Jesus and Michael

[Diakonos]

One thing that has always puzzled me is this: what happened to the spirit creature Michael when Jesus was conceived/born as a human? We are told that Jehovah transferred Michael's life pattern into Jesus in much the same way as God will do for those who are resurrected. This would mean that when Jesus was alive on earth there was no Michael in heaven. As we do not believe that humans have a spirit, in the accepted sense of the word, the question remains, what happened to Michael during Jesus earthly presence?

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, Diakonos said:

what happened to Michael during Jesus earthly presence?

We would assume that Michael, the archangel, became a fetus, a baby, then a toddler, then a young boy, then went through puberty, and became a young man, and then a full grown man who gave himself over to the authorities to be killed. This should give us a glimpse into the level of humility and love shown:

• (Philippians 2:7-11) 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Michael means "Who is like God?" and Immanuel means "With us is God." The Bible never makes a specific point about identifying Michael as either Jesus or Immanuel or Christ. But this is not so different from Matthew saying that he will be called Immanuel, and yet we never hear Jesus called Immanual anywhere either. He was mostly called Jesus, Savior, Rabbi, son of man, son of God, and Messiah (Christ), etc.

I know this wasn't necessarily your point in bringing it up, but a lot of people think we are the only religion that ever thought of claiming that Michael was the same as Jesus Christ prior to his earthly presence. The idea had been around for many years before Jehovah's Witnesses came along. 

[Diakonos]

Indeed others also believe that Jesus and Michael are one and the same, however they also believe that Jesus is God the Son, although they didn't always hold to that belief. In the Finished Mystery, Russell, if indeed it was Russell, wrote that Michael was the Pope and his angels were the bishops ?

[Witness]

Each name has a meaning behind it; my father’s surname reflects the type of work his ancestors did long ago.  God changed the name of Abram (“Exalted Father”) – to Abraham (“Father of Many”) signifying his new appointed, divine role. 

Michael – “Who is Like God”.  This is declaring a role Jesus reflects in Armageddon, as he battles the “Beast” of Rev 13 which believers in it proclaim, “Who is Like the Beast?”  It is a battle over who takes authority over God’s people/anointed ones. 

1 Thess 4:16 - For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout^] with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (Rev 1:10,12,13)

The Beasts of Rev 13, who work in tandem, comes against “Michael” - 

 “ At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred since nations came into being until that time. But at that time all your people who are found written in the book will escape.” Dan 12:1

Escape what?  The two Beasts, during the Great Tribulation/Armageddon. 

"Look, it will be like a lion coming from the thickets of the Jordan to the watered grazing land. I will chase Babylon away from her land in a flash. I will appoint whoever is chosen for her. (Rev 17:16,17)   For who is like me? Who will issue me a summons? Who is the shepherd who can stand against me? "  Jer 50:44        Rev 6:17 

 ^“He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. ²⁵ He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.”  Dan 8:24,25  (Rev 16:19,20)

These Beasts are not found in Satan’s political world that Michael comes against.  They are false shepherds who rule over God’s anointed and brethren.  Rev 13: 5-7,11,12,14

“The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize (really?) that by following the lead of the Governing Body, they are in fact following their leader, Christ.  Wt 9/15/2010”

The anointed apostle Paul said, “Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.”  Gal 1:10

Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than people.”  Acts 5:29

There are two connotations I can see in the meaning of “Who is Like God”.

 Nothing built within this world can compare itself to, or with, the Father; yet the Watchtower continually does by saying “Jehovah and/with the organization”.  Isa 40:25

Jesus, the Head of the anointed Body of Christ and God’s Temple, (1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) and is the only comparison to God, that he will allow.

Both of these are the basis for Armageddon; the restoration of God’s sovereignty; the restoration of God’s Temple/priesthood. 2 Cor 10:3-5

 

 

 

 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The Bible never makes a specific point about identifying Michael as either Jesus or Immanuel or Christ.

