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Israeli Bar Avaddhon

Which nations disappear in Armageddon?

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Chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation will unveil some significant details about the war of Armageddon and what will happen next.
These details will include two major changes to the current understanding and, just as happened with the identity of Babylon the Great, this "change of vision" will be a real stumbling block for many Jehovah's Witnesses.
These chapters will be examined in the next article but, faced with such a serious change of understanding for two other subjects, it was decided to treat them separately in the light of the whole Scripture.
First of all we must realize that the Revelation speaks of the resurrection at the end of the millennium, and not during the millennium.
This will be dealt with in detail in due course. For the moment ... accept this possibility only to make the theme of this article comprehensible, which must answer the question, in fact, "which nations disappear in Armageddon?".
It is clear that here we return to the usual "problem" if the book was written in chronological order or not but meanwhile we saw that the 7 seals are sequential, the 7 trumpets must be sequential (the apostle Paul calls the seventh trumpet "the last trumpet") and so also the seven cups of the wrath of God.
If all this is sequential ... is it consistent to think that just the last chapters are not?
Let's try to read the whole chapter 20 of Revelation and follow the order of events.
Satan is dissolved from his prison, then misleads the nations that are at the corners of the earth, these surround the field of saints and then are killed by fire coming down from the sky.
After this event, the death and hades return the dead that are in them - Revelation 20: 11-13
The writing of Revelation 20: 4 says that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.
"Until" means "up to the moment" and not "during" and this would mean that in these thousand years the elect would rule on the survivors of Armageddon and their families, but not the resurrected ones.
The same term, "until", used in Matthew 1:25, we have always used it to show that Joseph did not have relations with his wife Marie until the birth of the child.
This should be sufficient to show that the resurrection will take place after the end of the millennium, a concept that seems to be reaffirmed in verses 12 and 13.
We will go deeper into these verses but now let's focus on these "rebels" who attack the people of God.
Who are they and where did they come from?
Revelations 20:7-10 says... "Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison,
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 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma?gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.
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 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them.
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 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast
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and the false prophet already were;
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and they will be tormented
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day and night forever and ever".
At the end of a thousand years, Satan is dissolved to "mislead those nations that are in the four corners of the earth" and gathers them to war.
It seems really incredible that something like that happens!
Is it possible that in the new world people still organize themselves in political nations, that create divisions and that even attack the part of that people remained faithful?
This is the first hypothesis and roughly represents the current intention.
Before thinking that it is nonsense ... is it possible to hypothesize that during the Armageddon war a part of the earth is spared also to allow the survival of the people of God?
In several parts of the Bible it is said that during the time of judgment his faithful people escapes finding shelter to Edom, Moab and Ammon (which by the way are also the cities spared from the world war) - Compare for example Daniel 11:41 with Isaiah 16: 4; Psalm 108: 8-10 with Jeremiah 40: 10, 11
These three nations (Edom, Moab and Ammon) were mountainous / hilly and this recalls the words Jesus spoke to his disciples - Matthew 24: 15, 16
Does Scripture warn all Christians in the world to flee to the nearest mountains as soon as they see the disgusting thing about Israel?
Indeed, if the destruction of Babylon the Great gave rise to Armageddon (as we have seen) and not to the great tribulation, "fleeing the mountains" would mean that Jehovah would save these mountains by force of things.
In fact these "mountains" could be a specific locality of the earth where Jehovah will lead his people just before Armageddon.
This or these locations would then be "preserved by judgment".
It would not be the first time that Jehovah, in his love and mercy, avoids destroying a certain people because of his servants.
According to the account of Genesis 19:21, 22, the angels of Jehovah avoid destroying Zoar for consideration of Lot, and yet, from what is understood by reading the whole story, that "little city" was part of Sodom or Gomorrah and therefore had to be destroyed.
The war of Armageddon actually destroys the satanic system composed of the wild beast, the false prophet and his supporters. All those nations that are compact in fighting against the Lamb also fall.
The vast majority of people die in this war because blinded and branded by the wild beast but will die all those who are not Christians?
The Philadelphia congregation is told that "it would be preserved by the test that must come on the entire inhabited earth" and that this can be done at least hypothesizes that some Christians find shelter in a "free zone" - Revelation 3:10
If we can hypothesize this, then the nations that at the end of the millennium decide to attack the people of God, could be born from these surviving strains. Why, in fact, would you make a distinction between them and "the field of saints"?
Are not all the inhabitants of the new world "saints"?
In the new world will there be a "field of saints" and a "field of non-saints"?
Another confirmation could come from the very protection of Jerusalem above; it is said to "fly in the desert" far from the face of the serpent.
When Satan tries to make her drown "the earth comes to her aid" and this means that at least until the last moment of divine judgment there is still a "stable" part of the world - Revelation 12:15
This could also explain why the resurrection does not take place during this millennium; simply because you are not yet in that new world that we imagine even if it will already be a new world and you will already have many reasons to be happy.
We should probably make a distinction between "millennial reign" (which will bring many blessings to faithful humanity) and "new world" that will begin after the resurrection, at the moment when Christ returns the kingdom to his God and Father.
This period could simply be a period of transition during which human beings can live in peace without the influence of Satan and under the guidance of divine teaching for all those who wish to obey.
In fact, one of the questions Satan raised in the Garden of Eden was precisely if man was able to govern himself but man, with the interference of Satan, he never really ruled alone.
 
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Can man direct his steps without God and without Satan? Also to this we must answer
 
This is related to the words of Revelation 20: 3; Satan is bound "not so misleads the nations" and that it is necessary to give definitively answer to the issue raised in Eden.
However, if all the nations were destroyed at Armageddon ... how could he mislead them?
Would it make sense to say that Satan is bound to keep the nations that no longer exist?
Possible nations in the four corners of the earth, born of this spared stock, could show if man is really able to govern himself in favorable conditions, that is without the influence of Satan.
After this last human rebellion, which will have consciously shown that they prefer Satan's government to that of Jehovah, both Satan and disobedient humanity will be eliminated forever.
Only after the resurrection of the dead and after their judgment "death and Ades will be thrown into the lake of fire" and therefore we should assume that, throughout the millennium, despite having favorable conditions, we will continue to age and die?
It is unthinkable because the anointed rulers will fulfill their priestly functions by expiating the sin of humanity and thus preventing the death of their subjects.
Death that, however, will always be lurking and not yet permanently eliminated until the end of the millennium.
It will be "the last enemy" to be eliminated in fact, if at the end of the millennium there will still be "enemies to be eliminated" (the nations surrounding the holy field), this should demonstrate that the resurrection, and therefore the definitive elimination of death, it will happen only after that event - I Corinthians 15:26
In this regard the writing of I Corinthians 15:24, 25, if read carefully, seems to specify the order of events, that is, Jesus Christ will deliver the Kingdom to his God and Father when he has reduced to nothing "every government and every authority and power".
Obviously if every government and every authority and power were reduced to nothing during the war of Armageddon, He (Jesus Christ) should deliver the government at that very moment, that is, when he had just taken power.
Let's reread these last six lines and try to understand their meaning even if "this meaning" goes out blatantly against our most deeply rooted convictions.
Verse 25 says ... "For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet".
This would seem to mean that there will still be enemies during the millennial reign.
So the Kingdom ruled by Christ will be a temporary provision to Jehovah's praise to bring humanity back to perfection and this can also include the destruction of the last governments, authorities and powers, which will ultimately refuse to submit - Revelation 20: 8
 
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Who will truly surround the "field of saints"?
 
 
In Ezekiel chapter 38 the verses from 8 on wards it is said that attention will be paid to Gog of Magog after "many days" and therefore suggests that these had been left out that is not taken into account or spared during of judgment.
Does not it seem a contradiction that Gog of Magog exists at the end of the satanic system of things and exists again in the new world at the end of the millennium?
Does it not reflect that this "coalition of nations" always has the same name and indeed, in the description of Ezekiel, does not the subject change at all?
If Gog of Magog is a coalition of nations, does not it seem strange that nations are formed under the reign of Christ?
It is a contradiction only if we take for granted that all governments and all people are really destroyed in Armageddon.
Evidently Gog of Magog does not exist again but it still exists (ie it has never ceased to exist).
If "pay attention to him" after many days it means that they are always theirs and the "many days" are all the years of the millennial reign.
Gog of Magog always has the same name because it is always the same subject.
The people who "accumulate wealth and property" are obviously the people of God (the "field of saints" according to Revelation) and this indicates the many blessings that God's people will have during the millennial reign and the contrast with other peoples (why specify that there is a people that accumulates wealth if all accumulate the same riches?).
Blessings that, apparently, will not have Gog of Magog otherwise there would be no such contrast and there would be no reason to feel envy - Ezekiel 38:12; compare Proverbs 10:22
Why, moreover, would there be this contrast with those who "do not even bar and doors" if we are all in a new world of peace, without thieves or other criminals? - Ezekiel 38:11
If read simply for what it is, the scripture really seems to indicate that, during the millennial reign of Christ, there still exist peoples who have bars and doors and are evidently those who have never been interested in the will of God for whom they must put " bars and doors" and pay attention to their own brothers.
The events related to Gog Magog, described in chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel, are full of interesting details but one of the things that stands out right now is the distinction between them and Israel.
It therefore seems that Israel, or the holy people of God, will live together with these other peoples for a thousand years - Ezekiel 39: 6, 7
At this point the writing of Isaiah 2: 2-4 acquires a particular meaning.
So far we have applied this writing to people who, by accepting the truth today, change their behavior and "make their swords into plowshares" by becoming peaceful people.
We have also applied it to the instruction that will be given to the resurrected in the New World, but let us now try to reread it by accepting the possibility of what we have just described.
Isaiah 2: 2-4: "In the final part of the days,
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The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
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And it will be raised up above the hills,And to it all the nations will stream.
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 And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,To the house of the God of Jacob.
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He will instruct us about his ways,And we will walk in his paths.”
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For law
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will go out of Zion,And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
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 He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight
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respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears.
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Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore".
 
The mountain of Jehovah's house will be firmly established and raised. When?
Evidently when the Satan system is eliminated, it will be clear that Jehovah's way of governing is the best ever.
"All nations must flow to it", in what sense and which nations?
Many nations have indeed flowed into the people of God, for whom it is recognized that fulfillment could have something to do with our days; nevertheless, it is possible that, at the end of Armageddon, people of the nations survived by the judgment of God (the peoples at the four corners of the earth) decide to flow to the mountain of Jehovah.
After the incredible events of Armageddon, it should by now be clear who the True God is and what His people are.
In this way, too, Jehovah is sanctified in the midst of the nations.
Many people flow and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will certainly walk in his paths" so it's describes as their own initiative and not as someone who has been persuaded through the preaching of the good news. Indeed, they themselves are saying "he will instruct us around his ways".
We can imagine that many survivors will flow to the mountain of Jehovah once they have seen the great signs of Armageddon, abandoning their old nation and making the necessary changes to be accepted by God - Compare Revelation 11:13 and Joshua 9: 8-11
Yet it is easy enough to imagine that, despite these unequivocal signs of Jehovah's blessing on His people, not everyone will decide to be part of it.
So many people will continue to stay in their nations, with their governments, refusing to rush to Jehovah's mountain.
Seen from this perspective, it is no longer so incredible to imagine that, at the end of the millennium, when God's people have accumulated riches and blessings to no end, these nations organize themselves to "take many spoils" - Ezekiel 38: 10-12
Even the writing of Daniel 2:44 should make us reflect.
The writing says: "“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom
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that will never be destroyed.
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And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people.
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It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms,
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and it alone will stand forever".
What realms is Daniel talking about?
If we read the preceding verses we understand that we are talking about the kingdoms that make up the image of a man with a golden head, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of copper, legs of iron and feet of iron and clay .
We know very well that these kingdoms are respectively Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome and, according to current understanding, the Anglo-American empire (but, as we saw in a previous article, the last dominant king must be the king of the north).
The same powers, also in the book of Daniel, are described as the lion with the wings of an eagle (or Babylon described in Daniel 7: 4), the ravenous bear with three ribs between the teeth (Media- Persia described in Daniel 7: 5), the leopard with four heads and four wings (the Macedonian or Greek empire described in Daniel 7: 6) and the frightful and terrible beast with the iron teeth and the ten horns (Rome and therefore the last power described in Daniel 7: 7, 8, 19).
Why are the same realms or domains seen in two different ways?
This is interesting because the beast that John sees "ascending from the sea" has characteristics of all these beasts - Revelation 13: 1, 2
It is in fact similar to a leopard, has the feet of a bear, the mouth of the lion and the ten horns of the last beast seen by Daniel.
These are the kings that are destroyed by Jesus Christ and his elect at Armageddon, that is, the kingdoms that will coalesce in the final battle.
Obviously it includes his image (the UN) and the false prophet - Revelation 19:19, 20
It includes all those who participated in the war, directly or indirectly, and all those who have persecuted or unjustly treated God's people - Revelation 19:21; Zechariah 2: 8
Surely a good part of humanity will be killed in this war because the ruler of the world will make sure to have as many people as possible, but will this mean that all kingdoms and all people will be destroyed except for Christians?
Even those insignificant, small realms?
Even those isolated from the rest of the world, like islands or small ethnic groups, including those people who, living in countries that are restrictive of religion or other religions, have never had the opportunity to know the marvelous truths of God's word? - See Ezekiel 39: 6
These are questions to think about.
It is true that the "good news" was preached in all the inhabited earth before the end of the satanic system ... but did this really understand all the people and everyone really had the same opportunities?
Beyond any human hypothesis, the words that should make us reflect more are those reported in Daniel 7:11, 12.
The writing says ... "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant
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words that the horn was speaking;
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I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire.
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 But as for the rest of the beasts,
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their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season
".
What does this mean and how long does it last "a time and a season"?
Meanwhile, from the context we see that the horn that speaks great things is referred to the "terrible and terrible beast" that is the last beast of Daniel's vision.
There is talk of the period in which "thrones are placed" and "the Ancient of days" sits to judge and therefore can only refer to the time when Jehovah and Christ take power - Revelation 11: 15-18
It is said that the beast is killed and his body is given to the burning fire - Compare Revelation 19:19, 20
It is evident that the scripture is referring to the wild beast of Revelation at the time of its judgment and yet, after specifying that the beast is given to the burning fire (therefore it has been destroyed), verse 12 says ... "But as for the rest of the beasts,
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their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season
".
This specifies very clearly that the other domains are not destroyed but allows them to continue to exist for some time after the judgment of Armageddon.
We try to stop for a moment and reread the last four lines carefully comparing the cited writings.
In fact, if we read Revelation 19: 19-21 carefully, we see that the wild beast, the kings of the earth and their armies gather to make war against Jesus Christ and his army, but who is destroyed among all these?
The writing says that the wild beast and the false prophet is taken and thrown into the lake of fire.
Then, verse 21 says "the rest were killed with the long sword of him who sat on the horse, which [sword] came out of his mouth."
The remaining whom?
There are two subjects involved: the kings of the earth and their armies.
By saying "the rest" does the vision refer to kings, their armies or both?
If he also referred to both of Daniel's writing, he specifies that the domains of these kings are simply removed, not destroyed.
Surely die those who are in that position (armies, any generals or kings) in fact the writing says that "they are killed" but they are not said to end up in the lake of fire.
We know that the lake of fire means the second death and that is a place from which we do not return so we have the assurance that the wild beast is destroyed so as not to return again but the "remaining" are not uprooted from the earth. Not yet.
Those who are waging war against the Lamb are killed, but evidently there will remain something of their kingdoms, that is, the nations belonging to these "remaining" who have been granted an extension for a time and a season.
These will have a thousand years to recover and at least a part of them, quite numerous according to the words of Revelation 20: 8, will attack the people of God at the end of the millennium.
Gog of Magog existed before Armageddon and will exist even later.
Finally, as we have seen, after the destruction of these enemies there is still "one last enemy" to be eliminated: the death - See 1 Corinthians 15:26
This confirms the sequence of events of Revelation.
 

