Spirit is emphasized at the expense of strict grammatical procedure in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:8, 13, 14, where the emphatic pronoun ekeinos, “He,” is used of Him in the masculine, whereas the noun pneuma is neuter in Greek...”

Shooting yourself on the foot I see.

Vine’s Dictionary comments on the masculine pronouns applied to the Holy Spirit in John: “The personality of the Spirit is emphasized at the expense of strict grammatical procedure in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:8, 13, 14, where the emphatic pronoun ekeinos, “He,” is used of Him in the masculine, whereas the noun pneuma is neuter in Greek...”

This goes for your other quotes too. It is silly to post things you do not agree with. You are a Trinitarian Christian, you do not apply gender/neuter forms in this case as most who believe in a Triune God, so why post quotes of those who actually make an attempt to understand and explain gender/neuter forms in the Greek Language?

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

Really, in this sense there is not much to argue about here.  Consider, even if the masculine pronoun is due to the preceding noun "Parakletos", the Parakletos is 1) referred to and described as a Person, and 2) is clearly identified as the Spirit (i.e. Parakletos is only an alternative, descriptive name).   So either way the Spirit is shown to be a Person since the Parakletos is identified as a person!

Not quite.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

Justin Martyr writes, “...use with simplicity the words and expressions which offer themselves, and declare to you whatever the Holy Ghost, WHO descended upon them, chose to teach through them to those who are desirous to learn the true religion.” (Justin’s Hortatory Address to the Greeks, Chapter 35).

I don't see where Justin thinks of the Spirit as a person.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

Ignatius (Ad 35-107), who was a disciple of the apostle John, he writes “But the Holy Spirit does not speak his own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that he received from the Father.? (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 9).

The Reason the Holy Spirit has a voice can be read in John 16, and why this is so. Nowhere does it state that the Holy Spirit is a person and or people acknowledging The Holy Spirit to be a Person and or has a Seat near God on his throne.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

Irenaeus writes “neither do we receive another Holy Spirit, besides Him who is with us, and who cries, “Abba, Father;” (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 4, chapter 9).

You've been refuted on this before, critically. Controversial Post ring any bells?

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

We can see that the early Greek speaking church had no problem ascribing personal pronouns to the neuter when it comes to the person of the Holy Spirit.

Modified neutered words does not prove something to be a person.

An A.I. can speak, it s not a person, we can refer to an A.I. as a HE or a SHE, at times depending on who is speaking of said A.I.

Again, you have been refuted of this before, and clearly the views of the church differs from that of today in terms of understanding and Christology.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

I have kept this brief, for an extended discussion on the above see the following; B. F. Westcott The Gospel According to St. John; A. H. Strong Systematic Theology; H. C. G Moule Veni Creator; E. W. Bullinger Figures of Speech Used in the Bible; R. A. Torrey What the Bible Teaches; D. A. Carson The Gospel According to John.

You truly rely on others so much you do not bother to learn by yourself. This should prove as an example for you to read up on the basics of the Greek language, as well as gender and neutered forms, the elementary stuff and perhaps the sand in your eyes will come off, grain by grain.

On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:

On a side note with any discussion of this nature we need to look at another related text where the Holy Spirit applies the first  person possessive pronoun “me” to Himself in Acts 13:2; “…the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for ME (Greek moi) Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." <><

The Holy Spirit speaks, the voice of the Spirit, as to why this was is stated in John 16. Throughout the bible, prophets/men who speak are imbued with the Holy Spirit. We know this by both the cross-references as well as verses like Matthew 12:36, Acts 4:8, 5:3, and Hebrews 10:15.

Again, nowhere in scripture does it speak of the Holy Spirit as a person and or being that can be seen, we know by scripture angels can be seen, such spirit beings who appear like men, but nowhere, no-where, in the scriptures we see the Holy Spirit also described as such, it is only refereed to as a HE/HIM because it is usually a MALE who speaks of the SPIRIT, thus making the neutered word pneuma as a modified word, hence masculine.

 

The Spirit of the Father speaks through people, even angels.

We have the Holy Spirit in us.

