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“Nourishing Spiritual Food”? 

I cannot advocate the website listed at the end of this short video, as I haven’t gone there.  Also I do not see verification that the money from the sale of houses, properties and goods was given to the Watchtower at that time period.  But I will not dismiss the large possibility.  What is important about this video, is hearing how 1975 was truly proclaimed from the source; quite contrary to how the 2017 convention presented it: 

“…you see, back then, some were looking to a certain date as signifying the end of this old system of things. A few, even went so far as selling their homes and quitting their jobs. (km 5/1974)"

“But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.” 

 You may say in your heart, “How shall we know the word which Yahweh has not spoken?”  When a prophet speaks in Yahweh’s name, if the thing doesn’t follow, nor happen, that is the thing which Yahweh has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him.              Deut 18:20-22

“This is what the LORD of Hosts says: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are making you worthless. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the LORD's mouth.”  Jer 23:16

“Behold, I am against the prophets, says Yahweh, who use their tongues, and say, He says. 32 Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, says Yahweh, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their vain boasting: yet I didn’t send them, nor commanded them; neither do they profit this people at all, says Yahweh.”  Jer 23:31-32

If we claim to read God's Word and live by it, then God's Word should help us distinguish truth from lies.  Matt 3:10

 

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On 10/25/2017 at 4:49 AM, Witness said:

some were looking to a certain date as signifying the end of this old system of things.

Some were. I was there in 1975 and I was not looking to a date. That was because some were not. So I can't see an issue of any significance any more than expectation postponed makes the heart sick. Were you there? Did you attach too much to human chronological speculation at the time?

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On 10/24/2017 at 11:49 PM, Witness said:

I cannot advocate the website listed at the end of this short video, as I haven’t gone there. 

Usually before I spotlight a video for proof of my point, I go there to see that it really does that.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 11:49 PM, Witness said:

What is important about this video, is hearing how 1975 was truly proclaimed from the source;

Should you not add: "It is so important that I didn't go there?"

 

 

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The idea that 1975 would witness the end of the world was first introduced in 1966.

"The published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation. So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man's existence. How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God's part, for, remember, mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ. It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the 'Lord of the Sabbath,' to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man's existence." Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God 1966 pp.26-30
"Does God's rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of Gods rest day come to an end? The year 1975. It means that within a relatively few years we will witness the fulfilment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the "time of the end"." Awake! 1966 Oct 8 pp.19-20
"It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. "The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed," said a conventioner. Surely it was one of the outstanding blessings to be carried home!" .. Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah's witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that." Watchtower 1966 Oct 15 pp.629,631


IT'S AMAZING HOW YOU CAN TAKE THE WORDS "6,000 YEARS OF MANS EXISTENCE WILL END" AND MAKING IT END IN 1975 AND CONCLUDE THAT IT REALLY DIDN'T SAY THAT AT ALL.

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49 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

All things are possible with God

Are you saying they are not?

 

49 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

But we are not saying.

Didn't you just say that they did?

 

49 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975.

Didn't you just say Witnesses spoke of nothing else?

 

50 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out

Do you think it is not?

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5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

some were. I was there in 1975 and I was not looking to a date. That was because some were not. So I can't see an issue of any significance any more than expectation postponed makes the heart sick. Were you there? Did you attach too much to human chronological speculation at the time?

Did the vast majority of JWs come to the conclusion that 1975 was the date of Armageddon – on their own? 

How did these people come to the realization of the world ending, unless they were convinced that the leaders in control understood Bible chronology?   Consider global warming; whether you believe it or not, you are relying on the scientific experts to tell you what’s happening with the planet; but in this case it doesn’t affect your relationship with family and friends if you choose one side or the other.

Surely you see the confusion by individuals reading the various articles and references to the date, as well as hearing live talks -  all coming from “Jehovah’s organization” and his “mouthpiece”.   

There was a 14% growth in member in 1974.  Why?   I am sure you know why.

By 1976 the growth rate dropped to 4%. 

In 1977, it dropped further, -1%

“Expectation postponed” made their hearts so sick, that many realized the Watchtower was not an organization run by God. 

How do you dismiss scripture, Eoin?  How do you read God’s word that condemns false prophets and ignore it?  Was there ever an instance that God told the nation of Israel to tolerate it?  Think of the generations of JWs that have put up with false dates and changing doctrine; hanging on because the authority over them so thoroughly convinced them it was “Jehovah’s will”, that they remain faithful to the organization!

 “And the Lord said to me, “The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. 15 Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who prophesy in My name, whom I did not send, and who say, ‘Sword and famine shall not be in this land’—‘By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed! 16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; they will have no one to bury them—them nor their wives, their sons nor their daughters—for I will pour their wickedness on them.’”  Jer 14:14-16

Isn’t this exactly what the organization teaches, that no sword or famine will come upon the Watchtower?  If we take all of this with a grain of salt, then we are blind to God’s righteous expectations to follow his Word closely.  Ezek 14:21; Rev chapter 6

It appears you are attempting to defend a sinking ship.  I truly pray you get off before its too late.

 

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14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Are you saying they are not?

 

Didn't you just say that they did?

 

Didn't you just say Witnesses spoke of nothing else?

 

Do you think it is not?

All that you are pointing out were quotes from the organization.  But you know that, right?  Matthew's words are:

IT'S AMAZING HOW YOU CAN TAKE THE WORDS "6,000 YEARS OF MANS EXISTENCE WILL END" AND MAKING IT END IN 1975 AND CONCLUDE THAT IT REALLY DIDN'T SAY THAT AT ALL.

 

 

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Usually before I spotlight a video for proof of my point, I go there to see that it really does that.

 

Should you not add: "It is so important that I didn't go there?"

 

 

What about the "nourishing spiritual food" of 1975?  Do you have a comment, or do you prefer to avoid the topic at hand?

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5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Some were. I was there in 1975 and I was not looking to a date. That was because some were not. So I can't see an issue of any significance any more than expectation postponed makes the heart sick. Were you there? Did you attach too much to human chronological speculation at the time?

I watched the video, and to be honest, if you were one of those people attending the convention where the second speaker was giving the address, you would be hard pressed not to get excited, and NOT look to the date 1975..

Of course, the friends who attended that convention were just some, out of the rest of the brotherhood and not all who attended the convention would have been convinced, just like not all are convinced about some ideas today (the overlapping generation :)).

I am wondering if after this series of talks, the Slave realised they had taken it a bit too far. There must have been discussions by brothers who pointed out the scrioture which makes it clear the Bible gives no date (like the brother in the video of the last convention) so then when the idea reached the UK it was perhaps already more watered down..

My step dad sold his skis because he thought he wouldn't use them again, he was living in central Europe, but my mother living in the uk at the time doesn't even recall anything special going on, and neither do I. But I was only very young...

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Usually before I spotlight a video for proof of my point, I go there to see that it really does that.

 

I think he/she means that they didn't check the source of the video, but did listen to it. It is quite believable that the recordings are genuine, however the narrative interjection is obviously from an apostate.

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46 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

6000 years of man's existence did end in 1975.

 

31 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

ACCORDING to the Jewish calendar, Thursday, September 16, 1993, was the festival day of Rosh Hashanah. By tradition the shofar, or ram’s-horn trumpet, was then sounded to proclaim the incoming of the new year. That year is 5754 (Jewish calendar), and it runs from September 16, 1993, to September 5, 1994.

Nana,  how does this defend a false prophesy, or perhaps that isn’t your purpose?  Dan 7:25; Matt 24:36; Matt 16:1-4  I think @Matthew9969 is pointing out that 1975 was preached to be the end of mankind as we know it - Armageddon.   

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

I think he/she means that they didn't check the source of the video, but did listen to it. It is guite believable that the recordings are genuine, however the narrative interjection is obviously from an apostate.

Thank you, Anna.  I really couldn’t belief he thought I didn’t watch the video, thus I didn’t respond regarding it.

You say, “obviously, from an apostate”.  You must mean, according to Watchtower’s definition, no? Not according to scripture?   Doesn’t this mean that within the organization itself, there are many hidden apostates who refused to accept 1975?  In fact, if they reject any doctrine, such as “overlapping generation”, wouldn’t they also be apostates? 

If anyone leads another through false predictions and teachings, they themselves are apostates; and for those who gulp these teachings down, they become apostates also, according to scripture. (Gal 1:8,9; 2 Tim 4:3-5) Where does that leave the entire membership of the organization, but as a confusing plethora of apostates?     Ezek 2:6; Jer 51:7;Rev 2:20,21

By such definitions, no one should be speaking to each other in the organization, but it is those who stand up for truth in Christ and speak it, that are labeled and “killed” as an apostate. Mark 13:13; John 16:2; Matt 25:6; Heb 13:13; Rev 11:3,7-10; Luke 17:33,37

 

 

 

apostate-watchtower-letter-1980.jpg

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3 hours ago, Witness said:

You say, “obviously, from an apostate”.

By that I meant that the person who put this video together, and commented halfway through it, obviously has an agenda. Witnesses who did not accept 1975 at the time most likely did not have an agenda. They just went by what the scripture says, just as was shown in the 2017 convention video....

When I say I do not believe in the overlapping generation I have no agenda or desire to make others accept my view.

And that excerpt from a letter to the BOE (I think) is rather unfortunately understood since no one can control your thoughts, so that particular excerpt is talking about someone who has abandoned the teachings and taken up another belief. The letter mentions "extended" effort to readjust thinking,  which indicates this is more than just mere speculative thoughts which would normally have no real bearing on a Christian's life, I mean someone not believing the overlapping generation is hardly a cause for concern especially if it does not have an impact on anything else that the person does. But the person who is being counseled in that letter evidently has a major problem with most of the beliefs which impacts more than just his thoughts. So this is talking about a case where a JW joins or adopts the beliefs of another religion. He may not be promoting it, but he is clearly "standing away" and "abandoning" his former belief.