 

 

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I also did not understand Rev. 20:5, so I posted the question: Can anyone explain this to me?: The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1,000 years were ENDED.

I received a reply explaining that Scripture. By "come to life" it is talking about the "REAL" life, after the final test at the end of the 1,000 years: Hello, DeeDee, think about what this verse is speaking about. It is not as hard as one think. Who partake of the 'first' resurrection? Those of the heavenly hope, and when they are given life, they are immortal, death has no hold there is no last test for them, correct? But those brought back to life during the reign of Christ, what happens when Satan is let loosed upon the earth? We all must past this final test, because if any fail they will end up where? So after this test death will be no more, all who pass has nothing but life in front of them, no testing of where their sovereignty lies, they have proved it. So the writer could put this what he saw in the future in those very words. Everyone else, the dead, would not come to life without death, until the 1000 yrs had ended.

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Everyone can say what he wants. However, the order of events is well described in Revelation.
At the end of Armageddon Satan is bound and thrown into the abyss - Revelation 20: 1-3
The first resurrection is completed - Revelation 20: 4-6
At the end of a thousand years, Satan is dissolved to divert the nations to the four corners of the earth and finally thrown into the lake of fire - Revelation 20: 7-10
Then the resurrection of the dead takes place - Revelation 20: 11-15

It is not difficult to understand the order of events if we read the text without preconceptions.
There is no mention of "real life" or "fake life".
the resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium.

Obviously someone will say that Revelation "is not written in chronological order" but this is not logical.
In Revelation one speaks of the seven seals of the scroll that the Lamb opens.
The seals are in chronological order.
So we talk about the seven trumpets and also these are in chronological order
The "governing body" says that they are not in chronological order

In fact, the seventh trumpet would be played in 1914 while the sixth in 1922 or so (now I do not remember precisely).
Meanwhile, the meaning of sixth and seventh is not logical.
"Sixth" does not only indicate the number of the trumpet but also that it sounds after the fifth and before the seventh.
I have compared other translations and all give the same meaning.
Moreover, it is a scriptural problem because the apostle Paul, speaking precisely of this trumpet (that is, the one concerning the resurrection of the dead) he defines it "the last trumpet" - 1 Corinthians 15:52 (compare with Revelation 11: 15; 12: 1).

So if the seventh trumpet played in 1914, and it is the last one, this means that the other trumpets must have played previously.

Instead, if we simply read what is written, the trumpets are sequential (regardless of the start date you want to give) and eventually the "cups of the wrath of God" are sequential.
So the question is: if the seals, the trumpets and the cups are sequential (and we come up to chapter 16 of Revelation) with what logic can we say that the rest of the book is not in chronological order?
Thus, if we read the order of the events of Revelation of chapter 19, we understand exactly that "the rest of the dead did not come to life until (ie: until the moment in which") the thousand years are finished ".

Now start with the controversy as well.
For me, the Bible, it is the only authority.

 

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14 But a physical  ["logical?"] man

does not accept the things of the spirit of God,

for they are foolishness to him;

and he cannot get to know them,

because they are examined spiritually.

 

15 However, the spiritual man examines all things,

but he himself is not examined by any man.

 

16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah,

so that he may instruct him?

But we do have the mind of Christ.

 

– 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

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6 hours ago, DeeDee said:

14 But a physical  ["logical?"] man

does not accept the things of the spirit of God,

for they are foolishness to him;

and he cannot get to know them,

because they are examined spiritually.

 

15 However, the spiritual man examines all things,

but he himself is not examined by any man.

 

16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah,

so that he may instruct him?

But we do have the mind of Christ.

 

– 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

Dear DeeDee, for God the physical man is foolish but the whole Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach, to resume and to correct - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
The physical man is he who follows the desires of the flesh; not the one who uses his mental faculties - 1 Corinthians 14:20
It is not you who determines if I am "carnal" or "spiritual".
Whoever judges me is Jehovah.
Meanwhile, try to refute the arguments with the scriptures (without forcing them)

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14 hours ago, DeeDee said:

14 But a physical  ["logical?"] man

Dear Israeli Bar Avaddhon,

You are right about who judges, so you can rest assured that I was not speaking in judgment of you. You are obviously deeply using the magnificent gift that Jehovah has given us (the brain). It is one of my favorite gifts to use, as well. My only points were these:

  • Jehovah’s thoughts and reasonings may not seem “logical” to any human, not specifically to you, yourself.

  • You are trying to fit Jehovah’s thoughts into some “logical” timeframe.

  • Jehovah has placed the knowledge of “the times…in his own jurisdiction,” so it is not for us “to know the times.”

 

Isa. 55:8, 9

 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.

 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So my ways are higher than your ways

And my thoughts [are higher] than your thoughts.

 

Acts 6, 7

6 So when they had assembled, they asked him:

“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?

7 He said to them:

It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons

that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

 

As you will see from the Scriptures below, there will be no “try[ing] to refute the arguments.”

 

Prov. 20:3

It is honorable for a man to refrain from a dispute

 

Eccl. 6:11

The more words, the more futility;

and what advantage do they bring to man?

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On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 3:48 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Obviously someone will say that Revelation "is not written in chronological order" but this is not logical.

P.S. Maybe "this is not logical" to man...But no one can know "what is logical" to Jehovah.

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1 hour ago, DeeDee said:

using the magnificent gift that Jehovah has given us (the brain)

Jehovah has placed the knowledge of "times ... in his own jurisdiction", so it is not for us "to know the times."

My article has not talked about times. Only of scriptural logic.
Daniel had to study the Scriptures profoundly to understand how many years they would be prisoners of Babylon - Daniel 9: 2
Daniel did not know that "God has set the times in his authority"?

 

Isa. 55:8, 9

 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.

 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So my ways are higher than your ways

And my thoughts [are higher] than your thoughts.

 

I totally agree. Obviously, Jehovah, in his profound wisdom, made His Word written for us (small and limited) so that we could study it and take care of it - Acts 17:11

Acts 6, 7

6 So when they had assembled, they asked him:

“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?

7 He said to them:

It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons

that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

Did my article talk about times and seasons? spoke of Armageddon's date, perhaps?

 

Prov. 20:3

It is honorable for a man to refrain from a dispute

 

Am I doing some quarrel or am I trying to show what the scriptures say? - 2 Corinthians 10: 4
Perhaps, for you, "making a dispute" means re-discussing your beliefs? - Romans 12: 2
 

Eccl. 6:11

The more words, the more futility;

and what advantage do they bring to man?

 

Do the words of Ecclesiastes apply to speaking of God and the Word of God? So we should not talk about God? - Matthew 22:37, 38
Love for God urges us to talk about Him and His Word and this does not mean "making disputes".
If we have a belief that goes against the Scriptures, simply, instead of "making disputes", we must adapt to the Word of God.
My article, which quotes many scriptures, wants to push for reflection.
Obviously it is difficult for those who see disputes everywhere or believe they have understood everything can get back into question - Matthew 11:25, 26

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17 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

P.S. Maybe "this is not logical" to man...But no one can know "what is logical" to Jehovah.

That Revelation is not written in chronological order, you have established it. Jehovah did not establish it. I understand that it is easy to get confused.

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I do not understand some things that you are stating in you statement below...

I "have" not "established" whether OR NOT Revelation is "written in chronological order"...that is for Jehovah to know.

And what seems "logical" from Jehovah's point of view could seem completely "illogical" from man's point of view.

What confusion are you speaking about?

33 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

That Revelation is not written in chronological order, you have established it. Jehovah did not establish it. I understand that it is easy to get confused.

 

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I fully agree that something that may seem "illogical" to humans can be perfectly logical for Jehovah. Jehovah's thoughts are superior to those of man. Furthermore, Jehovah is the Creator and therefore knows everything perfectly.
However, the fact that Revelation "is not written in chronological order" who established it?
Have you read in the Bible "Revelation is not in chronological order"?
Who establishes it?
This has been established by some people in an absolutely arbitrary manner.
Nowhere if Revelation is written "not in chronological order" the most normal thing to do is to read the context carefully.

The seals of the scroll that the Lamb opens are sequential?
Or do you believe that He first opened the fifth (for example) and then the first?

Are the seven cups x of the wrath of God sequential or not?
The trumpets are sequential (exactly like seals and cups) and this is demonstrated not only by logic but also by Scripture.
In fact, the apostle Paul, speaking of the trumpet concerning the resurrection, calls it "the last trumpet" - 1 Corinthians 15:51

Is this true or am I inventing it?
If you go to read, in Revelation, when the last trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15) you will see that a few verses later, the Kingdom of God is born (Revelation 12: 1-6).

If the seventh trumpet is the "last trumpet", this means that other trumpets (ie trumpets ranging from 1 to 6) was before, is not it?

But the governing body says that the seventh trumpet sounds in 1914 (go to see chapter 26 of the book "Revelation its Grand Climax") while the fifth trumpet plays in 1919 (go to see chapter 22 of the book "Revelation its Grand Climax") while the sixth trumpet from 1922 onwards arrive until the assembly held in Toronto on July 24, 1927 (see chapter 23 of the same book).

Then the fifth trumpet plays in 1919, the sixth trumpet plays in 1922 and the seventh trumpet plays in 1914.
So not only is there no logic (the first four trumpets, in the same way, are in scattered order) but contradicts the words of Paul.
If the seventh trumpet sounds in 1914, then it is not "the last trumpet".

What I want to say is simple.
The book of Revelation may have been written in chronological order or in non-chronological order.
In any case, it is not "four people" who decide whether it is written in chronological order or not but the context.
The context makes us understand, whether we like it or not, that Revelation is written in chronological order.
This has nothing to do with "the thoughts of Jehovah".

Jehovah's thoughts are superior to ours and will always be superior but He has given the Bible to us to study it with care - Proverbs 2: 1-5

 

 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 5:34 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

it is not "four people" who decide whether it is written in chronological order or not but the context.

  

Thank you for explaining your thoughts. Now I understand your point. Your thought that Revelation is in chronological order might be right, or it might not be right… After all, “He… Gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those with discernment. He reveals the deep things and the hidden things…” (Daniel 2:21, 22) Daniel had been given knowledge of things that only he was made privy to. Perhaps due to your diligent study of Jehovah’s word, Jehovah has also done this in your situation.

 

Our unified understanding of Scripture has changed in the past. And it will continue to change so long as scriptural light grows brighter “until full daylight” (Proverbs 4:18). Only Jehovah knows for sure what order he means in Revelation. Whenever he wills that we ALL understand something he makes that understanding known to the F&DS, who then provides that food “at the proper time” to ALL of us (Matthew 24:45; Psalm 145:15).

 

Fortunately, whether or not Revelation is in chronological order has absolutely no effect on the Bible’s wonderful message to mankind. To be considered worthy to partake in that wonderful future that Jehovah promises us in that message, it is important that we continue to obey Jehovah and do his will. Since his will is that NO PERSON will be destroyed and ALL will attain to repentance, we need to do whatever is in our power to help others to come to know Jehovah’s love for them and to come to love him, as well (2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16).

