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Did Jesus really say He was God?

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That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

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15 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

NEVER,  NEVER  HE  SAID  THAT  IN  THE  BIBLE. -  We   have  SO  many  examples,  Jesus  is  the  SON  of  God,  but  never  the  ALMIGHTY  GOD !

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2 hours ago, Anke Adolphi said:

NEVER,  NEVER  HE  SAID  THAT  IN  THE  BIBLE. -  We   have  SO  many  examples,  Jesus  is  the  SON  of  God,  but  never  the  ALMIGHTY  GOD !

Oh,ABSOLUTELY He DID and i provided a wealth of information to PROVE it.

 

yes, Jesus is the Son of God, but also Jehovah God.

 

Your problem is that you have been brainwashed that whenever you hear or see the word "Jehovah" ( Which NEVER appears in the NT ), you automatically assign that name to God the FATHER.

 

ProofGBnotprophets.jpg

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Jesus  maybe  was  another  kind  of  God....  but  NOT  the  Creator  of  all  alone  and  not  making  himself,  haha,  do  you  believe  that ?  Jesus  was  the  first  one  the  Almighty  God  created,  all  other  things  they  created  together,  yes. -  Jesus  was  called  with  some  different  names,  also  God...  But  he  never  wanted  be  the  Almighty  God,  he  always  wanted  calling  by  the  son  of  God.

"My  father  is  greater  than  me"....  /  he  prayed  to  his  father !  When  Jesus  were  God,  he  never  had  to  pray...  When  Jesus  was  on  Earth  -  his  father  was  in  Heaven.  HE  gave  Jesus  into  Maria...  only  ONE  could  do  that  with  Jesus !  Jesus  was  praying  SO  strong  to  his  father,  that  his  sweat  became  to  blood...

I  don't  have  any  problem  with  brainwashing...  to  some  things,  I've  my  own  opinion !  Not  nice,  you  wrote  that  ;-(   I  try  doing  nothings  automatically.  My  brain  is  not  manipulable.  ---   Seems,  that  theme  is  one  of  your  big  hobbies ?  ;o)   God  was  giving  himself  a  special  name !  Look  into  the  Bible  and  tell  me,  how  often  he  did....  I'm  sure  you  know  that !

Gnite  from  Germany.....

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1 hour ago, Anke Adolphi said:

Jesus  maybe  was  another  kind  of  God....  but  NOT  the  Creator  of  all  alone  and  not  making  himself,  haha,  do  you  believe  that ?  Jesus  was  the  first  one  the  Almighty  God  created,  all  other  things  they  created  together,  yes. -  Jesus  was  called  with  some  different  names,  also  God...  But  he  never  wanted  be  the  Almighty  God,  he  always  wanted  calling  by  the  son  of  God.

"My  father  is  greater  than  me"....  /  he  prayed  to  his  father !  When  Jesus  were  God,  he  never  had  to  pray...  When  Jesus  was  on  Earth  -  his  father  was  in  Heaven.  HE  gave  Jesus  into  Maria...  only  ONE  could  do  that  with  Jesus !  Jesus  was  praying  SO  strong  to  his  father,  that  his  sweat  became  to  blood...

I  don't  have  any  problem  with  brainwashing...  to  some  things,  I've  my  own  opinion !  Not  nice,  you  wrote  that  ;-(   I  try  doing  nothings  automatically.  My  brain  is  not  manipulable.  ---   Seems,  that  theme  is  one  of  your  big  hobbies ?  ;o)   God  was  giving  himself  a  special  name !  Look  into  the  Bible  and  tell  me,  how  often  he  did....  I'm  sure  you  know  that !

Gnite  from  Germany.....

Guten tag.

 

No, Jesus is NOT "another  kind  of  God" as there is only ONE God, Jehovah.

"but  NOT  the  Creator  of  all  alone "

 

" For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: "

""My  father  is  greater  than  me"....  /  he  prayed  to  his  father ! "

 

yes, Jesus in His HUMAN FORM prayed to God the father. Would you expect Jesus to be an atheist?

 

" When  Jesus  were  God"

 

Jesus has always been God.

 

" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

 

" Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. "

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Exact, there is only ONE God, Jehovah, you say it !  Jesus was never an atheist, thats ludicrous ! Of course, Jesus was there before Abraham... bec. he was living alone with his father for 'trilliards'  of years in Heaven - nobody knows how long, but very very long. Jehovah, his father, made Jesus, his first created person, called his firstborn son Jesus and after, all other things were coming into existence. First the universe, with myriards of angels, planets, stars, etc. etc. and later the earth with all we learned and much more.  -  Of sure you can tell me the perfect Bible scriptures to that, I see your big engagement...  I hope, you will find another person here, to discuss this and that ;o)  My time is limited, sorry. Enjoy our great website here !  Wish you a nice day ??☀️

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4 hours ago, Anke Adolphi said:

PS. Trust Jesus, yes...  but  MORE, trust Jehovah, the only ONE God !

Same thing.

 

Jesus is referred to in the Bible AS Jehovah God.

 

The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 

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17 hours ago, Anke Adolphi said:

Jesus  maybe  was  another  kind  of  God.... 

I have a question then, If Jesus is another kind of God, then what do you make of Isaiah 43:10? 

"Before Me there was no God formed and there will be none after Me"

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I have a question then, If Jesus is another kind of God, then what do you make of Isaiah 43:10? 

"Before Me there was no God formed and there will be none after Me"

 

 

 

In some  Bibletranslations,  Jesus were  titled  as  "God"...  in other  Bibles  they  said,  Jesus  was  "one  God"...   /  thats  what  I  meant !