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6 hours ago, Witness said:

All that you are pointing out were quotes from the organization.  But you know that, right?  Matthew's words are:

IT'S AMAZING HOW YOU CAN TAKE THE WORDS "6,000 YEARS OF MANS EXISTENCE WILL END" AND MAKING IT END IN 1975 AND CONCLUDE THAT IT REALLY DIDN'T SAY THAT AT ALL.

Yes, because if the organization did "say that at all," they would have done it through "quotes from the organization," - and I think even he acknowledged the quotes disprove the allegation.

@Matthew9969 has stumbled across something that is misrepresented and exaggerated, but at root, it is based upon something that did happen. A lot of people did get pumped up back then. @Anna's dad even sold his skis, practically guaranteeing that he would put on weight, and it is all the GB's fault! Please, Witness - 42 years is a long time to be bitter. It is a long time to still say to our resident fisherman:

6 hours ago, Witness said:

  I truly pray you get off before its too late.

You're joking! This is something you pray about?

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27 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Please, Witness - 42 years is a long time to be bitter. It is a long time to still say to our resident fisherman:

It’s not about being bitter, Tom.  It’s about our tolerance to lies – rotten fruit/spiritual food -  and our avoidance of truth. Luke 6:43-45; 2 Thess 2:9-12

God has never condoned deception and lies, and 42 years is nothing to the Father.

And yes, I do pray for JWs to wake up and get out.  Rev 18:4-8 

 

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@Anna, thank you for your explanation.

It is very sobering to think that JWs can speak vocally against the trinity, but not speak just as vocally against the failed doctrine of their own leaders.  If a JW sees the grave error of those leading them, and says nothing, what sets them apart from Christendom?   Rev 13:16,17

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

@Anna's dad even sold his skis, practically guaranteeing that he would put on weight,

Hey, leave my dad out of this! He's doing very well actually, he's a thin elder.

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21 minutes ago, Witness said:

It is very sobering to think that JWs can speak vocally against the trinity, but not speak just as vocally against the failed doctrine of their own leaders.  If a JW sees the grave error of those leading them, and says nothing, what sets them apart from Christendom?   Rev 13:16,17

One thing is vocally defending the true nature of God, where Christendom has created a mystery pretzel which alienates people from having a relationship with him, and instead worship and pray to his son, and another is criticizing something which has been interpreted in all honesty and as an encouragement to those who are awaiting God's promises for the earth.

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10 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Do you know how many years it has been since Adam's creation , according to the Bible?

 Do you dispute that 1975 was the 6000th year since Adam's creation according to the Bible?  

If so, what about it do you dispute?

My first two posts cover it.

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3 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

 

I just now read and listened , but did not see your answer to my question.

Nana, did Armageddon come in 1975, as the leaders of the Watchtower promised?

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31 minutes ago, Anna said:

One thing is vocally defending the true nature of God, where Christendom has created a mystery pretzel which alienates people from having a relationship with him, and instead worship and pray to his son, and another is criticizing something which has been interpreted in all honesty and as an encouragement to those who are awaiting God's promises for the earth.

The generation timeline is a mystery pretzel.

 The timetable of Armageddon is a mystery pretzel.

There is no reason man cannot give Jesus relative worship, now and in the Kingdom.  Rev 5:12-14; Heb 1:6; Matt 28:9,17; John 9:38; 5:23 

Having a relationship with God requires refinement from idolatry, that an organization can bring one salvation.  Acts 4:12; Acts 17:24,25

God’s promises are given to those who seek out Christ and buy his “refined gold”, free of false prophesy and the lie that an earthly organization is Zion; when it is God’s Temple of anointed ones – those being “trampled” by a false priesthood that is costing the Watchtower millions in lawsuits. Rev 3:18; Isa 2:1-5; 43:10-13; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17;2 Cor 6:16; Rev 14:1; Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:1,4-8

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apostate-watchtower-letter-1980.jpg

 

5 hours ago, Anna said:

I say I do not believe in the overlapping generation

 

Bit of care needed here I would suggest.

Apostasy is a state of mind. Jesus showed that a state of mind constitutes the relevant sin when he stated that "everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt.5:28.

No one is condemned by men until a sin has been seen to be committed, but Jehovah can (like Jesus) read the heart (Pro.21:2) and will judge the intent that has the potential to become the sin. They (Jehovah and Jesus), can determine accurately the outcome of intent (Gen.4:7).

So I would be inclined to tread warily with the tendency we have to delight in independent thinking regarding explanations of doctrine presented by those who have the responsibility to direct the Christian congregation.

Proverbs 11:9 states:"By his mouth the apostate brings his neighbor to ruin". Just stating inappropriately a disagreement with an explanation provided  is to venture onto a place that can only be described as "slippery ground" Ps.73:18.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

I wasn't a witness then

35 minutes ago, Witness said:

did Armageddon come in 1975, as the leaders of the Watchtower promised

 

I was ...and they didn't.

I sure they would have welcomed it if it had come as they would have, and probably still do, felt like Paul who said:

"Now if I am to live on in the flesh, this is a fruitage of my work; yet what I would choose, I do not make known. I am torn between these two things, for I do desire the releasing and the being with Christ, which is, to be sure, far better. However, it is more necessary for me to remain in the flesh for your sakes." Ph 1:22-24

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2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

So I would be inclined to tread warily with the tendency we have to delight in independent thinking regarding explanations of doctrine presented by those who have the responsibility to direct the Christian congregation.

I agree. If the overlapping generation ever becomes a part of the questions for baptism, then I might begin to worry. But as it stands today, it is merely an opinion much as the 1975 thing was. I do not see an explicit scripture either proving or disproving it, so I think one is at liberty to decide whether it makes sense to them or not. Is it even a doctrine?

P.S. That letter to the BOE clearly applies to someone who takes up the beliefs of another religion, as I explained in a few posts further up.

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5 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I wasn't a witness then, but as far as I can tell, they didn't say that.

Much clearer, though, to me is what some desperately want them to have said, including that.

However, what I was asking is whether  you know how many years it has been since Adam's creation , according to the Bible?

 And do you dispute that 1975 was the 6000th year since Adam's creation according to the Bible?  

And If so, what about it do you dispute?

If you can listen to the video again, you will see that the leaders were very convincing that 1975 was the date Armageddon was to come.  The first speaker is Fred Franz, the past president of the Watchtower.  The other speaker is a district overseer, Charles Sinutko.  There is another recorded talk by a district overseer where he used the phrase, “Stayin Alive ‘till ‘75”.  There are many Watchtower references concerning the date, but you won’t find them in the recent collections of the organization’s website.    

I do not put my faith in any literal timetable because Jesus expects us to find the answers from him that we need to know, at the time we need to know it. John 6:27; Matt 13:44,36,51 

 If we are to look at chronology, wouldn’t we be just like the Pharisees who sought a sign for the coming Kingdom?  Yet, the Wt. has set many dates regardless of Jesus’ words.  They have been dogmatic about ignoring Jesus’ words.

Jesus said, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed." 

    Hello guest!

Obviously, that 1975 marked the date of 6,000 years of the existence of mankind has nothing to do with the sign of Christ’s coming, but in 1975 Watchtower leaders expressed it as a very big deal.  Men disregarded Jesus’ warning of Matt 16:4, and went with it anyway as they have done so since the beginning of the organization.   Should it be dismissed that Jesus said any who do so are a “wicked and adulterous generation”? 

How do the Watchtower leaders present this false prophesy today?

“This is the way of an adulterous woman:
She eats and wipes her mouth,
And says, “I have done no wickedness.”  Prov 30:20; Rev 2:20; 17:4-6

The Watchtower has a history of chart-making, from Russel and the pyramid measurements, to the “overlapping generation” – all based on a date.  1 Cor 2:13,14

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I want to make my contribution to this conversation only because of those who have said "to abandon this religion".

I claim to be one of the few who is allowed to rediscover some "absolute truths" as I rediscover, in honest conscience, some doctrines (only a few) and practically all the official prophecies (practically all) of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Some may think that I am "an apostate" for this reason but it is not. Jehovah will judge - Romans 14:10

That being said I would like to answer those who say "leave this religion".

My question is: to go where?

Should we go to religions who have taught abominations like the hell of fire, the trinity, the mother of God, innate immortality of the human soul, predestination, limbo, purgatory, and so on?

We should associate with those religions that have erased the Name of God from the Bible and their adoration by stupid controversy "do we know the exact pronunciation"?

Should we associate with those religions that have massacred millions of innocent people in wars of religion, crusades, inquisitions, witch-robbers? Those who have invented and used the most ingenious torture machines that history has known?

Or should we be "atheists" as if the mistakes of a religion fall on God?

Or does this talk show that a religion is the same as the other?

Dears Mathew9969 and Witness I would like to illustrate a simple and clear point.

Any Watchtower errors do not make false religion a little bit more truth.

As I wrote at the beginning, I enumerated many things about Jehovah's Witness's official intent.

By the way, I question 1914 (which is still unaltered) so you can imagine what I think of 1975, the method to get there, and the conclusion that that date would have led to Armageddon.

I know that there have been errors (too many) and that certain statements have been more serious than those which are now being sought to make them believe.

On the other hand these mistakes are scientifically magnified to try to prove that we are a "false religion".

Generally these polemic sites are very good at finding the "right writing" to try to prove that they are right or that "there is no truth".

In their desire to "find the doctrinal or prophetic error," however, escapes a profound truth to them.

What was the people who were evicted and who was disciplined by Jehovah in biblical history?

