The Holy Spirit

[Space Merchant]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Apparently Trinitarians within mainstream Christendom apply the slogan of Burger King when it comes to their confusing Christology, "Have it Your Way" and it would seem they are having it their way when it comes to scripture.

The thing is here, what the Bible says, what the early Church had taught and practice, which includes the abilities of which Jesus entrusted the Church, being used by Church leaders who adhere to it, the application of scripture in regards to lifestyle, morals, cleanliness, etc. - We should take such in seriousness for such is scriptural.

We should not be adding on something outlandish, but rather take in what is already there, even though we are learning over time, an example would be one reading the Bible to eventually find out God has a Son who is only-begotten when before the reader didn't know about the only-begotten Son of God. But we have the silliness of some today that say God is Jesus or that God approves of guns, these false practices and heresies the mainstream adheres to, as well as a list of other things, in this regard, The Holy Spirit, hence the topic.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

To be clear, I never suggested God approved of guns .... but he did make the FIRST sword, and he refers to Himself as "Jehovah of Armies", many, many many times in the Bible.

Jehovah is my Shepherd ... but Smith and Wesson is my armorer.

 

[Cos]

Looking at the latest series of post, one prevailing view, which one person was so adamant about that he felt the need to end his comments with the word “PERIOD” as if that makes what he says more prominent?

 

When scoffers challenge the Deity of Christ they complain that Christ died on the cross, so that proves that He isn’t God. Of course, these objectors usually introduce a problem of their own, defining death as annihilation. They believe that when someone dies, they cease to exist.

 

What does the Bible teach that death is? It is not annihilation; it is separation.

 

When Christ died, He did not cease existing. His body went into the grave, and His soul went into the compartment of departed spirits (compare Luke 16:19-31; Sheol (or Hades) contained two compartments, one of these was known as Abraham’s Bosom or paradise, the abode of the faithful dead, the other being tartarus for the wicked).

 

Remember also how He told the repentant thief, "Today you shall be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus promised the repentant thief that he would be in this place, the place where the faithful dead go. Scripture also tells us that when Christ ascended to heaven He took with Him the compartment of sheol where the faithful dead stayed in wait (Eph 4:8-9). 

 

Death is a separation. It is a separation of the body from the spirit. It is a separation from this world to the next. A point that emphasizes this very truth is that Jesus claimed that He will raise Himself when the three days were up (John 2:19-22).

 

Also it is interesting to note that the Scriptures says that believers won’t die (John 6:50), but we all know that they still do. If Habakkuk 1:12 did read, “you do not die” it is clearly an idiom saying, you God are immortal and will exist forever. <><

[Evacuated]

On 7/8/2018 at 3:29 AM, Cos said:

Frankly I have no problem with using the divine name in Scripture, but this is all about adding what does not have manuscript support.

But presumably adding what does have manuscript support is acceptable? The omission of God's name from the Hebrew Scriptures is a travesty not a translation. The pusilanimous argument that it was not contained in the Ist Century Greek Scriptures has no merit. There were some attempts to justify this by suggesting it's ommission from the Septuagint meant that even quotes made by Jesus or other Scripture writers from this translation would not include the Divine Name. But this pathetic justification falls at the first hurdle in that manuscript support for Ist Century inclusion of the Tetragrammaton is clearly extant.

Nash papyrus.1st Cent BCE (Septuagint) De. 18:16 includes Tetragrammaton

Codea Alexandrinus 5th Century CE (Septuagint) De. 18:16 Clear substitution of KY (Abbreviation for kyrios - Lord)

Modern Interlinear with Strongs References. (Septuagint) De. 18:16  Clearly follows late substitution of kyrios, Lord.

So the Divine name was Scripturally available in the Ist Century to Jesus and Christian Greek Scripture writers. It is unthinkable that they would follow Jewish superstition and tradition in ommitting it's use, at least in their specific quotations from the Septaugint translation. It is even more improbable that Jehovah, by means of Holy Spirt, would somehow "forget" or ommit to include His own glorous name in His own inspired writings.

Frankly I have no problem with using the divine name in Scripture, or in restoring it to it's proper place in the Greek Scriptures, with manuscript support as far as possible, trusting in Jehovah's guidance where there is not, yet. (Compare the Dead Sea Scroll impact on the saga regarding the restoring of  God's Name to the Hebrew Scriptures). And this despite the determined and resolute attempts of apostate religionists to obliterate God's own name from His own message of salvation to mankind.

