The Holy Spirit

[Space Merchant]

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

“The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power”

Then maybe you should take a look at Luke 4:16-31 and what Jesus was quoting from.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

Instead what followed was the Sabellian form of teaching (hailed by another as irrefutable proof) that the Father is the Holy Spirit;

Do not mix things around. Sabellianism is a form of Modalistic Monarchianism. It is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of God, as apposed to a Trinitarian view of three distinct persons within the Godhead. So they do believe in the Holy Spirit, however they see it as a mode of God, not his power, however they do somewhat see the Holy Spirit as a person, per-say.

Other then that, you said earlier The Holy Spirit is God, do not contradict yourself.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

“there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship”

Correct, there is only One Spirit, but nowhere ins capture does it scribe said Spirit as an Man and or a Person. As stated before, Angels and even fallen Angels such as Demons, even Satan are described as persons, Sons of the Most High are desired as Persons, even having the capabilities for forming and or becoming human-like, having an appearance of a man, for Angels in the Bible are desired to look like men.

For they have personalities, angels have the power to communicate with one another/other angels as seen in 1 Corinthians 13:1, the ability to talk multiple languages languages of men as seen in Numbers 22:32-35, Daniel 4:23, Acts 10:3-7, and the thinking ability with to which honors and gives glorify and praise Jehovah/Yahweh as seen in Psalms 148:2 and Luke 2:13.

I can pull over a dozens of bible verses on this fact, nowhere in Scripture though, does it describe the Holy Spirit as a literal man or person. The only time it is given a gender is because a male, Jesus who is a man, is using a Greek expression in regards to a Gender form, and that alone does not prove anything when you understand how the Greek Language and gender forms in the Greek Language is spoken.

This seems to be the case for you were unaware of said Greek Gender Forms until I brought it up, for before you justified that HE and HIM means an actual person, when Greek Genders via modified neuter says otherwise.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

But then, like a boat without a rudder, the claim turns completely around and jumps onto that old distorted pretext that the Holy Spirit is “power”.

You clearly are dense on this matter.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

The absurdity of this claim is seen from many passages in Scriptures where the Holy Spirit and power are juxtaposed and frankly make no sense when you substitute the idea of “power” in place of that the Holy Spirit;

How does it not make sense? How do you suppose God the Father make things, let alone create the first man and or empowering those with the Holy Spirit? How do you suppose Nary got pregnant, for we all know it that nos sexual relations with a man/person was involved regarding her early pregnancy?

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

“for God gave us a {power} not of fear but of power and love and self-control.” 1 Tim 1:7

“And Jesus returned in the power of the {power} to Galilee.” Luke 4:14

“anointing with {power} and power” Acts 10:38

 

It is not 1 Timothy 1:7, it is 2 Timothy 1:7, with all that time to read the bible, you see that. Anyways The Holy Spirit is not the spirit of cowardice that was given to such folk, for the Spirit that God gives is of power and love. Check the scripture and re-read it again, as well as the cross-references, perhaps maybe you would learn something. It appears this time you are not using a NWT bible here, ironic.

Luke 4:14 does not help you here, especially with what Jesus was addressing when he had the scrolls of Isaiah in hand, even revealing who the prophet is, which was he himself of which the scrolls speak of. God's Spirit is upon Jesus, and Prophet Isaiah was not wrong about what he wrote either. The passage also points to Acts 10:38, as well as anything pertaining to what Isaiah wrote of the coming prophet who his of God's Holy Spirit and Power, since you are loving the Greek Strong's, you may want to look into these two a bit more.

Acts 10:38 has already been explained to you, even information addressing the Holy Spirit's Power and the Power that was given to Jesus by means of the Holy Spirit, cross-references proves it clearly, again you choose to ignore what is addressed. The fact that you mentioned cross-references and not see the one for Holy Spirit, let alone using a NWT bible that even points to it just shows how you are not well versed in scripture all that well, this goes back to what you said about Luke 24 in your other posts, even there you do not respect the Greek Language, just as you have been doing here.

Clearly you haven't read the bible more and only read the parts that you are in favor of, you brought up cross-references before, but deny them via your own responses afterwards, you are not fooling anyone and no one is going to allow you to confuse and mislead people with nonsense.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

But apparently these examples which show the absurdity of the idea on how the Holy Spirit allegedly is a power “is pretty weak” and the reason given is because I don’t know what this “power” can do and is capable of…

The Holy Spirit is described as:

• As Breath — Habakkuk 2:19 and Revelation 13:15
• The universe coming to be by means of it, in this case, regarding Earth itself - Psalm 33:6 and Isaiah 66:1, 2
• According to Peter about men being moved by the Holy Spirit - 2 Peter 1:20, 21
• Miracles performed by His servants and their zealous preaching of the gospel and of the Kingdom - Luke 4:18, Acts 1:8, and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
• of God's Nature - 1 Corinthians 2:10
• As a Voice - Luke 12:12
• Things of God except [by] the Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 2:11-12
• As Power given - Acts 1:8, 4:33
• Wisdom and Understanding - Isaiah 11:2
• Qualities displayed by individuals who obey  and zealously serve God - Galatians 5:22, 23
• As Wind — Genesis 8:1 and John 3:8
• The Holy Spirit is read to have empowered Samson and was key to his role/feats - Judges 14:6
• A force in living creatures.—Job 34:14, 15
• Disposition or attitude of an individual — Numbers 14:24
• The scriptures refers to GodÂ’s holy spirit as his hands/fingers - Psalm 8:3; 19:1 and Luke 11:20 (see Matthew 12:28.)