 

When we love Jehovah, we never want to go against his will. That is why we never want to be the cause of “stumbling” to ANY person (Romans 4:13; 14:20; 16:17; 1 Corinthians 1:22, 23; 8:9; 10:31-33; 2 Corinthians 6:3; Philippians 1:9, 10; 1 John 2:9-11). Surely your diligent study and devotion to Jehovah’s word is bringing a large smile to Jehovah! May you keep yourself “in God’s Love”(Jude 21).

 

P.S. Note that the Scripture (Matthew 24:45) only promises that "FOOD" will be provided at the "PROPER TIME"...It does not claim that the food (knowledge) itself is "PERFECT" and "UNCHANGEABLE." There is every possibility that Jehovah will decide that there is a time in the FUTURE that will be the "PROPER TIME" for us ALL to understand something differently than we do at the PRESENT TIME.

 

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Thank you, DeeDee, for your kind and peaceful response.
In this way we should discuss the Word of God even if we did not agree on the interpretation.
I fully agree with you on some things.
Jehovah's wonderful message does not change and He wants none of us to be destroyed.

The good news of the Kingdom can be preached without having to "clash" on certain understandings.

However, I am deeply convinced that each of us personally has to make a careful study of the Word of God and this also includes an understanding of the prophecies - Proverbs 2: 1-5
Prophecy is not a secondary thing and should not be underestimated - 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 21

The Bible encourages us to make sure of everything and this responsibility does not have only the "faithful and discreet slave" but each one of us.

Moreover I would like to remember (and I do not want to make controversy) that the "slave" will be declared "faithful and discreet" only at the beginning of Armageddon (not before).
In this regard you can find the explanation in the Watchtower of July 15, 2013 (the first study article entitled "Tell us: when do these things happen?").
With this I do not want to say that what the governing body teaches "is all wrong". I have respect for those who have this important responsibility.

So this means that today there are sincere people who try to understand the Bible, but there is still no "faithful and discreet slave".
Surely this understanding will again be "modified" because it is too uncomfortable for some but it does not matter.

The Bible is clear in this regard: each of us must study carefully and meditate on the word of God.
This includes the fact that if you come to understand some things that are different from the official understanding, you must talk about it with respect.
This is what I'm trying to do.

Of course I can be wrong, like everyone else, so it is appropriate to have an open conversation in the light of the Scriptures without having preconceptions.

This does not mean "to stumble" someone because those who truly love God and His Word do not stumble - Psalm 119: 165
I am not saying that the Bible is not the Word of God, is not it?
I am not saying that Christ is not the Son of God.
I am not bringing another teaching.
These things could "stumble" but I have the utmost respect for the Word of God.

I have not dedicated myself to the "faithful and discreet slave" or even to a human organization.
I dedicated myself to Jehovah and the words of Jehovah are found exclusively in the Bible.

Those who love God try to understand His Will through His Word and do not remain waiting for "others" to do research in his place or to tell him what to believe and what not to believe.

So, concluding the speech, even if I partly share what you write about the hope and the good news of the Kingdom, if Revelation was written in chronological order, the question is not "secondary" at all.

This means that the times of fulfillment of certain prophecies are wrong (even some dates that we consider very important) and also certain subjects are completely different.

The most important thing, this would mean that our expectations for the future are not in harmony with the Word of God.
It also means that some prophecies could be fulfilled right now and we, focused on other things, do not realize it.

the prophecy "shines in a dark place" but have we really lent "more than the usual attention"? - 2 Peter 1:19, 20; Hebrews 2: 1
Or are we living on rent waiting for someone else to tell us what to believe and what to do?
Jehovah will judge us personally and not as a people.

I wish you to personally ascertain these things without "cheering for a team" because, as you can see, it is not very easy to talk about the Bible with the brothers.
The near future may be different from what we imagined.

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3 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

This does not mean "to stumble" someone because those who truly love God and His Word do not stumble - Psalm 119: 165
I am not saying that the Bible is not the Word of God, is not it?
I am not saying that Christ is not the Son of God.
I am not bringing another teaching.
These things could "stumble" but I have the utmost respect for the Word of God.

Maybe it is time to make peace with Israeli. True, I think he is a little full of himself, but that is not a crime. 

I just fret that there will one day be direction to go into the interior rooms and some will be like the sons of Lot, thinking a joke is being played..

I fret that someone might become like those characters who were searching the scriptures, thinking they could thereby secure  life, oblivious to Jesus standing right before them.

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Your fears are founded.
Also I think there's a risk that someone started to adore what was meant to be a medium. Like the copper snake.
Also I think that some people have started to depend entirely on some people, without doing research in the Word of God.

I think this will be useful to distinguish who really loves the Word of God (and therefore is able to get back into question) by those who love a human organization. Who likes to do accurate research and who, on the contrary, loves tranquility.
Those who love to dig into the Word of God and those who love to hear say "everything is fine." We do our research for you. "
I think it's "Better is the end of a matter than its beginning" and so we just have to wait.
In the meantime, we have the Bible with us.
Maybe someone will understand that "being Bereans" means carefully evaluating "IF things are really like that" and it is different from concluding, always and in any case, that "things are just like that".

But "things have to be so by force" otherwise you are an apostate or, if all goes well, a person full of yourself.

 

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Please Keep Awake! (Mark 13:33)…because idols come in many innocent and unsuspected forms. If we want to, we can recognize them by our complete adoration and obsession for the idol.

 

Satan is a Master of Distraction and likes nothing better than for Jehovah’s true worshippers to be distracted by idol worship. And he is SO cunning that he quite often “tricks” us into believing that we are NOT worshipping an idol at all! But Jehovah can see that Satan has truly deceived us and that we ARE worshipping the “idol” rather than him! We might say, “But it is a good thing that I am paying so much attention to this good thing.”

 

The fact is, Satan is gleeful because he has already won when we are no longer giving Jehovah our all, but are giving our all to something else. Satan blinds us so that we don’t even realize what has happened. It starts slowly…then gradually our extreme attention for the thing gets to the point of making that innocent thing an “idol.”

 

I speak from personal experience, because Satan has tricked me more times than I can count. And the “idol” can be as innocent and unsuspected as something like our diet or exercise or…

 

P.S. Satan is EXTREMELY SNEAKY and MEAN!!! He uses things that are good and “Light” as snares!

 

P.P.S. Since EVERY person who visits this website does not know and “truly love God,”

discretion is needed to not stumble “the other person.(1 Corinthians 10:24)

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7 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I think this will be useful to distinguish who really loves the Word of God (and therefore is able to get back into question) by those who love a human organization. Who likes to do accurate research and who, on the contrary, loves tranquility.

If I had to make a wild guess, I would say that you are 35 or younger and that you have pioneered at one time. You are obviously heady and have become impatient with those who are not. You are gifted in some areas but are not very well-rounded. "Full of yourself" was not an accurate nor kind description on my part. I'll take it back. I think you are hurt by your perception that many brothers seem a bit dull spiritually, and show little interest in what you are undeniably good at. Deep "research" you have found for many of them is just uncovering what the slave has said on this or that point and spitting it back to them. You would go deeper and you know that it is possible and not a bad thing in itself. It's not that you would reach your own conclusions over prophesy that is alarming. It is the fact you are so ready to judge those of greater years who have traditionally done it that is. Paul spoke of the 'pattern of healthful words.' Once you have the pattern, you can continue along those lines. You need not have every thought pre-thunk for you. But I fear this quick dismissal of headship is not the pattern that Paul speaks of. You needn't wait for them to think a thought before you think it. But denegrating them is another thing entirely. It is immodest, and that is among the reasons I take a stab that you are a younger man.

I would ask that you look at those verses like "if all were the head, where would the body be?" and "he gave some as this, some as that, some more as such-and-such with a view toward the building up...." Our people are too quick to acquiesce to headship, you say. They should roam around themselves more and not be content to be spoon-fed. My suggestion is that you accept that is the way people are - anywhere. Not all have the same gifts.

Not all are heady. In fact, most of our people are hands-on doers in this or that way - not heady. It's the way it is, Israeli. It is what Jehovah has given. Do not let your gift trip you up. Use it to build up and not tear down. Find that verse that tells us to regard the other person as superior to ourselves. Focus on it. How are they superior to you? Not in in-depth search of the scriptures, probably. You have bases well-covered there. Look for other areas in which they are superior and be instructed by them.

You say you really love the Word of God. i don't doubt it. Expand in how you love it. Expand at being a workman handling the word of truth aright - teaching it at the door & learning to love people so that you can be on the same wavelength as they to teach it. Notice the word used is "workman" That flavor is in all translations. They were builders and masons and handymen back then, just like today. They were not scholars. You are. Make it your gift that you bring to the altar. Don't count as inadequate those who bring different gifts. 

I would think you would be cheered by recent direction of Jehovah's Witnesses. Magazines will be but 6 a year, and then they will repeat. No more countenancing of those who fall into magazine placing. They are being nudged to improve (or learn) their teaching. Are there some who look to the jw.org logo almost like an idol, as some have charged?  'Keep your hands off it' is the impetus of the April article. Do some fawn over GB members and want selfies with them? 'Stop doing that,' they say. We don't take no selfies with nobody. They are aware of the problems you mention. They are moving in your direction

The C.O from our circuit was assigned the Warwick circuit next. So I razzed him to the effect "Now you are in trouble! You can razzle-dazzle we yokels here, but what will you ever do when you get there?" Through a friend I heard him about his new assignment. He was initially very uncomfortable playing circuit overseer before these ones. He felt inadequate. But he said that they are so very humble and unassuming that all that nervousness dissipated quickly. It is a type of report one hears frequently.

You misinterpret what you think is slavish devotion to them. They do nothing to exalt themselves as men and much to discourage it. What you missread is that not all persons are scholars. Or even thinkers. They have come out of a world where they perceived all is lie and spin and manipulation. They have discovered a source that they are convinced is not. They trust the source. They are not over-eager to dive back outside where again every word must be carefully weighed. They have other things to do. They want to get into the nitty-gritty of life and they do it, satisfied that the have the spiritual food base covered.

Let the entire Word of God and all theocratic arrangements mold you. Not just the parts you naturally take to. Look to the parts you don't and run them through your veins a few decades. It will make you complete and powerful over time. Don't chafe at the congregation. You are something that many of them are not. Learn that they have substantial gifts, too, and exert yourself to appreciate them more.

Am I close? Or did I miss by a mile? If it is the latter, it will not be the first time.

 

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56 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I would think you would be cheered by recent direction of Jehovah's Witnesses. Magazines will be but 6 a year, and then they will repeat. No more countenancing of those who fall into magazine placing

Also, I like the new system at our midweek meeting for "sample conversations" which will now be formatted to systematically develop one  Bible thought at a time, from the initial call trough to the first and second return visit.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We don't take no selfies with nobody.

Except Br. Lett. He loves selfies with the friends. I can attest to that as he was present at one of our circuit assemblies and my friend took one with him. There was a whole long line waiting to do the same thing. Ironically it was after one of those talks about Idol worship, or something like that. As we passed our friends, my husband and I said to each other loudly so they would hear "see those Idol worshipers". It's OK, they know us well and laughed. We like to rib people.

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Dear DeeDee,
I perfectly agree with what you write.
However, let's try to apply these your words to 360 degrees.
By nature, I often question myself but, as you can see, there are many people who are not able to do it.
The only weapon we have for not falling into Satan's deception is to study the Word of God carefully - Matthew 4: 5-7
Each of us can fall into error but whoever is able to call into question can try to fix that mistake.
But whoever is not able to do it (because you are an apostate if you try to re-discuss anything) then it is very easy to fall into Satan's deception.
it was the people of Israel who fell into error when they were convinced that "they had the Temple of God" and therefore they would be protected.
Does not it seem the same attitude that some have today?

The Israelites had the Temple and we have jw.org
The Israelites had the temple but we have "the faithful and discreet slave" that, as I pointed out in the Watchtower of 2013, is not yet declared "faithful and discreet".

Each of us can fall into error but at least distinguish between those who really study the Bible and those who study the Bible only if they do not have to contradict "the official understanding".
I share what you write, but we apply these words to 360 degrees.
Thank you

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Dear TrueTomHarley,
I focus on the most important words you wrote.
My criticism of the "governing body" has nothing to do with "lack of respect" or "denigration".
I do not understand why you have to confuse a (even strong) criticism with the lack of respect.

What we can not understand is that we have two different concepts of respect.
Always saying "yes, you're right" is a form of respect? Really?
Or is it a form of formal worship?

I have respect for those who have a great responsibility, but this does not mean that they have to recognize everything they say or do.
Finally it is a question of balance.
I try to explain the point.

In my study of the Bible I come to understand some things (maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong but in honest conscience).
As long as the interpretations of the governing body are secondary, I can also "make ends of nothing".
When some interpretations in my opinion (perhaps wrong) are not in harmony with the Scripture, what should I do?
According to you I should "shut up" because "they deserve respect".

My total and unconditional respect is addressed to the Word of God. it's clear?
This means that if a teaching goes against the Word of God (even if done in good faith) I give precedence to the Word of God.
I have dedicated myself to Jehovah, do you understand?
I have not dedicated myself to the "faithful and discreet slave", not to "jw.org" not to "warwick" or anyone else.

I have learned from the Bible that you must study personally and accurately, and you must draw your conclusions once you have meditated and prayed.
My conclusions (right or wrong) are that many brothers have become "idolaters" because they have elevated "commands of men" over the same Bible!

The things you wrote are true only in a small part.
I did not look for a probable idolatry and then find it in the Scriptures.
the opposite has happened.

