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Jehovahs witnesses and higher education by Gerritt Loesch

Talk by 

    Hello guest!
, member of the 
    Hello guest!
 of 
    Hello guest!
 given in Italian during a special JW convention on May 22, 2005 in the city of Monza, near Milan, Italy. He expresses the official JW view on higher education.

——

I posted this in response to 

    Hello guest!
over the years. Thanks to Ann O’Mally for finding it.

Agape!

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ON COMPETENT ADVICE:

it is up to EVERY INDIVIDUAL Brother and Sister to review in their own mind how COMPETENT this advice was .... because it has not changed ...

Taking sound, reality based advice will, barring chance and unforeseen circumstances, make your life better, happier, EASIER, and more fulfilling. Most of the REAL PROBLEMS I have had in my life have been caused by being poor, and constantly STRUGGLING to keep gainfully employed.

Gainfully employed in THIS day and age is not the same as in the time of John the Baptist, where you could dress in rags, live in a hole in the ground, and eat locusts (YUM!), and die of exhaustion, deprivation, starvation ( No, I'm FASTING! ...uh... yeah... uh... that's it .. uh "fasting!") .and disease, and a LONG life for the average genetically disposed person was around age 34 and you were full of infection of every sort, and your teeth had rotted out of you head.  You walked everywhere, and died on the side of the road from exposure.

It is up to EVERY INDIVIDUAL Brother and Sister to review in their own mind how COMPETENT this advice was .... because it has not changed.    

The RESULTS of taking INCOMPETENT ADVICE are completely  indistinguishable from being chained to deliberate, premeditated evil.

The Three Elders who came and counseled Job for three days did not just sit in the dirt and stare at him for 72 hours ... they were yapping their heads off ... but after three days ... nothing they said was worth recording.

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Dirt Vaccinated.jpg

13 Fractions Permitted .jpg

Bethel Food Service Crew.jpg

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On 4/1/2016 at 0:20 AM, The Librarian said:

Jehovahs witnesses and higher education by Gerritt Loesch

Put yourself in the latte category if you are spiritual and you want to go to college. But in general, we try to get our specialized education a la carte, since the 4 or 6 year experience packages acknowleged gems in a dumptruck load of turds. 

Put yourself in the latter category if you are spiritual and you want to go to college. But in general, we try to get our specialized education a la carte, since the 4 or 6 year experience packages acknowleged gems in a dumptruck load of turds. 

Put yourself in the latte category if you like to break at Starbucks in service.

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On 2/23/2017 at 9:59 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

On 2/23/2017 at 9:59 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Most of the REAL PROBLEMS I have had in my life have been caused by being poor, and constantly STRUGGLING to keep gainfully employed.

To undergo such a struggle and to think, rightly or wrongly, that it would have been different with greater education, is a significant grievance. To stay loyal under such circumstances shows a laudable love of God.

I got around all this by not learning the truth until after my education days were done. Today Witness parents are encouraged to take an active role in their offspring's future plans so that they will be able to support themselves decently. But that was not so much the case in the past. Guiding one's child in career or job choice was often a catch as catch can affair - many parents did not do it, sometimes through neglect, but usually through inexperience.

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2 hours ago, Jay Witness said:

Talk by 

    Hello guest!
, member of the 
    Hello guest!
 of 
    Hello guest!
 given in Italian during a special JW convention on May 22, 2005 in the city of Monza, near Milan, Italy. He expresses the official JW view on higher education.

Going to college and hoping to survive it is like putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger to commit suicide and inadvertently surviving and blowing away the part of your brain that was making you think you should commit suicide in the first place.

Or is he saying?

Choosing to go to college is like choosing to commit suicide by shooting yourself in the head and then excusing your suicidal actions by pointing out that at least one person you know survived a bullet to the brain and even lived a better life after the suicide attempt.

The first option sounds like college has the uncanny ability to solve even the most serious problems with surgical precision. Of course, he actually means the second option.

 

If you are already in college, we won't tell you to drop out, but we commend you if you do.

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He reiterated this again just today!

Gerrit Lösch gives a special talk the Norval Assembly Hall in Georgetown Canada

There were 2 sisters who got up and had a dramatization about a sister not wanting to go to College. I will paraphrase as best as I can.

High School Counselor: ''Have a seat Karen and I will show you all the College applications I have for you.''

Sister: ''Thank you for all the work you have done.''

Counselor: '' I have an application from Harvard,one from Michigan University,and a couple from the East Coast.''

Sister: '' I have done alot of thinking and decided not to go to any College."

Counselor: ''Karen,you have a 4.0 grade average and scored very high on the A.C.T. and you would have no problem getting into any of these schools."

Sister: '' As you know,I'm a Jehovah's Witness and we believe that we are near the ''end times.'' I decided that I will go into the preaching work part time and maybe go to a 2 year school."

Counselor: ''You will probably get into these schools at almost no cost because of your 4.0 average and high A.C.T. scores and have a good career the rest of your life.These are great schools and will prepare you to land a good job.''

Sister: ''This world is passing by and may not be here any longer. I decided to enter the ministry work and Jehovah God will provide for me in the future."

 

He brought up the fact that "70% of freshman go to post-secondary for MORE MONEY" - of course this is what ppl focus on when going to post-secondary. Does he seriously expect people to make over $20/hour without a post-secondary education, with the exception of trades? (I know you can get a good salary without post-secondary but this is increasingly hard to do in the 2010s) I guess we all should be making minimum wage for the rest of our lives and focus on pioneering!

Including the musical interlude, Watchtower summary, Canada stats, and Losch's talk, the program was 2h 40m..

----------

 

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The statistics he used in that talk were used in a 1988 awake where they quoted from a 1988 New York Times article.