Was Israel or Egypt?

From whom did the "false prophets" come from Israel or from Nineveh?

What is the difference between "discipline" and "destruction"?

The people of God, in history, have evaded many times and for various reasons.

However, discipline is always served for a purpose: to be brought back with mercy - Joel 3: 19-21

I would like to ask this question.

When Jeremiah, Isaiah, Joel, or other prophets saw the people of God turn away, what did they do?

They said, "This is not the people of God"?

They said, "Now I'm going to see if there is a better religion in Babylon or Egypt"?

Israel was no longer the people of God?

The man of iniquity (Christianity) will not be brought back with mercy because it is the work of the devil. is a lie that will be eliminated.

God's people, on the other hand, will be disciplined and brought back with mercy.

How can I know that this people, despite the mistakes, is the people of God?

As I wrote at the beginning, it is the fundamental doctrines (which Christianity has rejected).

we pay attention to this scripture: "And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to war against the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the duty of bearing witness to Jesus" - Revelation 12 : 17

What is the only people who bear witness to Jesus and do it globally?

Are they Christianity?

Absolutely no.

Let's be objective.

I would be very careful before saying "leave this religion".

We would make a much greater sin.

Through the study of the prophecies, some have realized that Jehovah is about to come to a strict discipline against his own people.

This does not teach the "governing body" (indeed, they say purification took place in 1919),

This affirmation puts me in opposition to many of my brothers.

it is indisputable that many brothers are not capable of being questioned,

it is indisputable that, for many brothers, if you say something "against the official channel" you are automatically an apostate.

Unfortunately, it is also indisputable that some brothers have idolized some people or even buildings or websites - Matthew 15: 3-10

For these reasons, and for other reasons too, Jehovah's discipline will come to you - Joel 1: 5, 6

The discipline will surely be hard and for many brothers it will be a surprise.

However the people leading and sanctifying the name of God (Jehovah), who preached in all the inhabited earth and speaks of the Kingdom of God bears witness to Jesus, what will be the people who will be saved at Armageddon.

During the discipline of Jehovah many "fake brothers" will no longer exist. Probably there will not be anyone who has idolized men above the Word of God.

We can not know how many will be, how many will remain.

One thing, however, is certain.

Christianity with its lies will not be "restored with mercy" but simply destroyed - 2 Thessalonians 2: 8

So I encourage both parties to make sure of everything - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

This is not a football game.

Both parties may have the humility to understand what God's will is and do everything possible to save their lives.

 

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1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

My question is: to go where?

28 Then Jesus said, Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.”

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15 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Proverbs 11:9 states:"By his mouth the apostate brings his neighbor to ruin"

only NWT say "apostate"

other translations have not such word!! they use; hypocrite, godless, feigner

be careful about NWT translators :) this is just one example of change

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On 11/10/2017 at 16:33, Anna said:

But I was only very young...

I was 15 at 1975.  And hear on my ears that brothers (elders) making calculations, while sitting on bar table with glass of drink, on this, in days from 1975 -1977, how many years Adam has been alone before Eve. Because this number of years can explain why nothing happened in 1975. :)))))))) 

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36 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

)) but that is exactly what JW members doing for decades in the same organization. Not need to left JW and go in different church. :) 

The reason I still "throw my hat into the ring" with Jehovah's Witnesses, is that I do not expect much from human beings ... and even less when billions of dollars are floating around completely unaccounted for .... but the 15% Core Truths are so VALUABLE, that I am willing to allow "my hat" to be stomped into the mud by those marching to the 85% drivel.

I will endure it ... but that does not mean I have to like it.

I like it even less for all those kind, gentle souls who in obeying their natural conscience, have been chased away by the 85% drivel, wielded with a steel fist in a feathered, velvet glove.

.

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38 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but the 15% Core Truths

Hi James. But you know how the illustration from WT magazine said - "Would you drink a water from a glass where most of  water is clear, healthy water but only one drop of poisson??

And you made another ratio - 15% clear healthy water and 85% of questionable substance :)  

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21 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Hi James. But you know how the illustration from WT magazine said - "Would you drink a water from a glass where most of  water is clear, healthy water but only one drop of poisson??

And you made another ratio - 15% clear healthy water and 85% of questionable substance :)  

I am 71 years old, above average intelligence, and have been paying attention for over 50 years ... I know the difference ... and can filter the good from the bad from the ugly.

Not everybody has these advantages, and these I cry for .... they are being chased away and persecuted from within.

I analyze the questionable substance. isolate it, and TRY to avoid it.

Sir Isaac Newton, arguably the smartest natural human that ever lived .... believed as Jehovah's Witnesses do about the 15% Core Truth, based on reason and logic and common sense, and the Bible alone.

Even he got sidetracked with Alchemy, and politics.

.

 

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Dear Srecko, if you read and understand half of what I wrote, you will understand that there is no need for me to answer a single word.
The scriptures are all and anyone who, if he wishes, can meditate on these scriptures.
The people of God are one and only one who brings the name of Jehovah and preaches "the good news of the Kingdom" throughout the earth.
I only know one.
Talking to who's angry or wanting to have the last word is not useful to me.
Everyone should make their own evaluations - John 17:17

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:
18 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Proverbs 11:9 states:"By his mouth the apostate brings his neighbor to ruin"

only NWT say "apostate"

other translations have not such word!! they use; hypocrite, godless, feigner

be careful about NWT translators :) this is just one example of change

You know, some might feel that this gives the NWT an edge, particularly when one uses other translations for comparative study. Koelher and Baumgartner link apostasy with the word used here.

I think the word "apostate" fits quite well with the activity described in the proverb in following the example of the arch-apostate. I mean apostates are godless, hypocritical feigners, particularly those who want to impart their ideas to others as "enlightenment" wouldn't you say?

Actually, I rather like the reference in Mclintock and Strong regarding this one: "soiled (i.e. with sin), impious:-hypocrite"

Now, would that be ordinary or extra-ordinary sin?

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52 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Actually, I rather like the reference in Mclintock and Strong regarding this one: "soiled (i.e. with sin), impious:-hypocrite"

Now, would that be ordinary or extra-ordinary sin?

That would be the sin of an adulterous harlot, the true apostates, which the early Jewish leaders were in Christ’s day, and the spiritual “Jewish” leaders are, in the organization today.    Matt 12:34; Matt 23:34,35,37; 1 Cor 6:15,16; Rev 13:11,13-17; 17:5,6 

 

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@Israeli Bar Avaddhon

Sir, I have put your quotes in green:

My question is: to go where?

Sir, we go to the one who has the sayings of eternal life, which Srecko highlighted with scripture.   It is the Son of God. It isn’t the Watchtower, since the leaders admit to not being inspired and haven’t been since the beginning.  Rev 2:2,9; Rev 3:8-13

Can you see that the disciples followed only Jesus?

“But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.  Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  John 6:68,69

Should we go to religions who have taught abominations like the hell of fire, the trinity, the mother of God, innate immortality of the human soul, predestination, limbo, purgatory, and so on?

“Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.” 1 John 2:15,16  That includes the Watchtower. 

Any Watchtower errors do not make false religion a little bit more truth.

Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

 “Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this (literal) mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.”

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.  John 4:10,21,23,24

I would be very careful before saying "leave this religion".

“And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.  For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.  Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.  In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’  Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.”

This cannot refer to Christendom, because as you say, God’s people are being disciplined.  This refers to the Watchtower, where God’s anointed ones are “camped”.  Rev 20:9

 “Flee from the midst of Babylon,
And every one save his life!
Do not be cut off in her iniquity,
For this is the time of the Lord’s vengeance;
He shall recompense her.
 Babylon was a golden cup in the Lord’s hand,
That made all the earth drunk.
The nations drank her wine;
Therefore the nations are deranged.”

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” Yet, the Watchtower promotes itself as Zion.

 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

38 Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” John 18:36-38a

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”  John 14:6

Is Jesus making an exception to this rule for an organization fabricated through the use of worldly tools and situated in, Satan’s world?  Think about it.  God and Christ are pure, while the organization is filthy rich, and run as other corporate entities are, in Satan’s world.  Why would Jesus use Satan’s resources, who literally wants to kill off all Christ’s anointed brothers (Gen 3:15) and condone anything in this system?  The Watchtower consistently teaches you to be ‘no part of the word’ yet they are so mired down in its dung, JWs see only the icing on the; well,....  It is blasphemy for an organization so full of false prophesy, false security, sin against victims of child abuse,, lawsuits,  and disfellowshipped individuals who desire to follow the truth in Christ – to call itself “the truth” and “Zion”.   

It is the delusion of 2 Thess 2:9-12 and the ‘spirit-breathed’ Beast of Revelation.  (spirit-directed organization)

“Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.”  Rev 13:1

Read further and see how this Beast comes against God’s Temple/anointed ones; (1 Cor 3:16,17) accompanied by a false prophet who authorizes the “trampling”.  Matt 24:15; Rev 11:1-3

During the discipline of Jehovah many "fake brothers" will no longer exist. Probably there will not be anyone who has idolized men above the Word of God.  We can not know how many will be, how many will remain.

The faithful to God and Christ are found “outside the camp”, despised as “garbage”, persecuted by their own brethren for following the one Master, Jesus Christ. Matt 6:24; John 15:6; Heb 13:12-15; 1 Cor 4:13; Matt 5:11; 24:48-51

“Woe to those who decree unrighteous decrees,
Who write misfortune,
Which they have prescribed
To rob the needy of justice,
And to take what is right from the poor of My people,
That widows may be their prey,
And that they may rob the fatherless.
What will you do in the day of punishment,
And in the desolation which will come from afar?
To whom will you flee for help?
And where will you leave your glory?
Without Me they shall bow down among the prisoners,
And they shall fall among the slain.”