NWT,  According  John  1: 1,  ... and  the  Word  was  a  god  -  our  Insight - book  explains  this  exact.  -  A  son  is  NEVER  also  the  father !  Jesus  is  of  course  inferior  to  Jehovah.  When  Satan  is  titled  as  a  God...  then  its  more  applicable  for  Jesus,  says  the  Insight - book,  also  a  good  reason,  Jesus  is  one  God, or  a  mightier  God,  but  NEVER  the  Almighty  God !  -  Read  more  by  Book  No.1,  Jesus  Christ...

We  very  clear  see  in,  ( Gen. 17:1,  -  Isa. 45:18,  -  Ps. 83:18 )  Jehovah,  our  God,  is  ONE  Jehovah !

I've  all  in  German - language  here,  so  its  little  difficult  and  time-consuming  for  me,  I'm  sorry  -  Thanks !

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Same thing.

 

Jesus is referred to in the Bible AS Jehovah God.

 

The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 

 

But  fact  is :  Jesus  is  in spite  of  everything,  the  SON  of  the  *Almighty  God*  and  that  means,  he  is  inferior  his  Father  Jehovah !  Whatever  you  will  tell  me,  Jesus  maybe  titled  as  a  God,  yes,  thats  true  and  right  -  bec. Satan  is a  *God*  too !  The  God  our  current  systems...  but  after  the  1000 years,  Jesus  will  give  back  his  current  power  to  his  Almighty  Father  -  and  he  will  do  it  with  love,  bec. Jesus  loves  him Then  Jehovah  is  again  the  ONE  and  ONLY  God  for  all  creatures !

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ask yourself this: 

Is Jesus a true God or a false God? 

Is Jesus a God like Moses or not?

Is Jesus a God like Satan or not? 

Was Moses a real God? or like a god?

Is Satan A real true God or not? 

What Is Jesus? A true God or not? If true then what do you make of Isaiah 43:10?

According to WT belief John 1:1 , Jesus is a true God but not God Almighty.

 

What then do you make of Isiah 43:10? 

 

NO OTHER GOD!

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

ask yourself this: 

Is Jesus a true God or a false God? 

Is Jesus a God like Moses or not?

Is Jesus a God like Satan or not? 

Was Moses a real God? or like a god?

Is Satan A real true God or not? 

What Is Jesus? A true God or not? If true then what do you make of Isaiah 43:10?

According to WT belief John 1:1 , Jesus is a true God but not God Almighty.

 

What then do you make of Isiah 43:10? 

 

NO OTHER GOD!

 

No. Address the quotes.

"According to WT belief John 1:1 , Jesus is a true God but not God Almighty."

 

So , you are polytheists.

 

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21 hours ago, Anke Adolphi said:

 

But  fact  is :  Jesus  is  in spite  of  everything,  the  SON  of  the  *Almighty  God*  and  that  means,  he  is  inferior  his  Father  Jehovah !  Whatever  you  will  tell  me,  Jesus  maybe  titled  as  a  God,  yes,  thats  true  and  right  -  bec. Satan  is a  *God*  too !  The  God  our  current  systems...  but  after  the  1000 years,  Jesus  will  give  back  his  current  power  to  his  Almighty  Father  -  and  he  will  do  it  with  love,  bec. Jesus  loves  him Then  Jehovah  is  again  the  ONE  and  ONLY  God  for  all  creatures !

You are confusing god as in eg: a judge as opposed to God as in Deity.

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      Of course it uses a lot of 'artistic licence' and lots of things in it are not facts, but I find it helpful to see the type of lifestyle the Jews lived and to see Jesus and His followers as real people. 
      I don't know if your 'Leaders' will tell you not to watch it, but i found it relaxing and a pleasure to watch. I particularly liked Nicodemus and his meeting with Jesus, the questions asked and answered. 
      I don't think any of you would find it offensive but of course you will note many faults in it, as i did. However, in my opinion it is far better to watch this than watch most other films of our time. 
       
    • By 4Jah2me
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. How Is Jesus’ Sacrifice “a Ransom for Many”?
      Payment. The Bible says that Christians were “bought with a price.” (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) That price is the blood of Jesus, with which he “bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”—Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  Can we please take a look at this little quote from a JW Org page. Link is above for reference. 
      It looks all good doesn't it ? But is it in fact deceiving ? It's the bit that I've highlighted in RED. 
      It's a part quote from a scripture, AND, it is where I say that JW Org misuses scripture. 
      Lets look at the Revelation scripture Ch 5 v 8, 9  BUT also include verse 10. 
      When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.)Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10  and you made them to be a kingdomHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  and priests to our God,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” In the top sentence ( marked as 1. Payment ) the GB / Writing department of CCJW / Watchtower make it look as if the Revelation scripture referenced is talking about ALL Christians. BUT, if we look at verse 10, we can see that it is talking only about the Anointed. How ? Because it says those ones are to rule as kings over the earth.” 
      So, Jesus was slaughtered and with his blood he bought Anointed Ones from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
      Do people fully understand this ?
      These ones eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ.  John 6 v 53 - 56.
       So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54  Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55  for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56  Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him.
      When Anointed ones are resurrected to heavenly life they have no further testing, because they have eaten the flesh and drank the blood of Christ and they are in union with Him. 
      Whereas, the Earthly class do not eat and drink those things, so the ransom has not yet paid the price for them. Therefore the Earthly Class will get a testing at the end of the Thousand Years. Only on passing that test will the ransom of Christ pay the price for them and then they will 'come to life'. 
      I feel these are not my words, but God's. I have never thought of myself as inspired but if i can be of use to God through Christ, then may that take place according to God's will. 
       