Awake: 

    Hello guest!

cc8755c6d2437fbc0eb724691a40d3c5?s=580

Every person that has heard Losch spout his "statistics" needs to understand where and when these statistics were compiled. The survey he quotes is from 30 years ago. The same survey also showed that there was also a rise in freshmen who supported laws against homosexuality (53%), and a decline of support for legalization of marijuana ... clearly showing what different time period it is from. Link: 

    Hello guest!

Besides the fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong with hoping to make more money after graduating college, these statistics are grossly out of date. The survey was directed by Dr. Alexander W. Astin for the Higher Education Research Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles.

The key word here is "annual". They conduct the exact same survey every year. It would be very easy for them to use more current data. The funny thing is that the question about money being a motivating factor is up to 72.6%, but it is not the most motivating factor. Here is the most current freshman survey for anyone interested. It is from 2016: 

    Hello guest!

I haven't found the table for the 1988 data, but here is the table from 2016, so you can see how the question was asked and results tabulated. The first screen shot is of the actual question that is asked of freshmen. The second screenshot is of the results for 2016.

48daa38b9d7209d7ea4d1219401fe983?s=478

4c490217107fcbdfc796b430432973f5?s=565

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14 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

"70% of freshman go to post-secondary for MORE MONEY"

Yikes. Good catch, Jack. The persons who wrote and checked the Awake! article in 1988 were probably not dishonest, but they more likely just had no understanding about statistics and how this type of question is used in social surveys.

The question has very little to do with the actual percent of students who hope that college gives them an opportunity for making more money -- which is probably always closer to 100%. Most pre-college students are making from $0 a year during High School or less than $1000/year in part time jobs. 100% of them SHOULD hope to make more money, even if they don't go to college for this purpose. Even more so if they are purposely or inadvertently preparing to follow the Bible's admonition:

    • Hello guest!
    Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.

The way the question is presented, however, it is possible for all students to say that 100% of them go to college for more money AND that 100% of them go to college for a better job AND that 100% go to learn things of interest AND that 100% go to please their family, etc. The idea is to try to get a feel for the priorities that are in a students head as they are just starting college. A student could conceivably claim that every one of those reasons was "Very Important."

All the survey above actually shows is what you said about how it only compares relative importance of motivational factors. It certainly does not say that only 70-some percent went to college to make more money. And the Awake! article is misleading when it says "spiritual goals declining." They probably were, but this survey says nothing about comparing these particular goals with their spiritual goals. Also, as noted above, providing for one's own, especially one's household is a spiritual goal according to 1 Timothy 5:8, or might even be considered by that verse to be MORE IMPORTANT than faith.

All that question is really allowing us to see is that students either think that several other factors are more important than money, or that they are not willing to admit that money is as important as it probably is, especially when asked to weigh it against less crass and better-sounding motivations.

When I hired people to work on my teams in IT departments (1985 to 2015), I didn't care too much whether a person went to college or not, as long as they could show the correct aptitude for technical testing, logic, programming, designing, data analysis, etc. But over the years, I began to appreciate that, in choosing among those of similar technical skills, those who went to college were almost always preferable. Even if it were for a degree in English, drama, psychology, education, sociology, etc., they were more likely to have better communication skills and more of what was more important to me: an "appreciation of ideas" (the second option of the survey). I would not have cared WHY they went to college, even if it was please their parents, or study for a career they no longer wanted, or even if they had already failed in a previous career.

Of course, college holds out the hope and promise of better or at least a wider array of employment opportunities. But this is not always the way things work out. In the United States, both the educational and financial institutions are always looking for ways to profit off students by taking a percentage of any increased income they might get from college. Student loans are managed by these institutions to maximize the profit from each student. Colleges also maximize the amount of tuition that they can get away with. 

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20 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I believe you are sincere and that this was your experience and now your honest perspective that you are giving.

Thanks. Of course, you should be careful to follow such a statement with "But . . . " at least for the sake of certain opposers.

Anyway, agree completely with everything you said above. I don't believe that, in the United States, most college degrees are worth the outrageous expense. They definitely were worth it through most of the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's if you were also an "educated consumer." There was a turning point in the 90's for some and in the 00's for most others, even before the financial crash became visible in '08. Starting in '08 it would be much easier to make a Peter Schiff style video. (That style of video can be made any time, of course, even when you want to fake a point, but you'd have to do a lot more editing to make it look like there was a consensus. Jay Leno could have proven that no college student knew that 2+2=4 merely by only including those who answered incorrectly, or with too long a pause, or were drunk, acting silly, nervous, etc.)

Now there are still more jobs available to college graduates than non-graduates of course, and this is even more critical in an economic downturn. But that doesn't mean the degree was worth the expense. And it's stupid that you would need a degree to make coffee at Starbucks.

The need to pay down a student loan does indeed make workers more controllable. That's a critical requirement of capitalists who wish to maximize profit even squeezing from those who believe they are well on the way to joining the "American Dream" someday. Student loans and car loans have been a big part of an abusive process to those who need them, but these problems are nowhere as big as the factors that fed 2008. Combined with the fact that the [banking&finance] criminals who abused taxpayers in 2008 are still fighting [bribing politicians] to be able to abuse with even less regulation now might though combine with student loans as a catalyst with these other problems to see a second wave [plunge] of recession/depression.

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10 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

Elders will be deleted if a family member is pursuing a university education. 2nd paragraph bullet point 3. 

Not really. It says that the question of deletion will be raised if a member of his family is pursuing a university education. The question arises as to whether the elder supported the decision emotionally or financially while the child was (or is) still under his roof. In cases where the elder makes it clear that the child will be living on their own immediately after college, and that it was their own "adult" decision, he might still be considered as not having his "household in subjection." Still, if his reputation as a family head is intact, and his counsel is still respected by other families -- because they know he himself opposes university education and did what he could, then he will not be deleted. If it is clear that others will say, "Why can't my child go to the university, after all, your child is going?" then he cannot serve as a good example. As you can imagine, this is not consistently applied, which creates further accusations of injustice.