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.

Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.” 

Then the rest of the trees of his forest
Will be so few in number
That a child may write them.”  Isa 10:1-4, 12, 19

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire Therefore by their fruits you will know them.  Matt 7:18,20

Please, do not perceive the large print as “yelling”, but to help connect the importance of Christ’s words – although it is a trumpet call to leave the crumbling wall of lies behind. Rev 11:2,3   Ezek chapter 13 is having its second fulfillment. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/10/2017 at 8:38 PM, Matthew9969 said:

To be fair, the watchtower isn't the only religion to claim they are a prophet and give one if not a few dates of the end of the world:

Years ago I discovered in my research that almost all the days are taken, and therein lies the key for spotting the end of the world.

    Hello guest!

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7 hours ago, tromboneck said:

And both of you are quite modest!

:)))) ohhh we just shared private informations between two of us :) ehhehe and accidently entertained, amused the viewers of this topic. But thanks  for reaction. It is possible to look on us in the way as you quote.

Maybe in some other circumstances (knowing  me in person) you would be came to conclusion that i am quite normal :) modest.   

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On 11/11/2017 at 7:31 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

For these reasons, and for other reasons too, Jehovah's discipline will come to you - Joel 1: 5, 6  The discipline will surely be hard and for many brothers it will be a surprise. However the people leading and sanctifying the name of God (Jehovah), who preached in all the inhabited earth and speaks of the Kingdom of God bears witness to Jesus, what will be the people who will be saved at Armageddon.

.

Since they have greatly facilitated the preaching work into all the inhabited earth, perhaps God will go easier on them than you think.

Plus, by reading and meditating on the Word daily, and reflecting upon how things turn out, there is no reason to think they do not allow their Bible study to adequately discipline themselves. All of us need discipline, and we all mostly get it through this means. 

I think that you are at your best when you use your talents to focus upon your first remarks. Especially since you would never have discovered these things without their efforts and that of their forerunners.

 

On 11/11/2017 at 7:31 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

My question is: to go where?

Should we go to religions who have taught abominations like the hell of fire, the trinity, the mother of God, innate immortality of the human soul, predestination, limbo, purgatory, and so on?

We should associate with those religions that have erased the Name of God from the Bible and their adoration by stupid controversy "do we know the exact pronunciation"?

Should we associate with those religions that have massacred millions of innocent people in wars of religion, crusades, inquisitions, witch-robbers? Those who have invented and used the most ingenious torture machines that history has known?

Or should we be "atheists" as if the mistakes of a religion fall on God?

 

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15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since they have greatly facilitated the preaching work into all the inhabited earth, perhaps God will go easier on them than you think.

Plus, by reading and meditating on the Word daily, and reflecting upon how things turn out, there is no reason to think they do not allow their Bible study to adequately discipline themselves. All of us need discipline, and we all mostly get it through this means. 

I think that you are at your best when you use your talents to focus upon your first remarks. Especially since you would never have discovered these things without their efforts and that of their forerunners.

 

 

In fact, dear TrueTomharley,
my observations do not intend to exalt themselves above what is still the people of God.
Each of us will be disciplined and this also includes me.
Those who are sure to be standing will not let them fall.
Many things I have understood only by the people of Jehovah and his researches.
So you do not have to believe that I have written these things because I feel more enlightened or smarter.
However, "telling the truth" also means admit that we are wrong with some things and that it is about to get a discipline.
This is in harmony with the Scriptures.

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8 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

So you do not have to believe that I have written these things because I feel more enlightened or smarter.

Understood.

 

9 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

However, "telling the truth" also means admit that we are wrong with some things and that it is about to get a discipline.
This is in harmony with the Scriptures.

I think use of the expressions "tacking" and "the light gets brighter" are tacit admissions that we have been wrong with some things. Prominent ones in Bible times were wrong about many things, too. But I cannot recall one of them apologizing, other than Paul to the high priest, and few here would have demanded such an apology from him.

It is enough to occasionally admit to blunders, such as was done with overemphasis on 1975, and cover the rest with tacking and lights getting brighter. Everyone knows that humans are imperfect and make mistakes. What is important is to conduct oneself with humility and to 'pour oneself out' in God's service. This the GB has done, IMO.

"Leadership by apology" is the model in vogue today in the Western world. I don't think it is required, nor that it does any good. Honest-hearted persons do not demand it. Persons not honest-hearted are not satisfied with it.

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Dear TrueTomHareley,

I think you did not understand the point or maybe I did not explain it well.
Humility is well accepted and, as you rightly said, it is appreciated that the GB has admitted some mistakes.
The problem I have highlighted is that some have become idolaters, if you can not question an understanding, even if you do it with the scriptures, it means that you consider certain people above the Word of God.
Instead, since they admit that they are not inspired (and this is to be praised), you should also be able to discuss some doctrines and prophecies.
Instead, among the brothers there is the mentality that "you can not do it" because only the others have the permission of God.
Only others can have the understanding of the Word of God and if you say that it is not true and assert that it is not scriptural, it is a risk of dissociation.

For example, the GB says that the discipline we are talking about has already happened in 1919 but if I say "it is not true" and I try to argue in the light of the scriptures, what is my risk?
If you talk about so many things, what's the risk?
This is one of the reasons why we will be disciplined (not the only reason) because we have not paid attention to the Word of God.
There have been personalities and there are still.
I know the GB encourages you to study and meditate but you can not say anything that goes against their intentions even if they have changed it dozens of times.
This is a fact.
A person who wants to argue on certain intentions does not necessarily want to create a sect or a division.
A person who recovers the intentions of 1914 is not necessarily an apostate.

If I, in conscience, understood through the Bible that certain prophecies were badly interpreted (and I would like to remember that understanding a prophecy can mean death) what should I do?
The Bible, to give you an example, predicted that the preaching work would be suppressed by the king of the north (Russia) but the GB never said anything.
So should I be silent?
The Bible has foreseen that the prohibition will extend throughout the inhabited land (and hence the hopes of Brother Sanderson are miserable) and so I, who is right or wrong, should I be silent?
We must pay attention to the Bible, not to the people.
This also applies to those who "can not be questioned"

My total loyalty goes to the Word of God, not to a group of people or even to a building.
No one wants to insult or degrade anyone, but each of us should be adult enough and mature to study God's Word personally and also admit the possibility that some things that have been taught are wrong.
and these "some things" can also be vital things

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12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Humility is well accepted and, as you rightly said, it is appreciated that the GB has admitted some mistakes.

If you concede they are humble, have admitted some mistakes, and are tireless workers - and yet you would still be critical of them, you run the risk of being more exacting than God - or less merciful than God. Why would you want to run that risk?

For every verse there is about the virtue of arguing, there are ten about acquiescing. For every verse there is about debating, there are ten about obeying. I don't want to hash them all out. You know them as well as I. 

You don't have to parrot stuff you can't get your head around it. Simply say "I can't get my head around this." Get behind whatever you can. Sit out what you can't. 

12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

A person who wants to argue on certain intentions does not necessarily want to create a sect or a division.

No, but it has that effect. Why go there?

12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

The Bible, to give you an example, predicted that the preaching work would be suppressed by the king of the north (Russia) but the GB never said anything.
So should I be silent?
The Bible has foreseen that the prohibition will extend throughout the inhabited land (and hence the hopes of Brother Sanderson are miserable) and so I, who is right or wrong, should I be silent?

As long as you are not obnoxious about it, you are fine. But you sound as though you might be obnoxious about it, buttonholing brothers and trying to convince them how your way is right and theirs is wrong. Yes, you could make trouble for yourself that way. Why do it? 

These days, perhaps chastened by 1975,  they say such things as 'prophesy is best understood after the fact.' They don't do anti-types. That certainly cannot be said to be reckless. Why should you be reckless in their stead - making assertions that may or may not pan out? Say, if you must, 'maybe it will turn out some day that.....' and leave it at that.

Unlimited free speech is a Western concept, not a biblical one. The Bible, as you know, speaks of ones whose mouths it it necessary to shut - others who should be muzzled, others rejected after a warning or two for insisting upon their own way. 

12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

each of us should be adult enough and mature to study God's Word personally and also admit the possibility that some things that have been taught are wrong.

Sure. Nobody has a problem with this. it is setting yourself up as the public avenger of right that will make you trouble. 

It all boils down to how we are taught. Are we truly 'taught by Jehovah?' Or are we taught by means of clever humans out-arguing each other?

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You too can not be objective.
the watch tower is the instrument and not the ultimate end of worship.
The tool is useful for achieving a goal (in this case, understanding the Bible).
If the instrument becomes worshiped then we can no longer understand it.
The Bible encourages digging and looking personally - Proverbs 2: 1-5
Biblical prophecy makes us understand that God will punish his people for being idolatrous.
This may be true or it may be false.
How can we do it to understand it?
Studying the Bible.
The Bible is the only authority (try to re-establish it: the Bible is the only authority).
This instrument (the watchtower) has abided by the Bible many times, but sometimes it has used personalities and human ideas above the Bible (1975 is an example and there are others).
Who should I obey?
To the Bible.
Now you will say, "The Bible says we must listen to some men"
I say, "No, it is not so"
How can we establish it?
Studying the Bible.
Prophecy says that a certain "guide" will become dead because some have put people above the Word of God.
This may be true or it may be false.
How can we establish it?
Studying the Bible.
You are convinced that you should not "discuss" the intentions of certain people, is not it?
I tell you that the Bible, and only the Bible, has the last word.
You might find that the Bible teaches some things you do not expect.
What can I tell you?
Wait and see what's happening - Joel 1: 1-8

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I have nothing to add and this conversation is closed.
Everyone should make their own assessment.
Every now and then I will write articles that I consider important in the light of the Scriptures.
Anyone who wants can read and compare with the Bible.
Anyone who does not want to, wishes for everything

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1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Biblical prophecy makes us understand that God will punish his people for being idolatrous

I think your definition of 'idolatrous' is off.