The List goes on, and nowhere in scripture the Holy Spirit is seen or read as a man, a person, a literal being, etc.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

And it is because of my supposedly inapt understanding of the Greek that somehow dismisses as irrelevant what the experts on the language actually say.

Clearly you assume That the Holy Spirit is God and you claim that where it says HE or HIM automatically points to it being a person, which is not the case because Greek Gender forms are in use because a man, who is male spoke of the Spirit, this man is Jesus, and the neutered word is then modified to HE or HIM throughout that passage. It is vastly evident you never knew this until it was brought up, hence why your knowledge in Greek came into question, this was the same case with what you pulled for Hebrew Strong's and Luke 24.

You claim experts, but clearly everyone knows not all experts respect Greek gender forms, even if it is displayed to them, in addition to that the so called experts even addressed the gender forms, an example would be me linking one of the people you listed, what they actually said in their book, for a mere quote does not stop there, for said expert explains his case in the book - click on the link I posted before.

As said before there are 2 camps regarding the Holy Spirit

• A Person - Trinitarians, Modalisc, etc.
• Not a Person - Non-Trinitarians

The camp you are in is clear.

If you were in the position to preach the gospel and a lowly man asks you if the bible does not call the Holy Spirit a Person, and you claim the Holy Spirit is a person, who is in the right, you are the lowly man? I would side with the Lowly man because he is humble to what he knows vs a man who express clear ignorance of what the bible actually says.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

Instead of pointing out any further how what this person says is not very coherent and even the ad hominem insults do not warrant response, so IÂ’ll try another approachÂ…

Now it may come as a shock to some that there is a Unitarian group known as the Christadelphians which believe, pretty much, the same as any Arian/Unitarian group regarding the Divine, except they have this other little quirk in that they do not consider the Devil a real person.

Taking shots again are we, last I check

Christatadelphains are a Millenarian Christian group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenarianism) who hold a view of Biblical Unitarianism. The funny thing is, I told you before the difference in every Unitarian group, so this shot taken towards me is very weak, in addition to that I address before that not all Unitarians are the same, nor do all of them agree with each other, but it is no surprise a Trinitarian such as yourself will go to this length, very laughable too.

 

Educate yourself, Cos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_unitarianism#Denominations

Anyways, check your facts, most Non-Trinitarians know that the Devil is indeed an actual person, in fact, he was originally an Angel, and even the bible describes Angels as men and or persons, Spiritual Beings of the like, this fallen Angel stoop down to jealous and evil and made himself Satan The Devil. You have no ground to stand on to use Christatadelphains as means of equaling them to a real Unitarian, let alone other Unitarian denominations who clearly do not share a similar view to them. It is not wise to call them Arians either, last I check, you stated Jesus was to be worshiped, and only Arians worship Jesus instead of God, even praising Jesus as if he is God instead of his own Father - clearly, there is a difference, I told you this before but it appears your vision has been faulted, and that you hear one thing and it goes out the other ear, I would not want to link where this discussion was held to save you trouble of anyone who chooses to see what you have posted in the past. If you want to target Unitarians, you are not doing it right, you picked a group who has the view of a Biblical Unitarian denomination. The only different between you and a Christatadelphains, is that they do not believe in 3 Gods in 1 be it persons and or modes. They may been in error in a few parts, but at least they are wise to not make God into something that he is not, and apparently not Arian either, for they do not believe in Jesus worship compared to modalist and Trinitarians, you did speak of worshiping Jesus before with strong conviction and not too long ago you called the Holy Spirit God, what does that make you?

Anyways, the one becoming Satan was originally like the other Spirit Beings, was created, a perfect, righteous creature of God until he became what he is now, we do not know what his original name is, but he is called Satan, and Satan means accuser or adversary, as for Devil, it means slanderer or lair - and we all know who the first lair is, let alone the very person who became an adversary of God to being with as well as causing problems and often challenging God, mainly in the case with Job. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in Heaven, having access to Heaven also, and was in the presence of God. (Job chapters 1 and 2, Revelations 12:9), this also goes for Angels before they rebelled, mainly the Angels who took it upon themselves to have sexual relations with the young virgin women on earth thus their offspring being the Nephilim (powerful giant looking unnatural human beings; abominations who were very bad) as seen in Noah's Day - for the sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful - Genesis 6:2, and we know the result of that. Satan no longer have access to Heaven, was cast out - Luke 10:18 (John 12:31, 16:11, Hebrews 2:14, Revelations 12:7-9). Therefore, my many comments in the past proves my stance on Spirit Beings, good and bad, as well as Sons of the Most High, the godlike ones, as the scriptures say, in this case, what Jesus have said pertaining to the Law that cannot be broken.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

My stance on this is from the Scriptures, which show without a doubt that the Devil is a real person.

Ok, but you have yet to prove anywhere in scripture whereas the Holy Spirit is a Person, without the use of modified neutered passages and or voice passages.

If you can prove this, you can get off scott-free, but someone such as myself, who has studied the bible to its core since a child can see that you cannot find any scripture that says the Holy Spirit is a man and or person, anywhere and that is 100% fact.

As for the Devil, what I said now and in the past on this forums proves my view of what the bible teaches. The bible makes it clear that the Devil, Satan, despite his original name being unknown, was indeed a Spirit Being like the other Angels, who are persons, but made himself Satan, who was the the first deceiver, slander, lie, The Devil.