There have been cases where the spouse of an elder goes, and the elder was not dismissed. This was more of an unwritten rule for the past several years, so it's possible that the Circuit Overseer's have stricter instructions as of 2017.

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It is surely horses for courses?

I know of pioneers who did it whilst at Uni, (the grant paid more than a part time job). JW college lecturers etc.

" Avoid dogmatic viewpoints or quick decisions based on personal preferences" is the counsel..... and jealousy I would add.

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College education seems to be on a decline nowadays, for people are trying to find other alternatives, some join the military and or the navy, so it is a mixed bag. There are those who work and teach themselves a trade and or something to land them the job.

What matters is to provide for yourself, your family, cloth yourself, feed yourself, keep a roof on your head, etc.

A friend of mine is working for Microsoft, and he taught himself, worked for and got the certs all this while relaxing at mom and dad's house until the checks started to roll in and he moved out at the age of 29.

I know for IT if you land some certs you pretty much get for foot in the door, especially if it is anything to do with Microsoft or Cisco.

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On 7/4/2017 at 12:06 AM, JW Insider said:

If you are already in college, we won't tell you to drop out, but we commend you if you do.

I know (knew :),  2 JW  sisters (siblings). They came from small town near Zagreb, in my ex congregation. One of them finished higher education. In meantime she found, meet (i don't know exactly how) one brother from USA,  he was/is in Betel headquarter NY. She married to him and went to Brooklyn headquarter ( i think this took place before  cca 5-8 years).

Her sister stayed in Zagreb, quit education in a middle of study or before ending, not sure, and she went to Zagreb Betel. I don't know if she is still in, because WT reduced Betel stuff before few years, and many was  gone in pioneer service  or looking for secular job. 

By what, whose  man commendation, recommendation, advice, friendly support? Or by own stupidity? Or both?

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@Srecko Sostar By no ones recommendation. Granted if the care for God and giving oneself up to God in Sacred and Devoted Service is an option to such ones, it isn't a crime to do that. God's Son gave command to adhere to the Great Commission, it is a command not to be taken lightly, let alone being like that of a living sacrifice in terms of total service to God.

So it wouldn't be stupidity, granted with if one is aware of the situation with higher education in the US itself. No one is going to stop anyone however I think the concern is being spiritually weak and the possibly to being open to what the Freemasons are doing in the schools regarding prepping young ones via frat houses and the like if such are selected. Another fear would be sexual immorality i.e. You can have a daughter going to Rutgers and she will possibly be a target, granted a lot of things of the like is taking place, and lastly, Gang-Stalking, it does not only happen to people of color or racial background, nor does it only take place in the churches, it happens in the schools too.

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12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

@Srecko Sostar By no ones recommendation. Granted if the care for God and giving oneself up to God in Sacred and Devoted Service is an option to such ones, it isn't a crime to do that. God's Son gave command to adhere to the Great Commission, it is a command not to be taken lightly, let alone being like that of a living sacrifice in terms of total service to God.

So it wouldn't be stupidity, granted with if one is aware of the situation with higher education in the US itself. No one is going to stop anyone however I think the concern is being spiritually weak and the possibly to being open to what the Freemasons are doing in the schools regarding prepping young ones via frat houses and the like if such are selected. Another fear would be sexual immorality i.e. You can have a daughter going to Rutgers and she will possibly be a target, granted a lot of things of the like is taking place, and lastly, Gang-Stalking, it does not only happen to people of color or racial background, nor does it only take place in the churches, it happens in the schools too.

Bad things happens to all of us, in home, kindergarten, school, workplace, on holidays ....etc.

Well, choice to doing "normal" stuff as going to higher education is, have to be matter of your personal choice and NOT RESULT OF DOGMATIC TEACHING, INSTRUCTION, ADVICE, COMMENDATION of Church Leaders. 

About "stupidity". There is two sort of that connected to comment i made. One came from naivete , inexperience, or natural lack of reasoning for some stuff. Other came because we alone make us (and with help of others people too) to believe something and have strong feeling how we make best decision.

Religion (and not only religion) have that power to make us so sure in wrong things. Don't you think the same?      

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Bad things happens to all of us, in home, kindergarten, school, workplace, on holidays ....etc.

Well, choice to doing "normal" stuff as going to higher education is, have to be matter of your personal choice and NOT RESULT OF DOGMATIC TEACHING, INSTRUCTION, ADVICE, COMMENDATION of Church Leaders. 

About "stupidity". There is two sort of that connected to comment i made. One came from naivete , inexperience, or natural lack of reasoning for some stuff. Other came because we alone make us (and with help of others people too) to believe something and have strong feeling how we make best decision.

Religion (and not only religion) have that power to make us so sure in wrong things. Don't you think the same?      

Yes I agree with your last sentence. I first learnt the JW teachings from my brother. I had always believed and relied on my 'big' brother for advice as he always seemed sensible and balanced. My father died, at age 49, when i was only 20, so my brother acted as a father to me in many ways.  So, I took what my brother said as 'truth' in many matters .... However, now I've grown older and have more experience in life, i have come to realise that not all things my brother said were 'truth', to the point that i now know that he would use things to his own advantage. 

And as I've said before the JW Org have a way of telling congregants not to question anything they say. And once again when a person gets older or wiser, then they do their own research, they find that not all JW teachings are true. 

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Bad things happens to all of us, in home, kindergarten, school, workplace, on holidays ....etc.