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

How can we do it to understand it?
Studying the Bible

Right on. Study it.

 

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I have nothing to add and this conversation is closed.

Okay. Everyone else go home.

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On 11/11/2017 at 7:31 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but the 15% Core Truths are so VALUABLE, that I am willing to allow "my hat" to be stomped into the mud by those marching to the 85% drivel.

Srecko compared it to healthy water of a questionable substance.

Jesus is “living water”. John 7:38  If offered Watchtower’s glass of tainted water, and a glass of Jesus’ living water directly from the source, surely you would choose the latter.  Your comment establishes that Wt. is unable to bring anyone to this source.  Approaching Jesus directly is the more difficult route to take, because of the ramifications we suffer by doing so;  but in the long run it guarantees eternal life. Luke 9:24   Just from the little that I gather about you, you are a determined fighter and someone whom I have come to admire; but why would we back off fighting for eternal life and settle for allowing our “hat”/mind to be stomped into the mud by men who are unable, and really could care less, about offering eternal life?

“Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:  looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:14,15 

This is referring to wormwood, a “bitter root”, that scriptures mention that God “sends” to his wayward people when they have sinned against him.  Jer 9:13-16; Lam 3:15; 2 Thess 2:11,12

“The leaves and flowers are very bitter, with a characteristic odour, resembling that of thujone. The root has a warm and aromatic taste.  (A Modern Herbal) 

Hebrews 12:14,15 is associating fallen anointed ones to this root, whose demeanor and teachings appear palatable and inviting, perhaps even speaking as Christ. Matt 7:15-17; Mark 13:21,22; 1 John 4:1; Rev 13:11; 20:10

“Wormwood oil contains the chemical thujone, which excites the central nervous system.  However, it can also cause seizures and other adverse effects.” (webmd.com)

Intoxications have resulted from the ingestion of an aqueous decoction of thujone containing plants, for their supposed abortifacient action. Death by overdose has been reported for wormwood”.  (The Essential Guide to Herbal Safety)

Anointed ones are compared to stars in the heavens. Matt 5:14,15; Phil 2:15  Those who wisely “shine” as “messengers” (angels) are in the “right hand” of Jesus. (Mal 2:7); Rev 1:20  Although they can be physically on the earth, they are secured in their “heavenly” position as stars in Jesus’ hand.  Eph 2:6; Rom 8:9; Heb 12:22,23

“Also, regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our dear brother Paul has written to you according to the wisdom given to him. 16 He speaks about these things in all his letters. There are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

 Therefore, dear friends, since you know this in advance, be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of lawless people and fall from your own stable position.  But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. 2 Pet 3:5-18

It is very possible for anointed ones to lose their position in the Body of Christ; forfeiting the promise of salvation.  Ps 101:7; Heb 12:16  They are the root who mislead “many” by their teachings.

In two places in Revelation a star is seen falling from heaven. Rev 8:10,11 names the star, Wormwood, and through its fall onto rivers and springs of water, (those basic true teachings) a symbolic “one third” of the waters become wormwood.  The symbolic meaning of three in scripture shows significant effect on a complete whole.  Take a large 100 year old ladle, stir well, and “many people die from the waters because they had become bitter”. 

The source of “bitter” fruit, begins at the root. Matt 12:33-37; 3:10

Revelation is like a puzzle, with each piece full of color and descriptions of the same scenario. 

Wormwood is the fallen star, “Beast from the earth”, false prophet, Harlot/ Governing Body and generally all major leaders of the Watchtower. It falls like a “burning torch”, hardly something to be missed, especially to the “elect”.  Would it not “light up the whole house” and appear to be from Christ?   Prov 5:3-5; Rev 13:11; Rev 17:1; Matt 5:15; Matt 24:24; Eph 2:20-24

The Wild Beast from the Sea is the locust/scorpion “Gentile” army that Wormwood releases from the abyss, after it falls from heaven; after it has spearheaded Satan’s plan into action. It is the gradual, steady growth of the now massive army of the Body of Elders who are the beating heart of the organization. Rev 13:1,4

 The description both in Revelation and Joel of the locusts, fit the actions and intentions of the Elder Body, exactly. Rev 9:7-11; Joel 2:3-11 By replacing the anointed priesthood, the result of the locusts’ “sting” and Wormwood’s water, brings spiritual affliction upon the unsealed anointed ones. ("seizures and other adverse effects")  Luke 22:24-26; Matt 24:48-51; Rev 9:4-6

The Beasts are Gog and Magog who have surround the camp of the holy people.  Rev 20:7-9 Both identities have convinced the multitude of JWs, that the bulk of Revelation is not about them and God’s anointed people, but about the rest of mankind.  They will be judged according to God’s righteous judgment; but God’s anointed people are subjected to this delusion of Satan’s, to test/sift each heart for their love of pure, healthy living water, or a barely potable, intoxicating cup from a questionable source.  Rev 18:2,3; Luke 22:31; Rev 12:1-4

“Then I saw three unclean spirits like frogs (it takes time to become a full-fledged lie)

coming from the dragon’s mouth, from the beast’s mouth (organization), and from the mouth of the false prophet.

 For they are demonic spirits performing signs, who travel (preaching work) to the kings (anointed ones) of the whole world (of God’s “inhabited dwelling”)  to assemble them for the battle on the great day of God, the Almighty.

 “Look, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who is alert and remains clothed (Heb 4:13; Matt 22:37) so that he may not go around naked and people see his shame.”  So they assembled the kings at the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."  Rev 16:13-16

In Ezekiel, Gog is destroyed in the valley of “Hamon-Gog” – the “multitude of Gog”, “a valley of graves”.  Joel 3:14 calls it, “the valley of decision”, where “multitudes” are found.  Ezek 39:11 

John 7:38 -  “The one who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.”

“Deep” meaning at the root, which is the heart.  Matt 13:18-23; Luke 6:45 

On 11/11/2017 at 8:51 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I analyze the questionable substance. isolate it, and TRY to avoid it.

 You are wise, but there are those contacted in the “preaching work” who are not as intelligent, (like me) and wouldn’t know how to avoid the poison.  Who is responsible when the person suffers from its affect; the one dangling the carrot, the one snatching it up… or both?

Since Satan also knows the core truths, he uses them to set the foundation for the lie.  Rev 13:2

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30 minutes ago, Witness said:

You are wise, but there are those contacted in the “preaching work” who are not as intelligent, (like me) and wouldn’t know how to avoid the poison.  Who is responsible when the person suffers from its affect; the one dangling the carrot, the one snatching it up… or both?

That is why I still choose Jehovah's Witnesses as the best bet humanity has .... because I personally know the difference. 

I do cry for those who do not .... but the problem is bigger than my ability to help.

I raised three children who are all strong in the Truth, and it is in my opinion due to two things:

1.) The Core Truths are so valuable that they are worth putting up with all the human crap that goes along with it, and

2.) I taught them what was real and what was not, and to not expect much from "clergy", no matter how disguised.

My wife and I are in the process of adopting orphan children ... and it is our intent to have them learn theology from Jehovah's Witnesses ... at the Kingdom Hall .... because even with 85% drivel and self aggrandizement, and wasted potential ...

...it's still the ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

Wisdom comes in knowing the difference.

.

 

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4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I raised three children who are all strong in the Truth, and it is in my opinion due to two things:

1.) The Core Truths are so valuable that they are worth putting up with all the human crap that goes along with it, and

2.) I taught them what was real and what was not, and to not expect much from "clergy", no matter how disguised.

These are not bad sentiments, James. Why can't you simply learn yourself - I suspect your kids have mastered it - to acquiesce to headship? Nobody is saying you have to kiss up to it. Just don't torpedo it every chance you get.

7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

My wife and I are in the process of adopting orphan children ... and it is our intent to have them learn theology from Jehovah's Witnesses ... at the Kingdom Hall .... because even with 85% drivel and self aggrandizement, and wasted potential ...

...it's still the ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

Anyone adopting orphan children is a hero, regardless of the shots I may take at him otherwise. But will you really portray the most important lesson you will teach them as 85% crap? I fear you will not hold on to them that way. 

Better to comb through the abundant evidence of first-century misdeeds and blunders and say "our guys are no worse than them, and somehow God made it work."

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On 11/10/2017 at 7:53 AM, Witness said:

Did the vast majority of JWs come to the conclusion that 1975 was the date of Armageddon – on their own? 

The vast majority didn't even know about it until ex-witnesses started spreading the word, and making it look like people missed out on something. 99.9% of witnesses continued with business as usual. Many others found out after reading the 1976 Watchtower, that some brethren had speculated after they were TOLD NOT TO...

But, I don't recall anyone at that time that was disappointed in my area. That became an added challenge the Watchtower had to address.

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4 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

Many others found out after reading the 1976 Watchtower, that some brethren had speculated after they were TOLD NOT TO...

Was Fred Franz, the vice president of the Society during that time period, one who was told NOT TO SPECULATE? And by who?   Or, could it have been the leaders who reviewed and gave a subsequent thumbs up to the 10/8/1968 Awake plus many other articles that apparently only misled .1% of the JW population at the time?  

That says something about the lack of interest in the magazines...or public announcements. 

