Jump to content
The World News Media

Watchtower and the Great Crowd Doctrine


Recommended Posts

  • Member

 The current understanding being promoted by the "Watchtower" is that the "Great Crowd" of (Rev 7:9-14) is the "earthly" group of redeemed mankind, which make it through the Great Tribulation .

However, is there something here that we have missed?  Or have we been deliberately misled? After all who is misleading the entire inhabited earth? (Rev 12:9
Jesus said if possible even the chosen ones. (Mt 24:24) (Mark 13:22
Jesus said the truth will set you free. (John 8:32)  We need to know what is true and what is not.  It is of utmost importance. 

The bible says “Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar” (Romans 3:4)

Jesus and his Father would not want us to believe a lie. Although many feel we should wait on God to rid us of lies (as if our believing them, are His fault), God Himself does not ask us to wallow in the untrue doctrines of men.    
However, he does not remove our free will. He allows leaders who choose to mislead others, as well as followers who choose to be mislead. 

The Father is a God of Truth.   (John 17:17)    Jesus never taught that it is finer to surrender loyalty to the truth, in favor of keeping unity and peace at all cost with those who prefer to cling to errors and traditions.  He clung to God's word, defying the authority of his time even at the cost of his life.

Should we be loyal to, in harmony with, and in subjection to any religious leaders, at the cost of Truth? 

 An anointed one recently showed me that the Great Crowd described in Revelation (Rev.7:9) may actually be the “Remnant” of sealed anointed ones who make it through the Great Tribulation.  
I put a link "Who is the Great Crowd"  written by this anointed one.  

(It is a more in-depth article) 
The link is located later in my article. 
 Also... this is not the first time that (Revelation 7:9) came under scrutiny.  
At the end of this article please see what happened in 1980.

        Some misconceptions are revealed over time, for instance in 1925 there was a public talk entitled “Millions now living will Never Die”.  That was later changed to “May” never die for obvious reasons.  If that talk were to be given today it would be:

 “ Millions then  living… are now dead ”.      Truth be told.

Other strongly entrenched things may need a deeper investigation in the scriptures (Hebrews 4:12)
This may be the case with who really is the Great Crowd.  (Re 7:9)

The New World Translation at (Revelation 7:9) reads like this:  “After these things I saw, and, look! A great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes…”

We are told that these ones are the earthly class who are not anointed, because no man can number them, and because the Watchtower says that the number of anointed ones totals 144,000. ..A definite number.  But is this enough of an explanation? Should there be more scriptural evidence?

Are there any scriptures describing the anointed that fits in with the description listed in (Revelation 7:9)? 

Yes there are.

However, before we take a look at those scriptures, can any man (or woman) answer this question?

How many persons make up the “remnant” of sealed anointed ones, during the last days?  (Those sealed anointed ones who come out of the Great Tribulation)

Is any man able to number that?     The “remnant” is by definition the “left-over” ones, or the“remaining ones” of her seed (Rev 12:17).  How many make up the remnant??? 

So it can be said that “no man is able to number” the size of the remnant.  It could be a great crowd.

Let’s look at those scriptures now:

  (Revelation 19:146 7 8)  Here in heaven, twice it is said of those in heaven... a… “Voice of agreat crowd  ” was heard.
 (New World Translation)

  (Revelation 5:910)  “…you bought persons out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (NWT)...  (again, referring to the 144,000).

  (Revelation 3:45) speaks of the 144,000 anointed ones having “white outer garments” “white ones.”   At (Revelation 19:14) the armies are clothed in white, clean, fine linen. (NWT) 
Revelation 17:14 shows that the army riding with Jesus are his chosen faithful ones:
New Living Translation

Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him."

(Re 19:8)…The bride of the lamb is said to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen…(again speaking of the 144,000 anointed ones).

Other scriptures of interest concerning clean white garments, or robes are 
(Mark 16:5Luke 9:2924:4;  John 20:12Acts 1:10)

But what about the sealed anointed being dressed in ...
“white robes”... can we be more specific?

Why yes.  In his ongoing vision, just before John sees this great crowd in... 
(Re 7:9dressed in “white robes” he saw the following:

 (Revelation 6:910,) (Re 6:11)… “And a white “robe” was given to each of them.

So there it is…the description fits like a glove. 

 A great crowd… that no man is able to number,

Out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,

Standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes.

How can the Great Crowd be anointed ones, despite the fact that we can not "number" them?
If 144,000 is the total number of the anointed, and the anointed that come through the Great Tribulation can not be numbered; it is also possible that the Great Crowd is PART of the total number. How big is that part? Apparently, no one can say.
It is like the Great Crowd is a piece of a whole pie. How big is the slice? No one can say.


Here is some supporting research done by the group that had scrutinized the doctrine about the Great Crowd earlier back in 1980.

Revelation 7:9 came under scrutiny  Back in 1980.    Quite a few of our brothers, highly respected members of our Watchtower Headquarters in Brooklyn N.Y. were disfellowshipped on charges of “Apostasy”.  Even a member of the Governing Body was forcibly removed and disfellowshipped.  The Governing Body would not re-consider the “doctrine” even though the scruitiny is based on solid evidence from the Holy Scriptures.