Indeed, granted most areas are considered Soft Targets, anything can happen at any given time, on the other side of the spectrum, there are those who are haunted by and experience and the like.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, choice to doing "normal" stuff as going to higher education is, have to be matter of your personal choice and NOT RESULT OF DOGMATIC TEACHING, INSTRUCTION, ADVICE, COMMENDATION of Church Leaders. 

Indeed you have the choice, but the fact of the matter doing such would hinder any connection with God or not. The only thing you cannot have a choice about is the type of people you will be around, a stoner, a sex addict, someone who is seeking you out, a manipulator, etc. I have been down this road before.

And no, the teachings are not dogmatic, as we have examples in Scripture already. The bottom line is not losing one's connection and or relationship with God, which is something that can easily be lost in things that tend to take up time.

If you want an experience of mine, 3 of my professors had issues with being overly religious, one of the 3 attempted to fail me because he felt that me reading the Bible was disgracing him since he was homosexual, and assumes that I 100% hateful towards gays of which I am not. I simply told him I do not hate him as a person, just not someone in favor of his conduct and I simply pulled verses in Ephesians. For when he, came out of the closet, so to speak.

Clearly it didn't change his view of me, but it is evident that he was clearly not a fan of the Bible, on one occasion he tried to test me, to show me in the Bible homosexuality was not sin, that Jesus would have accepted it,but he failed miserably. A good thing that semester, that was a war zone, had been done away with and completed.

Our Church Fathers were educated, and if one did the research, they'd look at their backgrounds, I explained this to you months ago already.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

About "stupidity". There is two sort of that connected to comment i made. One came from naivete , inexperience, or natural lack of reasoning for some stuff. Other came because we alone make us (and with help of others people too) to believe something and have strong feeling how we make best decision.

What?

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Religion (and not only religion) have that power to make us so sure in wrong things. Don't you think the same?      

Religion and or our faith is the best education we have, who does not want to read and understand things about God and his Word?

And because of faith by means of Christ-like practices to be in application in our lives, it helps a lot, examples, a man who is of Christ knows not to commit a type of sin in regards to desire of the flesh vs. someone who does not - very simple.

That being said, it didn't take religion to see how the system in the realm of education is seen being played out by others, hence the rate we see today.

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JW people often emphasize how old Israelite's were all educated and could read and write and nations around them are less educated. Question. What levels of education have existed at that time in the nation of Israel. Just to know read and write? Or, what was equivalent for education, in their time, we called today high school and university? 

Did elders of Israel congregation teaching young people /male and female/  not to educate self more in various knowledge's, that is not only spiritual aka religious? Did they talking to people; Israel Nation and State and Country is just temporary here on Earth, God will destroy all on Earth, so why to loosing your time in seeking for "worldly" knowledge, even inside Israel Land Boarders?  :)) 

For a contrary, they believed  how they will stay there Forever and have Kingdom Forever.

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Their problem is not with higher education, the issue of the matter is that they want their faith community to put God first, adhering to the verse in question, Matthew 6:33. The misconception is that they detest and or hate higher education, the thing is, they are not ignorant to the fact that young ones need an income to live and whatnot, therefore must seek out a trade by going to a Technical School, some College and or Uni, etc, some youth out there are self taught and or abide by the trade teachings of their relatives.

Another factor is Uni has become borderline "Communist" and the narrative of which they interject into the youth nowadays is a string of ideologies, political grooming, if one is not careful. And some of the college life is brazen and immoral, for any Christian parent wouldn't want to come to the discover of their child doing something immoral, let alone become victim in the colleges, i.e. real life experience, which I had mentioned several times regarding a late friend whose situation blew up resulting in her suicide, and there has been countless examples, especially the one with the case.

Higher Education is both a blessing and a curse, as is, very narrow, should one not be as careful. Clearly, you have not scratched the surface of the realm of Uni/College life as have some who look into those things, then again, some of you, Atheists, tend to thrive in all aspects of such, ahem, the athlete and his father regarding one victim...

That being said, it is usually women that are often victims in

    Hello guest!

You either go there to study and work towards a degree for a decent job or you go there to party, and between the lines, there is and always will be consequences, of which the stupid and the ignorant do not know about.

All and all, all you got is jokes - no solutions to the problem, reasons why such ones like Mr. Turner nearly got off easy, and those like him.

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On 11/30/2019 at 1:57 PM, Jack Ryan said:
 

"A casualty on the altar of education..."

Nothing Culty here.... Not at all /s

It can't get any clearer: "LIsten to Jehovah's voice!" is a direct claim to inspiration by the Governing Body.

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 Quote @TrueTomHarley Today Witness parents are encouraged to take an active role in their offspring's future plans so that they will be able to support themselves decently. 

Yes, so was that actually true about 'not letting them have a driving licence if they don't get baptised' ? 

 

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Learning and making money to support oneself/family isn’t a problem. But putting oneself in an environment that promotes standards and objectives that conflict with or are at odds with our own spiritual outlook and objectives CAN be a problem - and it has often been that way in real life experience. Sure, there are exceptions to both sides of the equation. But there certainly is more of a risk to one’s spiritual health on a number of fronts. If one of your primary objectives is to preach the gospel and support yourself while doing that, where would your focus be? Jesus, the apostles, early Christians all made choices that reflected their priorities - even if at times it meant leaving lucrative businesses. Why should it seem so strange that Christians today with the same mandate would choose to do the same? A human perspective that doesn’t take God into consideration would logically pursue a course tilted toward this world’s thinking/reasoning/priorities. But if you have faith in God’s promise to provide what you need when you put his will first, your choices would logically be different. So, if you actually believe that God will see to it that you have what you need, then going much beyond that would be for what are “wants” - and for that you would likely need more money and sacrifices will have to be made on one side to gain on the other. “You can’t serve two masters“ as Jesus correctly pointed out. He lived by what he said. Look at the hundreds of thousands of pioneers in the world today - or even in your own congregation. Sure they have challenges like the rest of us, but are they suffering/destitute or unhappy generally? “Money can be a protection“ but as they say: “Money can’t buy happiness.” True happiness comes from within and having a good relationship with God - we were created that way. The main host of one of the tv travel documentaries was asked: “Who did you find were the happiest people in the world?” (No he didn’t say JWs although that may have been true;) His answer was that the happiest people were also the poorest materially. He referred to a very poor group of people in a village in Sri Lanka whose families often could only afford one meal a day. Poor yes, but also the happiest. I’m not suggesting that we should follow suit, but just making the point that happiness is a quest anyone would want. But this system promotes satisfying essentially spiritual needs with physical “things.” Pursuing higher education is often less about satisfying basic and legitimate needs and more about lifestyle. Wise king Solomon knew the truth about these things. His observations are worth a second look. 