To see that many brothers take a picture with the character of the governing body, or that they buy the medallion with the inscription "YHWH", or that they buy flags or t-shirts with the inscription "jw.org" it makes me sick (it's true ) but it does not make me stumble.

Do you know why I do not stumble over these things?
Because I had read in the Bible that this would happen.

I speak of biblical understanding.
mine is not "a protest" or a revolution.
Mine is exclusively a biblical research and my attempt is to bring attention to the Bible.

Also I would like to point out something.
speaking with DeeDee I wrote clearly (it's just an example) that the apostle Paul identifies the trumpet related to the spiritual resurrection as "the last trumpet".

I would be happy to have a conversation, without preconceptions, to understand if Revelation is written chronologically or not.
I have published many articles on this blog.
Has there ever been a constructive conversation?

Have we ever entered the subject in an attempt to understand what the Bible says?
Or have our "conversations" stopped at "you are not the faithful and discreet slave" or "are you an apostate" or "you can not have the biblical understanding" and similar things?

Who is the idolater?
Every day we are encouraged to "study the Bible" but what does this mean in your opinion?
Does it mean "study the Bible only if your conclusions are in harmony with the Governing Body"?
My personal experience counts for nothing and it is not because of my personal experience that I started making these articles.
On the contrary: these are my research without preconceptions, in the light of the Scriptures.

I consider the Bible the only authority and so you too.
However, there are other "authorities" that prevent you from carefully examining the Scriptures.
There are the "masters of the Law" who claim to be the only ones to understand it.
There are those who say "Yes is right" or "No, it's wrong".

Do you really believe that these articles of mine are "born" from the fact that I saw hypocrisy and idolatry in some brother?
Absolutely not.
Do you believe that I have "mounted my head"?
Absolutely not. Interpretations belong to Jehovah.
I do this because it is a responsibility.
Then, of course, you can believe what you want.
Some people (but I would dare to say "many") consider the guide (which is only a middle) as the ultimate end of worship.
The copper serpent was a loving provision by Jehovah that the people would not die but after a few years became an idol.

You are really sure that the medium that would lead us into the "promised land", did not become an idol?
You are free to think about what you want but when we turn off our faculties of perception and consider the words of men equal or superior to the Bible, this is idolatry.

Jesus, who was the most knowledgeable person ever existed, said many times "is written".
You say, practically always, "The faithful and discreet slave says" even if what he says strides with the Word of God.

Everyone makes their own assessments.
I am nobody and I can not judge anyone.
Jehovah is the just judge, only him.
If you are convinced of "studying the Bible without preconceptions", agree.
The right thing to do would be to help each other but this is not possible because every "criticism" is seen as "lack of respect".

 

 

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3 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

The right thing to do would be to help each other but this is not possible because every "criticism" is seen as "lack of respect"

You did not respond to any inquiries about your ministry.

Why don't you try the following? I stumbled across it once. It has transformed my ministry. Maybe it will help yours.

Say something like: "I'm hoping for a minute of your time, no more. I will read a scripture, you tell me what you think, and I am gone! Good idea?" (it may be rude to do this in countries where they insist on palaver, but the U.S. is not one of those countries)

If they say no, I am true to my word and leave. A surprising number will say yes - it is not much you have asked for and you have put a time limit on your own call.

Once you read whatever you've selected, add a sentence or two explaining why you read it. At this point, you have given a substantial witness. Punt. Say something like: "the next move is yours and you don't have to make one. If you have observations, questions, comments, we can talk a bit - that's why Witnesses come. Otherwise, thanks for you time, and I'll move on."

If you truly love the word of God and are suspicious of anything from men, I would think that you would love this technique. You may not like the following, but it is not required: If they indicate they can spare a few minutes, I will often start them a video, with the comment: "this runs almost 4 minutes, but you don't have to listen to it all. The minute it gets boring, hand it back." Some do, but not many.

The videos are not the last word on anything but they cover an important idea and develop it. You can then go anywhere you want. I often leave at that point, unless specifically asked to stay. I make use of the card a lot directing to the website. 

Full disclosure: I don't like most of the sample presentations I see enacted at the meetings trying to arouse interest in this or that magazine. I will be happy to see them go. It will mean more emphasis on actually teaching the Bible. 

I didn't read closely most of your dissertations on prophesy. This is not to disrespect you. But you could be hit by a truck tomorrow and then where would I be? It is not wrong for you to look deeply into aspects of God's word. It is even commendable. But you give the appearance, perhaps without intent, of setting yourself up as a teacher. It is immodest to do so. It is at least immodest to rebuke those who have a great deal to show for their stewardship. You didn't respond to my conjecture that you are a young man. I am therefore more convinced that you are - it shows between the lines. You can tell a lot by not just what someone says but also by what he does not say - places he does not go. A young man need not be told to "shut up." I don't think I have done that, though there may be something that can be taken out of context. 

But Elihu waited a long long time before addressing older ones who actually did need it. And Moses struck out to fix things, only to find his real contribution would not come for 40 years. And a young Jesus amazed his elders with his answers and with his own questions, not with his dissertations.  Even he did not just spout off before these older ones - he reserved that for later when he was better equipped and had grown and had actually accomplished something by way of kingdom preaching and disciple-making. 

I am a little worried that while you look deeply into aspects of God's Word, it is the whiz-bang cool passages you delve into. Spend more time delving into the ones less glamorous having to do with putting on the personality of the Christ. I say it not to put you down, but to ensure that your undeniable talent does not become a snare for you.

 

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Dear TrueTomHarley,
have you gone from criticizing my posts to get to give me advice on how to "put me better" in front of others?
Well, I thank you for this and I will take your advice to heart.
In the next article I will write I will only ask a series of questions. Can I count on your Scriptural answers?
I do not find myself indispensable and if I "end up under a truck", I am sure that other people (before me or after me, and perhaps better than me) would raise the same issues, the same "problems".
This is one more reason to focus on the contents of a speech and not on the person.

I agree with you that the most important thing is to be focused on the example of Christ. This is undoubtedly the most important and perhaps the most difficult thing to achieve.
I must point out that one aspect of Christ's personality (among many other aspects) was love for the Word of God.
I do not think I have "arrived" or even a "right" person.
I have so many things that I must improve and what I have understood (if I have understood it) is thanks exclusively to the undeserved kindness of God.
Also for this reason I feel like my duty to speak to my brothers, despite the difficulties and criticisms, of these things.
I believe that it is very important.

I thank you for the Scriptural examples you mentioned and I thank you sincerely for the concern you show towards me.
I assure you that I take great care not to become a victim of my own speeches.
I question myself very often.
Simply, my love for the Word of God urges me to look for answers in the Bible, only in the Bible.
If I am convinced through the Scriptures that certain of my conclusions are wrong, I assure you that I change immediately and even everything.

I have no interest, no one, to make me followers.
If you have an important message to give to people, you try to do it, is not it?
You try to give this message even if you know it will be "hard to accept" is not it?
I assure you that I would have spared many "headaches" if I had avoided writing certain things.
it is much easier to "keep quiet" than to start certain conversations.

So I thank you very much for your advice on how to start a conversation.
I will take these advice to heart but I will continue to talk about the things I have understood because this is true respect for the Word of God.
And indeed I encourage all those who read this message to participate in the conversation not "to cheer a team" nor starting from the principle to establish "who is right" but only with the aim of better understanding some prophecies of the Word of God.
And, be it clear, this also includes the possibility of having to accept (only the possibility) some truths that are very different from those that have been taught to us.
To accept, one must be mature.
Thanks again, TrueTomHarley, and so I hope I can start a frank and respectful conversation only with the Word of God.

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Reading Revelation, it is clear on the order, just as you put Israeli. 

Verse 1&2, tells us the angel seizing Satan and placing him in an abyss for a period of a 1000 yrs.  Afterwhich he is let loose. Now while he is gone, are you saying we are on our own, without any rule from the heavenly Government during his absence? The next verse 4), thrones for the 144,000 are placed; and the remnant from earth would have to go to be seated on them at this time, correct? Having gained immortality, death has no sting, as Paul put it at 1 Corinthians 15:55. These 'holy ones' have no final test to go through, right? Verse 5), says that the rest, who could that mean? Only could refer to those humans alive at the end of Satan's final test; these will have gained life, where again Paul's words have true meaning at 1 Corinthians 15:26, this would be true for all of us then. When Satan is released, that coincides with what is written at 1 Corinthians 15:24,25, when Christ has ended sin and imperfection in humans and on this planet. Genesis 1:26 will be done as purposes by Jehovah. Satan will be loosed on a global Eden, with a planet full of Adam and Eve's, perfect without need of a mediator. Some though will follow after him, as John wrote 'nations of the four corners' and this evil, its master and followers will be destroyed, forever. Now how if in you scenario, after Satan is destroyed, dead ones are raised, not being educated from the scrolls, not worshipping shoulder to shoulder, using the pure language of obedience to Jehovah's sovereignty?

 

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@Israeli Bar Avaddhon, As you already know, I disagree with some of your conclusions, but I love the fact that you want to have lively, vibrant conversations about Biblical matters. And, to be fair, I have not yet taken the time to explain why I disagree with your conclusions, so I'm glad you are still around. Still, the kind of discussions you are fostering are of the type that true Bible Students have always enjoyed. It's not for everyone, of course. As you say, some like "tranquility." Hope some of these ideas become "settled" for you.

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6 minutes ago, John Houston said:

says that the rest, who could that mean?

Dear John Houston,
I can hardly understand what you have written.
Unfortunately my English is not good.
I want to isolate a sentence that I may have understood.
Perhaps your objection is: "If the dead are resurrected after the destruction of Satan, what will they be judged? What proof will they have?".
it's correct?

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Verse 11, John wrote, 'And I saw' he did after the fact, this is another totally different vision. Using your reasoning, though, what happens to the heaven and the earth? In order? Because now should I believe my actions now in my life follow me after I die? What actions of the dead are they being judged by, if indeed scripture teaches us that the dead have no works or actions in the Grave? As Matthew writes, 'let the reader use discernment'. If we are going to do deep personal study, we have to have astute practical discernment, and not do it alone. Jesus told us to gather together, not alone, remember his words at Matthew 18:19,20?

Those trumpets in Revelation, the last one, or final one, did come as Paul stated. During which the anointed were resurrected, and all others would be changed in a twinkling of an eye to immortal life in heaven.

i have been at this for some 50yrs., there have been many revisions on many subjects, and studying has helped. Those visions chapters 15:1--16:21, is what is considered the  10th vision of this book. And 18:1---19:10 is the 12th vision, 19:11-21, is another vision. There is no controversy that goes with research of God's word and I agree with in is the final authority.

 

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20 minutes ago, John Houston said:

Now how if in you scenario, after Satan is destroyed, dead ones are raised, not being educated from the scrolls, not worshipping shoulder to shoulder, using the pure language of obedience to Jehovah's sovereignty?

John, Excellent point!

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8 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

have you gone from criticizing my posts to get to give me advice on how to "put me better" in front of others?

Yes.

8 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

In the next article I will write I will only ask a series of questions. Can I count on your Scriptural answers?

Probably not. I go where I go. So I may or may not. The trick is to not let yourself be cross-examined.

Even if I thought I could knock it out of the park, I would refrain. The GB consistently says 'do not tell them what you think - all you can do thereby is make them a disciple of yourself. Direct them to what the Bible teaches.' They say this to publishers with regard to addressing the public. They say it to elders with regard to addressing the publishers. I don't want to set myself up as an instructor or make disciples for myself. If I succeeded, I assure you the novelty would soon wear off.

18 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Thanks again, TrueTomHarley, and so I hope I can start a frank and respectful conversation only with the Word of God.

You are welcome. It is well intended. You probably will not succeed in doing the latter. I respect the GB's counsel to not set up online study groups, because of their tendency to promote the sects that Paul deplores in the first chapter of 1 Corinthians. Even on this forum - you may have noticed, though I admit it in the eye of the beholder - I do not get myself mixed up with that sort of thing. There are flavors of participation; I try not to go there. 

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Thank you.
Perhaps I understood your objection (at least part of your objection).
The writing says that "thrones were placed to judge the dead" - Revelation 20: 4
In the meantime, no one has said that "we are left to the betrayal" for a thousand years because these thrones are put exclusively to judge the dead.

Obviously the elect are elected a long time before (to the sound of the 7° trumpet, in fact). They will be "kings and priests" and they will lead the people of God from Armageddon onwards.
As you can see, there is no contradiction in this.
What will the dead be judged on?
This question, unfortunately, starts with an incorrect intention.
Does death really erase sins?
The point is exactly this.
Will the dead be judged by what they "do" (future) or what they will do when they were alive?
This topic was discussed here https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/47137-does-death-really-erase-sins/

If we take the arguments one by one, you will see that there is no contradiction.
Obviously I do not expect you to give the reason.
I expect you to compare the Scriptures without preconceptions
Thank you

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12 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Does death really erase sins?
The point is exactly this.
Will the dead be judged by what they "do" (future) or what they will do when they were alive?

God's word says "the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin." (Romans 6:7)

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2 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

God's word says "the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin." (Romans 6:7)

Just now, DeeDee said:

 

Dear DeeDee, I know this writing and I also know its context.
Do you know the context well?
Since this topic has already been discussed, perhaps you should take the time to read what has been written, is not it?
Try reading what has been written.
Rate the scriptures and then give me your objection

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La morte cancella davvero i peccati?
 