We know that Satan is male because, heck, it is obvious that majority of God's Sons in Heaven are 100% male and they appear as men or take form of men (somewhat, for some angels of rank tend to be descirbed differently).

We know this, but clearly nowhere in the bible the Holy Spirit is a Person, described as a person and or a man whatsoever. It came from God in form of a dove, yes, but clearly not as a man coming out of Heaven to bestow power to the one who became Christ that day.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:

So how would you Arian/ Unitarians, who do believe that the Devil is a person, PROVE, from the Scriptures, to these poor deluded souls this fact? <><

Here we go again........

I am not an Arian because I do not believe in religious worship to Jesus, you in the past held a strong conviction to Jesus worship, I can link proof, but I will not kick you while you are down, but you seem to be pushing it this time around - again, in addition, even Semi-Arians at least have the audacity to SEE that Jesus worship instead of God is clearly problematic and or the belief in having a 3 in 1 God as Trinitarians believe.

Unitarians have several denominations, not all of them agree with each other, some follow scripture more than others, as for Trinitarians, they are whole among the same denomination, fact, and it is mostly Non-Trinitarians who have different denominations.

In the past, I already address that the Devil is indeed a person, even a former angel, as I have stated again today, but I ask you, if we can prove the Devil was a person, which is fact and true via the Bible, why is it so hard for you to prove the Holy Spirit to be a person? You try to prove this by using modified neutered passages and voice passages, but cannot prove anywhere in scripture that the Holy Spirit is a literal being and or person, this is why no one agrees with the Trinitarian camp, this is also why this is one of the very teaches that is killing Christianity around the globe and that the young people are leaving the church because of absurdities that you believe in which blinds the masses.

FACT regarding this thread: It can be proven that angels, and even the Devil and or his demons are persons - Spirit Beings, but nowhere in scripture that the One Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit is described as a person or a being, nowhere at all, to use modified neutered passages will not help, nor will using voice passage pertaining to what the Holy Spirit is made referenced to, thus making the Trinitarian view obsolete and incorrect, as to those who are affiliated with the Personhood of the Holy Spirit camp - in error.

FACT: Cross-references was brought up, but ignored comments through. What was the reason to address cross-references if you do not follow what said verse is pointing to? That is being hypocritical and ignorant - even going as far as to disregard said cross-references of the verses, and yet so and so uses a NWT bible 1984 to make a claim, and it is known that the NWT bible point to cross-references by means of small letters. Ignorance sure is a bliss.

Again, you sheer dishonesty and foolishness is on full display as it was in the last discussion. If you say anything else in this regard, I will link said discussion to further prove my point.

Stop tripping over yourselves regarding your man based view of the bible, you will just continue to fall and hurt yourself even more. Because this is what I am seeing right now. Clearly you are no different and just as blind as David Wood, Bob The Builder, James White and the infamous Jay Smith.

[Space Merchant]

On 5/19/2018 at 9:16 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The same way that the Scriptures  are quite clear about motorcycle maintenance ...

Look at the results of this bogus philosophy and fantasy of the Trinity and component parts as explained by Christendom -at-large.

During World War I two great armies met on the battlefields between France and Germany, and in a battle that lasted a full year, making this area look more cratered than the surface of the Moon, more that a million men  were killed in mortal combat, and over 4 million wounded.  Men's bodies and blood were mixed into the soil by artillery day after day after day.

Almost all of the combatants ON BOTH SIDES .... were Trinitarians who believe as you do, Cos.

Brethren murdering brethren .... because of the FRUITS of their bogus Theology.

Does not the Scriptures clearly teach "You will know my people, for they have love for one another ..."?

Christendom's belief system FAILED that essential test, always has, and always will ... and they even have Chaplains in the Military to bless and support this carnage, and those who perpetrate it.

Jehovah does NOT.

He has withdrawn his active force blessing them, about 1700 years ago, when the Theology you espouse was adopted from pagandom.

The "FORCE" is not with you, Luke.

 and like a motorcycle tire ... THAT'S where "the rubber meets the road!"

 

Apparently Trinitarians will speak of the Genesis Act of Creation, but will later on deny how God made all things come into existence, just like how they ignore what the LIGHT means and what it was referring to in a specific verse in the Greek New Testament.

What makes it even more funny, Muslims nowadays are confronting and or confronted by Trinitarians, and are taught and educate on history and about their bible by Muslims who refute their falsehood, some Trinitarians will go on to speak ill of other faiths, even Jehovah's Witnesses while in this confrontation only to be met with questions like if such groups are sticking to scripture regarding who God the Father is and who the Son is, how are they wrong?

In short, this whole Triune God thing is what is killing Christianity in addition to those who only use the gospel to gain money only and do nothing for the Great Commission.

It is no surprise why Christianity is decreasing and ironically Christian minorities are increasing, the difference is because not everyone holds to the idea that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God whereas the Bible specifically says God is One, and this One God is only the Father.

I give it a few more years, people will start to go nuts since it sort of began around the late late 2014, early 2015 that the decline was happening because of such things.

[Cos]

In the farewell discourse in the up-stairs room found in John Gospel chapters 14 to 16, Jesus clearly presents the Holy Spirit as a Person performing personal action. He is presented as “another Helper” and as Jesus’ successor, and in many respects, substitute: a force/power/influence of some kind, or anything less personal than Jesus Himself, would necessarily be something or a disappointment.