That being said, I would have to admit that taking the choice as to what type of education to pursue out of the hands of parents and individuals and handing that choice to imperfect men who may not be any smarter does sound cultish to me. True, people can actually choose, but it’s like “choosing” whether to jump off a bridge or not, when you will be punished for not making the “right” choice. On the other hand, and to be fair, when people in positions of responsibility set an example of accepting a course that could put one in harm’s way, it could set a harmful precedent. So there’s that.. 

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Gotta admit, all the legal higher education the watchtower is utilizing now isn't helping out very much now adays as they are loosing legal battles, quite the opposite when they at one time were very successful in winning supreme court cases.

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8 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

But there certainly is more of a risk to one’s spiritual health on a number of fronts.

Adam and Eve were at risk too. Their coming on Scene of Life was risk itself. But God himself put them at risk even more.... with The Tree, and with allowing devil to visit them. Without warning Adam and Eve what is coming on them.

In our life we have to be challenged from non friendly "elements" too, and main purpose is: to be stronger than before. Of, course you will not go purposely to prison to be surrounded by criminals for that reason, but it seems how some JW's consider non-JW people as "enemies".  

8 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

The main host of one of the tv travel documentaries was asked: “Who did you find were the happiest people in the world?” (No he didn’t say JWs although that may have been true;) His answer was that the happiest people were also the poorest materially.

Than, it would be interesting to understand why many poor people want to stop to be poor. And why many people who are not poor (according to statistics and normative about what poverty is) are not ready to leave their material position for purpose to be "more happy" with less money.

Does this poor people, described in comments, are happy because they are among people with similar material status, and such position not cause comparison or envy and jealousy?  

8 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Pursuing higher education is often less about satisfying basic and legitimate needs and more about lifestyle. Wise king Solomon knew the truth about these things. His observations are worth a second look. 

People want to learn, to know more, generally. And as such this is one way how to satisfying basic and legitimate needs. Adam and Eve also want to learn more, about The Tree. Despite the ban of eating (eating = get knowledge), their natural need (putted in them in moment of Creation by God) for learning and know more put them in the risk.

King Solomon was extremely rich. And, as he quoted few times personally, he was in position to afford for himself all "this wisdom" not only because of Heavenly Revelations that came to him few times, but because of Riches he had (and people, poor and rich Israeli people have made it possible for him). 

Solomon proved main issue, that you can be rich and happy in the same time.  :)))   

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Adam and Eve were at risk too. Their coming on Scene of Life was risk itself. But God himself put them at risk even more.... with The Tree, and with allowing devil to visit them. Without warning Adam and Eve what is coming on them.

In our life we have to be challenged from non friendly "elements" too, and main purpose is: to be stronger than before.

??? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning, but my response would be: "When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." James 1:13.  Other than that, I would suggest you look up "non sequitur" in the dictionary. 

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

it seems how some JW's consider non-JW people as "enemies". 

Romans 5:10 "For if when we were "enemies" we became reconciled to God..." So God views individuals alienated from him as "enemies" but with the same hope and attitude we have, that they become reconciled to God. We view non-JW people as potential brothers - don't hate them. As Jesus taught us, we love even our enemies - yes, even in times of war. But more than that, MUCH more than that. Worshippers of Jehovah have always had "enemies." The faithful patriarchs, the nation of Israel and faithful men therein, Jesus Christ, early Christians, faithful men who were burned at the stake for producing Bibles, modern-day worshippers of Jehovah... As the recent broadcast mentioned, JWs are experiencing persecution on an unprecedented scale. Matthew 24:9 "Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name." John 17:14 "I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." John 15:18-20 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it has hated you...for this reason the world hates you...A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..." Mark 13:13 "And you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved." Frankly I could go on, but you get the idea. Do yourself a favour and do a word search on all the times "enemy" is used in the Bible and in what context. The historical, firsthand experience of JW's in countries around the world makes it clear that many non-JW people have acted as enemies, whether it be totalitarian governments, different religions, tribalism, and just plain "haters." And why should that surprise us? What would you expect from a world whose God is Satan the Devil? 1 John 5:19 "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." Luke 4:6 "Then the Devil said to him: 'I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." Revelation 12 - all of it but vs 17 should suffice: "so the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus." In a nutshell: if you, while living in Satan's system don't find you have any "enemies," you may want to seriously consider whose side you're on.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

it would be interesting to understand why many poor people want to stop to be poor. And why many people who are not poor (according to statistics and normative about what poverty is) are not ready to leave their material position for purpose to be "more happy" with less money.

I will accept responsibility for your misunderstanding of the point I was making. I wasn't very clear I guess. Sorry about that. It was my mistake. I was NOT making the point that you have to be poor to be happy. in fact, a poor person can be more materialistic than a wealthy person. But if you look to material prosperity as the ultimate gauge of happiness, you will be on a never-ending quest. Wealthy people are rarely satisfied even when they have an abundance. I was making the point that even poor people can be happy. Wealth does not in of itself equal happiness - which is the false hope some have. Psalm 37:16 "Better is the little of the righteous one than the abundance of many wicked ones." Luke 12:16 ""keep your eyes open and guard against every sort of greed, because even when a person has an abundance, his life does not result from the things he possesses." 