    • By 4Jah2me
      If the CCJW is going to be God's / Christ's chosen Organisation to bring humans through 
      Armageddon / Judgement Day
      What serious changes need to take place in it first ?
      As you know my feelings are that neither God nor Christ can use the CCJW as it is. But I am seriously trying to think on a more spiritual level so I'm trying not to be biased. By reading many comments on this forum I've noticed that even those JWs that resolve to stay firmly in the 'Org', still have some feelings of discontent. 
      So the question I'm asking is more to those JWs who are remaining 'faithful' to the CCJW and it's GB. 
      Do you see the need for big changes in the way the CCJW is run ?
      Do you really believe that God & Christ are happy with the CCJW as it is ?
      I am not deviating from my belief of a 'true Anointed' being 'raised up' in these 'last day', but as I've said before that 'true anointed' could well be within the CCJW.
      I'm keeping my mind 'open' to all manner of thoughts, whilst trying to, hopefully with God's guidance, find truth. 
      However, I am of the opinion that 'new light' via the GB, will not provide the answers or right direction that is needed. But that is just my personal opinion, and I may be proven wrong................
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?
      It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.
      People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".
      There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.
      I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.
      Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?
      ....but I digress.
      Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.
      I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.
      But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.
      I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.
      It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.
      Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.
      Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.
      I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.
      Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.
      Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
       
       
       
       

    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?
      It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.
      People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".
      There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.
      I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.
      Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?
      ....but I digress.
      Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.
      I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.
      But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.
      I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.
      It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.
      Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.
      Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.
      I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.
      Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.
      Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
       
       
       
       
    • By The Librarian
      Jehovah in the Bible, the God of Israel who 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , a spirit realm outside the physical heavens and is not omnipresent or "residing" in a human's heart.
      "Jehovah" at Exodus 6:3(1611 King James Version)
      Jehovah /dʒɨˈhoʊvə/ is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה, a vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible, which has also been transcribed as "Yehowah" or "Yahweh". יְהֹוָה appears 6,518 times in the traditional Masoretic Text, in addition to 305 instances of יֱהֹוִה (Jehovih).The earliest available Latin text to use a vocalization similar to Jehovah dates from the 13th century. 
      Relationship of Jehovah with the rest of the Universe
      Think of Jehovah as the Architect of the Universe and Jesus Christ as his "Master Builder" (Proverbs chapter 😎 through whom everything else was created. His first Creation was Jesus Christ himself Billions of years ago before the physical universe ever existed.

      Michael the Archangel (later called Jesus Christ) used God's Holy Spirit in order to create our Universe and later perform miracles related in the Gospels. All energy in the Universe sources with Jehovah God's Holy Spirit and later the exalted and enthroned Jesus Christ enthroned as King would be given "Life within himself" thereby also being given immortality and having his own spirit. (source needed) See also
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Jehovah's Witnesses Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  / Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
       
    • By The Librarian
      The Holy Bible > List of Biblical Persons > Jesus Christ

      Jesus (/ˈdʒiːzəs/; Greek: Ἰησοῦς Iesous; 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . (Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) to 33 C.E.), also referred to as Jesus of Nazareth, is the Son of Jehovah God and the awaited Messiah of the Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .The name Jesus (Gr., I·e·sous′) corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.” The name itself was not unusual, many men being so named in that period. He is also referred to as Jesus Christ, from the Greek Khri·stos′, the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma·shi′ach(Messiah), and means “Anointed One.” Our Modern day, most widely used Gregorian calendar uses the terms B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D. (Anno Domini = Year of our Lord in Latin) basing our current year of 2014 as the year since his supposed birth according to a medieval estimate.

      The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. In heaven he was known as Michael the Archangel. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: “In the beginning the Word [Gr., Lo′gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [“was divine,” AT; Mo; or “of divine being,”Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God.” Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from “the beginning” must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation,” “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ; Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ; Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, His firstborn Son. This is direct opposition to the popular and later teaching of the Trinity by the Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

      That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.

      Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”—Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ; Heb 1:2.

      Jesus began his life billions of years before the first human ever existed (Compare Mic 5:2.) and was used by his father in the creation of all of the universe (Joh 1:3; Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) and the other angels and spirit creatures in heaven (Da 7:9, 10; Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ),

      Jesus was conceived by Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  being transferred from his heavenly life as Michael the Archangel into the womb of a virgin named Mary who was engaged to Joseph. He was born in Bethlehem as a human baby Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . A Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  guiding astrologers to pay tribute to him.
      He was later raised in Nazareth where Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  
       
       
      See also:
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
      The Memorial of the Death of Jesus Christ
    • By Witness
      I found this on another forum.  It is a photo from the jw org online glossary.  Does any JW have an opinion as to why "Jesus" is left out of the glossary?   "Christ", as well as "Messiah" are both noted.  (Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22 NKJV) (Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22 NIV)  Yet, "Jesus", whose name means "YHVH is salvation", or, "Yah will save", isn't listed.  Also, both "Emmanuel"/"Immanuel", which means "God is with us" are not listed.     (Matt 1:23)
      Here is the link: 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • By Bible Speaks
      Would You Walk on this Iceberg?
      Amazing Photo! Amazing God! 
      “Jehovah answered Job out of the windstorm:  2 “Who is this who is obscuring my counsel
      And speaking without knowledge?  3 Brace yourself, please, like a man;
      I will question you, and you inform me.  4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
      Tell me, if you think you understand.  5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
      Or who stretched a measuring line across it?  6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
      Or who laid its cornerstone,  7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
      And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
      22 Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
      Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
      23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
      For the day of battle and war?"
      (Job 38:1-7, 22-23). 
      JW.Org
      #Repost @ladzinski
      ・・・
      Being stuck out at sea among the icebergs and sea ice can make you pretty restless and uneasy. Last July on an expedition in south east greenland we spent 6 days marooned in an ice flow at the mercy of the elements. @mikelibecki and @ethan_pringle seen here getting in a little exercise, jumping ship to climb this #iceberg. My favorite thing about this photograph is that this was Ethan’s first time ever wearing crampons and ice climbing, a very unlikely place for a lesson! @andy_mann @connor_seybert @3stringsproductions @mountainhardwear @dell @djigloba