 

In Scripture we clearly see how the Holy Spirit enjoys both the distinctness from the Father and the Son, as well as the unity with both. The distinction (e.g. the Father sends the Spirit in response to the Son’s intercession) ensures His separate Personality; His unity (e.g. by the Spirit indwelling in the believer, as the Father and the Son indwell the believer) ensures His Deity.

 

We stand in relations to the Holy Spirit which we can uphold only to a person. He is the object of our faith. We believe on the Holy Spirit. This faith we profess in baptism Matt.28:19. We are baptized not only in the name of the Father and of the Son, but also of the Holy Spirit.

 

The very association of the Spirit in such a connection, with the Father and the Son, as they are admitted to be distinct persons, proves that the Spirit also is a Person. Besides the use of the word “into the name”, admits of no other explanation.

 

We stand in the same relation to Him as to the Father and to the Son ; we acknowledge Him to be a Person as distinctly as we acknowledge the Personality of the Son, or of the Father.

 

Accordingly we are exhorted not "to sin against," "not to resist, "not to grieve" the Holy Spirit. He is therefore a Person who can be the object of our acts who can love and be loved.

 

All the elements of personality, namely, intelligence, will, and individual subsistence, are not only involved in all that is thus revealed concerning the relation in which the Spirit stands to us and that which we sustain to Him, but they are all distinctly attributed to Him. The Spirit is said to know, to will, and to act. He searches, or knows all things, even the deep things of God. No man knows the things of God, but the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2:10, 12.) He distributes "to every man severally as he will." (1 Cor. 12:11.)

 

If He can be loved, reverenced, and obeyed, or offended and sinned against. He must be a person. <><

[Cos]

The Scriptures tell us that in the last days there will be a falling away of the truth;

 

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1)

 

True Christianity will decrease (but not cease) and false teachings will increase…sadly some seem to rejoice in this…

 

Some like to blame Trinitarians for all that is wrong in the world. They will ignore the continual rise of false political idealism to blame Trinitarians for wars. But this kind of self-righteous attitude does not disprove the fact that God is Triune. <><

[Space Merchant]

43 minutes ago, Cos said:

Wall of Text

The Trinitarian Mental Gymnastics keeps on going, eh, perhaps the clowns in the small cop car are part of the show too, Cos?

John chapters 14 to 16 will not help you here, especially 16 that points to several passages to Acts.

I'll ask you again, prove via scripture that the Holy Spirit is a Person and or a Being, that passage in John has already been addressed because the speaker, JESUS (masculine), spoke of the HOLY SPIRIT (NEUTERED), and throughout the passage the neutered word is MODIFIED (neuter-masculine), I do not see why this has to be address, yet again, to a man who stated that his Greek is called into question. I already stated you cannot use modified gender form passages to prove so called personhood, you'll have to prove an actual passage and or scripture that the Holy Spirit is seen as a literal person (without the use of gender forms and or voice).

For even things and places, such as Jerusalem is refereed to as a SHE, HER, or MOTHER, and we all know Jerusalem is not a literal PERSON.

Example:

Galatians 4:26 - But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Try again or do not bother at all.

Also another factor is that parakletos is masculine, as well as a Noun: http://biblehub.com/greek/3875.htm

As for the recent response,

As well as accursed teachings, a chuck full of em. And blind leading the blind and many who are obliviously mislead.

You may want to look at the cross-references to 1 Timothy 4:1, it speaks of those with the Holy Spirit upon them speaking of what is inspired, nice try at best, but the cross-references gives us the information, you even suggested cross-references before and it would seem this time you jump from your 1984 NWT to another bible, perhaps the ESV, CSB or the HCSB at a guess.

No one is blaming Trinitarians for wars, however, some have sided with those of Kairos, The Reformation, the secular Religious folk, as well as the Together Movement, of which will take place in Texas in October 2018. Mot Trintiarians are conservatives, and are well mixed with world affairs, like the Jerusalem Decision which caused problems and a lot of blood at the hands of the allies of the conservatives, the young Palestine didn't deserve to be shot in the face, or the Assyrians didn't deserve to be abandon by allies to be given to ISIS, or the bodies of their people and their young being in the possession of Al-Jayism. A Real Christian would not delve way too deep into the political confinements of man, and a man of Christ would never be part of such things. Start acting like a Christian and read your bible, you spend too much time with your understanding of man regarding scripture than actually being immersed in it yourself and contradict everything and say something outlandish, thus proving not only you are a Trinitarian, but clearly blinded, you call the Holy Spirit God, and Jesus God and the Father God whereas a single Law from the Torah disproves 3 in 1 God believe very strongly, let alone to what Jesus recited as a child and to what the early Christians affirmed, such as what Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians 8:6, even to this day people live by this law, die by it too, to brush over its meaning with another doctrine is a clear disrespect to what the bible says and to what the laws that God made even says.

 

Again, God is not Triune, there is One God, that is the Father, Jesus address the Father who is his God several times in scripture, even that the Father is greater than he.

Examples:

• Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
• John 14:28 - You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
• Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
• John 20:17 - Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
• Revelations 3:2 - Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.