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

King Solomon was extremely rich. And, as he quoted few times personally, he was in position to afford for himself all "this wisdom" not only because of Heavenly Revelations that came to him few times, but because of Riches he had (and people, poor and rich Israeli people have made it possible for him). 

Solomon proved main issue, that you can be rich and happy in the same time. 

I believe the word he used in describing your scenario, was "vanity" or "futile." But that's another discussion... :)

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5 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

??? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning,

I just want to point out how, life is a sort of risk. Events that took place in Eden Garden (and in Heaven Realm with angels) show us how many things can go wrong when you are alive.

People who do not live (do not exist), or are dead, are not at risk and not causing any risk, (only health risk if they are not properly buried or burnt).  Perhaps corps are not risk for vultures. (black humor)

But want to show how facing "risks" is "normal" thing. You are at risk even in your congregation meetings. You can fall in love with person you should not to fall. Or somebody can be in "crush" with you. You are at risk to follow human interpretations of God's words!!! Children are at risk to be victims too. We have literal and spiritual risk that took place in congregation. And you have to deal with them. In that way, you are at risk where ever you go. Bible verses can give you good advice or warning, but they will not save you from every risk. If you are in a place, you believed is the safest place on Earth, than you are at risk ..... Bible shows this too :)) 

 

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But want to show how facing "risks" is "normal" thing.

Fair enough and I agree with you on that. There is always a risk - even when we try to do the right thing, pray, follow scriptural principles, avoid bad areas... I'm sure you would also agree though, that some actions are riskier than others. i.e. jumping off a cliff is riskier than jumping off a curb - (unless you are jumping off the curb into traffic)  For instance, if you know an area of your city is known to have a high crime rate - especially at night, you might feel it prudent to avoid that area when you have a choice. True you may not be attacked, but the chances of that happening to you are significantly greater if you expose yourself to that environment. Not to flog this... (OK yes, I am flogging it ;)) One more example. You might not get cancer from smoking cigarettes, but the evidence shows your chances are greater of getting it. And in fact, even if you felt you were willing to take the chance yourself, would you be willing to set that example for your kids by smoking at home? They would see your example and possibly feel it's fine to follow your example, in turn putting them at greater risk of both addiction and cancer. That's the point I was clumsily trying to make. Personally, per se, I am not a dogmatic "opposer" of higher learning such that I would take it upon myself to punish others for choosing that option. But I would also candidly admit from real-life examples I have seen, that it poses a higher risk to spiritual objectives than other grades of schooling (which of course, as I recognize, can come with their own risks.) 

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11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

 

Are you volunteering as a poster boy for the need for higher education? ;) 

Typing on a tablet is difficult sometimes....but I'm sure my education surpasses your 4 year awake and watchtower education:)

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2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Personally, per se, I am not a dogmatic "opposer" of higher learning

Thanks for respond and for your understanding. 

I would like to add also this about WT Society "warnings" and strong recommendations through publications and public talks about "higher education".

We have young people who going to High school of some sort. WT Society not giving explicit "warnings" about this level of education. Perhaps because WT think how young "worldly" people of that age are not big "risk" for young JW members. :))

Also, we have young people who going to Universities and similar educational level. But WT consider how young "worldly" people of that age is very "dangerous" and are big "risk" for young JW members. :))

But, have in mind also this. Many of this young "worldly" people from both level of educations ended....where?? At some working place, on some job. And now we have big surprise. Where young and not young JW members working, on what working place, on what job? At same place with all those "worldly" people who JW members try to avoid when were younger, when were in similar/same age. And now they are all together ....despite all efforts JW members done in previous years. Some JW member working at place as janitor and his school colleague (known or unknown)  is Principal or Manager or Boss who giving him orders what and how to do something. JW members avoid to be with him at University but spend with him cca 8 hours a day in same Firm. Well, what is so special to be benefit of that?   

To be in Line, to be Consistent  in "warnings and advice" about issue how to avoid this sorts of "risk" to be near "worldly" people,  WT Society should have to warn JW people not to looking for "secular" job because it is big "risk" to put yourself in such a godless society/environment. 

Bible shows how old and young can be caught in same sort of "trap".

:))

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To be in Line, to be Consistent  in "warnings and advice" about issue how to avoid this sorts of "risk" to be near "worldly" people,  WT Society should have to warn JW people not to looking for "secular" job because it is big "risk" to put yourself in such a godless society/environment. 

John 17:14-16 The comments in the study Bible on John 17:15 say: "Jehovah...could even separate his people physically from the rest of the world and place them in a a safe and peaceful environment. However, regarding his disciples, Jesus prayed to his heavenly Father: "I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one." Jehovah has chosen not to take us "out of the world." Rather, it is his will that we live among the general population of this world in order to proclaim his message of hope and comfort to others. (Rom. 10:13-15) But, as Jesus implied in his prayer, by living in this world, we are exposed to "the wicked one." Disobedient mankind and wicked spirit forces cause much pain and anguish, and Christians are not immune to distress." 1 Peter 5:9

So while we recognize we have to live in a world under Satan's control, it doesn't mean we should go out of our way to expose ourselves to potentially dangerous influences and bad association. There are of course necessary things we must do to survive and provide for our families - such as employment, which as you correctly pointed out, can mean rubbing shoulders with worldly people and attitudes whatever level of education we choose. But even on that, we are selective so as to minimize our exposure to potentially harmful influences. It may include being selective as to what type of work we are willing to accept, or whom we work with/for. Many caring parents know they can't completely eliminate bad influences at school for instance (since kids have to have some type of schooling and it is beneficial), but they may choose to be selective as to whom they allow their kids to spend their extra time with. So living in the world, we recognize there are certain things we must do whether we like it or not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't exercise caution and be selective as to what we choose to involve ourselves in. I could rationalize that I need a job to support myself and my family - a legitimate and necessary need,  but would I choose to work for the mafia to do so? No, I would be selective and cautious. 

