Saying "Peace and Security!" before sudden destruction. (1Th 5:3) What does it mean?

[JW Insider]

Moving some posts from another topic, which had moved from a discussion of news related to the expression "Peace and Security" to a doctrinal discussion about the actual scriptural meaning of the verse in question:

 

[JW Insider]

Don't know whether it's right, but there is a completely different way to understand this verse. You get an idea of it by looking at 1 Thess 5:3 in some other translations:

• NLT: When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
• ESV: While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
• NET: Now when they are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.

I think we sometimes get this impression that the final generation of the last days will see almost constant wars and rumors of wars in various places in the world, with very few days of real peace. But then, we seem to figure, that the UN or some political institution or coalition of governments will, for some reason, cry out something to the effect of "Peace and Security!" as if they would like some attention for have finally been instrumental at creating a few weeks of peace amidst the near daily wars around the world. 

But it seems just as likely that the actual meaning, or even the actual translation of the verse should be closer to:

• While some people are talking about how everything seems to be peaceful and secure, they will find themselves undergoing sudden disaster, just as unexpectedly as the beginning of a pregnant woman's labor pains. And they won't be able to escape.

This is not necessarily a quotation of what they will be saying out loud anywhere. The expression is just one symbolic way of telling us what some people will no doubt be saying and thinking just before the time when Jehovah's judgment day comes upon them just as surprisingly as a thief in the night could come upon them. In context, this is what it seems to be saying. It's about the "PAROUSIA," which is sometimes called the "Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Jehovah." In context, it's about WHAT to expect about the PAROUSIA (presence) and WHEN to expect the PAROUSIA (presence):

• (1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:5) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence [PAROUSIA] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death [before the PAROUSIA]; 16 because [AT THE PAROUSIA] the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward [or, THEN] we the living who are surviving will, together with them [or Greek, AT THE SAME TIME], be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words. 5:1 Now as for the times and the seasons [of the PAROUSIA], brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day [the PAROUSIA] is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. 4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves, 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

Granted, this isn't the way we currently understand it officially, but it fits all the other scriptures just as well. The expression about saying there is peace and security is a parallel to the idea that the Parousia will come as a thief in the night. It will be surprising, and even painful and disastrous. There will be no way to predict it (by pointing out increasing wars and earthquakes and disasters, for example). Therefore Paul had nothing to say to them about the timing of the Parousia (the times and seasons) -- 1 Thess 5:1. 

This matches the idea that Jesus gave when he said that people would be going on about their daily routines, two men in a field, two women at a grinding mill, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage just as they were in Noah's day. Until suddenly the judgment event (parousia) came upon them as if without any warning.

Peter was saying the same thing when he said that people would ridicule the belief that the Parousia was coming, because things seemed to be going on as they always had been. Peter didn't say that the answer would be that the Parousia was really there all along but just invisible. Instead Peter said:

• (2 Peter 3:5-7) 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.

In other words, they are ignoring the fact that just like in Noah's generation, people also likely ridiculed the fact that there was no evidence of an imminent judgment day, yet that judgment event (parousia) came upon them as quickly as Jehovah released the waters upon them. In the same way the current heavens and earth will exist as they are being kept just as they now exist UNTIL THE DAY OF JUDGMENT (until the Parousia).

 

[TrueTomHarley]

Ford had just pardoned Nixon. After a bruising several months of the Nixon Presidency under assault, people ate up Ford's promise of better times ahead and the words he used to describe them.

At a convention I attended, the speaker worked his way through end-time themes, before holding aloft that morning's paper with the huge headline:  "Peace and Security." 

"Have you seen today's headlines?" he cried.

It was irresistible. I would have done it, too.

It will absolutely happen. But there have been false positives along the way.

[JW Insider]

40 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It will absolutely happen. But there have been false positives along the way.

I've seen the same many times. Part of it is undoubtedly based on the possible pretension that the verse speaks of a "CRY" of Peace and Security, and that exclamation point that the NWT puts at the end of it. The Bible says nothing about a "cry" of Peace and Security. There is no reason to make it a quotation or put an exclamation mark after it.