Clearly God being mention separate from Jesus, in this examples like:

• Colossians 1:3 - We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
• Galatians 1:1 - Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
• Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

• There is One God and One Christ, the Head of the Church is the Christ, the Head of the Christ, is the Father, God. God is the one who anoints, The chosen one, His Christ who is His Son, is the one who is anointed, the prophet that was to come to the people as in the Torah it even states this, Prophet Isaiah makes it clear as day for us to read.
• Nowhere in scripture that God is mentioned as a 3 in 1 Being.
• John 1:1 will not help you here, nor will Isaiah 9:6 (El Gibbor is not El Shaddai here) for we get a clear direct answer of the coming prophet as read in Deuteronomy 18:18, for this prophet who is the Seed of Abraham is the one who will speak God's Spoken Word for the Word is God an the Word is spoken through a man who is flesh, an this man is Jesus, not to mention the Timeline regarding John's Introductory,f or clearly John the Baptist never existed in the Old Testament.
• Nowhere in scripture that the Holy Spirit is seen as a Person or Being.
• Nowhere in scripture Jesus claim to be God for God cannot taste death (kill by his own creation), be fearful, or being unaware of the condition of a Fig Tree.
• Another reason why the Holy Spirit is not a person and or God is because only Jesus is, who is Lord also, is seated at the right hand of the Father, there is no 3rd throne for the clear personhood myth that is spouted by Trinitarians.
• Nowhere in the bible that is says God is a man, for the early Hew Old Testament clearly states God is not like a man or a son of man nor thinks like a man or a son of man, God is not even human, he is invisible, immortal, and clearly a Spirit and greater than anyone or anything and no one is equal and or above him, for He is Almighty God, the God and Father of Jesus Christ, the God and Father of me, the God and Father of you, and everyone who dwells on this earth, those who are alive and those who are dead, for God is not only a God of the living, but of the dead, for he has the power to bring those in death back to life.
• God cannot be seen and it is said that no one can see him and live.
• Nowhere in scripture young Jews recite the Old Testament of 3 Gods, they only recite and learn of the One True God of Israel. Jesus himself, as a child not only was he taught by Mary and Joseph, he learn about his Father who is His God, even going to His Father's temple when Mary and Joseph were looking for him for sometime.
• When he was circumcised on the 8th day, he was taken to the Tempe of his God, who is His Father.

You are clearly at fault here and you claim the Holy Spirit to be a person, yet you cannot prove personhood int he bible and will restore to passages of neutered words being modified, typical move for a man who is in the Holy Spirit is a Person Camp vs those who are no in such a camp.

That being said, you do not know your Greek or Hebrew, which is fact, you did the run around with John chapter 14/16 again after it has been address an the like. In the end, it is clear as to who is blind, the only mistake you haven't done was not only thinking of the Holy Spirit as a literal person and or a God as you claim, but a literal person having literal interactions with everything and everyone in the scripture, as a being, this belief is seen as detestable and there is a selected few people, regardless of Non-Trinitarian/Oneness/Trinitarian belief, they hold strong conviction to such and can and will be refuted dearly for such accursed teachings.

I want you to serious take a look at the gospel of Luke, read the passage I address earlier whereas Jesus was reading what Prophet Isaiah had wrote, look carefully of what was said of the Holy Spirit and check the cross-reference.

The dishonesty is very irritating to me and this was not the first rodeo of where you did this, and when such takes place, it requires, no, it demands correction, and it has to be made.

Lastly, such doctrines is the root of the decline of Christianity and the Traditions of man entering the church, perhaps you should look this up because it would seem you've been hiding under a wrong all this time in this regard.

[Cos]

We read in Scripture that the Holy Spirit has a will, and He decides which gifts to give believers:

 

“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills (kathōs bouletai).” (1 Cor. 12:11)

 

The Greek word βουλεται (translated “will”) is the present indicative of βούλομαι and grammatically is referring to the Holy Spirit. The present tense of the word in this verse “emphasizes the habitual or repeated action. He gives not according to the merit or wishes of men but according to his own will.” (Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament p.429)

 

“The Present Indicative is used to express customary actions and general truths” (Syntax of Moods and Tenses of New Testament).

Here are how some Dictionaries and Lexicons explain the meaning of this word.

 

Strongs Greek Dictionary;

 G1014 βούλομαι boulomai

Middle voice of a primary verb; to “will”, that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare G2309.

 

Thayer's Greek Lexicon;

 1014: βούλομαι
…to will, wish;  to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded: …of the will electing or choosing between two or more things…

 

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament;

βαύλομαι, to will, wish, desire, purpose, be minded, of the will making choice between alternatives

 

Dodson Greek-English Lexicon, G1014, βούλομαι, Verb

I will, intend, desire

 

Strong's Electronic Concordance;

boulomai: to will

Original Word: βούλομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: boulomai
Phonetic Spelling: (boo'-lom-ahee)
Short Definition: I will, intend, desire
Definition: I will, intend, desire, wish.

 

Vines Dictionary;

Verb,1014,boulomai

"to wish, to will deliberately," expresses more strongly than thelo (No. 6) the deliberate exercise of the will

 

Hastings New Testament Dictionary;

When we turn to βούλομαι we find that the verb is always used of man, except in Luk 22:42, Heb 6:17 (the only case where the word occurs in Heb.), 2Pe 3:9, and Jam 1:18 Mat 11:27, 1Co 12:11… The verb thus denotes plan and settled deliberate purpose

 

How can a mindless power make decisions?

 

The word βούλομαι appears in the Bible 34 times and used only for persons. The Holy Spirit is a Person. For in 1 Cor 12:11 He acts as a person; distributes favors, confers gifts as He wills. It would be absurd to say a “power” bestows favors, and distributes the various gifts.