Una conseguenza del fatto che la risurrezione avviene alla fine del millennio sta chiedendo la questione di quali basi saranno giudicati risorto .
Finora c'è stato insegnato che il risorto sarebbe giudicato in base a quello che avrebbero fatto dopo la loro resurrezione , che è, per un lungo periodo nel regno di Cristo.
L'apostolo Paolo ha detto una volta ... "Io ho in Dio la speranza ... che ci sarà una risurrezione sia dei giusti che degli ingiusti" - Atti 24:15
Perché Paolo nutriva la speranza che ci fosse una resurrezione per gli ingiusti che, se fossero stati giudicati solo dalle loro azioni passate, avrebbe poi ucciso?
Probabilmente questi "rotoli" conterrà molti dettagli della vita delle persone e magari aggiungerà le istruzioni dettagliate su come procedere, valutare e mitigare le cause, ed è ragionevole credere che ci potrebbe essere anche un momento di prova per almeno alcuni dei loro.
Noi non abbiamo particolari su di esso, ma Geova è il giudice giusto e sicuramente farà in modo che tutte le persone degne hanno la possibilità di vivere ed essere felici - Confronta Matteo 10:15 e Luca 10:13, 14
Tuttavia, il libro biblico di Rivelazione insegna che la risurrezione avverrà alla fine del millennio e non durante, e quindi dobbiamo accettare le Scritture.
La scrittura è detto che il resto dei morti non tornò in vita finché i mille anni non furono finiti - Rivelazione 20: 5
" Fino a quando" significa "fino al momento in cui" e non "durante" e ciò sembrerebbe suggerire che questi mille anni, eletti avrebbe regnato sui sopravvissuti di Armageddon e le loro famiglie, ma non su qualsiasi risorto.
Lo stesso termine, "lungo" usata in Matteo 1:25, abbiamo sempre usato per dimostrare, ai sostenitori della verginità di Maria, Giuseppe non ha avuto rapporti sessuali con la moglie fino alla nascita del bambino (e questo indica che dopo questa nascita di Maria e Joseph consumato il matrimonio come qualsiasi altra coppia di sposi).
Questo dovrebbe essere sufficiente a dimostrare che la resurrezione avverrà dopo la fine del millennio , un concetto che sembra essere ripetuto nei versetti 12 e 13.
Se questo è corretto, come dovremmo comprendere le parole di Paolo descritti in Romani 6: 7 che "colui che è morto è stato assolto dai suoi peccati"?
Se la morte è stato assolto dal peccato ... perché allora è stato giudicato nel Giorno del Giudizio, e la risurrezione, secondo le cose scritte nei rotoli?
Questa apparente contraddizione ha portato a pensare che il giorno del giudizio sarebbe avvenuto in realtà in tutto il regno millenario di Cristo e verrà giudicato su quello che la gente avrebbe fatto in questo periodo .
La durata del regno di Cristo sarebbe in armonia con il concetto di "giorno" espresso nelle Scritture - II Pietro 3: 8
 
 
 
La morte cancella veramente peccato?
Tuttavia, analizzando il contesto di Romani capitolo 6 non è chiaro a tutti che il giudizio non si verifica in base a quanto è stato fatto quando era vivo.
Paolo, infatti, parlando della Unto dice che "è morto con riferimento al peccato" e che sono stati battezzati nella morte di Cristo.
Dice anche che sono stati "sepolti con lui" di battesimo e che il battesimo costituivano, in effetti, una "novità di vita."
E 'chiaro che Paolo sta usando un linguaggio figurativo perché nessun cristiano, unto o no, è sepolto con Cristo .
In altre parole, sembra che Paolo sta dicendo che solo non peccare più, che sta dimostrando di essere morto sulla vita precedente peccaminosa e dimostrando fede nel sacrificio di riscatto di Cristo , è libero dal giudizio.
Il versetto 8 dice anche "siamo morti con Cristo" e "crediamo che anche vivremo con lui," ma ovviamente Paolo non era veramente morto, o con Cristo o per chiunque altro.
Lui e molti altri erano morti rispetto alla vita di prima e ora vissuto una "vita nuova".
Avendo deciso di essere morto dalla vita precedente lui e gli altri erano stati "liberati dal loro peccato."
Questo è in armonia con le parole di Gesù quando ha detto che coloro che vorrebbero ascoltare la sua parola e esercitato fede in lui non sarebbe andato a processo - Giovanni 5:24
Inoltre, se il peccato la morte è stata annullata, come dovremmo comprendere le parole di Rivelazione 06:10?
In questa scrittura si parla delle anime dei giusti che chiedono di essere rivendicato, ma si presume che gli autori di questi cristiani sono morti da tempo.
Se la morte il peccato degli autori si è spenta ... su quali basi si può gridare vendetta? E chi dovrebbe vendicarsi questa vendetta se non ci sono più peccatori? Anche altri scritti aiutano a far luce su questo aspetto.
Facendo riferimento a quelle città che non avrebbe sentito il messaggio, Gesù disse che il giorno del giudizio sarebbe più sopportabile per Sodoma e Gomorra che per loro - Matteo 10:14, 15; Matteo 11: 20-24
Perché sarebbe più "tollerabile" per Sodoma e Gomorra o Tiro e Sidone, anche se il peccato la morte sarebbe stato annullato e la risurrezione sarebbe tutto di nuovo da zero?
Nello stesso principio si può ragionare su ciò che viene detto in Apocalisse 14:13.
La scrittura si riferisce a cristiani e dice: "Beati i morti ... perché le cose che hanno fatto andare a destra con loro."
Se le cose buone vengono conservate in memoria di Geova anche dopo la morte, non è ragionevole credere che questo accade per il resto?
Matteo 12:36 dice: "Io vi dico che di ogni parola inutile che gli uomini hanno detto renderanno conto nel giorno del giudizio."
Se leggiamo solo ciò che è scritto senza cercare interpretazioni articolate, si capisce che "hanno detto" è il passato, naturalmente, riferendosi a quanto è stato detto in questa vita e non ciò che potrebbe significare per il futuro (in effetti, Gesù ha è condannando i farisei che hanno appena affermato che lui guidare i demoni per Beelzebub).
Di questo si sono resi conto nel giorno del giudizio.
In Matteo 23: 33-36 Gesù condanna la nazione di Israele, in particolare gli scribi ei farisei per la loro ipocrisia e la violenza e dice "che è in voi tutto il sangue giusto sparso sulla terra, dal sangue del giusto Abele fino al sangue di Zaccaria figlio di Barachia, che si assassinaste tra il santuario e l'altare. "
Come si può chiedere il sangue di Abele e di tutti coloro che sono morti in seguito, se i loro assassini erano morti e poi diventare senza peccato?
In 2 Timoteo 4:14 l'apostolo Paolo disse: "Alessandro il ramaio, mi ha portato molto male -. Geova gli renderà secondo le sue opere"
Geova avrebbe fatto secondo le sue opere quando?
Prima della sua morte, cioè, nel primo secolo?
Forse Geova intervenne per punire tutti i persecutori dei cristiani nel primo secolo?
Non è forse chiaro che l'apostolo Paolo dice che Geova avrebbe ricordato le opere di questo Alessandro sul Giorno del Giudizio?
Da questi scritti è chiaro che la morte non cancella automaticamente il peccato, ma farà solo del giudizio di Geova - Confronta Rivelazione 18: 5
Come Romani 6:23 dice che il salario che il peccato paga è la morte, e così, anche se la morte ripagare il debito, hanno bisogno di rimanere nella morte .
Ciò significa che la loro eventuale resurrezione, tuttavia, dovrebbe rispondere per i loro peccati, perché, in effetti, non sono rimasti in quelle condizioni.
In realtà la parola "salario" e "paga" si inseriscono perfettamente in questo concetto.
Se a causa dei miei debiti ho dovuto vendere la mia proprietà (in modo da ripagare i miei debiti) non può riprendere quello che ho venduto.
Se i riprendere i soldi che ho venduto la proprietà solo per sradicare quel debito , sarei tornato in debito.
L'unico modo per recuperare le proprietà in modo lecito è che qualcuno paga invece di darmi indietro le proprietà .
In realtà la scrittura di Romani 6:23 si conclude con le parole ... "ma il dono che dà Dio è la vita eterna in Cristo Gesù, nostro Signore."
Cristo ha pagato il debito per noi, che ci permette di non rimanere la morte o restituire la vita che avevamo perso legalmente - Confronta Matteo 18: 23-27
Tuttavia, questo sembra suggerire che il Giorno del Giudizio non significherà automaticamente la distruzione dei peccatori, ed è probabilmente un caso che Gesù ha usato la parola "orso" - Matteo 10:15
Armonizzando le parole di Paolo, che nutriva la speranza che ci sarebbe stata una risurrezione sia dei giusti che degli ingiusti, si può supporre che si tratterà di un periodo che governa, in casi estremi porterà alla morte definitiva, mentre tutti gli altri saranno consistere in un periodo di prova, più o meno lungo e più o meno duro, che avrà lo scopo di raggiungere la salvezza - Confronta Matteo 05:25, 26
Ci sono molte indicazioni su di esso e poi non vanno al di là di ciò che è scritto, ma in realtà il libro dell'Apocalisse chiarisce che la risurrezione avverrà alla fine del millennio (non durante), e che le persone saranno giudicati su quello che si sono trovati scritto.
Come si pesano i singoli peccati di ogni individuo non è noto, ma siamo grati che Cristo Gesù per giudicare e non un semplice uomo!
Egli è l'immagine di Dio, possiamo essere sicuri che il suo giudizio sarà giusto e retto - Deuteronomio 32: 4; Giovanni 5:21, 22; 08:15, 16

Una cosa è chiara come bene.
È la morte per cancellare il peccato o è il sacrificio di Cristo?

Altre informazioni è venuto fuori nella conversazione mostrato qui

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/47137-does-death-really-erase-sins/

Per favore non rispondere dopo 5 minuti perché sarà chiaro che non avete letto le Scritture.

 

 

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Death really erases the sins?
 
One consequence of the fact that the resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium is asking the question of what basis will be judged resurrected .
So far we have been taught that the resurrected would be judged based on what they would do after their resurrection , that is, over a long period in the kingdom of Christ.
The apostle Paul once said ... "I have hope toward God ... that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous" - Acts 24:15
Because Paul harbored the hope that there was a resurrection for the unjust who, if they were only judged by their past actions, would then killed?
Probably these "rolls" will contain many details of the life of people and perhaps will add detailed instructions on how to proceed, evaluating and mitigating the causes, and it is reasonable to believe that there might also be a probationary time for at least some of them.
We have no particular about it, but Jehovah is the Righteous Judge and certainly will make sure that all those worthy have a chance to live and be happy - Compare Matthew 10:15 and Luke 10:13, 14
However, the Bible book of Revelation teaches that the resurrection will occur at the end of the millennium and not during, and so we must acquiesce to the Scriptures.
The writing is said that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were not finished - Revelation 20: 5
" As long as" means "up to the moment when" and not "during" and this would appear to suggest that these thousand years, elected would reign on the survivors of Armageddon and their families but not on any resurrected.
The same term, "long" used in Matthew 1:25, we always used to demonstrate, to supporters of virginity of Mary, Joseph had no intercourse with his wife until the birth of the child (and this indicates that after this birth Mary and Joseph consummated marriage as any other married couple).
This should be enough to prove that the resurrection will occur after the end of the millennium , a concept that seems to be repeated in verses 12 and 13.
If this is correct, how should we understand the words of Paul described in Romans 6: 7 that "he who has died has been acquitted from their sins"?
If the death has been absolved from sin ... why then it was judged on the Day of Judgment, or the resurrection, according to the things written in the scrolls?
This apparent contradiction has led to think that the Day of Judgment would take place in reality throughout the millennial reign of Christ and will be judged on what people would have done during this period .
The duration of the kingdom of Christ would be in harmony with the concept of "day" expressed in the Scriptures - II Peter 3: 8
 
Death erases really sin?
However, analyzing the context of Romans chapter 6 it is not clear at all that the Judgment does not occur on the basis of what has been done when he was alive.
Paul, in fact, speaking of the anointed says he "died with reference to sin" and who were baptized into Christ's death.
He also says that they were "buried with him" by baptism and that baptism constituted, in effect, a "newness of life."
It 'clear that Paul is using figurative language because no Christian, anointed or not, is buried with Christ .
In other words it seems that Paul is saying that only sin no more, that is proving to be dead about life previous sinful and demonstrating faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ , it is free from judgment.
Verse 8 also says "we have died with Christ" and "we believe that we shall also live with him" but of course Paul was not really dead, or with Christ or to anyone else.
He and several others had died compared to their previous life and now lived a "newness of life".
Having decided to be dead from the previous life he and the others had been "delivered from their sin."
This is in harmony with the words of Jesus when he said that those who would listen to his word and exercised faith in Him would not go to trial - John 5:24
Also, if the death sin was canceled, how should we understand the words of Revelation 6:10?
In this scripture it speaks of the souls of the just who apply to be vindicated, but it is assumed that the perpetrators of these Christians have died long ago.
If the death the sin of the perpetrators has been extinguished ... on what basis can they cry out revenge? And who should retaliate this revenge if there are no more sinners? Even other writings help to shed light on this aspect.
Referring to those cities who would not have heard the message, Jesus said that on the Day of Judgment would be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for them - Matthew 10:14, 15; Matthew 11: 20-24
Why it would be more "tolerable" for Sodom and Gomorrah O Tire and Sidon, though the death sin would be canceled and the resurrection would all again from scratch?
In the same principle we can reason about what is said in Revelation 14:13.
The writing refers to Christians and says, "Happy are the dead ... because the things they did go right with them."
If good things are retained in Jehovah's memory even after death, it is not reasonable to believe that this happens for the rest?
Matthew 12:36 says, "I tell you that every word unprofitable that men have said give account on the Day of Judgment."
If we read only what is written without trying articulated interpretations, you understand that "have said" is the past, of course, referring to what has been said in this life and not what they could mean in the future (in fact, Jesus He is condemning the Pharisees who have just asserted that he drive out demons by Beelzebub).
Of this they realized the Day of Judgment.
In Matthew 23: 33-36 Jesus condemns the nation of Israel, especially the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy and violence and says "that is on you all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you assassinaste between the sanctuary and the altar. "
How could anyone ask for the blood of Abel and of all those who died later if their murderers were dead and then become sinless?
In 2 Timothy 4:14 the apostle Paul said, "Alexander the coppersmith has brought me much evil - Jehovah will repay him according to his works."
Jehovah would have made according to his works when?
Before his death, that is, in the first century?
Perhaps Jehovah intervened to punish all the persecutors of Christians in the first century?
Is it not clear that the apostle Paul is saying that Jehovah would remember the works of this Alessandro on Judgment Day?
From these writings it is clear that death does not automatically delete the sin but I will only do the Jehovah's Judgment - Compare Revelation 18: 5
As Romans 6:23 says the wages sin pays is death, and so, even if the death repay the debt, they need to remain in death .
This means that their eventual resurrection, however, should answer for their sins because, indeed, have not remained in that condition.
In fact the word "salary" and "pays" fit perfectly into this concept.
Death really erases the sins?
 