[Evacuated]

7 hours ago, Cos said:

When Christ died, He did not cease existing.

This is either a grave mistake or  a denial of Christ's ransom sacrifice. This is dangerous ground in either respect but, respectfully, I will leave the determination of which to someone better qualified.

I am departing from this particular discussion.

?

[Space Merchant]

15 hours ago, Cos said:

Looking at the latest series of post, one prevailing view, which one person was so adamant about that he felt the need to end his comments with the word “PERIOD” as if that makes what he says more prominent?

We are going by what the Bible says and a total respect to the language, that is why what was said before is true, mainly in regards to John 14 and 16 as to where your Greek was called into question and the very fact that even your own source proved you wrong.

15 hours ago, Cos said:

When scoffers challenge the Deity of Christ they complain that Christ died on the cross, so that proves that He isn’t God. Of course, these objectors usually introduce a problem of their own, defining death as annihilation. They believe that when someone dies, they cease to exist.

Jesus is not God for many different reasons, but he is a god/a godlike ones according to the Law of the Jews, even Jesus brought that up in John chapter 10, and later on, Apostle Paul also brought it up, both quoting not just the law, but what God had said about his sons in Heaven and on Earth, for these god/godlike ones are not only of Spirit Beings, but of us humans as well, hence the Judges of Israel, etc. Jesus was in the right to speak of the law against Jews that were blinded by Satan.

Death is ceasing to exist, if you want annihilation, if it is ever so obvious, those of mankind only die once and cease, to dust they came to dust they return, conscious of nothingness, to some a void of darkness, a cease of activity, etc. One is destroyed for good upon the Second Death, in a sense, like permanently deleting a file from your computer, therefore, gone for good as if it never existed.

And God terminates the wicked, he does not watch them suffering in agony day in and day out, if that was the case, you paint God as something entirely different and ignore of how he FELT as to what the people were doing to their sons and daughters, God stated stuff like that would never cross his mind.

On to the next point, God cannot die he is the literal life-giving force the same one who gave life to Jesus after he was crucified. God is a God to you, me and all of those in life, as well as those who had perished and chained up in the pangs of death, Death itself is the last enemy of which God will deal with once his purpose and will has been accomplished. Moreover, God is not like us men, according to Job, and in various passages in the Hebrew Old Testament, God is not a man nor is he a son of man, God's primary nature is incorruptibility, in plain English incorruptibility means Immortality, one who is unable to succumb to and or taste death at all

In the Dictionary incorruptibility means not subject to death and or decay, for one is everlasting. Immortality means living forever, eternal life, therefore, God cannot taste death regardless of what you say and or think, however Jesus can because Jesus came to represent his Father as a man, flesh, roam among the people and the like, preached the good news gospel until he was killed, and him being a man, Jesus was corruptible/moral, both words meaning the state of being subject to death can be corrupted, in this case, to dying.

And one of the most evident things is this man, Jesus, cried out to God, and later on, we see in Acts, and or anything that Paul had written, that God raised Jesus out of the pangs of death, and eventually, Jesus ascended to his Father after giving instruction to his disciples and the reward that is to come from the Father, this reward, The Holy Spirit, last I recall, I told you to read Acts 1 and 2 and you ignored those chapters.

15 hours ago, Cos said:

What does the Bible teach that death is? It is not annihilation; it is separation.

Death is ceasing to exist, to perish be conscious of nothing. Some fear it greatly, some do not shed fear of it but deep down inside they do, others do not care if they die but they worry about friends and family around them, some choose death as a noble sacrifice and or for a radicalized false reason, others accept it knowing they protect something or someone and or maintain a faith in something knowing that even if they die, God knows of their actions.

Death becomes, in a sense, like annihilation when you are dead for good, ceasing totally with no chance of eternal life, therefore, in a sense, you are deleted from this world like a computer file, once it is gone, it is gone for good.

God gives life, eternal life, to those worthy of it, to those righteous, to those meek, to those that truly attempt to seek him, but keep running into obstacles, etc.

To say it is a separation it is as though you believe in the Afterlife, for it is common for Trinitarians to believe this, but what they forget is the very fact that Jesus is the first of the fruits and was the only one to had risen to Heaven and eventually those chosen will follow and only them.

15 hours ago, Cos said:

When Christ died, He did not cease existing. His body went into the grave, and His soul went into the compartment of departed spirits (compare Luke 16:19-31; Sheol (or Hades) contained two compartments, one of these was known as Abraham’s Bosom or paradise, the abode of the faithful dead, the other being tartarus for the wicked).