 

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"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?
... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.
... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom." Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them'

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Watchtower March 2016 p26-28

"New World Translation in its “Glossary of Bible Terms” gives this definition of a prophet: “One through whom divine purposes are made known. Prophets acted as spokesmen for God, conveying not only predictions but also Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments.” Though you are not uttering predictions, you speak for God, proclaiming what is found in the Word of God.—Matt. 24:14.......................
Although we are not prophets in the absolute sense, by imitating the self-sacrificing spirit of such prophets as Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Hosea, we too can successfully accomplish Jehovah’s will for us today! "
 

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On 11/12/2017 at 8:13 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

The problem I have highlighted is that some have become idolaters, if you can not question an understanding, even if you do it with the scriptures, it means that you consider certain people above the Word of God.

Dear Israeli,

If one questions the boss in a workplace, what are the possibilities of not being fired? So, how many people in authority has anyone questioned? Keep in mind scripture also states to *respect* your elders. Hebrew 13:17, 1 Timothy 5:1-2, Proverbs 19:20, etc...

 

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1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

"prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom.

Isn't this what is being referred to as being a prophet in our time? Not someone who comes up with something new to predict. Duh!

Plus, prophet is in quotation marks. I think you know what that means.

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On 11/14/2017 at 10:54 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That is why I still choose Jehovah's Witnesses as the best bet humanity has .... because I personally know the difference. 

I do cry for those who do not .... but the problem is bigger than my ability to help.

I raised three children who are all strong in the Truth, and it is in my opinion due to two things:

1.) The Core Truths are so valuable that they are worth putting up with all the human crap that goes along with it, and

2.) I taught them what was real and what was not, and to not expect much from "clergy", no matter how disguised.

My wife and I are in the process of adopting orphan children ... and it is our intent to have them learn theology from Jehovah's Witnesses ... at the Kingdom Hall .... because even with 85% drivel and self aggrandizement, and wasted potential ...

...it's still the ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

Wisdom comes in knowing the difference.

.

 

jjnOYoYLrMyBpU0hUOcEsmDKHKKc1FcpGKyQwt1i

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On 12/4/2017 at 6:00 AM, Gone Fishing said:

Watchtower March 2016 p26-28

"New World Translation in its “Glossary of Bible Terms” gives this definition of a prophet: “One through whom divine purposes are made known. Prophets acted as spokesmen for God, conveying not only predictions but also Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments.” 
 

1924 "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914. (Watchtower 1924, p. 211)

1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)

1971 -  "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

“The true prophet never foretold simply to satisfy human curiosity. Every prediction related to God’s will, purpose, standards, or judgment. (

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) Often the future events foretold were the consequence of existing conditions; as the people sowed, so they would reap. The false prophets lulled the people and their leaders with soothing assurances that, despite their unrighteous course, God was still with them to protect and prosper them. (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
; compare 
    Hello guest!
.) it-2 pp. 694-698

“When faced with far-reaching decisions, we do not trust in our own wisdom but look to Jehovah and his organization for guidance.  

And just as a child seeks his parents’ protection when a storm rages, we seek protection in Jehovah’s organization when, like a thunderstorm, the problems of this world strike us.”  Wt 11/4/15 pp. 3-5

It-2 continued:  But the true prophet was not solely or even primarily a prognosticator, as has been shown. Rather, he was an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God’s mind on matters. (

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) Hence, it was not necessary to wait perhaps for years or generations to determine whether the prophet was true or false by fulfillment of a prediction. If his message contradicted God’s revealed will and standards, he was false. Thus, a prophet who foretold peace for Israel or Judah, at a time when the people were engaging in disobedience to God’s Word and Law, of necessity was false.

“Jehovah’s people enjoy a special environment of peace in the earthly part of his organization.”  Wt 15/7/15 

“For when they say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.”  1 Thess 5:3

“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.”  Col 2:8

 “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”  Deut 18:20 

On 12/4/2017 at 6:00 AM, Gone Fishing said:

Though you are not uttering predictions, you speak for God, proclaiming what is found in the Word of God.—Matt. 24:14.......................
Although we are not prophets in the absolute sense, by imitating the self-sacrificing spirit of such prophets as Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Hosea, we too can successfully accomplish Jehovah’s will for us today! "

 “‘Because they lead my people astray, saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash,  therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents, and I will send hailstones hurtling down, and violent winds will burst forth.  When the wall collapses, will people not ask you, “Where is the whitewash you covered it with?”  Ezek 13:10-12

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

flimsy partition

Iron [steel]  and miry [limey] clay

Which is the iron and which is the clay?  Scripture, or Watchtower quotes?  Shouldn't all doctrine be supported by scripture?

If you trust the men who support Watchtower history, you certainly will not perceive what the following scripture is telling us.  If you trust God's Word and his clear-cut definition outlined in Deut 18:20 concerning false prophesy, and compare it to Wt's history,  you may then comprehend what this scripture is revealing.  I certainly hope so.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,  not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.  (1914)  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."   

"In 1914—certainly a long time after 33 C.E.—Christ Jesus began his royal presence."  Wt 04/3/1

1914 is a Wt lie, along with all their failed prophesies.  The "son of perdition", the man of lawlessness is the elder body who rules over/sits in God's Temple.  That Temple consists of the anointed ones; and it has been defiled.   1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17  

 

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On 11/10/2017 at 9:40 AM, TrueTomHarley said:
On 11/10/2017 at 8:47 AM, Matthew9969 said:

All things are possible with God

Are you saying they are not?

I think, in retrospect, the GB as it existed during the late 60's and early 70's would have been better off explaining how all things are possible with God, particularly of him being able to create a rock so big, even he could not move it.

Inquiring minds want to know!

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The REASON we have extensive records of the screw ups, petty machinations, sins, lies, treachery, double dealing, and colossal waste of individual lives in the Hebrew Scriptures, is in part to demonstrate what evil that men with the very best of intentions can do, and do.

Remember ... these over-reaching and presumptuous men, greedy for power, and money and influence  ...were  nevertheless at that time "The Only Game In Town", as far as God showing favor to human mortals.   Same thing today.

Just as God did not favor mankind that evolved between punctuated creations over the aeons, of which we have millions of tons of hard evidence, "Homo Sapiens" were on their own, and not on a spiritual Path to eventually Inherit the Universe as a gift from God.

The first REAL humans .... "Homo Theocraticus", as it were ... were the direct creations of Jehovah God, and with that the potential for everlasting life so necessary to travel between stars at sub-light speeds ... but I digress .....

The Christian Congregation at its best is still composed of the same types of people the Jewish Congregations had to deal with ... and that will not change in the immediate future.

Get used to it!

We, for our own sanity and well being, HAVE to understand that ... and adapt and improvise if we are to survive with our wits about us.

The Watchtower of January 19th is incredibly important in that regard ... for people of discernment.

Try to survive, until changes happen.

By the way ... the most favorite thing I have EVER read in the Society's publications was in the old book "Things In Which It Is Impossible For God To Lie" ... page 384 ...paragraph 24 ... repeated 20 years later exactly, in the "Prince of Peace" book.

 

 

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On 1/2/2018 at 8:14 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Remember ... these over-reaching and presumptuous men, greedy for power, and money and influence  ...were  nevertheless at that time "The Only Game In Town", as far as God showing favor to human mortals.   Same thing today.

This, while true in ancient biblical times because we are told by God's word, is only a prop created by the gb/wt. The same can be said of each and every religious organization on the Earth today, if their followers will believe it. You see, the wt/gb have been saying they are "the only game in town" for so long, some people actually believe that they are. Its only those who choose to challenge that theory, who actually see that it is self professed and not "written in God's word". 

 

On 1/2/2018 at 8:14 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The Watchtower of January 19th is incredibly important in that regard ... for people of discernment.

This is wt talk at its finest. It poses the reader in the position of either you agree with the wt or you have no discernment. 

Question the answers JTR. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

You see, the wt/gb have been saying they are "the only game in town" for so long, some people actually believe that they are.

Who is the other game in town? Show me. Tell me how you know. Tell me what they have to show for themselves.

JTR will doubtless follow you and he'll make a lot less trouble here. Seriously. They way he carries on, we would all be pleased to be rid of him. Show him the other game. Don't just say that the doers aren't doing it right. Show him someone else who is doing it right. Show us what they are doing. Be specific.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:
On 1/2/2018 at 11:14 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The Watchtower of January 19th is incredibly important in that regard ... for people of discernment.

This is wt talk at its finest. It poses the reader in the position of either you agree with the wt or you have no discernment. 

Shiwiii:

You got what I said completely backwards ... The people who have discernment are NOT the authors of the article .... It will be  the ones who read, and discern what is being said  "between the lines".

I am not one to believe ANYONE at face value, ... and I do recognize self-agrandisement fluffery when I see it.

I do not believe Jehovah's Witnesses are "The Only Game in Town", because the WT says so ... I believe it through process of elimination.

They (and 'we") ARE really the "Only Game in Town"

Deeply flawed ... arrogant... and clueless to the point of embarrassment about reality where the rubber meets the road ... naive to the point of absurdity ..... but the CORE Truths are available nowhere else .... at least since Sir Isaac Newton died about 400 years ago.

Jehovah is blessing his people... not BECAUSE of it's Leadership ... but in spite of it.

The article we will be studying this weekend is heavily nuanced in RESPONSE to the "elves getting uppity", and recognizing that Jehovah's Chariot, and the Circus Clown Car are not the same.... still not perfect... but getting better due to powerful OUTSIDE forces.

There is the expression ... "You do not fight a war with the Army you WANT .... you fight a war with the Army you HAVE."

And if you are a fan of the book "The Peter Principle", you know that in any society, Leadership gets elevated to the point it either becomes incompetent, or irrelevant.

Even Jesus and his parents had to flee to Egypt for awhile, during the "Crazy Years".