One consequence of the fact that the resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium is asking the question of what basis will be judged resurrected .
So far we have been taught that the resurrected would be judged based on what they would do after their resurrection , that is, over a long period in the kingdom of Christ.
The apostle Paul once said ... "I have hope toward God ... that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous" - Acts 24:15
Because Paul harbored the hope that there was a resurrection for the unjust who, if they were only judged by their past actions, would then killed?
Probably these "rolls" will contain many details of the life of people and perhaps will add detailed instructions on how to proceed, evaluating and mitigating the causes, and it is reasonable to believe that there might also be a probationary time for at least some of them.
We have no particular about it, but Jehovah is the Righteous Judge and certainly will make sure that all those worthy have a chance to live and be happy - Compare Matthew 10:15 and Luke 10:13, 14
However, the Bible book of Revelation teaches that the resurrection will occur at the end of the millennium and not during, and so we must acquiesce to the Scriptures.
The writing is said that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were not finished - Revelation 20: 5
" As long as" means "up to the moment when" and not "during" and this would appear to suggest that these thousand years, elected would reign on the survivors of Armageddon and their families but not on any resurrected.
The same term, "long" used in Matthew 1:25, we always used to demonstrate, to supporters of virginity of Mary, Joseph had no intercourse with his wife until the birth of the child (and this indicates that after this birth Mary and Joseph consummated marriage as any other married couple).
This should be enough to prove that the resurrection will occur after the end of the millennium , a concept that seems to be repeated in verses 12 and 13.
If this is correct, how should we understand the words of Paul described in Romans 6: 7 that "he who has died has been acquitted from their sins"?
If the death has been absolved from sin ... why then it was judged on the Day of Judgment, or the resurrection, according to the things written in the scrolls?
This apparent contradiction has led to think that the Day of Judgment would take place in reality throughout the millennial reign of Christ and will be judged on what people would have done during this period .
The duration of the kingdom of Christ would be in harmony with the concept of "day" expressed in the Scriptures - II Peter 3: 8
    Hello guest!
Death erases really sin?
However, analyzing the context of Romans chapter 6 it is not clear at all that the Judgment does not occur on the basis of what has been done when he was alive.
Paul, in fact, speaking of the anointed says he "died with reference to sin" and who were baptized into Christ's death.
He also says that they were "buried with him" by baptism and that baptism constituted, in effect, a "newness of life."
It 'clear that Paul is using figurative language because no Christian, anointed or not, is buried with Christ .
In other words it seems that Paul is saying that only sin no more, that is proving to be dead about life previous sinful and demonstrating faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ , it is free from judgment.
Verse 8 also says "we have died with Christ" and "we believe that we shall also live with him" but of course Paul was not really dead, or with Christ or to anyone else.
He and several others had died compared to their previous life and now lived a "newness of life".
Having decided to be dead from the previous life he and the others had been "delivered from their sin."
This is in harmony with the words of Jesus when he said that those who would listen to his word and exercised faith in Him would not go to trial - John 5:24
Also, if the death sin was canceled, how should we understand the words of Revelation 6:10?
In this scripture it speaks of the souls of the just who apply to be vindicated, but it is assumed that the perpetrators of these Christians have died long ago.
If the death the sin of the perpetrators has been extinguished ... on what basis can they cry out revenge? And who should retaliate this revenge if there are no more sinners? Even other writings help to shed light on this aspect.
Referring to those cities who would not have heard the message, Jesus said that on the Day of Judgment would be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for them - Matthew 10:14, 15; Matthew 11: 20-24
Why it would be more "tolerable" for Sodom and Gomorrah O Tire and Sidon, though the death sin would be canceled and the resurrection would all again from scratch?
In the same principle we can reason about what is said in Revelation 14:13.
The writing refers to Christians and says, "Happy are the dead ... because the things they did go right with them."
If good things are retained in Jehovah's memory even after death, it is not reasonable to believe that this happens for the rest?
Matthew 12:36 says, "I tell you that every word unprofitable that men have said give account on the Day of Judgment."
If we read only what is written without trying articulated interpretations, you understand that "have said" is the past, of course, referring to what has been said in this life and not what they could mean in the future (in fact, Jesus He is condemning the Pharisees who have just asserted that he drive out demons by Beelzebub).
Of this they realized the Day of Judgment.
In Matthew 23: 33-36 Jesus condemns the nation of Israel, especially the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy and violence and says "that is on you all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you assassinaste between the sanctuary and the altar. "
How could anyone ask for the blood of Abel and of all those who died later if their murderers were dead and then become sinless?
In 2 Timothy 4:14 the apostle Paul said, "Alexander the coppersmith has brought me much evil - Jehovah will repay him according to his works."
Jehovah would have made according to his works when?
Before his death, that is, in the first century?
Perhaps Jehovah intervened to punish all the persecutors of Christians in the first century?
Is it not clear that the apostle Paul is saying that Jehovah would remember the works of this Alessandro on Judgment Day?
From these writings it is clear that death does not automatically delete the sin but I will only do the Jehovah's Judgment - Compare Revelation 18: 5
As Romans 6:23 says the wages sin pays is death, and so, even if the death repay the debt, they need to remain in death .
This means that their eventual resurrection, however, should answer for their sins because, indeed, have not remained in that condition.
In fact the word "salary" and "pays" fit perfectly into this concept.
If because of my debts I had to sell my property (so paying back my debts) can not take back what I sold.
If i resuming the money I sold the property just to eradicate that debt , I would be back in debt.
The only way to recover those properties in a lawful is that someone pay instead of me giving me back the properties .
In fact the writing of Romans 6:23 ends with the words ... "but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."
Christ paid the debt for us, allowing us to not remain in death or giving back the life that we had legally lost - Compare Matthew 18: 23-27
However this seems to suggest that the Day of Judgment will not automatically mean the destruction of sinners, and it is probably no coincidence that Jesus used the word "bear" - Matthew 10:15
By harmonizing the words of Paul, who harbored the hope that there would be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous, we can assume that it will be a period which governs, in extreme cases will lead to ultimate death, while everyone else will consist in a probationary period, more or less long and more or less hard, which will aim to achieve salvation - Compare Matthew 5:25, 26
There are many indications about it and then we do not go beyond what is written but in fact the book Revelation makes it clear that the resurrection will occur at the end of the millennium (not during), and that people will be judged on what you You are found written.
How they will weigh the individual sins of each individual is not known, but we are grateful that Christ Jesus to judge and not a simple man!
He being the image of God, we can be sure that his judgment will be just and right - Deuteronomy 32: 4; John 5:21, 22; 8:15, 16

Let's try to address this question too.
Is death to eliminate sin or is it the sacrifice of Christ?

More information came out in the conversation shown here

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/47137-does-death-really-erase-sins/

Please do not respond after 5 minutes because it will be clear that you have not read the scriptures.

 

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14 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I will take these advice to heart but I will continue to talk about the things I have understood because this is true respect for the Word of God.

 

 

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 5:26 PM, DeeDee said:

P.S. Satan is EXTREMELY SNEAKY and MEAN!!! He uses things that are good and “Light” as snares!

 

Dear Israeli,

You remind me of me when I was young…

My deep desire to learn the truth made me fall dangerously into one of Satan’s snares.

He used my desire to learn the truth to take me away from God, before I ever got to know Jehovah.

Thank God Jehovah gathered me back into his arms.

You have great love for “the WORD” of God.

But remember what Jesus said:

 

     “‘You MUST LOVE JEHOVAH your God

            with your whole heart and with your whole soul

            and with your WHOLE MIND.’

     This is the GREATEST and FIRST commandment. (Matt. 22:37, 38)

 

Trust in Jehovah and do what is good…

     Find exquisite delight IN JEHOVAH,

And he will grant you the desires of your heart. (Psalm 37:3, 4)

 

Trust in Jehovah with all your heart,

     And do not rely on your own understanding.

In all your ways take notice of him,

     And he will make your paths straight.

 Do not become wise in your own eyes… (Prov. 3:5-7)

 

Please…NEVER underestimate just how sneaky and cunning Satan is…

He truly is “like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.” (1 Pet. 5:8)

…especially someone who love’s Jehovah and the truth as much as you do.

 

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You did not respond to any inquiries about your ministry.

Here is a thought…

Think of how happy Jehovah will be if you devote some of you study time to focusing on how you can bring the truth about Jehovah to another honest-hearted person who does not yet know Jehovah. If someone had not done that for me, I would never have gotten to know Jehovah and would be among those who will be destroyed!

Maybe helping to save someone's life would bring you even greater joy!!!

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Dear DeeDee,
I thank you, of course, for your concern and your advice.
Meanwhile, I want to tell you that I'm not a young man.
I am not less than 35 years old.
I have been baptized for 27 years (so, as you can imagine, I did not get baptized at age 8).
I did not want to answer the question "if I was under 35" because this question distracts from the content of the articles.
I want the attention to be placed on the contents and on the Scriptures of the articles and not on the person who writes.

If all the talk is put on "You are young, you are inexperienced", then you lose the importance of the topic.

However, that I have 20 years or 50 or 99 concepts do not change.

My words do not become "right" or more "wrong" according to my age.
The only thing we need to understand is whether they are in harmony with the Bible or not.
The Bible was written for young people and also for older people.

You have made a correct quotation: we must love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
But I would like to ask you a question: where do we learn about the personality of God?
Through what we learn to know God better?
Through what do we learn about God's way of thinking and acting?

We learn all this through the Bible, it's true?
I want to ask you another question.
Can we honestly say that we love God if we do not love His Word?

Is not this concept the same reproach we make to the people of the world?
In field service we often meet devoted people who say they love God.
It's not true?
What objection do we make to these people?
"Whoever loves God, strives to know him better".
Or "He who loves God manages to overcome his own traditions and convictions if they are not in harmony with the Word of God".

We must also make an honest critique and ask ourselves if we ourselves, ourselves, have not become the victim of a tradition or of prejudice - compare Romans 2:21, 22; 2 Corinthians 13: 5

Finally the scriptures you mentioned I could mention them too, is not it?
I have full confidence in Jehovah.
If I relied on my intelligence, then I would not consult the Bible.

If I relied on my intelligence I would not look for answers in the Bible, do you think?
I would simply do what I want, without doing research in the Bible, without meditating, without praying.
Does it seem to you that what I have written up to now has not referred to the Bible?
Of course I can be wrong, like all human beings.

However, I invite you to reflect that you have not read the article I posted to you (the one titled "Death really cancels sin").
Or maybe you read it but you did not mention a single writing, just one application. You have not contested any part of the article in merit.

I would have been happy that you had answered the question: "When Paul says that we are dead with Christ, does he mean it literally? Or when he says that "we were buried with Christ "does he mean it literally?"

Or I would have liked you to have answered the question: "Is it the death that erases the sins or the sacrifice of Christ?"

Do you know why this happened?
is it possible (only possible) that you focused on the fact that I was "under 35" and so I needed advice?

Obviously even a 90-year-old can need advice. We are all imperfect and limited.

However the only really important thing is that every "thesis" is supported by the Scriptures.

If what I wrote is wrong, the right thing to do would help each other to understand what the Word of God really teaches.
I am ready to review and retract everything.
Are you really willing to do it anyway?

Or the fear of discovering that something that has been taught to us is wrong prevents us from getting closer to the Word of God (and therefore to God)?
is it possible (only possible) that we love our tranquility more?
Yet we should be happy if Jehovah, in his undeserved kindness, will allow us to understand more.

Even though I'm over 35, I do not scold anyone.
I invite only to reflect on the example of the Israelites of the past.
As you know, at a certain point, they stopped ascertaining the will of God.
They had the temple, the priests. They were unquestionably the People of God.
Was this sufficient to avoid discipline?

"Be sure of everything" is not bad advice, is not it?

"Keep on trying if you are in the faith and what you yourselves are".

Those who love God with all their heart, mind and strength, seek Him in His Word and are not afraid to clash with the judgment of the majority.
And those who want to live in holy devotion will also be persecuted.
I wish you with all my heart that you can have the humility to question yourself regardless of who tells you it is 20 or 99 years old.
Regardless of who tells you it is "an overseer" or the smallest and most insignificant among the brothers - Matthew 11:25, 26

 

 

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4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Meanwhile, I want to tell you that I'm not a young man.
I am not less than 35 years old.