 

Here is a clear proof of the personality of the Spirit, who is not only distinguished from His gifts, and the distribution of them, which is a personal act  described to Him; but this is said to be done according to THE WILL of the Holy Spirit, which shows an intelligent person, capable of choosing and willing.

 

The NWT has for boulomai “it wills”. Yet how can a thing, an active force, a mindless power, have will?

 

It is also quite clear that poetical personification, as some imagine when it comes to the Holy Spirit, would be quite out of place here because of the personal deeds attributed to the Holy Spirit in the context. <><

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, Cos said:

Wall of Text

1 Corinthians 12:11 will not help you either, granted with what is said before that verse regarding Spiritual Gifts (Guidance by/Operations of the Spirit) in accordance to Apostle Paul, going into One Body with Many Members, verse 12 and onward, in addition to, once again, cross-references, let alone John chapter 16 as to why this is. If I am not mistaken some translations will use He/he/It/it will(s)/determine(s)/choose(s), the obvious ones are sticking true to the oldest source of which the bible is based off of, so we have translations like the Updated American Standard version that uses "it wills", The NCV just refers to "Spirit", so, moreover, some verses point back to passages in John, Acts and even 1 John, so many to list, which I will not do because why bother with someone who address cross-references but do not adhere to them. What kills it for you even more is Paul's affirmation of God and of Jesus in chapter 8, as well as what Paul had said in chapter 10 regarding the Christ.

But by your logic, Jerusalem, a City, is perhaps a literal female woman who is the mother of every man, woman and child who is with her and not a city after all. Luckily, everyone knows the City of Jerusalem, as I said before, is described as a woman in some passages, example (Jeremiah 33:16, Lamentations 1:1-7), does not make the literal city a person if called SHE, HER, WOMAN, MOTHER, the same way regarding the City of Israel is referred to as MALE, MAN, HE, HIM, example (Jeremiah 31:10), does not make the city of literal person and or man.

At the end of the day, the Holy Spirit can be and or refered to in respects to Greek gender forms, called a HE, SHE and or IT, nowhere is it proven, in biblical scripture, that this one Spirit is a person/Being or a God (clearly isn't having a throne or being seated near God - oh wait, you called the Holy Spirit a God, nevermind), nowhere, unless you can pull it out of the bible to prove otherwise - which I highly doubt from a Jay Smither.

That being said, you've yet to prove that The Holy Spirit is God and or a Person via scripture, let alone Jesus himself being God as you so dearly expressed before, so this still stands - rather you take to heart of this being asked of you rather than changing the subject to something other than what is being asked.

Again, where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a Person/God, let alone any passages whereas one called the Holy Spirit God and or a Person/Being? Do not used modifiers or what the Spirit is desired as because I already address you cannot use such to help your case, Cos.

The mental gymnastics you are pulling does not faze anyone and you continue to land flat on your back with every response and evasive maneuvers.

Also Greek Strong's Number 1014 βούλομαι (boulomai) has 37 occurrences, with 20 unique forms.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

... At the end of the day, the Holy Spirit can be and or refered to in respects to Greek gender forms, called a HE, SHE and or IT, nowhere is it proven, in biblical scripture, that this one Spirit is a person/Being or a God (clearly isn't having a throne or being ....

I visualize what I read as I read ... and I thought that was a killer point .... Jehovah sits on the Throne ... with Jesus at his right hand, and IF the Holy Spirit was a person, apparently "he" did NOT get a chair.

With no name and no chair to sit on, "he " would not be a very FRIENDLY Holy Spirit, so I would have to rescind my initial thought that his name might be Casper (The Friendly Spirit), of yesteryear's comic book fame.

 The dynamic is QUITE clear in Revelation 1:1 in eleven or so words EXACTLY which personalities are in control, in heaven, and it is Jehovah as the one who knows, Jesus who is temporarily ignorant of His revelation relayed to the Apostle John,  until instructed by Jehovah God.

The un-named angel that was sent from Jesus as a subordinate taking executive direction .... just as Jesus was a subordinate to Jehovah God.

Casper, Fred, Marvin, and Bertha-Ann are not mentioned.

New International Version
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

New Living Translation
This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John,

English Standard Version
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Berean Study Bible
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John,

Berean Literal Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John,

New American Standard Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

King James Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Contemporary English Version
This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon. Christ then sent his angel with the message to his servant John.

Good News Translation
This book is the record of the events that Jesus Christ revealed. God gave him this revelation in order to show to his servants what must happen very soon. Christ made these things known to his servant John by sending his angel to him,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave Him to show His slaves what must quickly take place. He sent it and signified it through His angel to His slave John,

International Standard Version
This is the revelation of Jesus the Messiah, which God gave him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He made it known by sending his messenger to his servant John,

NET Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,

New Heart English Bible
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. God gave it to him to show his servants the things that must happen soon. He sent this revelation through his angel to his servant John.

New American Standard 1977
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Jubilee Bible 2000
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his slaves things which are convenient to do quickly, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his slave John,

King James 2000 Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and revealed it by his angel unto his servant John:

American King James Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:

American Standard Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Douay-Rheims Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John,

Darby Bible Translation
Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified [it], sending by his angel, to his bondman John,

English Revised Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to shew unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Webster's Bible Translation
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:

Weymouth New Testament
The revelation given by Jesus Christ, which God granted Him, that He might make known to His servants certain events which must shortly come to pass: and He sent His angel and communicated it to His servant John.