Learn also what Shaliah Principle is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliah

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22 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is more of a philosophical thing with me.

Philosophically, as well as in real life, (which if your philosophy is based on reality, are the same ...), I try never to "bring a knife to a gun fight".

Space Merchant made these points quite well in discussing the Holy Spirit.

An essential "weapon" to have is a knowledge and understanding of the Greek language used at the time .... and to understand it correctly.

As grass understands that it is meant to be eaten by cows and other animals ... grass Groks.

So should we.

A lot of Christians are not well aware or informed about the Greek Language and the forms. Every Language has its own forms or something that make it distinct from other languages, like French to Spanish, Creole, Portuguese, etc. anything pertaining to Grammatical gender.

But time and time again, some will prove what they believe vs. what the language in question really says.

The Holy Spirit is of God's nature, it is power, it is wisdom, it is courage, it is righteous, it is God's hand and or finger, it is his breathe, it is his force, it is his energy, it is of what he has caused everything to come into existence by his spoken word,etc.

But it seems people tend to limit God as if he is some overpowered comic book character that has to be sanctioned with limits to fit the narrative, in reality, God has no limit, nor can anything contain him despite him dwelling in temples, tents and or in people who are True Christians, for God is Almighty, and is All Powerful.

God's power is unlimited. He needs no teachers to guide or correct him

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First, there is the claim;

 

“The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power”

 

Instead what followed was the Sabellian form of teaching (hailed by another as irrefutable proof) that the Father is the Holy Spirit;

 

“there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship”

 

But then, like a boat without a rudder, the claim turns completely around and jumps onto that old distorted pretext that the Holy Spirit is “power”.

 

The absurdity of this claim is seen from many passages in Scriptures where the Holy Spirit and power are juxtaposed and frankly make no sense when you substitute the idea of “power” in place of that the Holy Spirit;

 

“for God gave us a {power} not of fear but of power and love and self-control.” 1 Tim 1:7

 

“And Jesus returned in the power of the {power} to Galilee.” Luke 4:14

 

anointing with {power} and power” Acts 10:38

 

But apparently these examples which show the absurdity of the idea on how the Holy Spirit allegedly is a power “is pretty weak” and the reason given is because I don’t know what this “power” can do and is capable of…

 

And it is because of my supposedly inapt understanding of the Greek that somehow dismisses as irrelevant what the experts on the language actually say.

 

Instead of pointing out any further how what this person says is not very coherent and even the ad hominem insults do not warrant response, so I’ll try another approach…

 

Now it may come as a shock to some that there is a Unitarian group known as the Christadelphians which believe, pretty much, the same as any Arian/Unitarian group regarding the Divine, except they have this other little quirk in that they do not consider the Devil a real person.

 

My stance on this is from the Scriptures, which show without a doubt that the Devil is a real person.

 

So how would you Arian/ Unitarians, who do believe that the Devil is a person, PROVE, from the Scriptures, to these poor deluded souls this fact? <><

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The same way that the Scriptures  are quite clear about motorcycle maintenance ...

Look at the results of this bogus philosophy and fantasy of the Trinity and component parts as explained by Christendom -at-large.

During World War I two great armies met on the battlefields between France and Germany, and in a battle that lasted a full year, making this area look more cratered than the surface of the Moon, more that a million men  were killed in mortal combat, and over 4 million wounded.  Men's bodies and blood were mixed into the soil by artillery day after day after day.

Almost all of the combatants ON BOTH SIDES .... were Trinitarians who believe as you do, Cos.

Brethren murdering brethren .... because of the FRUITS of their bogus Theology.

Does not the Scriptures clearly teach "You will know my people, for they have love for one another ..."?

Christendom's belief system FAILED that essential test, always has, and always will ... and they even have Chaplains in the Military to bless and support this carnage, and those who perpetrate it.

Jehovah does NOT.

He has withdrawn his active force blessing them, about 1700 years ago, when the Theology you espouse was adopted from pagandom.

The "FORCE" is not with you, Luke.

 and like a motorcycle tire ... THAT'S where "the rubber meets the road!"

 

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