Alright alright, already!

Let it be as when the brother on the platform asks for some young hands and the kids in the audience do nothing but sit on theirs.

He finally turns to some old-timer and says: "Well, let's call on someone young at heart. Brother Buzzard, please?"

Pity. I wanted you to be young.

 

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This website did not submit my reply. It somehow signed me out while I was typing it in. This is the second time that this website has done this, but I don't know who to advise.

So this is a copy of my reply:

Hi Israeli,

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

However, I invite you to reflect that you have not read the article I posted to you (the one titled "Death really cancels sin").

 

Note: I have not had the time (and I doubt that I WILL have the time) to read your ENTIRE article, so I could not make any comments. My free time is limited. I happen to have some time this morning so I am replying fully to you now. Normally, I do not have the time to reply fully this way.

 

8 hours ago, DeeDee said:

You remind me of me when I was young…

 

I did not say that YOU are “young” or “inexperienced.” By the things you have written, you obviously have been delving into God’s Word for years.

 

8 hours ago, DeeDee said:

My deep desire to learn the truth made me fall dangerously into one of Satan’s snares.

He used my desire to learn the truth to take me away from God, before I ever got to know Jehovah.

 

 

I was only stating that when “I” was young, Satan managed to misuse that sincere desire to know the truth. He used it as a snare that nearly cost “ME” everlasting life.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

But I would like to ask you a question: where do we learn about the personality of God?
Through what we learn to know God better?
Through what do we learn about God's way of thinking and acting?

We learn all this through the Bible, it's true?

 

 Yes, through God’s Word – the Bible.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Can we honestly say that we love God if we do not love His Word?

 

Obviously, No…but we must be sure that we do not make the Bible an “idol” or love it more than loving Jehovah and wanting to please Jehovah by doing his will.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

We must also make an honest critique and ask ourselves if we ourselves, ourselves, have not become the victim of a tradition or of prejudice

 

 We must also ask ourselves if we are DOING Jehovah’s will or Satan’s will.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

If I relied on my intelligence, then I would not consult the Bible.

 

 True…Yes, you deeply search God’s Word.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I have full confidence in Jehovah.

 

I am sure that you do…

But, do you have “full TRUST in Jehovah?”

Do you not TRUST that if Jehovah wants us to know a truth, that he WILL make that truth known to all of us?

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I would have been happy that you had answered the question: "When Paul says that we are dead with Christ, does he mean it literally? Or when he says that "we were buried with Christ "does he mean it literally?"

 

Obviously, not literally.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Or I would have liked you to have answered the question: "Is it the death that erases the sins or the sacrifice of Christ?"

 

Obviously, the sacrifice of Christ.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Do you know why this happened?

 

Obviously, because of Jehovah’s great love for us.

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

is it possible (only possible) that you focused on the fact that I was "under 35" and so I needed advice?

 

 No, because I do not know HOW OLD you are. I just know from my own personal experiences (MANY) just how devious and sneaky Satan is. And how he delights in stealing away very faithful followers of Jehovah of any age, especially young people. Since you are obviously a faithful follower, I was only warning you how dangerous Satan is. He is incredibly tricky!

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Are you really willing to do it anyway?

Or the fear of discovering that something that has been taught to us is wrong prevents us from getting closer to the Word of God (and therefore to God)?

 

My LACK of “fear of discovering that something that has been taught to us is wrong” is how I became easy prey to Satan. Yes, I am willing to learn the truth, but I also TRUST that Jehovah WILL provide any information that we truly need to do

his will, so I devote time to teaching others what they need to know to come to the truth. (see my post of December 1, 2017 https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/50543-can-anyone-explain-this-to-me-the-rest-of-the-dead-did-not-come-to-life-until-the-1000-years-were-ended/)

 

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

is it possible (only possible) that we love our tranquility more?

 

Sadly, having been tricked by Satan brought NO tranquility whatsoever! Yes, we should keep attentive to Jehovah’s word.

 

Now that I have answered your questions,

MY QUESTION FOR YOU is:

Should we spend more time on “STUDYING” his Word than we do “EXERCISING” our faith and “DOING” the will of Jehovah?

 

“However, become DOERS of the word and not hearers only,

deceiving yourselves with false reasoning…

the one who peers into the perfect law …and continues in it

has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a DOER of the work;

and he will be happy in what he does.” (James 1:22-25)

 

FULL Scripture for Reference  (James 1:22-25):

22 However, become doers of the word and not hearers only,

deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.

23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer,

this one is like a man looking at his own face in a mirror.

24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away

and immediately forgets what sort of person he is.

25 But the one who peers into the perfect law

that belongs to freedom and continues in it

has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work;

and he will be happy in what he does.

 

I am "happy" to spend much of my time preaching “so that I might by all possible means save some.” (1 Cor. 9:22)

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Thank you.
I believe that at this point we have reached a turning point in our conversations.
Probably this will be my last speech on this topic.
I'm sorry I believed you thought I was under 35.
It does not really matter. As I wrote, only the arguments matter.

I do not understand how it is possible to "make the Bible an idol".
You can make the Bible an idol only if you adore the image; if you make a "light", you kiss it and similar things.
How is it possible to make the Bible an idol simply by studying it carefully?

"loving Jehovah and wanting to please Jehovah by doing his will": and how is it possible to please Jehovah and do his will if you do not study His Word carefully?
David said "How I love your law! All day is my concern!" - Psalm 119: 97

"Happy is the man who does not walk according to the advice of the wicked And does not stand on the path of sinners

    Hello guest!
And does not sit in the seat of scoffers.
    Hello guest!
 
    Hello guest!
 But his delight is in the law of Jehovah,
    Hello guest!
And he reads His law in an undertone
    Hello guest!
day and night.
    Hello guest!
 
    Hello guest!
 He will be like a tree planted by streams of water,
A tree that produces fruit in its season,The foliage of which does not wither. And everything he does will succeed
" - Psalm 1:1-3

Try to look for all those servants of God who have expressed similar thoughts.

I should deduce from your reasoning that all these people made the Bible an idol.

" We must also ask ourselves if we are DOING Jehovah’s will or Satan’s will".

Well, only by studying the Bible carefully can we make sure that we are striving (at least, striving) to do God's will - Matthew 4: 5-7

Or do you believe that there is a better and higher degree of authority that can tell you if you are doing the will of God or that of Satan?

If you are convinced that I am doing the will of Satan (if the example you did not do it by chance) then there is only one way to prove it.
Through the Bible (oh sorry ... I'm just an idolater!) - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

"Do you not TRUST that if Jehovah wants to know a truth, that he WILL make that truth known to all of us?"
Oh, I have total trust in Jehovah. He will fulfill His will without doubt.

I also believe that He does not oblige anyone to study the Bible thoroughly.
I also believe that He can also use the last of us; even the most insignificant person.
Furthermore, I also believe that everything we need is written in the Bible.

The will of God will be fulfilled with us or without us.
We may have the privilege of understanding it, studying the Bible, or not understanding it (deciding not to study it).
Since "God is not partial" I believe that he gives you the opportunity to ascertain all things but will not oblige you to do so.

So yes, I want to reassure you in this respect.
Both have the same trust: Jehovah will make His Will known.
Unfortunately for those who have not really studied the Bible, this discovery could be painful.
Even if Jehovah does not need anyone to fulfill His purposes, those who study the Bible understand that they have a serious responsibility.
Talk to your brothers, first of all.

I do not even consider myself one prophet.
I am noone - Galatians 6: 3; Romans 3:23
But I imagine that the nation of Israel will have told Ezekiel: "Why are you bothering us? Do you not trust that Jehovah can make His Will understand without you? Do you have faith in Jehovah?"
Do you know what we can do?
An incorrigible idolater tells you this: to study the Bible and evaluate whether these topics are worthy of attention or are "Satan's will".

"MY QUESTION FOR YOU is:

Should we spend more time on “STUDYING” his Word than we do “EXERCISING” our faith and “DOING” the will of Jehovah?"

Well, thank you for the question.
Are you already sure that I am not doing God's will?
Are you already convinced that I do not go into service (for example) or that I do not work on my faults?
I want to answer you with a question.
How can we become "doing the will of God" if we do not study the Word carefully?

Do you know what the near future holds?
Of course, you will say "I know it" because he told you "the faithful and discreet slave".
I tell you, as "the idolater of the Bible", that it says there will be a war between the king of the north and the king of the south (yes, in the near future).

I also tell you that proscription in Russia is a clear and specific biblical prophecy that was to be fulfilled and is not the usual "hate problem on the part of nations".
The war that will break out (yes, the third world war) will end with the victory of the king of the north (NOT the king of the south).
Because of this victory, the proscription of the preaching work will spread throughout the world.

But a member of the governing body said, "They did not stop the Nazi concentration camps and they did not stop the communist labor camps, they will not be able to stop the work of Jehovah."
So we can be calm, right?

Instead the Bible says the exact opposite.
The king of the north will block the preaching work and "win" at least for a while.
This can be true or it can be false.
You know something, then?
The Bible says to "try inspired expressions" and then we wait and see - 1 John 4: 1

When you see these things happening, perhaps you will remember that presumptuous one who was idolising the Bible.

Surely you will reflect on these conversations.
Jehovah will make you know His will (for the next discipline that will fall on the People of God will be by His will) and then you will be right.
Jehovah will make known to all of us His will.

But perhaps it was better to understand the will of God first.
Perhaps it was better to understand God's will when we had the right time - Joel 1: 1-8
I have nothing more to add to this discussion.
As long as it is possible I will continue to post my articles based on the Bible.
Who will want to read them, will have the opportunity to read them.
Who will not want ... well each one decides for himself.

Meanwhile, I'll tell you what will happen soon.
The preaching work will be prohibited in all countries of the ex Soviet Union (stay to watch).
The king of the north will launch an attack on Israel (first they will only be strong denunciations and after military attack).
This will lead to war between the king of the north and the king of the south.
Obviously the brothers will say that "the great tribulation has begun" (exactly as it happened in the first and then in the second world war).
As the king of the north wins victories, the work of Jehovah's Witnesses will be banned in other nations.

If you had studied the Bible, instead of parroting "Let's just wait for the scream of peace and security and then attack the false religion" you would know what is about to happen.
Good awakening to everyone - Isaiah 28:21, 22

 

 

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5 hours ago, DeeDee said:

5 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Can we honestly say that we love God if we do not love His Word?

 

Obviously, No…but we must be sure that we do not make the Bible an “idol” or love it more than loving Jehovah and wanting to please Jehovah by doing his will.

I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but I find this statement of yours really strange. I believe you may not have meant to write it this way.  We only find out about Jehovah through the Bible (and creation). We can make idols out of what he has created, but to make an idol out of his inspired word? How would that be possible? Without his word we wouldn't even know his will would we? We love Jehovah by loving his word surely. There are many scriptures that show approval of people loving his laws.  Can we say we love his laws more than we love him? Wouldn't you say the two are intrinsically tied together.

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28 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Meanwhile, I'll tell you what will happen soon.
The preaching work will be prohibited in all countries of the ex Soviet Union (stay to watch).
The king of the north will launch an attack on Israel (first they will only be strong denunciations and after military attack).
This will lead to war between the king of the north and the king of the south.
Obviously the brothers will say that "the great tribulation has begun" (exactly as it happened in the first and then in the second world war).
As the king of the north wins victories, the work of Jehovah's Witnesses will be banned in other nations.

Well, that could be another alternative. But it doesn't make any difference to those who will keep on doing God's will no matter what.

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21 minutes ago, Anna said:
6 hours ago, DeeDee said:

 

Obviously, No…but we must be sure that we do not make the Bible an “idol” or love it more than loving Jehovah and wanting to please Jehovah by doing his will.

I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but I find this statement of yours really strange.

If we are not careful, our deep love for knowledge and the truth can become more important to us than our love for Jehovah and doing his will. Instead of using that zeal to do his will, we can misplace that zeal...Whatever item we have misplaced zeal for, becomes the "idol." And, as I described in an earlier post, Satan is VERY sneaky and can use a GOOD thing (God's WORD, for example) as a snare to distract us from doing Jehovah's will. Obviously, we must love, study and meditate on Jehovah's word to grow closer to him. I was only cautioning that Satan is VERY sneaky...We have to make sure that our love and zeal does not get misplaced.

I am speaking from a personal experience from BEFORE I learned the truth...

Satan had used my love for God and zeal for the truth and turned that zeal into an "idol" to mislead me AWAY from the TRUE God...

I was only expressing the need for ALL of us who love Jehovah to be cautious of Satan's distractions and of being distracted AWAY from Jehovah and DOING his will.

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1 hour ago, DeeDee said:

If we are not careful, our deep love for knowledge and the truth can become more important to us than our love for Jehovah and doing his will

I think what you mean is that we should not allow head knowledge to override our emotional attachment to Jehovah?

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1 hour ago, DeeDee said:

We have to make sure that our love and zeal does not get misplaced.

It's funny, but our love and zeal can get misplaced without accurate knowledge! As you know, there are many persons of other religions who have love and zeal but not according to what we say is accurate knowledge.

1 hour ago, DeeDee said:

Satan had used my love for God and zeal for the truth and turned that zeal into an "idol" to mislead me AWAY from the TRUE God...

If you don't mind me asking, how?

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Anna's post: I think what you mean is that we should not allow head knowledge to override our emotional attachment to Jehovah? [sorry, the system would not let me copy it when doing an edit]

Yes, that would be a good way to express it. While we have love of the knowledge, we wouldn't want that love to be greater than our love for Jehovah and doing his will.