You do realize that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable - right? In fact, verses 1-10 in this chapter is also a parable, The Parable of the Dishonest Manager, the other being verses 19-31, The Rich Man and Lazarus. Other than that, Sheol, also known as Hades, is known as the grave to some, to others they simply see it as buried in Sheol or taken [down] to Sheol, but in most translations they refer to both Sheol and Hades as Hell, to add further confusion, Gehenna, in some translations is also refereed to as Hell, hence why people confused the two, for you cannot throw the lake of fire into the lake of fire.

In these parables, Jesus was teaching a very important lesson and about the things to come by means of these parables.

As for Jesus, if we are referring to 1 Peter 3:19, it points to both 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6. It also should be evident of what those Spirits are, and they are not deceased humans as you believe, if anyone is honest, they would understand that these so called Spirits are the wicked ones, of whom are reserved for judgement, the demons, those who have rebelled against God.

Moreover, Jesus did Jesus preach to these spirits in prison, for Peter wrote that this occurred after Jesus only after Jesus was made alive in the Spirit, we see this clearly in 1 Peter 3:18, 19, adding up to verse 22 for this point:

(18) For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (19) in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, (20) because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (21) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (22) who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

When Peter mentioned that Jesus' proclamation and or that he preached, it is obvious that Peter was using past tense, which suggests that such an event in regards to preaching took place before Peter wrote his very first Epistle (letter). Sometime after Jesus' resurrection, Jesus made a proclamation to the wicked spirits, the demons that rebelled, regarding the fully justified punishment they are due to receive on the day of God's judgement. This wasn't a preaching herald good hope, but something of which they will get what is coming to them when God enacts judgement on such Spirits, therefore, it was a preaching and or proclamation of judgment, this is very similar to the actions of Jonah, of whom God had sent to Nineveh, see Jonah 1:1, 2. it is done in similar fashion in regards to the Jesus to the demons.

Jonah Flees the Presence of the Lord

• (1) Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, (2) “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it, for their evil has come up before me.”

Furthermore, Jesus had demonstrated his faith and loyalty to the day of his death, well into the day of his resurrection, for he had proved that Satan the Devil indeed had no hold on him, thus being victorious over the Great Serpent, in addition, Jesus had the basis for making such a a great proclamation, again, this can be seen in the chapters mention before, John 14 and 16, more specific 30 in 14 and 8-11 in 16. Soon, Jesus will bind up and then cast Satan the Devil into the the abyss along with the fallen ones that follow him, see Luke 8:30, 31 and Revelations 20:1-3. Until that time comes, these Spirits, the fallen ones who had rebelled, called Demons who are in rebellion against God, are in a condition vast spiritual darkness, and what is to come for them in regards to their final destruction is very, very certain and the day is slowly coming to when judgement will be executed.

16 hours ago, Cos said:

Remember also how He told the repentant thief, "Today you shall be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus promised the repentant thief that he would be in this place, the place where the faithful dead go. Scripture also tells us that when Christ ascended to heaven He took with Him the compartment of sheol where the faithful dead stayed in wait (Eph 4:8-9). 

Jesus did say that to the thief, but those in death do not go to some afterlife, otherwise that would defeat the very purpose of what Jesus says about himself and or the very fact he is the firstborn out of death, let alone being the first of the fruits, I mean, the cross-references to Luke 23:43 actually tells you that. Taking the words of Isaiah, like him, those in death with rise and sing praise to God and his chosen one. As for Ephesians 4:8-9 these captives are the ones of whom cares for the Church, that is the Christ, the chapter even tells you a couple of verses onward, they were not literally taken up on the day Jesus ascended, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of Jesus' own words about him being the only one to ascended (John 3:13) prior to those chosen, which began in Pentecost.

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

At Pentecost 33 C.E., the ascended Jesus, as God’s chosen one, the man who was a representative of God, began breaking down the house of Satan by carrying out those among the captive — the men who had long been in slavery the likes of sin and death and under Satan’s power and control. These captives became Christ’s slaves/servants without hesitation, doing the will of God with your whole soul. Jesus saved them from Satan’s control and, on Gods behalf, gave them to the Church as gifts in men and clearly this did not sit well with the Devil due to his control that has been tampered with and or broken, for no one can hold these captives and we have the Lord from God who saved such ones.

