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The Holy Spirit


Cos

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Mr Rook,

 

You don’t appreciate the warning I gave that’s your prerogative; my question is how can you blasphemy “a force” or a “field of energy”?

 

You know, you go on about “common sense truth” but to date you have not provided any, and your excuse for appealing to a Hollywood film to “bend scripture” to support your agenda does not comprise of “reason” or “logic” and certainly NOT “common sense”!

 

All you have done is use worldly terminologies, applied your misguided reasoning to them and then say that that is common sense, more like circular reasoning.

 

I am willing to discuss any Bible teaching with you, but don’t try to excuse your reading back worldly terminology into Bible words or using Hollywood films as some trustworthy “frames of references” because that claim is just plain ridiculous.

 

One more thing I’d like to point you to Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29.<><

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Cos: What you have stated is OPINION.  You have proved NOTHING, except that you can type. Both God and Christ have a personal name ... what is the Holy Spirit's name .... Casper? If so,

The quote referenced above reads: "In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is identified as God’s power in action. Hence, an accurate translation of the Bible’s Hebrew text refers to God’s spirit as “God’s ac

Claims of irrationality have always been levelled against witnesses who have experienced Gods great gift. "And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to thos

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Cos:

Reason and logic only works on men that are reasonable and logical.

Bluntness only works on men of integrity ... the rest are offended.

Parallel examples are only discerned by men who think in parallel, not serial thinkers.

Contemporary cultural movie references are only effective for those that discern any moral truths that may underlay the script.

As Struther Martin said in the movie "Cool Hand Luke" .... "What we got here ... is... FAILURE ... to communicate.".

 

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20 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Rev.13:4. How can you blaspheme a name or residence?

Gone fishing,

 

I think you are referring to Rev. 13:6?

 

“Blaspheme His name”, implies a mocking of God’s character because the blasphemy is directed at a Person.

 

Also the verse does not mean blaspheme of the “residence” but to those persons that reside there.

 

“And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell (Greek skēnoō, tabernacle) in heaven” (Rev. 13:6).

 

And so, my question still stands; how can you blasphemy “a force” or a “field of energy” (Matt. 12:31)?

 

Also Gone fishing, my other question to you is still pending an answer; is there a contradiction when in one place the Watchtower say that the Holy Spirit “is not Jehovah’s ‘power’”, yet elsewhere the Watchtower say that the Holy Spirit “is identified as God’s power”? <><

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Correct! I meant Rev 13:6. Thanks for that.

Interesting, the jury seems out on the rendering of that verse, with a number of translations presenting it as a list of Gods name and dwelling and those who dwell there, with commentators noting difficulty also. It seems that theology will govern one's understanding here which is apparent in your explanation as:

2 hours ago, Cos said:

...the verse does not mean blaspheme of the “residence” but to those persons that reside there

where you are stating your opinion as fact.  Your opinion is interesting, but not one I share.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

is there a contradiction when in one place the Watchtower say that the Holy Spirit “is not Jehovah’s ‘power’”, yet elsewhere the Watchtower say that the Holy Spirit “is identified as God’s power”?

This was already discussed? Just repeating more or less what was said earlier here:

Power = Power in action? Maybe to you, but not the same thing in my understanding. "Power" is potential. " Power in action" is something else, the demonstration or application of that potential. They are different, hence, only your selective phrasing creates a contradiction.

Basically, we disagree on the definition of Holy Spirit and I remain as unconvinced of your view as you do of mine.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

 Your opinion is interesting, but not one I share.

Gone fishing,

 

Maybe you would like to study Rev. 13:6? I’d be willing to go through this with you in more detail if you like?

 

2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

They are different, hence, only your selective phrasing creates a contradiction.

It is quite amusing how quoting exactly from the Watchtower, on what they say regarding the Holy Spirit, is turned around to be my “selective phrasing” that somehow makes the contradiction.

 

Power is power whether it is in use or not. For example the power stored in a battery (potential) is the same power when the battery is in use. Yes or no?

2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Basically, we disagree on the definition of Holy Spirit and I remain as unconvinced of your view as you do of mine.

 

You once told me that you wouldn’t have known of the Holy Spirit “had not Jesus explained the matter” in John’s Gospel and that you are “happy with what he said”. Yet it is quite definite from those passages that Jesus does not explain the Holy Spirit as some kind of power! <><

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21 hours ago, Cos said:

Power is power whether it is in use or not. For example the power stored in a battery (potential) is the same power when the battery is in use. Yes or no?