This is why people with experience, and discernment will recognize what is really going on in that WT article, as well as what is ostensibly being said.

 

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10 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Who is the other game in town? Show me. Tell me how you know. Tell me what they have to show for themselves.

JTR will doubtless follow you and he'll make a lot less trouble here. Seriously. They way he carries on, we would all be pleased to be rid of him. Show him the other game. Don't just say that the doers aren't doing it right. Show him someone else who is doing it right. Show us what they are doing. Be specific.

Why be so quick to align with a group? Is it that group mentality that makes it impossible for many to just simply come to Jesus? 

Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. The org is not the "truth" nor the way and they claim life exclusively to whom they deem worthy, placing themselves in the seat of Jesus. Why is there a need for wt mags and awake mags when the Bible is sufficient? It has been for centuries, until a group decided it wasn't enough and put people in boxes and made hoops for them to jump through. 

 

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3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You got what I said completely backwards ... The people who have discernment are NOT the authors of the article .... they are the ones who read "between the lines".

for that then I apologize. It IS wt speak though and you have to admit that. 

 

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do not believe Jehovah's Witnesses are "The Only Game in Town", because the WT says so ... I believe it through process of elimination.

How can this be demonstrated beyond "I just know"?  And please read my answer to Tom as it applies here too.

 

5 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Jehovah is blessing his people... not BECAUSE of it's Leadership ... but in spite of it.

Is He blessing by means of exposure to the practices and cover ups of the abuse rampant throughout the org? It certainly appears that way in these last 4 years. 

 

7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but getting better due to powerful OUTSIDE forces.

what are these outside forces? news media and governments holding the flashlight on them to force the changes that should have happened long ago? 

 

9 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This is why people with experience, and discernment will recognize what is really going on in that WT article, as well as what is ostensibly being said.

point being is why should such an article (magazine) be the focus instead of the Bible itself and the practices written within it?  

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4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

No one has ever accused me of being "Brother Watchtower".

But isn't that, when it all boils down to it, you are? 

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12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:
22 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You got what I said completely backwards ... The people who have discernment are NOT the authors of the article .... they are the ones who read "between the lines".

for that then I apologize. It IS wt speak though and you have to admit that. 

YES... the term I use is "Pubspeak", or "Publications Speak", for Orwellian reasons.

12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:
22 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do not believe Jehovah's Witnesses are "The Only Game in Town", because the WT says so ... I believe it through process of elimination.

How can this be demonstrated beyond "I just know"?  And please read my answer to Tom as it applies here too.

Experience, and insight.  My carefully considered and heavily educated personal opinion, rationally derived.

12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:
22 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This is why people with experience, and discernment will recognize what is really going on in that WT article, as well as what is ostensibly being said.

point being is why should such an article (magazine) be the focus instead of the Bible itself and the practices written within it?  

Job security for old men and their personal "empires".  They have billions of dollars to "play with" ... and could not live on $256 a week Unemployment compensation .... and they know it.

 

12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:
22 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but getting better due to powerful OUTSIDE forces.

what are these outside forces? news media and governments holding the flashlight on them to force the changes that should have happened long ago? 

YES

Acknowledgment of REALITY is why I have never been accused of being "Brother Watchtower" ... I keep my various fantasies in separate mental boxes with high walls.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

YES... the term I use is "Pubspeak", or "Publications Speak", for Orwellian reasons.

I agree, but I think many don't even realize the speech coming out of their mouth isn't their own. 

5 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Experience, and insight.  My carefully considered and heavily educated personal opinion, rationally derived.

As it should be. All should have that freedom to examine and choose without fear. 

 

7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Job security for old men and their personal "empires".  They have billions of dollars to "play with" ... and could not live on $256 a week Unemployment compensation .... and they know it.

and this is acceptable? This is the best game in town? If that is true, then there is no game  It's all a shell game made by man that cannot be won. By the admittance of those "outside influences" making the changes that should have been, are you not then acknowledging that the org has not been guided by God? 

 

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I look at the results at the bottom, not the juggling act at the top.

It's not a perfect system ... neither is the United States Marines ... but if your sense of rightousness and duty compels you to be either a Theocrat, or a Marine .... you have to put up with the error ... or you have no "Army" ... at all.

I have been chewed up and spit out by the clueless,  like many people.

And more than most, because I really push the envelope, constantly.  Always have.

In the "Fog of War", sometimes you get " killed "  by your own people ...

It's called "Friendly Fire" on the battlefield.

IN the REAL world ... STUFF HAPPENS.

Everyone "reaching out" for privileges of authority rise until they reach their own levels of incompetence.

This is not proprietary to Jehovah's Witnesses .

It is part of being human.

ALL HUMANS

 

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51 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Why be so quick to align with a group? Is it that group mentality that makes it impossible for many to just simply come to Jesus? 

What are the practical manifestations of people 'coming to Jesus?' 

Why do some who have come to Jesus love Trump? Why do some who have come to Jesus love Hillary, and hate Trump?

Perhaps you could convince @AlanF he should come to Jesus.

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20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Why do some who have come to Jesus love Trump? Why do some who have come to Jesus love Hillary, and hate Trump?

How would I know? The opportunity for you to research is there if you really want to know. 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

How would I know?

You never did tell the practical benefits of people "coming to Jesus." What are they? Particularly when some will side with Trump and some with Hillary.

Thus far you have only criticized the doers.

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1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You never did tell the practical benefits of people "coming to Jesus." What are they? Particularly when some will side with Trump and some with Hillary.

Thus far you have only criticized the doers.

Have you read the Bible? I mean really? The benefits are clearly spelled out for all to see. You should try it sometime, without the forced interpretation the wt gives. 

I understand what you are doing here and I'm not playing your game Tom. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I understand what you are doing here and I'm not playing your game Tom. 

My "game" is asking you a question. Lord knows you ask enough:

You never did tell the practical benefits of people "coming to Jesus." What are they? Particularly when some will side with Trump and some with Hillary?

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On 1/12/2018 at 5:26 PM, Shiwiii said:

I understand what you are doing here and I'm not playing your game Tom

Here Shiwiii has revealed the reason that people become Jehovah's Witnesses. 

Almost to the person, Witnesses will say they had questions - many questions - hard-hitting questions, some of them. Nobody took offense at them. Instead, it was shown how the scriptures answered their questions. 

So why does he scream foul when I ask him a simple one? There is nothing sinister about the question. It is a question most non-religious people would ask. He comes here to incessantly criticize the doers, insisting that "coming to Jesus" solves everything. So:

On 1/12/2018 at 6:43 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

You never did tell the practical benefits of people "coming to Jesus." What are they? Particularly when some will side with Trump and some with Hillary?

It is not a trap, Shiwiii. It is a simple question. Why do you not answer it?

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Jehovahs witness business owners may do better with Trumps tax plan, so they may be more willing to vote from trump because he's helping them make more money to give to the governing body. Jesus may benefit from that as well as He is just a bystander on the jw road.

 

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1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

Jehovahs witness business owners may do better with Trumps tax plan, so they may be more willing to vote from trump because he's helping them make more money to give to the governing body. Jesus may benefit from that as well as He is just a bystander on the jw road.


I very seldom... perhaps once a year, "downvote" someone, but the logic of THAT approaches true insanity.

 

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On 1/14/2018 at 4:29 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Here Shiwiii has revealed the reason that people become Jehovah's Witnesses. 

Almost to the person, Witnesses will say they had questions - many questions - hard-hitting questions, some of them. Nobody took offense at them. Instead, it was shown how the scriptures answered their questions. 

So why does he scream foul when I ask him a simple one? There is nothing sinister about the question. It is a question most non-religious people would ask. He comes here to incessantly criticize the doers, insisting that "coming to Jesus" solves everything. So:

It is not a trap, Shiwiii. It is a simple question. Why do you not answer it?

The ridiculousness of attaching political people into the question is where you have gone astray. That is the side portion of your question which becomes your gig, your laugh. You see if you were actually serious none of that would have found its way into your agenda. 

Now to answer you seriously:

What are the benefits of Coming to Jesus?

Your sins are forgiven, the moment you accept Jesus into your heart and ask Him to forgive you. Done deal. Matt. 9:2 is a great example. By the man's faith, Jesus forgave him. 

His burden is light, why? Because He takes that pressure away from you. He give your rest (Matt 11:25-30) There is no fear of losing anything, privileges, friends, family, you don't lose but rather gain. You gain the peace and joy of being a child of God (Romans 8:15-17, 1 John 5:1). There is no obligation  to do anything, except the works of God. What are those works? John 6:29 "... believe in the one who He sent" (Jesus). 

You will be led by the Holy Spirit. (Luke 12:12) This is much like having a friend guide you through life and warning you about the dangers of your decisions. The Spirit of God dwells within you to direct you. (Romans 8:11)

Jesus does not try and trap you or trick you, it is a freedom to follow Him. It is also very easy to leave Him if you'd like. He does not threaten you to keep you under submission, He does not announce to others that you have left. He simply continues and He knows who will and who won't follow Him, so there is no surprise. He knows and Romans 8:28 tells us what the plan for those who do is, all things will work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. 

We are given eternal life. When is this given? Now. John 6:40. We have the knowledge and comfort in knowing that right now we can know for certain that we have eternal life with Jesus. This is not a maybe "if you do enough" or "if you're nice enough" it is a given. 1 John 5:11&12. 

Jesus is the mediator between the Father and humans. Jesus came in human form so that we can relate to Him and He can be our mediator. He is our spokesperson when we fail (1 John 2:1&2). The Bible tells us that there is NO other mediator, not a group of men, not a religion, not the Pope nor the octo-popes.  Jesus is our personal mediator. 