If this were true, then this would be a sign of the parousia, which contradicts the fact that the parousia comes as a thief, and a thief does not give a sign before he robs a house.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

which contradicts the fact that the parousia comes as a thief, and a thief does not give a sign before he robs a house.

Unfortunately, after my experience, a thief could break down my door, yell "Peace and Security," and I would roll over and go back to sleep.

There's too many ways things can be spun. I leave it to others and focus on the work that is engrossing in its own right. i take the party line without fuss, but always tentatively, for maybe it will change someday.

Meanwhile....oops...sorry - just had to dodge a missile from RocketMan

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

"presence"/"parousia  "In some contexts in the Christian Greek Scriptures, this word describes the royal presence of Jesus Christ from the time of his invisible enthronement as Messianic King onward in the last days of this system of things. Christ’s presence is not simply a coming followed by a quick departure; rather, it covers a marked period of time.—Mt 24:3.

Yes. We have long held onto the tradition that the Parousia is invisible and covers a period of time. We have said it is not the same as the final set of judgment events referred to as the coming/advent/revelation/manifestation. It is interesting then, that all these scriptures can be just as easily explained (perhaps even more easily explained) by proposing that the original speakers of "New Testament Greek" knew what the word Parousia meant. The Greek "New Testament" Bible was translated into Latin, Syriac, Aramaic and Coptic from the original Greek while koine Greek was still being spoken as a living language. Also, some of the early "Church Fathers" whom we often quote in our publications, spoke some of these languages in addition to Greek.

So while it would be a bit off topic to turn this into another full-fledged discussion of Parousia, I find it interesting to notice that a sensible explanation of this verse about Peace and Security can be seen to fit Jesus words, rather than contradict them. I had even noticed a tendency to make them say quite the opposite of what they actually say, and this is a direct result, I think, of our conflicted traditional doctrine about the Parousia. Here's an example:

On 9/28/2017 at 10:35 PM, USASister said:

I think it could be a cry of anguish as well as the false proclamation at the end. Many things in the bible have a smaller and a larger fulfillment.  They are crying for it.  It is heartbreaking really to look at. . . . Truly, " the nations in great anguish, not knowing the way out! "

Notice how this is almost an opposite interpretation of the one that fits the context. (Where Paul parallels the idea of people taking note of "Peace and Security" with the idea that the end will come as a surprise the them, without warning, just a thief in the night.) But it is opposite because we are also taught that it was Satan's anger in 1914 at having "a short period of time" that caused WW I to rage out of control. WW II was even worse than WW I. And we half-expect a WW III to begin escalating as a way to explain the fact that the wars since WW II seem almost mild by comparison (to some). We think, how can this be if Satan must surely have an even shorter period of time now than he had in 1914. If we were right about WW I then Satan should be starting 10 times as many wars just as big as WW I and WW II.

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If we were right about WW I then Satan should be starting 10 times as many wars just as big as WW I and WW II.

Do we really think that WW1 actually ended?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Perhaps a technical point, but the Watchtower Officers during WWI were charged and convicted of sedition against the United States of America ... because they were GUILTY of sedition against the United States of America when at WAR.

If you park in a no parking zone, and your car gets towed away ... don't blame it on Satan.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Do we really think that WW1 actually ended?

Like Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, when surrounded by enemy Indians, and Kemosabe said "What do we do NOW, Tonto?"

Tonto replied "What you mean "We", white man?"

Yes, WWI actually ended.

THAT'S WHY WWII IS CALLED WWII !!!!

I need a beer, and a hammer, to ease the pain of having to have to read that Gone Fishing question.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Go to Youtube and google "12 hours dog barking".

Play this LOUD when you leave the house.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

The Society had trouble translating the NWT from English to Klingon, because there was no concept of "mercy" in the Klingon Language.

 

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

WWI actually ended

More delusions I see. That explains your apparent JTBS.