    • Guest Kurt
      By Guest Kurt
      Was Jesus Crucified on a Cross NO..mp4
       
    • Guest
      By Guest
      C'est moi le Potier dit Jéhovah Dieu 
      Tu es mon vase d'argile ! C'est moi qui t'ai modelé, façonné, 
      Une merveille au creux de ma main. 
      Tu n’es pas encore achevé, tu es en train de prendre la "forme" de mon Fils. 
      Voici que tu te désoles et que tu désespères 
      Parce que tu as pris quelques fêlures au contact des autres. 
      Tu t'es heurté, tu as été ébréché 
      Tu as même pu tomber par terre, te briser et tomber en mille morceaux 
      Fêlures, éraflures, lézardes, brisures, cassures, ratures... 
      N'oublie pas, c'est ta condition de vase. 
      Si je t'avais rangé dans un placard à vaisselle 
      Tu ne connaîtrais pas ces heurts de la vie 
      Mais tu ne servirais à rien ni à personne, tu serais un vase inutile ! 
      Moi, dit Dieu, j'aime les vieux vases, un peu usés, un peu ébréchés. 
      Ils ont toute une histoire, et toi, tu voudrais être lisse comme un nouveau-né ? 
      Je te connais, ô toi que j'ai façonné, pétri avec tant d'amour 
      Je ne voudrais pas que tu te désoles de tes ratées 
      Tu es fait de boue et de lumière, tu es fait pour servir ! 
      A ne regarder que tes failles, tes faiblesses et tes chutes 
      Tu te centres encore trop sur toi-même 
      Et tu restes prisonnier de tes failles ! 
      C'est moi le Potier et je m'y connais dans l'art de reprendre un vase. Laisse-toi faire ! 
      Avec mes doigts d’artiste, j'arrive toujours à rendre plus beau ce qui n'était que fêlure, brisure, cassure. 
      Je suis l’Esprit Créateur, ne l'oublie pas. Je crée ! Je mets la vie ! Je donne le souffle ! 
      Je suis le Potier ! C'est moi qui moule, qui pétris, qui donne la "forme" 
      Toi, mon vase d'argile, Viens te glisser au creux de mes mains paternelles et maternelles 
      Laisse-toi pétrir entre mes doigts d'artiste. 
      Abandonne-toi longuement à mon travail de potier. 
      Expose-moi tes fêlures, tes brisures, tes cassures ! J'aime faire du neuf, j'aime te regarder 
      Voici que je te réchauffe, ô toi mon argile 
      A force de te pétrir, je te communique ma chaleur, ma sueur, 
      mon souffle, mon intimité, ma chaude tendresse. 
      C'est moi le Potier, viens et n'aie plus peur. 
      Chaque fois que tu retombes dans ces fautes que tu ne voudrais pas commettre 
      Je te dis : Le pardon est là ! 
      Viens et continuons ensemble 
      J’aime te regarder, voir les efforts que tu fais et tout le mal que tu te donnes. 
      J'en éprouve grande joie et tu réjouis mon cœur 
      Je vois combien tu te transformes. 
      A l'abri de tes regards Je te modèle 
      A l'image du Fils bien-Aimé 
      Tout ce que je te demande 
      C'est de venir toujours et à nouveau après chaque chute 
      Entre mes mains pour me donner la joie de te remodeler. 
      Allons, n'aie pas peur       C'est moi le Potier 
    • By Jack Ryan
      (I wonder if Keanu Reeves actually said this or if some meme maker just posted this over his photo?)
    • By Jesus.defender
      Did Jesus really say He was God?
      That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).
      On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”

      Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 
      John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
      John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
      John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
      John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
      John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
      Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
      Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "
      Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.
      Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
      2Peter. Jehovah The Father appears.
      John 1. Jehovah the son.
      John 8:58 Jesus identifies Himself as Jehovah "I Am"
      Acts 5. Jehovah the Holy Spirit identified.
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"
      2 Timothy 3 v 16
      Was this in it's way a small prophecy ?                 
      The 2nd book of Timothy was written 65 C.E.  However 1,2,3, John and Revelation were written much later.
      So we have two points, 1. The writings were not complete when Paul wrote that information. 2, The Bible had not been constructed so no idea would have been formed as to what the Bible would contain. 
      Were there other writings ? Would they be considered as Scripture? 
      It seems that Paul was inspired to write that "All scripture is inspired.... " 
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      Biblical Jesus Vs. Mormon Jesus.
      Simply believing in someone named Jesus means NOTHING unless we are talking about the historic, Biblical Jesus.
      The apostle Paul warns us in 2 Corinthians 11:4 — there are some who preach a different Jesus.
      - The Bible teaches that Jesus has always existed as God (John 1:1). Mormons see Jesus as someone who worked His way up to godhood.  In fact, to Mormons, Jesus is merely one in purpose with God the Father; whereas the Bible declares that the Father and the Son are also one in essence (cf. Phil. 2:6) — that they are both equally God and members of the Holy Trinity.
      - The Bible says Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:34-5. Is. 7:14. Matt. 1:18,20.  Mormons see Jesus as being CREATED by sexual relations between God the father and mary.  "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50). "I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ...he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.211); "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.51). Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended by any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). Bruce McConkie (LDS apostle) states: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547, 1979).Carfred Broderick (Mormon author) writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone...latter-day prophets have made it clear that despite what it says in Matthew 1:20, the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus...The Savior was fathered by a personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).
      - Mormons see Jesus as a polygamist. Apostle Orson Hyde: "…Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee... Mary, Martha, and others were his wives ... he begat children" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210). Jedediah M. Grant: "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do... Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified" (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82). Orson Hyde: "It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it" (Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259). Orson Pratt: "We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born... We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives are to be married" (The Seer, p. 172).
      - The Bible says that Jesus created ALL things. This includes lucifer. Gen. 3:1, Ez. 28:13,15,17Mormons see Jesus as a brother of satan, not His brother.
      - Mormons see Jesus was procreated as a spirit child of the Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and later conceived physically by the Heavenly Father and an earthly mother: The Ensign, Jan. 1989, pp.28-29; Come Unto Christ by Ezra Taft Benson, p.4). Bruce McConkie states: "Christ the Word, the Firstborn, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence" (What Mormons Think of Christ, p.36).
      Bruce McConkie continues: "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 129).
      Orson Pratt: "God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born" (The Seer, p. 172).
      "Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons and daughters of Elohim." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol.4, Appendix 4).
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      The JW Org / GB say that Armageddon is very close. They also say that Jehovah is speeding up the work in these 'last days'.
      Now, it seems I'm not one for knowing truth from lies, so people keep telling me, but this webpage/site seemed interesting to me.
       It seems to show more of a decrease in JW's, but more importantly it seems to show more of a lack of faith, or lack of action / 'works' of JW's. It also shows a large number of people leaving the JW Org. 
      If this video or page has been used before then I apologise for any repeat. But I thought it was of interest. 

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • By admin
      He is according to Pope Francis...
      i know a lot of members on here are religious and I saw this in the bookstore today 


    • Guest Nicole
    • By JW Insider
      I have recently, just today, communicated again with Gerard Gertoux requesting permission to quote extensive long passages from his book on this topic as a basis for a more in-depth forum discussion. The Amazon link to his book is here:
      The Name of God Y.eH.oW.aH Which is pronounced as it is Written I_Eh_oU_Ah
      A subset of that same material is also found here:
      http://areopage.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Gertoux_UseNameEarlyChristians.pdf
      Gerard Gertoux has responded that it would be better to use  https://www.academia.edu/14029315 as it is a free version that all of us can download, and it has no copyright.
      Since this topic comes up now and then, under various topic headings, I hope that some might find it useful to understand the basics of his argument. He assumes a lot of background and expertise that many do not have, but the material is accessible enough so that we can all learn a lot about the topic and even about the related background material at the same time.
      Out of respect for the author's wishes, let's not make extensive quotes from the book or the "areopage.net" link above except where fair use might allow. And even the "academia.edu" content should only be quoted in reasonable portions to the extent that it is needed for discussion. I have also mentioned to the author that I will do my best to keep the topic from devolving into a discussion of the Trinity. I will try to keep the discussion on topic, which also means that it should not become a free-for-all with critiques of the New World Translation or the persons who may have worked on it.
      The topic will not revolve only around Gerard Gertoux's writing, but it's a good place to start. Feel free to bring in evidence from other authors and researchers if it is related to the questions. As a reminder the evidence we discuss should focus especially on the following questions:
      Did Jesus and the apostles and disciples of the first century use the Divine Name? Did they read it aloud when they came to it in the OT Scriptures? Did they include it (and therefore expect it to be used aloud) in the writings of the NT? [And, of course, feel free to use the terms OT and NT as abbreviations for "Hebrew Scriptures" and "Christian Greek Scriptures" respectively.]
    • By Witness
      Pearl Doxsey, July 2, 2018:
      Many refute that Michael the archangel is an identity of Jesus Christ, in his capacity as protector of the saints (Dan.12:1;John17:12; 6:39; 18:9; Rev.19:12) and defender of God's supremacy in the face of global idolatry (Rev.13:8,4) 
      (The name "Michael" means, "Who is like God?").
      Those who refute that role of the resurrected Jesus Christ, point to the fact that Jesus could not be a mere angel, even if being, an arch - angel. 
      Those who make such an assertion, apparently do not know the meaning of the Greek word, angelos. It simply means "messenger" (John12:49; 7:16). 
      The Greek meaning of "arch", is defined as the original prototype, with no equal. To be the "archangel", is to be supreme among God's messengers. 
      When Armageddon arrives, Jesus takes on an identity of a warrior (Rev.19:11,14; 17:14; 12:7) (Rev.3:12; Jer.31:33; Heb.10:16;Ex.34:14; Deut.11:18; Rev.7:3; 13:7,8,16,4). The name "Michael" ("Who is like God?"), perfectly describes his battle tactic and purpose, and indicates the target of his warfare that needs to be neutralized by the strategy reflected in that victorious name (Isa.40:25,18; 46:5) (Rev.13:14).