He tells us that He is the only way. (John 14:6, Hebrews 7:25) There is no other way to God, but through Jesus, so one MUST come to Jesus in order to be right with God. He must become the narrow gate in which we must pass (Matt 7:13). 

I think this is enough to answer your question. While there is much more, I really don't think you are interested in the answer, just a sort of game to see if I would jump through your hoops. Well I did, but it wasn't for just you. 

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57 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

think this is enough to answer your question. While there is much more, I really don't think you are interested in the answer, just a sort of game to see if I would jump through your hoops. Well I did, but it wasn't for just you. 

I agree with MOST of what you said .... but you "got me" at the last line.

Bravo!

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I think this is enough to answer your question.

This is all very good as far as it goes. However it is all selfish if it stops there. It is all ME ME ME - "what do I get out of it."

As it turns out, it is not about us. It is about the sanctification of God's name. We benefit as that sanctification takes place. But we are not the centerpiece of God's attention.  

Moreover, by refusing to get "practical," one easily sees how your brand of Christian becomes part and parcel and cause of what makes life for many today a "hell on earth."

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

The ridiculousness of attaching political people into the question is where you have gone astray.

Yes, it is good to sidestep that bit of "ridiculousness." Paper it over with a "God works in mysterious ways" as your brand of Christian slaughters one another and other populations in war! No wonder people go atheist!

Jehovah's Witnesses embrace all of what you say, as a part of the truth. But they also know that there are yet greater principles at play and they know the application of Bible principles now brings major benefits. It is not enough to wait for 'heaven' to make us all nice. We can learn to be nice now. A good place to start is to not dive into the divisiveness of this world's politics.

 

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14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is all very good as far as it goes. However it is all selfish if it stops there. It is all ME ME ME - "what do I get out of it.

And this was your actual question! Was it not? You asked what does one benefit from coming to Jesus, and NOW you want to complain about the answer being about what does one gain? Do you even realize what you write sometimes? Have you been checked for multiple personalities? 

 

16 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

as your brand of Christian slaughters one another and other populations in war!

ignorant claims as you do not know my "brand"

 

16 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is not enough to wait for 'heaven' to make us all nice. We can learn to be nice now.

exactly, but try telling that the the thousands who were molested by members of your "brand" only to have their abusers covered up and protected. That doesn't exactly spell learning to be nice now does it? 

What does tight pants have to do with Bible principals? Tony Morris seems to think it is of importance and biblical

Where in the Bible does blood fractions come into play? 

Where in the Bible does immunizations get banned and then allowed? 

Why can't people make their minds up on if a birthday is ok or not? Why does it have to be a threat to banish a person if they participate in Christmas? 

Why is there so much controlling going on in your "brand" ?  Was Jesus that controlling? I think not  

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24 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Have you been checked for multiple personalities? 

Aye - an excellent question, Shiwiii! I'm with ye! Make TTH walk the plank! Such a scurrilous liar I have never seen!

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40 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

but try telling that the the thousands who were molested by members of your "brand" only to have their abusers covered up and protected.

It is true that this one has in some ways blown up in our faces. (Let us leave unchallenged, for the moment, your 'thousands.') In a way it is an byproduct of doing what the Bible tells Christians to do: keep the congregation clean. Reports of wrongdoing (of all types) are looked into with a view of applying discipline to the proper degree and, in the case of pedophiles, ensuring that one cannot slip out of one congregation and into another undetected - as they can in any other church.

The "practical" solution, though it means shortchanging the God who expects a clean people, is to do what most do: Preach to them on Sunday and let that be the end of it. If they apply it, they apply it. If they don't, they don't. 

That way when a pervert is nabbed, they are never associated with any particular religion (unless they are clergy), since the church's policy, like that of Sergeant Shultz, is "I know notttthhhhhiiiiiiggggggggggggg!"

I'll take Jehovah's Witnesses any day, even IF their efforts to keep their congregations clean has resulted in some legal trouble. 

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22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Let us leave unchallenged, for the moment, your 'thousands.'

I don't think it does much good to challenge it. There are nearly 120,000 congregations in the world. The first time I ever heard of a "pedophile database" was not when I was at Bethel, but near the end of the  following decade, around 1998. A couple years later, when ex-JWs were beginning to make a big deal out of it, my uncle (circuit overseer) and I called a friend in the Service Department to clear up what we should say if asked about it directly. He said that although it sounds high, it averaged out to "just a little less" than one person in every congregation, but that these were mostly USA/North America figures, and he couldn't say how this might compare to the rest of the world. Also, anecdotally at least, a large number of them had been disfellowshipped and were showing no interest in coming back.

We have about 120,000 congregations in the world, and I don't think we catch all the child abusers. Perhaps some want to become JWs to help overcome their problem. Based on the impression I got in 1998, that might translate to somewhere on the order of 50,000 abusers from the 80's through 2000. And perhaps another 100,000 from 2000 through 2017/8. This sounds way too high, 150,000 in aggregate, but is still less than one every two decades, per congregation. I don't believe it's even half that, but wouldn't be surprised if an up-to-date worldwide database contained a number like 1% of current publishers.

1% of 8 million is 80,000. Most of these would no longer be associated with a congregation anyway. But the other thing is that a high number of child abusers abuse more than one child, and continue to find persons to abuse all their life.

I recently found out that the brother who married my sister, and who was a physical abuser (over which my sister left him to remarry) was a victim of something like this when he was younger. I think we'll find out that it is much more common than people have let on. My sister was instructed not to inform the hospital workers or police under threat of disciplinary action, losing her pioneer "status" and TMS privileges. Her husband, a ministerial servant, was apparently barely talked to, and continued to advance to a position as elder. The thing is, I don't think anyone outside our own family and a couple of elders every really knew about this. My parents are of the sort that believe it shames the family to admit that my sister married such a man, and would rather only talk about his success as an elder. (I was at Bethel when this was going on.) So how much do we know about our own congregations unless we are on the judicial committee, or it blows up into the newspapers, or an Australian Royal Commission?

Another person in our congregation was an elderly special pioneer who started to get in trouble for sleazy behavior with younger sisters, mostly pioneer sisters, who were between 18 and 24 or so. Not "child abuse" and no crime of any kind, but also an issue of not disciplining him because he would lose his special pioneer stipend, and his son already had a very high position at Bethel. My father was one of the elders who talked to him, and I was a "second witness" to corroborate one of the sister's stories. I had evidently caught him improperly touching/groping on only one of many occasions.

I mention this because it was easy for me to think that one abuser per congregation is not that unlikely. Therefore 1,000s of victims who suffered from "cover-up" is not that unlikely.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In a way it is an byproduct of doing what the Bible tells Christians to do: keep the congregation clean. Reports of wrongdoing (of all types) are looked into with a view of applying discipline to the proper degree and, in the case of pedophiles, ensuring that one cannot slip out of one congregation and into another undetected - as they can in any other church.

So what you mean is that by knowing that Gonzalo Campo molested kids and making him an elder and putting him with other kids, is just a byproduct of doing God will?

Also, keeping him in the cong keeps him from slipping out and into another one? 

 

    Hello guest!

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That way when a pervert is nabbed, they are never associated with any particular religion (unless they are clergy), since the church's policy, like that of Sergeant Shultz, is "I know notttthhhhhiiiiiiggggggggggggg!"

Isn't this a job for the police? Why is it discouraged to report? Oh and don't give me that BS about "we don't discourage" yes they do. Those "elders" are not even qualified to hold a conversation about psychology let alone actually try and do anything about abuse. 

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I'll take Jehovah's Witnesses any day, even IF their efforts to keep their congregations clean has resulted in some legal trouble. 

 Keep drinking that glass of water with the drop of poison in it. 

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4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think we catch all the child abusers.

you don't even have to catch them all, just try not putting the ones who admit it with kids. Also on top of that, how about reporting these accusation to the police who are trained to handle these situations? 

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My parents are of the sort that believe it shames the family to admit that my sister married such a man

I think that has typically been the case of persons anywhere - JW or not, religious or atheist. Historically, people have not been in a hurry to air their dirty laundry. Reality TV has changed much of that. Probably also a factor is that more and more families are absolute train wrecks and people are just acclimating to it. 

The very reason there is a phrase called "skeletons in the closet" is that persons once succeeded in keeping them there. These days people have become accustomed to them stampeding like cattle through Dodge City.  Is it George Bernard Shaw who said: "if you cannot get rid of the skeletons in your closet, see if you can make them dance"?

I think I would not challenge that Witnesses have had a greater adjustment than many in learning to let those skeletons roam, since their reputation is that of applying Bible morality and they are reluctant to see that reputation tarnished. But, as you say, if there were one per congregation per two-decade period (your figures - not mine) that would add up.

What will happen will happen. It is the classic example of getting slammed for doing the right thing - investigating abusers for punishment and protection of other congregations. Have mistakes been made? I wouldn't doubt it. @Shiwiii is wetting himself pointing to one of them. (to what degree it is a mistake, or if it is a mistake at all, I do not know. Suffice it to say, however, that we got stuck with a real rotter, who caused a lot of harm)

Could Shiwiii do it better? THAT is an entirely different question. And it is one impossible to answer because, to my knowledge, no one else has ever tried. Everyone else has a policy, usually through neglect, but perhaps also by design, of knowing as little about their congregants as possible. That way, you can't get left holding the bag if anyone is outed. Every time you turn around, a pedophile is outed. Never do we hear of his religious affiliation. It is our own fault for attempting to keep a morally clean congregation - a "people for his name." 

Pedophiles are as common as hens' feathers - we have certainly learned that. It is even more so when the statute of limitations is forever. Anthony Morris said it best: we were all a little naive when pedophilia burst upon the scene. 

 

 

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