Here is some of their research concerning the Greek words used in Revelation as it refers to the location of the “Great Crowd”:
Naos: Divine Habitation, inner temple sanctuary…the Most Holy.

Naos refers to the inner sanctuary of the temple complex which included the Holy and Holy of Holies (or Most Holy).

Hieron is the Greek word for the entire temple complex with all its sub-structures and courts.

The distinction between these two terms is well defined in the Watchtower of August 15, 1960. Explaining the second chapter of John (which describes the presence of the money changers and all the animals which were being sold in the temple), page 493, paragraph two of the article entitled "The Temple of the Apostles' Time" says:

What kind of building could this be that had room for all this traffic? The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center. In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron.

It was from the courts of the outer temple (hieron--not naos) that Jesus drove the money changers. (See Matt. 21:12Mark 11:15Luke 19:45 and John 2:1415 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.)

It was the entire temple (hieron--not naos) that was destroyed as a judgment from God. (SeeMatt. 24:1,2Mark 13:1-3 and Luke 21:5,6 in the Kingdom Interlinear.)

The earthly courtyard is located "outside of  the temple [sanctuary] (naos)" while the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:15 is described as being inside the temple sanctuary or naos

It is evident that throughout the book of Revelation the term naos is used repeatedly to refer exclusively to the innermost part of the temple, the heavenly sanctuary in its figurative application

Revelation 11:2 says in the New World Translation:

But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary] (naos), cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations ["Gentiles"--AV, NEB, Moffat], and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Another point of importance is the fact that, at Revelation 7:915, the "great crowd" is said to be"before the throne" of God.

As the Society's publications have pointed out, the Greek word translated "before" in this text isenopion and it literally means "in [the] sight [of]." (For example on page 123 of the book, Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand [1988])

This Greek word is used repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation to locate objects and persons "before" or "in the sight of" God in heaven.

Looking up the following verses in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scripturesmakes this clear:

Revelation 1:4


"Seven spirits that are before (enopionhis [God's] throne"

Revelation 4:5


"Seven lamps of fire burning before (enopion) the throne [of God]"

Revelation 4:6


"And before (enopionthe throne [of God] there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal."

Revelation 4:10


"The twenty-four elders fall down before (enopion) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before (enopionthe throne"

Revelation 7:9


"A great crowd, ... standing before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion)the Lamb"

Revelation 7:11


"And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before (enopion) the throne and worshiped God"

Revelation 7:15


"That is why they [the great crowd] are before (enopionthe throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service"

Revelation 8:3


"And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that wasbefore (enopionthe throne."

Revelation 9:13


"And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before (enopion) God."

Revelation 11:16


"And the twenty-four elders who were seated before (enopionGod"

Revelation 14:3


"And they [the 144,000] are singing as if a new song before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion) the four living creatures and the elders"


Since these other things are considered to be “in heaven”, it stands to reason that the “Great Crowd” can also be “In heaven” and therefore could very well be the anointed invited ones and not the earthly class of humans

This coupled with the scriptural evidence cited above in my article should be sufficient for any reasonable person to see that it is possible that the Great Crowd of (Revelation 7:9can very well be the remnant of anointed ones who make it through the Great Tribulation in the last days.

Obadiah Doxsey 




Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Views 570
  • Replies 1
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The current understanding being promoted by the "Watchtower" is that the "Great Crowd" of (Rev 7:9-14) is the "earthly" group of redeemed mankind, which make it through the Great Tribulation . Ho

I have a hard time with most of this because it assumes things about the 144k that just isn't in the Bible. 

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Popular Contributors

  • Topics

  • Posts

  • Members

  • Recent Status Updates

    • AudreyAnnaNana

      Status Update, just for fun...if anyone is bored and wants something to read, here are some communications that show one example of how a disfellowshipping works. The emails are not posted in order, you have to look at the dates to figure out the order it happened in.😊