World English Bible
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,

Young's Literal Translation
A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

[Cos]

Some ask silly questions like, “where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a Person”? This same question can be asked of the Father, where in the Scriptures does it say that the Father is a Person?

 

Now just because Scripture does not actually say that the Father is a Person, we can still know that He is because of certain contributing factors.

 

Regardless, some think that because the Holy Spirit has the personal pronoun ascribed to Him that this is just personification, just as Jerusalem is personified in some passages.

 

Personification is a rhetorical figure of speech in which inanimate objects or abstractions are endowed with personal qualities.

 

Personification are found throughout the Scriptures, But in all these examples we know by way of human experience that they are not really persons. Not so with the Holy Spirit for this idea is assumed. No one can know the Holy Spirit is a thing (and not a person) the way we can know the city of Jerusalem is not a person by human experience.

 

We can prove something is personification by finding a Bible verse that outright state that it is not a person but a thing. We can do this with sin, death, hills, wisdom, stars Jerusalem, etc.

 

When a passage that ascribes personal characteristics or action to a thing cannot be interpreted literally, then the passage is using personification.

 

Personification is an example of poetic license: saying something that ordinary logic tells us is impossible. If this ordinary signal is absent, it stands to reason that the passage is not using personification.

 

For example, death does not literally rule as king, nor does sin literally rule as king, a martyr’s blood does not literally cry out from the ground. Tongues do not literally strut. Rivers do not literally clap their hands. Light and truth are not literal travel guides to a sacred site. Money is not a literal god.

 

When we turn to the Scriptures that describe the Person and work of the Holy Spirit, however, this ordinary signal is absent. There is nothing in these descriptions of the Holy Spirit that cannot be true of an actual spiritual being.

 

For example: “If I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” (John16:7); “The Spirit intercedes for us” (Rom.8:26); “The Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God” (1Cor.2:10).

 

None of these passages states any personal characteristic or action that is impossible for a spiritual entity to possess or to perform. The usual signpost that says “personification” is absent. There is nothing in these passages that puts them into the company of valleys that sing (Ps.65:13) and stones that cry out (Hab.2:11) except the assumed idea.

 

There is a second principle that also comes into play: does personification fit the context? When we try to interpret the descriptions of the Holy Spirit as mere figures of speech, the attempt fails. The contexts of the passages do not fit the premise that the Holy Spirit is not a person. <><

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Even the U.S. Battleship "Missouri" has a name, and even an affectionate nickname "The Mighty Mo", but is referred to as a "she".

She sat in Tokyo Bay in 1945 and accepted the surrender of the Japanese Empire.

The above single sentence is so complex, yet in common usage as stated, that it disproves your last post in every way possible.

[Space Merchant]

21 minutes ago, Cos said:

Some ask silly questions like, “where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a Person”? This same question can be asked of the Father, where in the Scriptures does it say that the Father is a Person?

 

It isn't a silly question for if you did traveling and spreading of the gospel, questions like this are asks, mainly for those who want to go into scripture with total discernment in what the truth is.

God is indeed a person, he has many qualities, love, wisdom, justice, etc, hence the fruit of the spirit as seen in Galatians 5, the same qualities that Jesus himself expresses, God is love, Jesus also expresses love, which is one of many examples. God speaks to his people, he was with Moses when he made the Laws, example, Shema Yisrael based off of the Torah, Deuteronomy, such Laws, in addition, despite his presence being there, Moses cannot look at his face, for in Exodus 33:20, God even stated “You cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.” and we know that no one can live if they see God for his GLORY is that great, a pair of sunglasses wouldn't help you even, you'd be a pile of ash before you can get a glance. We also know that in Exodus 33:11, we read, “Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.”

God speaks many times throughout the Holy Testament and expresses himself, even emotionally when the people of the nation were doing detestable things such as "passing their young into the fire" a practice most Christians hold to today.

God has a place of dwelling, that is,in Heaven, upon his Throne. God has a personality, said personality with likes and dislikes, as said before, he has feelings, his reaction to those practicing detestable things cause him to act and or command his followers to act on his behalf, example, the whole situation with curses and sexual immorality practices of a specific group of people and a man who was the root of it all. As I said, God is Love, the scriptures tells us that he loves his people, and that he rejoices in his works, in addition, he hates idolatry, and feels hurt over wickedness, as said previously, look into Genesis 6:6; Deuteronomy 16:22; 1 Kings 10:9; Psalm 104:31.

Jesus himself speaks of his Father of having a place of dwelling, a person, who is in a specific location, as stated before, in Heaven, on his Throne, as well as Jesus, at times, stating that he is and or in the process of going back to his Father (John 14:2, 16:28). We also know that God dwells in places that honor him by means of religious worship,  to no one else but him, and Jesus, as a child, was at his Father's temple multiple times, even on the 8th day of his infant life, Mary and Joseph took Jesus to the temple of God.

God has representative by means of Shalich Principle, an act of someone coming in the name of someone far superior to them, example bene elohims of elohim, Angels of Yahweh/Jehovah who come to speak/represent of who sent them. The very name of YHWH, be it Yahweh and or Jehovah means To Exist and or Cause to Exist.

So your little change up in this regard does not help you here, we know the bible describes God and even Jesus (as a man and when he was risen) as a person. We know the bible tells us spirit beings are persons, beings if you will that look like and or appear as men, we know that even Satan and his Demons are persons and or beings as well, but never, never ever we see in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a Person.

Again with the Jay Smithing, it will not help you here.