      Others may refute this named role of Jesus, based upon Michael being called "the great prince" (Dan.12:1) and "one of the chief princes" (Dan.10:12-14). Those are the topics that the link below, addresses.
      The article on the chief princes was broken down into three parts/questions. Previously, only part one was finished. This post serves as notice, that part two is now ready.
      June 6, 2015:
      QUESTION:

      "does the Bible shed light on how many Chief Princes are there and who they are as stated in Daniel 10:13 Michael, one of the chief princes"

      MY REPLY:

      Yes, the Bible sheds light on how many Chief Princes there are,
      who these chief princes are, and who all the princes are, among whom there are chief princes.
      Accordingly, I will answer your question in three parts.
      1. Who are all the "princes"?
      2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?
      3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
          (Jude1:9; Dan.10:21; 8:25; Acts 3:15)
          (Jude1:9; Job 1:8-11; Zech.3:1-2; Rev.12:10 --
                        "Moses" -Deut.18:15,18; Heb.3:5; Matt.16:28; 17:1-3,5; 2Pet.1:18; Rev.14:1)
      -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

      1. Who are the Bible's princes?

      I will limit my reply to the princes of God's covenant woman, and not include the princes of Satan's covenant of death
      (Eph.2:2; Isa.31:9; Eze.21:25; 22:27; 38:3; Dan.9:26; 10:20; Zeph.3:3; Rev.18:23; 9:7).

      The princes under the Great "guardian" Prince/Rescuer, (Dan.12:1; Isa.49:24-25; Matt.12:29; Rev.20:1-2; Luke10:19), who is Christ,
           (Isa.9:6; Dan.9:25; 12:1; John17:12; 6:39; 10:28; Matt.28:20),
      are the kings under the great king (Rev.19:16; 1:5; 3:21; 5:9,10; Eph.2:6; 1:22; Col.1:13).

      They are also considered by God, Christ's sons, because by means of Christ, they receive spirit life (John10:10; 20:22; 6:63; 5:21;17:2; Rom.8:9,10,11,13; 1John4:9,13; 5:11-12; 2:25; John3:6,15,36; 6:47,48,51,57,63; 10:28; Heb.5:9). "But", you may protest, "don't we all become 'sons of God'?". Yes. But there is more to it.---

      Within the Bible, forefathers are multiple. This tradition is a cultural difference from most modern day societies. 
      Please let me explain...
      Within the Bible, living faithful can have more than one father... both God and Christ (Isa.9:6).  Christ received his life from God first, before he can pass that incorruptible seed to those after him (1Pet.1:23; Luke8:11; John12:49; 6:63; James1:21).
      "Grandfather" is not in the Bible's language. This is why Abraham, David, Jacob, etc., are considered "fathers" of many subsequent generations. 
      All the generations of their descendants, have all of these as "fathers"
      (Zech.1:2,4-6; Acts3:13; 7:19; John8:39; Ex.3:6; Luke1:32; Matt.1:1), regardless of how many generations may come and go in between.

      Accordingly, we should not limit the spiritual lineage of those born of spirit, to either God or Christ as "father". Such ones are "sons" of both. Yet some are born of God's spirit directly (Rom.8:16; Heb.2:11), and others, through Christ and his bride (1Cor.15:45; Gal.4:26; Rev.22:17). 
      You may have noticed that within the scriptures, our spiritual fathers are the ones whom we imitate (John8:39,44; Eph.5:1;1Pet.1:16; Matt.5:44,45,48).  We can therefore, also be sons of Christ (1Pet.2:21) and of the sealed faithful (1Cor.11:1;4:15,14,16,17; 1John2:13,14; Philemon 1:10; Luke1:17; Phil.2:22; 3:17; 1Thess.2:11; 1:6) (Mal.4:5-6). 


      Hopefully, all these previous scriptures have helped to establish within your understanding, that whoever we imitate and do the will of, becomes our spiritual father (Eph.5:1; Matt.12:50; 7:21; 1John2:17; Rom.8:14) -- (Eph.2:2; John8:44). 
      If you do grasp that imitating Christ (1Cor.11:1; 1Pet.2:21) can make us his son, it will then be easier to grasp who the "princes" are. 

      First, lets look at Ps.45:16, which speaks of the dominion of Christ.

      "In place of your fathers will be your sons;
      You shall make them princes in all the earth."

      In place of Christ's kingly forefathers (Luke1:32; Isa.9:7; Matt.12:42), will come his spiritual sons (Heb.2:1-9,14,13,16; Isa.8:18;John10:28,29; 6:37-39; 17:2; 1Pet.1:5; Matt.18:3; 19:14), with whom he shares his kingdom (Ps.132:12; 110:2; Rev.3:21; 14:1;Jer.17:25; Eze.37:25; 34:24) (Heb.2:5,16; Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Gen.28:13,14; 13:14,15).
      They become co-kings (2Tim.2:12; Rev.5:9,10; 20:6) and co-princes (Isa.10:8; 9:6; Acts3:15; 5:31; Isa.32:1,2).
      As heirs of the earth, these will heal creation (Rom.8:19; Rev.22:1,2; 21:2-5; Jer.17:7,8; Matt.7:20; Eze.36:8), and also provide a "fatherly" example, that leads to life (1Cor.4:15-17; Phil.3:17; 4:9; 2Thess.3:9; 1Thess.1:6; 2Tim.3:14,15; Heb.13:7; 1Pet.5:3).
      From the foregoing reply to the first question...
      "Who are all the princes?";
      I hope you now perceive, that all those redeemed from death by Christ (Rev.5:9,10; 1Cor.15:54-55; Acts20:28) which "church" is the chosen saints of God's household (1Tim.3:15; 1Cor.14:33; 1Pet.2:10,9), are given fatherly life by Christ's blood...
             (through the new mother covenant of promise/sealed Bride
                 -Gal.4:26,24; Matt.26:28; Rom.9:8; Rev.12:2; Gal.4:19; Eph.4:13; 1Thess.2:7; 3John1:4) 
      ...These are his "sons", referred to as "princes" at Psalm 45:16.
      As such, they become "heirs of the earth" 
      (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Heb.2:5,16; Matt.5:5; Psalm.37:11,22,29)
      and are, 
      "all the princes".