This is why we see this very fact seen in Ephesians 4:11

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,

This is also quoted in the Hebrew Old Testament, Psalms 68:18

You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the Lord God may dwell there.

h

16 hours ago, Cos said:

Also it is interesting to note that the Scriptures says that believers won’t die (John 6:50), but we all know that they still do. If Habakkuk 1:12 did read, “you do not die” it is clearly an idiom saying, you God are immortal and will exist forever. <><

Of course, God is immortal, as well as incorruptible, he cannot die, he is the life-giver, the God of both the living and the dead, and God himself can give life and does so by means of his Son, Jesus, in the future, he will grant life in a grander scale to those he remembers, to those who are in the book of life.

You fail to understand the passage from John 6:50. You really have to understand, and but into context what John 6:48-51 is showing, in not doing so, you make a response not even the most well educated Trinitarian would make, therefore, shows you are seeing this verse with a man's understanding.

When Jesus spoke about living forever and not dying, he was not referring that those who were listening to what he had to say would never experience the first death being the human death of which we experience from the age of Adam and Eve's disobedience to now. The  point Jesus was making was that having faith in him could lead to living forever, eternal life. This is why in this instance, Jesus called himself the bread of life. He continues to say something along the lines of that this bread of which he speaks, is the bread that has come down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die, he continues to make it known that He, Jesus, is the living bread that came down from heaven, if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever -  eternal life.

Any man would think that this concludes that Jesus was saying that they could avoid the experience of death, which is understandable, but again, one has to read and apply context to see what the passages really is saying, examining the evidence, if you will. The context itself pretty much is what I had already said. Jesus had just said this is the will of him that sent me, we know God sent Jesus, furthermore, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day, etc. Those, every man that beholds the God's Son and exercises faith in him should have eternal life, and He will resurrect him at the last day. No man can come to Him unless the Father, who sent him, draws him; and He will resurrect him in the last day, see John 6:39-44. Jesus said later on that he that feeds on his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life, and he shall resurrect him at the last day, see John 6:54. Hence, Jesus’ promise of living forever can be understood, should you accept it, Jesus would not be saying to the listeners that they would never experience death, that would be silly because even today man can and will eventually die, they fear death, but rather, Jesus was conveying the message to show us that there is indeed a way we have this bread, this wine, in turn, gain eternal life.

As for God, he can't die, you make want to check out 1 Timothy 1:17 (also Romans 1:23) also, as with all cross-references that speak of God's nature of incorruptibility/immortality. To say and or believe God can die, then you really do not believe THWH is God thus giving people the reason to think of the All-Powerful having flaws and or weak, like kryptonite to superman, you throw the green rock at him and he is not so powerful after that not to mention falling out of the sky like rain drop, but this is God we are talking about, the El Shaddai, he is All-Powerful and Great, nothing can weaken him nor can he weaken himself, for as Jesus puts it, God is good, and that God is greater than him, the very reason why you have many, even Satan grinding their teeth right now because they know what God is capable of doing, especially to them, erasing them from reality, if you will.

[Cos]

There is no mistake; Christ did not cease to exist when He was executed on the cross. The “ransom sacrifice” as some like to call it was by the shedding of His blood. The idea that death means you cease to exist is another clear example of how some will read into Scripture what has no biblical support.

 

 

 

Just as when they say the Holy Spirit is not a Person but a “power” with no biblical support. And then regardless of any rationality will claim that all the many times the Scriptures demonstrate the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, they say that these are personifications.

 

 

 

Some as usual go into a long incoherent tirade and avoid (play down) what Jesus says to maintain a false idea that is read into the Scriptures, and then they will later go on to claim that that “has already been addressed”. <><

[Space Merchant]

On 7/13/2018 at 10:50 PM, Cos said:

There is no mistake; Christ did not cease to exist when He was executed on the cross. The “ransom sacrifice” as some like to call it was by the shedding of His blood. The idea that death means you cease to exist is another clear example of how some will read into Scripture what has no biblical support.

The Christ did cease, to put it simple, him being corruptible had tasted death like any other man, but him being sinless opens a door that a born sinner could not, that being said, mainly if you understand what him being the Firstborn out of the Dead even means, if Christ did not cease, him, being the temple and or foundation, that would defeat the purpose of why he is called as such in the Bible itself. Indeed, some call it as such, they also refer to this a sacrifice, and or substitutionary atonement, so basically it is somewhat of a ransom, if you understand the context leading up to and of Jesus' death, then in turn, his resurrection. So technically speaking, all of those of mankind, those, well all, considered to have inherited sin and death as a result of Adam's sin in the Garden of Eden via disobedience, God's law requires that only the sacrificial death of a perfect, sinless human can atone the Adamic sin, in addition, faith in the ransom of Christ Jesus, known as The Last Adam (Second Adam) is regarded as the only way to atone for sin and escape death, even opens doors to forgiveness of sin and the like, as well as the New Covenant.