6 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Typing on a tablet is difficult sometimes....but I'm sure my education surpasses your 4 year awake and watchtower education:)

I agree with you. I often have the same problem on both phone and tablet. Fortunately I've recently discovered that we can edit and make corrections. I wish I had known that earlier before "auto-correct" ran roughshod over my posts. 

As for my level of education, I provide as little information as possible to identify me. As a "whistleblower" on some things, there would be an opportunity for "blowback" from men in authority who have something to hide. I don't even post what country I'm from. So when I have written that at times there are men in authority who act as wickedly as people in the world and hide behind their authority, I know exactly what I'm talking about. That's why I don't buy into the "Jesus is in full control of everything..." stuff, because I know some of the stuff that goes on is about as unChristlike as you can get. He doesn't cause/control it just because he allows it for a time. I also question some of the decisions men (not Jesus) have made when I am in possession of all the facts - especially when removal or disfellowshipping has as it's objective to silence whistleblowers who expose their corruption. I have never been DF'd, but I know if they thought I was spilling the beens on them, that's exactly what would happen. So I don't mention any names either that would tip them off. Just letting people know that you can still maintain your faith and relationship with God despite the evil that (some) men do - and get away with for now. 

Sorry if this rant is off topic.

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5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

We have young people who going to High school of some sort. WT Society not giving explicit "warnings" about this level of education. Perhaps because WT think how young "worldly" people of that age are not big "risk" for young JW members. :))

Also, we have young people who going to Universities and similar educational level. But WT consider how young "worldly" people of that age is very "dangerous" and are big "risk" for young JW members. :))

But, have in mind also this. Many of this young "worldly" people from both level of educations ended....where?? At some working place, on some job. And now we have big surprise. Where young and not young JW members working, on what working place, on what job? At same place with all those "worldly" people who JW members try to avoid when were younger, when were in similar/same age. And now they are all together ....despite all efforts JW members done in previous years. Some JW member working at place as janitor and his school colleague (known or unknown)  is Principal or Manager or Boss who giving him orders what and how to do something. JW members avoid to be with him at University but spend with him cca 8 hours a day in same Firm. Well, what is so special to be benefit of that?   

To be in Line, to be Consistent  in "warnings and advice" about issue how to avoid this sorts of "risk" to be near "worldly" people,  WT Society should have to warn JW people not to looking for "secular" job because it is big "risk" to put yourself in such a godless society/environment. 

Bible shows how old and young can be caught in same sort of "trap".

:))

Just as the WT knows how to work the global market by investing their money in hedge funds, they know how to manipulate a developing mind with persuasion techniques.  I perceive the downplay of higher education as a safeguard from losing members.  While the organization warns these young ones of Satan’s worldly traps when pursuing higher education, in reality it appears to me that it’s all about keeping JWs captive to the organization’s “empty philosophy”.  Col 2:8  Knowing how the young mind develops sheds light on the org's use of persistent warnings not to pursue higher education. 

“Developmental Tasks and Attributes of Late Adolescence/Young Adulthood (Ages 18-24 years)

    Hello guest!

This is a time of life when very little is normative. It is a period of frequent change

and exploration that covers many aspects of their life: home, family, work, school,

resources, and role.

Develop and apply abstract thinking skills

Adolescents experience significant changes in

their capacity to think. In changing from

concrete to abstract thought they are

increasingly able to understand and grapple

with abstract ideas, think about possibilities,

think ahead, think about thinking, and “put

themselves in another person’s shoes.”

In general, this changes their ability to think

about themselves, others and the world

around them.

This is a gradual process that spans

adolescence and young adulthood. For

example, early in the process youth are

limited in their ability to hold more than one

point of view – understanding something

from one perspective but not another.

·        Capacity for abstract thought becomes

established; can think abstractly and

hypothetically; can discern the underlying

principles and apply them to new

situations; and can think about the future,

considering many possibilities and logical

outcomes of possible events.

·       Able to hold and manipulate clusters of

abstract ideas and create systems for

organizing abstract thoughts.

·       Greater ability to consider different points

of view at the same time can result in

increased empathy and concern for others,

and new interest in societal issues for many.

It also allows youth to better value the

diversity of people (and their perspectives)

and appreciate that there may be many

right answers to a problem.

Adopt A Personal Value System

Adolescents develop a more complex

understanding of moral behavior and

underlying principles of justice. They question

and assess beliefs from childhood and

restructure these beliefs into a personal

ideology (e.g. more personally meaningful

values, religious views, and belief systems to

guide decisions and behavior).

·        Decisions and values are less influenced by

peers.

·       Able to see multiple viewpoints, value the

diversity of people and perspectives and

appreciate that there can be many right

answers to a problem.

·        Identify values and viewpoints that work for

oneself while respecting viewpoints/values

of others

I would imagine there is a high risk of young JWs entering a college or university after high school, with the same age group, and going through the same mental development stages ...leaving the Watchtower altogether.  

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11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

... we are selective so as to minimize our exposure to potentially harmful influences.

Absolutely agree. But what I see as it is possible to read in WT Society text about Higher education is this: They tend to separate young minds from "secular knowledge" because of some fears. Perhaps one of fear is not main reason, to be learned about non-Bible ideas. But as main reason i see how this "secular ideas" can cause that young JW members begin to question WT and Bible. 