      2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?

      Based upon the facts established above, we can re-word this question as, "Who are the "chief saints/sons of God" among all the saints/anointed chosen and holy ones?". Does such a position, exist? Please consider:
      Luke 12:42; John 21:17
      Although all members of the "one body" bride of Christ (Eph.5:31-32; 1Cor.6:17) are needed by all other members (1Cor.12:21,25;4:7); each has their own assignment (1Cor.12:14,4-7,18,11,20; Eph.4:8,11-12). 
      Some are given more responsibility (Luke 12:42; Mark 13:34; Matt.25:14-15; James 3:1; 1Cor.12:24,26; Luke 14:8,10-11), as "chief princes". How does the Bible describe the position held by those appointed as such?
      One of the symbols used to describe the body of Christ, is as God's Temple (Rom.12:5; 1Cor.3:16; 1Pet.2:5,9-10; Col.1:13).
      Jesus, is described as the cornerstone of that Temple (1Pet.2:6-8; Matt.7:24-25). If we build our faith upon the teachings of that cornerstone, we will not be put to shame but all we teach, will be proven true (Rom.10:11; 3:4; John7:16-18). Can you perceive how the symbolic "chief" cornerstone of our faith (remember, "chief princes"?), is the first symbolic foundation to our worship in spirit and truth? 
      If so, then we are starting to build the Temple of God, within your perception. If the "chief cornerstone" is the "great prince"/"chief prince" (Dan.12:1)... What about the other "chief princes" (Dan.10:13)? Does the Bible describe the rest of God's symbolic Temple, as having other foundation stones, upon which our faith needs to be chiefly built upon?
      Please consider Eph.2:20-22; 3:5; Rev.21:14; 1:20; Dan.12:3-4; Phil.2:15; 2Cor.11:4; Gal.1:8-9; Luke12:42; 1Pet.5:2;Heb.13:17; 1Cor.4:15)
      1Cor.12:28 and Eph.2:20, clarify the arrangement of authority ("chiefs") within the congregation, appointed by God and Christ. The apostles are our foundation stones, along with Jesus the cornerstone, of the truth. 
      ---No one can remain in union with the cornerstone and head of the body, if they leave the teachings of the apostles, whom he appointed as fatherly heads to the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel (Matt.3:9; Gal.3:29,26; Rom.2:28-29; Rev.7:7; 21:11-12,14). 
      ---No one can remain in union with the unfolding direction of holy spirit, if they leave the declarations and warnings of the genuine and faithful prophets, whose foundation is the right hand of Jesus (Rev.1:20; 22:6; Amos 3:7; 2Pet.1:21; 1Cor.14:32-33;Rev.11:3-5; Jer.23:29; Zech.4:11-14,6; Hosea 6:5; Rev.22:6; Mal.3:1-3; Rev.11:3). Those "stars" provide the light of spirit to each of their assigned "lampstands" (Rev.1:20), which lampstands hold up, and work to make visible (Matt.5:14-15; Eph.2:19;Gal.6:10), the prophet/"star" whom they support (Heb.6:10).
      We have learned that the symbolic foundation to the Temple of God's spirit (1Cor.3:16), is the truth of the apostles and the spirit of the prophets (Eph.2:20; 3:5). They are both necessary if a disciple is to lay a foundation of faith and worship, upon spirit and truth (John4:24). The apostles and prophets who produce spiritual food sourced in the spirit and truth from Christ (John15:4-5,8,16;Rev.22:1-2), are the "chief princes"/foundation stones. They are aligned with the cornerstone, and provide a basis upon which the living stones of the Temple of God, rest.

      3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
      Dan.12:1 reads; “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

      [Before I go into Part 3: The Great Prince; I would like to offer additional information on other points made by Dan.12:1. 
      First, the unprecedented "time of distress". Here is a link to start off the information about the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:21)

      Second, the Book of the Lamb, within which the names of the delivered, are written (Rev.13:8; 21:27; 3:5; 17:8; 20:15,12)

      (TO BE CONTINUED)
      Pearl Doxsey – “WHO ARE THE CHIEF PRINCES?”
      4womaninthewilderness
    • By The Librarian
      1934 Jehovah.mp3
      Talk by Judge Rutherford
       
      Part of the archive:
       
    • By The Librarian
      Part of a series on:
       
      ALMIGHTY.
      Heb., Shad·dai′, plural to denote excellence, occurs 41 times and is translated “Almighty” or “Almighty One.” (Ge 49:25; Ps 68:14) The corresponding word in the Christian Greek Scriptures is Pan·to·kra′tor and means “Almighty,” or, “Ruler Over All; One Who Has All Power.” (2Co 6:18; Re 15:3) The expression ʼEl Shad·dai′, “God Almighty,” occurs seven times in M and indicates that Jehovah has irresistible power.—Ge 17:1; Ex 6:3.
      ANCIENT OF DAYS.
      Aram., ʽAt·tiq′ Yoh·min′, meaning “One Advanced [or, Aged] in Days.”—Da 7:9, 13, 22.
       
      CREATOR. 
      Heb., Boh·reʼ′. (Isa 40:28; 42:5) GRAND CREATOR.—Ec 12:1.
       
      FATHER. 
      Heb., ʼAv; Gr., Pa·ter′; Lat., Pa′ter; as Creator (Isa 64:8); as giver of everlasting life to all those who exercise faith. (Joh 5:21) The expression “Holy Father” is used exclusively with reference to Jehovah.—Joh 17:11. Compare Mt 23:9.
      GOD. 
      Heb., ʼEl, without the definite article, probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.”—Ge 14:18.
       