Other than that, death is a cease of all activity, for death itself is the obvious opposite of life. When you die, you die, to dust you cometh, to dust you returnth, and in death you have no sort of function and or consciousness whatsoever - hence the term, Pangs of Death.

God took Jesus out of the pangs of death by means of loosening it's grip on His Son, thus resurrecting the Lord himself - Risen Christ (Acts 2:24).

On 7/13/2018 at 10:50 PM, Cos said:

Just as when they say the Holy Spirit is not a Person but a “power” with no biblical support. And then regardless of any rationality will claim that all the many times the Scriptures demonstrate the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, they say that these are personifications.

There is biblical support, and it has been said a number of times, pages back, as well as full description of what it is. The nail to this personhood of the Holy Spirit is what Stephen had mentioned, that alone debunks the idea of the Holy Spirit being a Person, let alone, God. Other than that is is rather silly to make the claim in regards to 14 and 16 of John when one can easily understand the Greek Language Forms, and it is absurd to use Paul and others as examples when testimony and affirmation is as clear as day in this regard.

Therefore, the correction has been made.

On 7/13/2018 at 10:50 PM, Cos said:

Some as usual go into a long incoherent tirade and avoid (play down) what Jesus says to maintain a false idea that is read into the Scriptures, and then they will later go on to claim that that “has already been addressed”. <><

Think of it as you like, the information is both fact and true, after all, it was on your part such long detailed information was posed in such discussions to begin with. Jesus did indeed say to read into the scriptures, and he asks of us to believe in the one who has sent him, never has Jesus made the claim he is his Father and or something accursed, for it is known to everyone in this day and age of who Jesus is, and who is his Father.

That being said, the information in full detail it so show even to the guests who come here what is truth and what is not truth, with included Greek sources of Language forms of which you had made the choice to ignore and repeat yourself like a busted record, but it is true as to what they say, the truth hurts, and the truth is not for everyone, therefore, expect an actual detailed based source on the Holy Spirit in the coming weeks.

[Cos]

Jesus died on the cross but that does not mean He ceased to exist. The idea that at death Jesus ceased to exist has no scriptural backing, it must be read into the meaning of what death is.

 

Take for example on how some read Eccl 9:5, 10 and falsely concluding that the dead are conscious of nothing. Yet here Solomon was stating the way things appear “under the sun”, that is, from the human perspective alone (see Eccl. 1:2-3, 18).

 

Now the claim that “support” has been “supplied” for the idea that the Holy Spirit is a power is rather lacking. Nowhere in Scripture does it say “the Holy Spirit is a power” or “the Holy Spirit is the power of God”. Nowhere!

 

The only passages that have been allegedly “supplied”, to date, are those passages where that idea must be read into them. None actually say what is claim. Search through the Scriptures and nowhere is this idea forthcoming, nowhere.

 

So to establish my point, show where in Scriptures it says “the Holy Spirit is a power” or “the Holy Spirit is the power of God”?

 

In fact there are a number of passages that show how absurd this idea actually is, Acts 10:38 for example, which would read “anointing with power and power”. <><

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, Cos said:

Jesus died on the cross but that does not mean He ceased to exist. The idea that at death Jesus ceased to exist has no scriptural backing, it must be read into the meaning of what death is.

Jesus did die, if you have forgotten, Jesus was a man, thus being corruptible,

• Luke 23:46 - Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Moreover, Jesus spoke of his death, being killed and the fact he will raise up again, resurrection (Luke 9:22–27) even foretold it, again in other passages, even when troubled, knowing the day is upon him only for God to comfort him (John 12:27), the reason as to why Jesus is said, several times, to be the Firstborn out of the Dead (Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:23, Revelations 1:5, Romans 8:29 , Hebrews 11:28, 12:23) and Jesus himself made mention of this position about him being the Living one who has died and had risen, also him having the keys to Hades (Revelation 1:18), to say otherwise is teaching something accursed that even your own Trinitarian brothers would not dare to say. Be it you believe he died on a cross, a tree or a stake, what is there is a man, who cried out to his Father, and died, for as for all who have died, even Jesus himself, go to Hades (according to Jews, buried in Sheol). Jesus' cries in pain and suffering was foretold, see Psalms 22:1, which points back to what he had said prior to his death while suffering. We also see such in description of God being the one taking Jesus out of death as seen in Hebrews 5:7,and if we are to follow what Paul has said, he has made this clear in nearly all of which he had written, mainly in Acts.