 

No ... it's not ... that is why there are MANY different types and sizes of 12v batteries that you can buy, all at the same auto parts store ... once you put a load on them, that POTENTIAL energy behaves quite differently when actually doing work.

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21 hours ago, Cos said:

Maybe you would like to study Rev. 13:6? I’d be willing to go through this with you in more detail if you like?

 

Thanks for the offer but, as even those professing an understanding of the Greek cannot agree on this text, my schedule won't run to revisiting all the arguments. As I said, one's understanding of Scriptural context will dictate the conclusion on matters like this anyway.

21 hours ago, Cos said:

Yet it is quite definite from those passages that Jesus does not explain the Holy Spirit as some kind of power!

You see, this is YOUR opinion, to which you are entitled. Although I shared your view at one time, (not expressed in such detail), I now differ as to my understanding of Jesus' teaching on this matter and, (ironically), consider Holy Spirit to have been an enlightening factor in this, as it was certainly not involved in the imparting of my previously held concepts on the subject.

21 hours ago, Cos said:

my “selective phrasing” that somehow makes the contradiction

Your selective phrasing is to assume "power" as a synonym for the phrase "power in action", and to quote other phrases using either term as synonomous. By omitting the qualifying phrase "in action",  you create a contradiction by comparing in parallel phrases that are actually describing different elements. To place "power" against "power(in action)" is actually an "apples and oranges" comparison. The terms although related, are different. Now, "power in action"  is synonomous with the word "force" however, and these can be substituted for each other.

The concept of "force" has been defined as something that "only exists as a result of an interaction'", and thus for me adequately describes the relationship between God's Almighty power (His potential) and His Holy Spirit, the force, which is His power applied (or, "in action"), to accomplish His will. His Power is Almighty, without limitation. His spirit acomplishes a variety of operations, and is His power applied to the extent required at any particular moment. Thus Holy Spirit is limited to the demands of the moment and task at hand, otherwise it would be destructive. (Also, Scripture identifies  the need for those who have it already to pray for more).

So that explains my understanding which for me harmonises wth all the scriptural references I have seen both literal and figurative, be they descriptive or allegorical. Other explanations I find inadequate, or contradictory, or both.

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3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Thanks for the offer

Hi Gone fishing,

 

That’s a shame for it is a very interesting study; nonetheless as the passage in question is as you claim based on “one’s understanding of Scripture” I can’t help but think that it was just another "knee jerk" reaction (for lack of a better term) appealing to that passage in response to me question?

 

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I now differ as to my understanding of Jesus' teaching on this matter

 

Please, Gone fishing, can you show me where in John Gospel when Jesus explains about the coming of the Holy Spirit that makes you now “understand” that Jesus was not referring to a person but instead to a mystical “force” of some kind?

 

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Now, "power in action"  is synonomous with the word "force" however, and these can be substituted for each other.

 

This idea of “power in action”, which you identify with “force” is the meanings given for dynamei (or dunamis).

 

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance of the English and Greek Testament states that δύναμις (dynamei) is “not merely power capable of action, but, power in action

 

Also when you looking up the word δύναμις (dynamei Strong 1411) this word signifies “force”, see Strong’s Dictionary.

 

In fact Paul mostly uses the word δύναμις (dynamei) for divine force in action. (Rom 1:16. 9:22, 1 Cor. 4:20 etc).

 

Abbot-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the NT lists among the meanings for δύναμις “of power in action

 

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon says that δύναμις is also that “which a person or thing exerts and puts forth"

 

Therefore, in Luke 1:35 where it says “power of the Most High” is this “power” (dynamei) in action as it “overshadows Mary? Is action ascribed to “power of the Most High” in Luke 1:35?

 

Either the “power of the Most High” is in action, or it’s not?

 

Also, is dynamei (power) in Acts 10:38, as in Luke 1:35, in action? <><

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1 hour ago, Cos said:

just another "knee jerk" reaction (for lack of a better term)

Dear dear Cos. you are fond of these rather demeaning responses aren't you? Is this how you were taught?

1 hour ago, Cos said:

can you show me where in John Gospel when Jesus explains about the coming of the Holy Spirit that makes you now “understand” that Jesus was not referring to a person but instead to a mystical “force” of some kind?

"mystical" eh? Now that's a word my Trinitarian religious teacher used in answer to questions I had on the Trinity doctorine at school!

With regard to your request, it is the entire discussion provided by Jesus on the subject. His words for me stand alone without any need for me to amplify or explain.

1 hour ago, Cos said:

Either the “power of the Most High” is in action, or it’s not

I'm quite happy with your definition. Although I would add that Jehovah's power does not cease to exist when it is not in action.

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