41 minutes ago, Cos said:

Now just because Scripture does not actually say that the Father is a Person, we can still know that He is because of certain contributing factors.

Regardless, some think that because the Holy Spirit has the personal pronoun ascribed to Him that this is just personification, just as Jerusalem is personified in some passages.

You really have to read the bible a but more..... Gender forms in the Greek Language, as I said to you many many times, I suggest you learn your Greek, as well as your Hebrew for if a city or a Spirit is modified by means of Greek gender forms, i.e. neutered into masculine and or a feminine, it does not 100% make said thing a person and or being, this is the very reason I brought up Jerusalem and Israel, most of the time the speaker is indeed male and will often speak of the target subject of either masculine and or feminine, other times the neutered word is left by itself.

44 minutes ago, Cos said:

For example: “If I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” (John16:7); “The Spirit intercedes for us” (Rom.8:26); “The Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God” (1Cor.2:10).

For the love of that is all holy and pure! You keep going back to John 16, why when it defeats anything and everything you try to twist it into? The only reason the Holy Spirit is called a HE/HIM is because of WHO is SPEAKING. 1 Corinthians 2:10 should be very obvious of who is speaking because we know that his passage is part of an Epistle, in today's English it called a Letter, who wrote the letter? Apostle Paul. We also find out that the Holy Spirit is of God, for it is NOT  a God as you claim before, otherwise you'd have 2 God's right then and there. Moreover, we know what this verse implies because it points to several other verses, including John 14:26, totaling up to 9 verses that are rightfully connected to this passage, the only part of that verse you plunked out points directly to Romans 11:33. Romans 8:26 is regarding the helper, the replacement for Jesus and this verse strongly points to John chapter 14 and 16 combined.

You spoke boldly about cross-references, I suggest you start looking at them, before you speak of a verse, granted you are using the NWT 1984 hence your previous comments, the bible even holds your hand when it comes to cross-references to a verse, why ignore the luxury of such?

57 minutes ago, Cos said:

None of these passages states any personal characteristic or action that is impossible for a spiritual entity to possess or to perform. The usual signpost that says “personification” is absent. There is nothing in these passages that puts them into the company of valleys that sing (Ps.65:13) and stones that cry out (Hab.2:11) except the assumed idea.

But you seem to not being getting the point from the very being. You bring this up and yet you ignore what is being said here.

58 minutes ago, Cos said:

There is a second principle that also comes into play: does personification fit the context? When we try to interpret the descriptions of the Holy Spirit as mere figures of speech, the attempt fails. The contexts of the passages do not fit the premise that the Holy Spirit is not a person. <><

And yet you call the Holy Spirit a God/Being (even though nowhere in scripture also that the Holy Spirit is called a God), with no proof of such in scripture whatsoever. We know of God being a person, we know of Jesus and the other Spirit Beings, Sons of the Most High, those who have fallen, become demons, who are also persons/spirit beings, incldues God's adversary.

This one Spirit, that is, The Holy Spirit is not a person at all, hence why I brought up the 2 camps, for there is only one group of people who believes the Holy Spirit is a Person, and goes against the inspired word itself. If the Holy Spirit was indeed a person and or being, it would be accepted by a majority of folks and it would be explained and expressed clearly in the scriptures, but this is not the case. We see nowhere in the scripture of the Holy Spirit being a person, for this doctrine is unheard of, Our early church fathers have a pass on this because not many of them knew a whole a lot until later on more discernment and the like came into play years upon years later and more passages have been recovered, O.K'd as Bible canon, etc.

So I'll stand on what I said before, and you've yet to prove that the Holy Spirit is a person and or being, instead you keep going around what is being asked and you keep going back to and using everything pointing to John 14 and 16, when it clearly does not help your case.

As I said before, it is things like this that puts a strong disinterest in the gospel, the inspired word of God and what his Son had to go through in today's society, for false things such as this, accursed teaches that bares no fruit, putting Christianity in a strong decline. It would not surprise me if the unity movement misleads more people because the truth is not being taught to everyone and the truth is so strong, it cannot be handled by some, even you, despite the fact that the very truth can and will set you free, but you refuse it.

That being said, at this point it has nothing to do with the Jehovah's Witnesses and or anyone else, this thread only shows someone is clearly blind by what they've been taught and do not accept what the bible teaches, you have to embrace the teachings and the gospel, not look at this as is, as most Christians do, example being John 1:1 when they fail to see the context and what is read in the Torah regarding the coming prophet, the Seed.

I'll say it again, you have no ground to stand on, and the only reason I am on a defense here is because of the dishonesty when it comes to the Holy Spirit itself, which does not still well with a Christian such as myself that have the very scriptures running in my blood, for what is said in scripture is what I speak of; coming out of my mouth for the gospel and the truth has to be heard.

I suggest you unlearn the lies, and really read the bible, research and study it because there is a lot of error in most of your responses.

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Even the U.S. Battleship "Missouri" has a name, and even an affectionate nickname "The Mighty Mo", but is referred to as a "she".

She sat in Tokyo Bay in 1945 and accepted the surrender of the Japanese Empire.

The above single sentence is so complex, yet in common usage as stated, that it disproves your last post in every way possible.

Apparently when you tell someone something, it goes into one ear and out the other. What bothers me the most is when people are clearly showing total dishonesty regarding the Holy Spirit, and there is one one camp of people who do such a thing, thus making Christianity a mockery around the globe and quickly declining because of it.