What death is, is a state of no function, the opposite of life, that of which is corruptible, life/flesh, is subjected to succumb to death itself.

And actually the Bible makes it clear, for 3 days, Jesus himself slept in Hades and on the final day, he had risen. There is a reason why the belief in life and the resurrection is indeed a thing regarding the Christ,for he had conquered death, thus being the first of the fruits, firstborn out of the dead, hence his state when he had been raised and eventually ascended back to heaven.

We also have to remember that Jesus died so that humans could have their sins forgiven and receive eternal life. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 1:7) Jesus’ death also proved that a human can remain loyal to God the Father even when faced with many forms of trials putting them to the test (Hebrews 4:15).

Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins. (Colossians 1:14). He died so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16). the Christ became obedient to the point of death, thus proving that a human could be faithful to God the Father under any test or trial. (Philippians 2:8).

We also have to not forget that Death at the hands of Roman torturers and executioners was certain and could come from several causes. Jesus had been beaten repeatedly and lashed with a Roman scourge before His crucifixion (Matthew 27:26). The leather scourge, a type of whip, was designed to inflict the maximum amount of pain and damage possible on to the victim, which in this case, had been inflicted upon Jesus. It was also braided with bone and metal pieces woven into the ends that tore into the flesh with each stroke, its as painful as it gets. The scourge would rip into the underlying muscles and produce strips of quivering, bleeding flesh.

Church Father Eusebius, reported that the sufferer’s veins were laid bare, and the very muscles, sinews, and bowels of the victim were open to exposure, and it is known that many victims would die from the scourging before they could be crucified.

Extreme pain, mixed together with blood loss, would often cause the victim to go into shock, for his blood pressure would drop and cause fainting, collapse and intense thirst. In the Gospels accounts, Jesus experienced these symptoms on His way to Golgotha (Skull Rock). Weakened to the point of collapse, He couldn’t bear the weight of the device of which he is to be crucified on, of which he was carrying and a bystander, Simon (of Cyrene), was forced to carry it part of the way for Him as seen in Mark 15:21. When He was crucified, He said, I thirst , see John 19:28. He had already suffered beatings on a level of savagery before the scourging. At His trial before the Sanhedrin, they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, saying that Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?, see Matthew 26:67-68. When they turned Him over to the Roman soldiers, they further brutalized Him, beating Him with their fists, slapping Him and shoving a crown of thorns on His head, see Matthew 27:29-30; Mark 15:16-19; John 19:3. The extent of this beating is indicated in the prophecy

• Isaiah 50:6 - I gave my back to those who strike, and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard; I hid not my face from disgrace and spitting.

Another, more explicit and yet graphic prophecy:

• Isaiah 52:14 - As many were astonished at you— his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—

This pretty much tells you that Jesus was badly beaten, so bloodied and maimed, that he was scarcely recognizable as a human being, for that is how bad it was, how the brutality level was through the roof in this sense.

Furthermore, his accusers had a thirst for blood (John 19:1-6). But their hatred of the bloodied man from Nazareth could only be satisfied, hence why they insisted the crucifixion.

Jesus suffered in agony, The prophecy of Christ’s suffering is seen in Psalms 22:14 and it refers to His tortured condition.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

Take for example on how some read Eccl 9:5, 10 and falsely concluding that the dead are conscious of nothing. Yet here Solomon was stating the way things appear “under the sun”, that is, from the human perspective alone (see Eccl. 1:2-3, 18).

Solomon verses connect to Psalms 39:5 and Romans 8:20. Also of what Solomon's says has nothing to do of what is spoken of about the Dead, the same can be said of what the Law itself speaks of regarding those in death. verse 18 is about an abundance of wisdom, thus connecting correctly with these 2 passages in the same book, 2:15 and 12:12, therefore, these verses have no connection with Eccl. 9:5, 10, for a passage speaks of death coming to all and no activity in Hades while the other passage, regarding what Solomon had said makes no connection to death and the grave whatsoever.

under the sun appearing in chapter 9 is related to what we do in life because when we die we cannot do things we did in life. A dead man cannot care for his child, a dead man cannot work with his hands, however, only those, under the sun, alive and roaming about the earth can do these things, but once dead and buried into Sheol, sent to Hades, you can't really do anything. Chapter 5 also makes mention of those who, under the sun, eating and drinking, enjoying the work of their hands from hard work. An expression does not really change what a passage is conveying, so the remark about Solomon is unfounded.