Then why do men? If there are scriptures that refute what these men say, then why do these men say it is so and who are we to believe? There are scriptures that contradict this idea of Michael being Jesus. The worship accounts make it clear that Michael cannot be Jesus. Even if you call it obeisance, scripture still refutes the claim.  

[Shiwiii]

17 minutes ago, Witness said:

1 Thess 4:16 - For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout^] with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (Rev 1:10,12,13)

Great point, What King announces himself? He doesn't, it is his under-servants who do the announcing. 

18 minutes ago, Witness said:

 Nothing built within this world can compare itself to, or with, the Father; yet the Watchtower continually does by saying “Jehovah and/with the organization”.  Isa 40:25

Jesus, the Head of the anointed Body of Christ and God’s Temple, (1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) and is the only comparison to God, that he will allow.

agreed

[Shiwiii]

28 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Lazarus obeyed Jesus' voice and came "on out" of his tomb. "those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out".  "My sheep know my voice".  Job: "You will call" .  The dead will answer. 

Jesus is both King and High Priest forever according to the manner of Melchizedek.

How does this answer the question I raised? What King announces himself? 

 

29 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

This means that the first resurrection must have begun early in Christ’s presence, and it continues “during his presence.

When exactly did this happen, I mean Christ's presence,  according to scripture? 

[Shiwiii]

6 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

 

This answers NOTHING of what your position is. If I wanted to hear from the WT, I'd look it up myself. I want to know how YOU fit the two. If it is the same, then by all means put it into your own words and support it with scripture and I'll be happy to discuss, but If all you are going to do is point to a website, then forget it. This is a discussion board to bounce our ideas, thoughts and understandings off of each other in order to grow more in depth of our understanding about this world we live in and the people that exist here. 

[Shiwiii]

17 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

SOME OF THE THINGS I SAID ARE MY OWN WORDS. 

ALL  ARE, REGARDLESS,   ideas, thoughts and understandings WITH WHICH I COMPLETELY AGREE , AND I DON'T SAY THAT LIGHTLY. 

AND I WOULDN'T SAY IT AT ALL, UNLESS I'D JUST READ THEM  ,PROMPTED BY QUESTIONS AND CONTRARY ASSERTIONS RAISED HERE, AND MARVELED AT HOW VERY MUCH I AGREE, AND HOW VERY AGREEABLE AN EXPERIENCE THAT IS- THAT I SO WISH I COULD SHARE WITH YOU ALL.  :_)

 

Your feelings are your feelings, but I'm not about to sit here and read a cut and paste from WT. If what they say is exactly what you feel/believe, ok fine but I'm not reading pages from them. I'd much rather read what you feel and believe from your own words. I understand and will take your position into thought the next time we discuss. I doubt we will because I cannot fathom a person who stands convicted by what the WT says but cannot put it into their own words for meaningful discussion. 

 

Good day.

[Srecko Sostar]

My understanding is that Jesus is one person, Michael is another person. 

If anyhow Jesus would be the Michael, than at the end of his prayer, bro on stage would be able to tell with no problem, and without surprise to public, "in Michael name, amen" :)))))))))  

[Evacuated]

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"in Michael name, amen" :)))))))))  

"in Emmanuel name, amen" :)))))))))

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

IT WAS COMMON PRACTICE IN JEWISH SOCIETY TO HAVE NAME CHANGES WHEN A PERSON'S  LIFE HAD DRAMATIC CHANGES.

and plenty of examples of that in the Bible, too.

Sometimes they were interchangeable, sometimes not.

In our cultural background , Superman is REALLY Superman, but his birth name was Kal-El, and he also goes by Clark Kent.

Bruce Wayne is...uh ... Bruce Wayne and he goes by the name Batman, but is also called The Dark Knight.

If you had two cows named, and  described in great detail ... as Michael the Archangel, and Jesus both were ... BY WHAT THEY WERE ABLE TO DO ...and it was the same description ... AND the farm could only have one cow ... the most reasonable explanation would be it was the same cow.

Problems arise when you try to milk a squirrel to make butter.