      · 1 reply
    • AudreyAnnaNana

      What an exciting evening! (Sorry if it rambles...)
      I was scared because I had to go into the "shark tank." Jehovah and Jesus went with me, and they totally rocked it!😆
      The COBE elder that kicked me out of the assembly a couple of weeks ago was so angry tonight! (He's kinda like Haman.)
      My husband is PIMI but he only attends about half the meetings. He calls me an apostate and gets mad if I say anything that isn't what the GB says. He didn't go to meeting tonight. I don't let my kids go to the KH unless I go, so the kids and I usually watch the meetings online. I didn't know if they would let me and the kids into the KH. (Since they just evicted us from the assembly a couple weeks ago at lunch because I talked to people and looked like I was happy and joyful.) As we were approaching the door of the KH tonight, the doorman saw me and let it slam shut and through the window I could see him, possibly looking for permission from an elder to see if I was "banned" or not. I knocked, and the visiting CO#2 cut in front of the doorman, opened up to let me in, escorting me right past the doorman! ("Jehovah Factor"😄)
      (There were two COs because I guess one was getting a "shepherding visit week" from the other one...)
      The CO#2 was awesome, a really kind gentleman who acted like a shepherd. CO#1 didn't recognize me at first because during his last visit I didn't attend because I thought the trespassing ban was still in place (although it had been removed but the COBE conveniently forgot to tell me. I found out when I went to his house just before the Memorial to ask, since they never respond to any messages I send either by email or letter.)
      (Incidentally, I wrote in an earlier Status Update about my experiences running into the CO#1 at the assembly a couple of weeks ago...)
      As soon as we got in the KH, the regular Pharisee-types were shocked and dismayed and frowned because my presence is worse than if a contagious yowling leper came in. However, the CO#1 started asking my kids' names, and the elder standing there conveniently forgot how to talk so the CO went through the greetings and asked me my name and I chatted with him for a moment. He figured out who I was after a bit and I think he was a little shocked. (I have written to him plenty about the stuff going on in the congregation - he never replies.)
      So, we walked toward the auditorium and put our stuff down in the middle of the second row from the front. My kids wanted to see their friends, and I got up to walk around a little too. When I passed by CO#2, he stopped me and kindly asked me my name. (The COBE and his wife were standing right next to him.) I answered the COs questions, and we chatted and he asked where else I was from and if I was doing hospitality at all during the week. I told him I came to support the CO visit, and that I would keep him in my prayers. He was so nice. I asked him for a hug, and he gave me a hug. All this time, the COBE and his wife had steam coming out of their ears almost, and finally the COBE grabbed the CO and said "Excuse me! She's been disfellowshipped for a year!" And the CO thought he was joking! So he laughed and said something like "oh, yeah, that's funny" and then the COBE said, "No, really!" And I said, "He is a liar." Because the COBE is a liar. He bears false witness about all kinds of things. And I walked to my seat.
      The meeting started shortly after. The kids and I sang heartily so everyone could hear our joy and affection for Jehovah. The hypocritical COBE was called up to pray. I did not bow my head. I kept my eyes open. That man is a snake. I refuse to say "Amen" to anything he has to say.
      During the Bible gems my kids got to comment. I put my hand up several times too, and everybody nearly had a heart attack. (Is there a rule that says a "disfellowshipped" person can't raise their hand?) Of course, they didn't call on me.
      The second song was a nice loud march. We've always been told to sing loud. I am obedient to that good counsel.
      The CO#1s talk started off pleasant enough. Until he mentioned the "recent apostasy and divisions" the congregation has had to deal with (he means me, since I sent emails to the "friends" to tell them the sketchy things the elders were doing.) Wasn't that nice of him to mention me in the talk! My kids got irritated with his smack talk, but Jehovah got us through it. I think he used maybe three or four scriptures, two of them misapplied. Most of the talk was about worshipping the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" and how much they "have done for us".🤪
      I went because I love Jehovah and I knew He wanted me to go to at least one of the CO visit days, to show my support to the "friends" that I know this is the organization Jehovah is going to clean and that I haven't left of my own accord. (They know about all the details of the sketchy stuff the fake elders did because I informed them of every sketchy thing the elders did to my kids and me.) Part of why I went was to show love for the congregation. Very soon they are going to be in complete shock. I love those people, even though they are all mostly brainwashed at present. They will have a rude awakening soon enough because the GB and the Bethels will be gone when the UN attacks and the congregations are going to need to be comforted. 
      A nice brother said the closing prayers, so I said "Amen" to that one nice and clear. (The poor brothers on the platform were right in front me, there was no one sitting in the row in front of us.) After the meeting, my kids chatted for a little bit with friends and then we were going to leave. I said "hi" to a few people (that really irritates the COBE, that's not why I do it, I do it because Jehovah said to encourage the brothers and we can't if we don't talk to them...) 
      When we were leaving, CO#1 pulled my son aside to talk to him for a minute. The CO wanted me to go away, but I stayed right there, because I think it's rude to cause divisions in a family like what he was doing. The CO attempted to talk to my son about homeschooling right in front of me as if I didn't exist. I wasn't having any of it. I let him do his thing for a minute, and then I told him he was causing divisions, and if he didn't respect Jehovah's arrangement for family (like not talking to the mom who is part of the family) that he wasn't welcome to talk to my son. The COs not good association. Then we walked away.
      My daughter was in the library with her friend and her friends parents and two aunts (one is the wife of an elder.) As soon as I walked in - hush! Everybody stopped talking. I walked by them and told my daughter's friend I loved her and gave her a hug (I used to take her out in service together with my kids). I looked at the people in the room and said "I love you, even though I know you hate me, except for you...I know you love me" to one sister who I know is kind and real. Then we left and on the way out gave the other doorman who is like a grandfather a big hug and he said goodbye and kept waving as we drove off.
      What an evening! (Thank you for any positive thoughts directed my way! Jehovah is the Hearer of Prayer, and He does things with style!)
      "You well know that Jehovah your God is the true God, the faithful God, keeping his covenant and loyal love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.  But those who hate him he will repay to their face with destruction. He will not be slow to deal with those who hate him; he will repay them to their face." (Deuteronomy 7:9,10)

      · 1 reply
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
    • Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
    • Most Online

    Newest Member
    Fausto Hoover
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.