Regarding chapter 9, death is applied to both humans and animals, even the Law in the Torah makes mention of death and or perishing, even making claim to the fact that the law of which the people followed, they themselves knew the opposite of life itself, is death, it is not something entirely different and or a mystery, in fact, the Bible speaks of it explicitly, as well as referring to death as an enemy.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

Now the claim that “support” has been “supplied” for the idea that the Holy Spirit is a power is rather lacking. Nowhere in Scripture does it say “the Holy Spirit is a power” or “the Holy Spirit is the power of God”. Nowhere!

Actually it is not lacking, it was mention several times, you simply chose to ignore it as well as the biblical description of the Holy Spirit, it being out-poured to the people, etc. Example Genesis Act of Creation (even Trinitarians know about this one so it is odd for you to ignore such), and or the fact that Jesus, having the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is able to perform the works by which the power of the Spirit enables him to do and the very fact that God the Father abides in him. Believe such was mention 3-4 times, but you just brush over it.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

The only passages that have been allegedly “supplied”, to date, are those passages where that idea must be read into them. None actually say what is claim. Search through the Scriptures and nowhere is this idea forthcoming, nowhere.

What was supplied have been mentioned several times, it is clear you are ignoring it.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

So to establish my point, show where in Scriptures it says “the Holy Spirit is a power” or “the Holy Spirit is the power of God”?

Check out what was already addressed for about 4-5 times now. See below, perhaps read it this time instead of ignoring it because at this point everything you made mention of, even of Jesus' death, has been refuted, thus correcting you.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

In fact there are a number of passages that show how absurd this idea actually is, Acts 10:38 for example, which would read “anointing with power and power”. <><

Again, already been explained several times, mainly if the verse is taken into context, clearly, again, it shows you are ignoring because if you are bringing this up again, it just proves my point even further.

 

I will post the response here.... again, and pinpoint your first mention to show people here you are repeating yourself even after being corrected:

This has been answered between May 12th-13th (found under page 19 of this topic)

You made mention of this before, reading into the text without understand context, I will say it again in all caps for you - CONTEXT.

 

A copy of the response to what you seem to not understand:

Quote

Acts 10:38 has cross-references, really strong ones. Also making this response "anointing with power and power" is pretty weak, if you really knew what the Holy Spirit is capable of and what it has been used to do, etc. it would be clear to you.

God was with him, Jesus, especially during his ministry and the like via said power.

FACT: Many scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as the power of God (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8). Apostle Paul told Timothy that it is the spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind in 2 Timothy 1:7 (added emphasis).

• 2 Timothy 1:7  - for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

FACT: In the gospel of Luke, Luke 4:14, it records that Jesus Christ began His ministry in the power of the Spirit. Luke 1:35 identifies the Holy Spirit with the power that is of the Highest. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you.

Acts 1:8 - But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

FACT: Simon Peter relates how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, [and Jesus] went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him, as seen in Acts 10:38 (pertaining to the above). The Holy Spirit is here associated with the power by which God was with Him— the power through which Jesus Christ performed mighty miracles during His earthly, physical ministry. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God's power actively working in His servants. The apostle Paul's desire was that the members of the Church in Rome would abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit, in the same way that Jesus Christ had worked through him in mighty signs and wonders , by the power of the Spirit of God (Romans 15:13, 19).

Answer to Acts 10:38 found here:

 

[sami]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:50 PM, Cos said:

There is no mistake; Christ did not cease to exist when He was executed on the cross. The “ransom sacrifice” as some like to call it was by the shedding of His blood. The idea that death means you cease to exist is another clear example of how some will read into Scripture what has no biblical support.

 

 

 

Just as when they say the Holy Spirit is not a Person but a “power” with no biblical support. And then regardless of any rationality will claim that all the many times the Scriptures demonstrate the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, they say that these are personifications.

 

 

 

Some as usual go into a long incoherent tirade and avoid (play down) what Jesus says to maintain a false idea that is read into the Scriptures, and then they will later go on to claim that that “has already been addressed”. <><

 

 

Koine Greek: PNEUMA - Hebrew: RUACH?