Please have in mind what you already said, JHVH not decided to separate Congregation, but He doing just opposite. He let all sort of influence to be spread on  people, all people, not just JW's. If JHVH not made separation in literal way, than WT try to do this separation in limited level on limited class of people for limited time in their life - looks funny and not productive as they expect. 

12 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

I could rationalize that I need a job to support myself and my family - a legitimate and necessary need,  but would I choose to work for the mafia to do so? No, I would be selective and cautious. 

This was completely necessary to be said ... using this sort of illustration with mafia as subject :)))))

........... but you "provoked" me a little :)))) and i will add. We all working for devil the boss, because he is ruler, god of this world, global company/corporation. Just another, different way of rationalization.   :))))))

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      "When they found out, my dad and uncles made fun of me," Linderer recalls. "It really squashed my hopes. I knew I wasn't going to get their support, and without their support, it was really obvious to me at the time that I wasn't going to be able to do it on my own."
      With only a few credits left before high school graduation, Linderer dropped out. He had no prospects of education beyond high school, so getting the diploma seemed pointless. He struggled to find work after moving out of his parents' home, which eventually led him to get certified as an electrician. Still, that longing to study science haunted him.
      "I think I had that feeling at 17 years old or so that that was what I wanted to be, what I needed to be," Linderer says. "There's been this hole ever since then."
      From the top down
      Linderer's story is a common one for children raised as Jehovah's Witnesses. Pew Research shows that only 9 percent of Witnesses get undergraduate degrees. That's well below the national average of 30.4 percent and the lowest of any faith group. The likely reason for this trend is the religion's official warnings against college.
      Witness leadership declined to speak to NPR for this story, but Anthony Morris III, a member of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, outlines the organization's policies clearly in a video on the organization's website. The Watchtower Organization discourages higher education for two basic reasons.
      First, higher education is spiritually dangerous. In the video, Morris warns parents that "the most intelligent and eloquent professors will be trying to reshape the thinking of your child, and their influence can be tremendous." He goes on to say that continual association with non-believers in an academic setting can "erode thinking and convictions."
      Witness leadership also discourages higher education because they believe it's a waste of time. Jehovah's Witnesses have been predicting the end of the world since the religion's founding at the end of the 19th century. By their rationale, time in college would be better spent out on the streets, converting persons to become Witnesses.
      Morris makes it very clear that the Watchtower organization doesn't discourage education, but rather secular education.
      "If parents and young ones are motivated to pursue divine education," Morris says, "the quest for higher secular education becomes less and less of an issue."

      Amber McGee (Back) says although she didn't fulfill her dreams to go collage because she grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, she'll pass those dreams on to her children.
      Courtesy Luke Vander Ploeg
      More material problems
      The lack of higher education can translate into more tangible problems for Witnesses. Pew research also shows that Jehovah's Witnesses are among the lowest earners of any religious group.
      Amber McGee falls in that category. She grew up a Witness in rural Texas. Like Linderer, she was home-schooled from a young age. Her parents wanted to protect her and her siblings from worldly influences. That decision wasn't easy on her family.
      "My mom, who was supposed to be our home school teacher, was not capable of doing it, emotionally mentally," McGee recalls. "She had three young children. She was by herself, very far from family, and even grocery stores and that sort of thing."
      McGee's mother never finished high school herself, and the pressure of trying to teach three children was too much for her. She gave up on homeschooling them when McGee and her twin were in third grade. The kids were forced to fend for themselves using workbooks. When she had trouble with a subject, McGee says she'd just pass her work off to her twin, and vice-versa. This left both of them with significant learning disabilities.
      McGee says that when she got excited about a subject, her mother would often shut her down. "I told her how much I found history fun," McGee says. "She told me, 'Well, that's not important because it doesn't have any bearing on your future, and it won't be any use in the paradise." This "paradise" refers to the heaven on earth that Witnesses believe is coming after the end of the world.
      McGee barely graduated high school. In mathematics, she never made it past the seventh grade level. That's made life difficult for McGee. She's now 34 years old, and the most she's made in a year is about $14,000.
      McGee and her family left the Witnesses about a year ago. They're doing better now financially, but it's still far from what McGee had hoped for her life. She had wanted to be nurse growing up, but with no support from her parents and very little education, she didn't feel it was possible. Today, she struggles with that same feeling that Linderer talked about: the feeling of being robbed of something. It's a sentiment shared by most of the more than 100 ex-Jehovah's Witnesses that I heard from while reporting this story.
      Still, McGee says she isn't letting that feeling stop her from retaking her life.
      "I was taught very, very young to stop dreaming, to not have dreams," McGee says, "that you'll never be a famous person or a doctor or a nurse. It's not possible. So now, as an adult, at 34 years old, I'm learning to start dreaming again."
      Even if it's too late for some of her dreams, she definitely hopes to pass them on to her children.

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    • By io.porog
      March 2015
      Presenters: Bros. Gerrit Losch, GB & John Ekrann, Helper
      Theme Talk: “Fortified by the Prophetic Word.” - 2 Peter 1: 19
      Our Activities: Speeding Up the Distribution of Literature
      From Our Archives: Bro. George Couch “This is Jehovah’s Organisation.”
      Apply Bible Principles: Serving Jehovah in a Divided Household Is Possible
      Our Organization: Bro. Mark Sanderson “A Bible Exhibit the Glorifies Jehovah’s Name.”
      Truth Transforms Lives: Sis. Nancy Simon “God’s Kingdom is the Only Solution.”
      Reports From Around the World: Central Europe Branch Report
      Original Song: “What Means the Most to Me”
      Closing Comments:
      Closing Video: Mexico Branch
       
       
    • By The Librarian
      Gerrit Lösch: Do Not Hold a Grudge (1 Cor. 13:8) 
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