      GOD. 
      Heb., ʼEloh′ah, singular of ʼElo·him′, without the definite article. It occurs 41 times in Job and 16 times in other books.—Job 3:4.
      GOD. 
      Heb., ʼElo·him′, without the definite article. In The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, Chicago and New York, 1905, p. 208, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in אלהים [ʼElo·him′] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . אלהים [ʼElo·him′] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God. It ranks with the plurals אדנים [ʼadho·nim′, “master”] and בעלים [beʽa·lim′, “owner; lord”], employed with reference to human beings.” ʼElo·him′ draws attention to Jehovah’s strength as the Creator and occurs 35 times in the creation account.—Ge 1:1-2:4.
      GOD OF GODS (LORD OF LORDS).
      De 10:17; Da 2:47.
       
      GOD OF TRUTH. 
      Heb., ʼEl ʼemeth′, indicating that Jehovah is true and faithful in all his dealings.—Ps 31:5.
       
      GRAND GOD. 
      Aram., ʼElah′ rav.—Da 2:45.
       
      HAPPY GOD. 
      Gr., ma·ka′ri·os The·os′.—Compare 1Ti 1:11.
       
      HOLY GOD. 
      Heb., ʼElo·him′ qedho·shim′.—Jos 24:19.
       
      HOLY, HOLY, HOLY. 
      Heb., qa·dhohsh′, qa·dhohsh′, qa·dhohsh′. This expression as applied to Jehovah includes holiness, cleanness, purity and sacredness to the superlative degree.—Isa 6:3; Re 4:8.
      INDEFINITELY LASTING GOD. 
      Heb., ʼEl ʽoh·lam′.—Ge 21:33.
       
      INSTRUCTOR. 
      Heb., Moh·reh′. (Job 36:22) GRAND INSTRUCTOR.—Isa 30:20.
       
      I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.
      See Ex 3:14 ftn.
       
      JEALOUS. 
      Heb., Qan·naʼ′, meaning “Insisting on Exclusive Devotion.”—Ex 34:14; see also Eze 5:13.
       
      JEHOVAH GOD.
      Ge 2:4. See App 1A.
       
      JEHOVAH OF ARMIES (JEHOVAH OF HOSTS) (LORD OF HOSTS). 
      (This expression with minor variations occurs 283 times in M. It also occurs twice in the Christian Greek Scriptures where Paul and James quoted or alluded to prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures. (See Ro 9:29; Jas 5:4.) The expression “Jehovah of armies” indicates the power held by the Ruler of the universe, who has at his command vast forces of spirit creatures.—Ps 103:20, 21; 148:2; Isa 1:24; Jer 32:17, 18. See App 1E.
      KING OF ETERNITY. 
      Gr., Ba·si·leus′ ton ai·o′non.—Compare 1Ti 1:17.
       
      KING OF THE NATIONS. 
      Heb., Me′lekh hag·goh·yim′.—Jer 10:7.
       
      LIVING GOD. 
      Heb., ʼElo·him′, with the plural adjective chai·yim′ (De 5:26); or with the singular adjective chai (Isa 37:4, 17); Gr., The·os′ zon.—Compare Heb 3:12.
      MAJESTY. 
      Gr., Me·ga·lo·sy′ne, denoting his lofty, superior position. (Compare Heb 1:3; 8:1.) MAJESTIC ONE. Heb., ʼAd·dir′.—Isa 33:21.
      MAKER. 
      Heb., ʽO·seh′. (Ps 115:15; Jer 10:12) GRAND MAKER.—Isa 54:5.
       
      MOST HIGH. 
      Heb., ʽEl·yohn′.—De 32:8; Ps 9:2; 83:18.
       
      MOST HOLY ONE. 
      Heb., Qedho·shim′, plural to denote excellence and majesty.—Pr 30:3.
       
      OVERSEER OF YOUR SOULS.
      1Pe 2:25.
       
      THE ROCK. 
      Heb., hats·Tsur′. (De 32:4) Figuratively used to describe Jehovah’s qualities as perfect, just, faithful, righteous and upright; as father (De 32:18); as a stronghold (2Sa 22:32; Isa 17:10); as a secure height and refuge (Ps 62:7; 94:22); as a source of salvation.—De 32:15; Ps 95:1.
      SAVIOR. 
      Heb., Moh·shi′aʽ (Isa 43:11; 45:21); Gr., So·ter′.—Compare Lu 1:47.
       
      SHEPHERD.
      Ps 23:1; 1Pe 2:25.
       
      SOVEREIGN LORD.
      Ge 15:2; Lu 2:29. See App 1E.
       
      SUPREME ONE. 
      Aram., ʽEl·yoh·nin′.—Da 7:18, 22, 27.
       
      THE [TRUE] GOD. 
      Heb., ha·ʼElo·him′.—See App 1F.
       
      THE [TRUE] GOD. 
      Heb., ha·ʼEl′.—See App 1G.
       
      THE [TRUE] LORD. 
      Heb., ha·ʼA·dhohn′. -
    • By Diakonos
      One thing that has always puzzled me is this: what happened to the spirit creature Michael when Jesus was conceived/born as a human? We are told that Jehovah transferred Michael's life pattern into Jesus in much the same way as God will do for those who are resurrected. This would mean that when Jesus was alive on earth there was no Michael in heaven. As we do not believe that humans have a spirit, in the accepted sense of the word, the question remains, what happened to Michael during Jesus earthly presence?




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