In the Christian Greek texts "pneuma" is always designated as a neuter noun - meaning the writers understood it as a what or a which but never a who, let alone a he or him [note for clarification for those who would hope to salvage the "who" for trinity purposes, ho parakleetos is a descriptive masculine noun used in reference to the neuter noun pneuma in John 14:16, 26 and John 15:26. The demonstrative pronoun of ho parakleetos is ekeinos, meaning "that" or "that one." The author has appropriately used ekeinos in reference to ho parakleetos as "that one," whereas most translations incorrectly translate ekeinos as "He." ]

This is consistent with the Hebrew cognate ruach [the Hebrew word you often see translated as "spirit"], which merely means, literally, in its concrete, an impersonal force which enacts upon other things. Like the "wind" which enacts upon the leaves of a tree and appears to make the tree animate. "Wind" is in fact how the word ruach is first used in the biblical text in Genesis.

One example: John 3:8, "“The wind [pneuma] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit [pneuma].” [ESV].

The same word and gender and form is used in both places. In one instance, those performing the English translation hold true to existing koine Greek grammatical rules - and in the second instance, they blatantly depart from those rules - any suppositions as to why?

[Cos]

Jesus died on the cross, but that does not mean He ceased to exist. What Jesus says in Luke 23:46, “into your hands I commit my spirit” means, in fact, that even though His body died His spirit continued existing. This can be seen from the stoning of Stephen.

 

“And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit’” (Acts 7:59). This verse virtually makes no sense if you interpret that Stephen ceased to exist at the moment of his death. Why would Stephen pray to Jesus to “receive” what was about to cease existing?

 

Then there is the claim that “Jesus himself slept in Hades”. This claim ignores many Scriptures. Anyway let’s look at this; sleeping is NOT the cessation of personal existence as some seem to assume. Death is compared to sleep because the person “sleeping” is not aware of the physical realm.

 

Anyway none of what the claimant says shows that death means the person ceases to exist.

 

Now, I am being accused of ignoring what actually is not stated.

 

I hold that nowhere in Scripture does it say “the Holy Spirit is a power” or “the Holy Spirit is the power of God”. Nowhere! Every passage where the idea the Holy Spirit is a power must be read in into them.

 

First one that I supposedly ignored, Zechariah 4:6 “He then said to me: ‘This is the word of Jehovah to Zerubbabel: ‘“Not by force, nor by power, but by my Spirit,” says Jehovah of armies.’”

Now I don’t see in this passage where it says the Holy Spirit is a power, unless one reads that idea into the verse, in fact just substitute the word “Spirit” with the word “power” and you will see how absurd such an idea actually is!

 

Next is Micah 3:8, again the idea must be read into the verse, in fact being filled “with power BY the Spirit” shows that “power’ and the “Spirit” are NOT synonymous.

 

2 Tim. 1:7 again is reading into the passage that “a spirit” is supposedly the “the Spirit”. Here “a spirit” is the proper temperament and character formed in Paul and Timothy. Simple test; “for God gave us a power not of fear but of power…” once again an absurd idea read into 2 Tim 1:7.

 

It is claimed Luke 4:14 “records” that Jesus “began His ministry in the power of the {power}” Once again this demonstrates the absurdity of the idea that is being read into the passage of Luke 4:14.

 

Next claim is that Luke 1:35 “identifies the Holy Spirit with the power that is of the Highest” Let’s note that this verse is NOT saying that the Holy Spirit is synonymous with the “power”, that idea must be read into the verse.

 

FACT; Luke 1:35 is not saying “The Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest”.

 

In Romans 1:16 the Scriptures are called the power of God; “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation…” but everyone knows that they are not used interchangeably synonymous in this verse but are two distinct things: "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God." Matt. 22:29.

 

 The Scriptures were the source of the Jews doctrinal misunderstandings and God's power would raise all men from the dead at the second coming. To demand that Scriptures and God's power are interchangeably synonymous in Matt. 22:29 is just as wrong as claiming the Holy Spirit and power are interchangeably synonymous in Luke 1:35.

 

Acts 1:8 is another text I supposedly ignored; again one must read into this passage the idea that ‘power” and “the Holy Spirit” are interchangeably synonymous when the two are not.

 

As can be seen these verses, which I supposedly ignored, must have the idea that the Holy Spirit is a “power” read into them.

 

Nowhere in Scripture does it say “the Holy Spirit is a power” or “the Holy Spirit is the power of God” unless one reads that idea into a passage or text. <><