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2 minutes ago, Anna said:
1 hour ago, DeeDee said:

Satan had used my love for God and zeal for the truth and turned that zeal into an "idol" to mislead me AWAY from the TRUE God...

If you don't mind me asking, how?

I spent YEARS of my life searching for the truth in other religions.

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9 minutes ago, DeeDee said:
12 minutes ago, Anna said:
2 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Satan had used my love for God and zeal for the truth and turned that zeal into an "idol" to mislead me AWAY from the TRUE God...

If you don't mind me asking, how?

I spent YEARS of my life searching for the truth in other religions.

So what was the KEY that finally helped you to find the Truth?

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Anna's post: So what was the KEY that finally helped you to find the Truth?

A brother came to my door and showed me the book "What does the Bible REALLY Teach?" I said to him: "That is what I have ALWAYS wanted to know!!!" I started a Bible Study immediately and have been grateful that Jehovah rescued me from Satan's system ever since!!

P.S. That is why the work that we do is so VERY important...We are helping Jehovah to save the lives of people who love him so very much, but don't know how to find him.

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20 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

Anna's post: So what was the KEY that finally helped you to find the Truth?

A brother came to my door and showed me the book "What does the Bible REALLY Teach?" I said to him: "That is what I have ALWAYS wanted to know!!!" I started a Bible Study immediately and have been grateful that Jehovah rescued me from Satan's system ever since!!

P.S. That is why the work that we do is so VERY important...We are helping Jehovah to save the lives of people who love him so very much, but don't know how to find him.

So what convinced you it was the Truth?

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23 minutes ago, Anna said:

So what convinced you it was the Truth?

I had been devoted to God since a child, but as a Roman Catholic. I was planning on becoming a Catholic Nun. In high school I read Matthew, which taught me many interesting things about the future that I was not being taught. Then at 17 I was babysitting...there were JW books and brochures at the home, which I read. At that point I decided that I could NOT become a Nun because what I read was so VERY different than anything taught by the Church. I began searching to find the truth. I knew it would be in the Bible, so I used to search for early copies to learn what was REALLY God's message. It became impossible to find the truth. When the brother came to the door, and I saw that the JW's had a book that REALLY taught the Bible, I KNEW that I had FINALLY found the TRUTH!!!

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4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Meanwhile, I'll tell you what will happen soon. 

 

On 1/3/2018 at 11:44 AM, TrueTomHarley said:
On 1/3/2018 at 11:16 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

have you gone from criticizing my posts to get to give me advice on how to "put me better" in front of others?

.

Yes. Are you not being a bit...um....immodest? 

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19 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

and I saw that the JW's had a book that REALLY taught the Bible, I KNEW that I had FINALLY found the TRUTH!!!

Ok, but I don't think that really answered my question. Just because someone says they will tell you what the Bible REALLY says doesn't guarantee they are telling you the truth does it. 

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16 minutes ago, Anna said:

Ok, but I don't think that really answered my question. Just because someone says they will tell you what the Bible REALLY says doesn't guarantee they are telling you the truth does it. 

I had received regular "informal" return visits with two sisters a few years before seeing the book and had been given a JW Bible. Also, I always respected the way JW's knew and used the Bible so thoroughly. And, as I said earlier, I KNEW that the TRUTH would be found IN the Bible [because I had ALWAYS believed that the Bible was truly God's Word and not man's.] So, when I saw that the JW's actually had a book that taught what the Bible REALLY teaches, I started to study. As I started learning what the Bible REALLY says, I quickly learned that "JEHOVAH" truly was God's name! That proved to me that the JW's MUST truly have the truth.

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. Are you not being a bit...um....immodest? 

Everything is possible.
I may have received a blow on the head and believe that I was enlightened.
I could have delusions of omnipotence.
Everything is possible, dear Tom.
But the point is that one does not have the will to examine every affirmation with the Bible.
Everything is thrown into confusion.
How old I am, where I come from, what my personal experiences are.
I could also be a cocky but until we go to see, really, what the Bible says, you can never know (and it is risky for those who do not deepen).
Really the last comment, though.

For DeeDee who studied the book "What the Bible really teaches".
I guess that to convince you that it was the truth you had to take the Bible and compare all the Scriptures, did not you?

You did not become a sister because of what was written in the book "What the Bible really teaches" but because of what is written in the Bible, is not it?

So you did not make the Bible "an idol" (whatever that nonsense means) but you made the Bible a guide.
And we must also love the Bible because it is the gift that Jehovah has given to humanity.

Only the biblical knowledge allows you to truly love it and receive eternal life - John 17: 3

I want to clarify only one point and then I disappear.
I also know that the name of God is Jehovah and I have learned many things exclusively thanks to God's people (this).
I do not underestimate all this.

I have not said that this is not the people of God nor that it is necessary to "change religion".
However, exactly as happened in the past, this people will undergo a strict discipline for not seeking God completely.

This people will undergo a discipline for having raised the words of some men above the Bible itself.

As I have already said, since you do not want to deepen these affirmations for "do not commit mortal sin", we will only have to wait.

I agree with Anna: those who truly love God will survive.

 

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On 1/4/2018 at 10:00 PM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Meanwhile, I'll tell you what will happen soon.
(...)
The king of the north will launch an attack on Israel (first they will only be strong denunciations and after military attack).
This will lead to war between the king of the north and the king of the south.
Obviously the brothers will say that "the great tribulation has begun" (exactly as it happened in the first and then in the second world war).

Wait a little while, gentlemen.
Perhaps some thoughtful person will remember what the Bible says about "inspired statements"
- 1 John 4:1

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6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Wait a little while, gentlemen.
Perhaps some thoughtful person will remember what the Bible says about "inspired statements"
- 1 John 4:1

Not to mention what we can find from the cross-references of 1 John 4:1 alone, which totals up to 5 verses.

But to see this one would have to see where each part of 1 John 4:1 directs the reader.

English Standard Version

Test The Spirits

1 John 4:1 reads: Beloved, do not believe every spirit [every inspired statements] (A), but test the spirits [inspired statements] to see whether they are from God (B), for many false prophets have gone out into the world (C).

 

[A]

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Thessalonians 2:1,2 - (1) Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, (2) not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Some Will Depart from the Faith

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

 

Jesus Is Coming

Revelations 22:6 - And he said to me, These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.

 

[C]

False Prophets and Teachers

2 Peter 2:1 - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

 

All of which are harmoniously connected to 1 John 4:1. It is stuff like this that should not be ignored, thus leading to some easily misleading others and or making an obvious hermeneutical violation in terms of scripture.

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20 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Per non parlare di quello che possiamo trovare dei riferimenti incrociati di 1 Giovanni 4: 1 da solo, che ammonta fino a 5 versi.

Ma per vedere questo avrebbe dovuto vedere dove ogni parte del 1 Giovanni 4: 1 indirizza il lettore.

English Standard Version

Provate gli spiriti

1 Giovanni 4: 1 legge: Carissimi, non crediate a ogni spirito [ogni dichiarazioni ispirate] (A) , ma provate gli spiriti [dichiarazioni ispirate] per vedere se sono da Dio (B) , per molti falsi profeti sono sorti nel il mondo (C) .

 

[UN]

L'uomo del peccato

2 Tessalonicesi 2: 1,2 - (1) Ora, riguardo alla venuta del Signore nostro Gesù Cristo e alla nostra riunione insieme a lui, noi, fratelli chiediamo, (2) di non essere rapidamente scosso in mente o allarmato, sia da un spirito, o una parola detta, o una lettera che sembrava essere da noi, nel senso che il giorno del Signore è venuto.

Alcuni si allontaneranno dalla fede

1 Timoteo 4: 1 -  Ora lo Spirito dice espressamente che negli ultimi tempi alcuni si allontaneranno dalla fede dedicandosi a spiriti menzogneri e gli insegnamenti di demoni,

 

 

Gesù mi s Com I ng

Revelat i ONS 22: 6 - E SA I D per me, Queste parole sono certe e veraci. E il Signore, il Dio della sp i r i ts dei profeti, ha mandato h i s angelo, per mostrare h i servi s cose che devono presto ta k e luogo.  

 

[C]

I falsi profeti e maestri

2 Pietro 2: 1 - Ma anche falsi profeti sono sorti tra la gente, così come ci w mi sarò fra voi falsi dottori che w i ll segreto br i ona i n Destruct i VE Heres i es, anche negare i one del master che li ha comprati, br i ng i ng su di sé sw i ft destruct i su. 

 

Che sono tutti armoniosamente collegati ad 1 Giovanni 4: 1. Si tratta di cose come questa che non dovrebbe essere ignorato, determinando in tal modo alcuni altri facilmente ingannevoli e fare o una violazione di ermeneutica evidente in termini di scritture.

Wow, Space Merchant, what a beautiful quote you did!
I mentioned it just for this.
Also I am aware that the verses should be read in their context.
In fact I apply this writing to myself.
What did I write, actually?
I wrote to "wait and see" and this means that my words can come true (and therefore were based on the Bible) or do not come true (and then I would be a false prophet).
I point out to you that even only verse 1 was sufficient because, in fact, term with the part "C" that you have highlighted.
So you should have understood the meaning of the quote as a whole.
Obviously, however, you are a fanatic and do not care to understand the meaning of scriptural quotations but simply "belittle what others write".
And why are you doing this?
Simply because you are interested in showing that a certain religious organization regardless of merits or demerits.
You worship your religion, not God. It is evident.
Do we want to have a minimum of intellectual honesty?
So if we apply these scruitture to everyone, surely the WT has made many false prophecies, denials, treated and retracted.
Oh sorry ... in this case 1 John 4: 1 is no longer valid, is it?
However I try to summarize the meaning of the quote.
Stay in waiting.
You are watching what will happen in a short time.
Greetings

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6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Also I am aware that the verses should be read in their context.
In fact I apply this writing to myself.

Alright then, as long as you respect the cross references, there should not be a problem, some Christians tend not to adhere to cross-references in order to justify something that is in error. Error does not sit well with those who apply Biblical Hermeneutics.

6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

What did I write, actually?
I wrote to "wait and see" and this means that my words can come true (and therefore were based on the Bible) or do not come true (and then I would be a false prophet).

Actually, I was quoting your previous comment, the one I have quoted in my previous post. There is more to a false prophet than just mere accursed prophecies and or teachings, but okay.

6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:
I point out to you that even only verse 1 was sufficient because, in fact, term with the part "C" that you have highlighted.
So you should have understood the meaning of the quote as a whole.
Obviously, however, you are a fanatic and do not care to understand the meaning of scriptural quotations but simply "belittle what others write".
And why are you doing this?

What of 2 Peter 2:1? This is the only cross-reference of which part C points to. I do understand, and by understanding I tend not to leave anything out. Oh and I know have understanding, I live and breathe scripture, pertaining to the posted I've made in the past, this is but the first time you have seen a comment from me, and I am not here to belittle, if that is what you want, but this is not the case.

I posted the cross-references so any reader can see where 1 John 4:1 points to, nothing more,nothing less, for the bible provides such for a reason, and it is vital because any man, woman or child can easily misinterpret and or mislead others by a single verse when not connecting the dots with any cross-references that said verse is connected to,  for instance, the many laws of the Jews of which Jesus has quoted and or profess of what is written, cross-references leads the reader to see where Jesus is quoting from and what said quote originated from, the laws of the Jews given to them by God.

Also, I would be wise if I were you, to judge and assume someone, underestimating them even, by your comment, hence what you have stated: you are a fanatic and do not care to understand the meaning of scriptural quotations but simply "belittle what others write".

Oh and as I said before, I aided cross-references so that people can see what 1 John 4:1 alludes to.

6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:
Simply because you are interested in showing that a certain religious organization regardless of merits or demerits.
You worship your religion, not God. It is evident.
Do we want to have a minimum of intellectual honesty?

I am far more interested in showing biblical truths, nothing more, regardless of religious background.

That is a nice comment here, of which you said: You worship your religion, not God. It is evident.

May I ask, as you sure that this claim of yours is correct? For any comment I have made there is absolute truth as to how this claim of yours is false, a Christian should not make a false claim.

Again, be very wise in your words, for we all know what the bible says about false accusations, you however, have already made 2 against me.

That being said, I care only for honesty, for time and time again, I stated my detest of dishonesty and lairs and manipulators of scriptures and such ones will be confuted, as already the case in the past.

6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

So if we apply these scruitture to everyone, surely the WT has made many false prophecies, denials, treated and retracted.
Oh sorry ... in this case 1 John 4: 1 is no longer valid, is it?

Can you state how is 1 John 4:1 not valid? Cross-references does not make a verse invalid. A man who twists a verse makes verses like 1 John 4:1 invalid, something that remains to be seen, of which has not happen yet.I do not like mockery of scripture either - such tends to be a violation in the realm of Biblical Hermeneutics.

Other then that 1 John 4:1 is indeed valid in terms of false prophets, mainly against those who claim to be totally and utterly inspired, those who are borderline Anti-Christ and or those who teach of what is accursed, as stated in Galatians 1.

The question is, if the verse can be applied to those inspired or not inspired? For everyone and their mothers knows, because of Adam and Eve we are imperfect and the price of imperfection we pay is sin. Only from there one can discuss, research and come to the conclusion of said false prophets an those who teach an accursed gospel.

6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

However I try to summarize the meaning of the quote.
Stay in waiting.
You are watching what will happen in a short time.
Greetings

Make sure the meaning is very close to Scriptural Facts because with minimum discernment one can catch error and refute with what is true against what is not true, and I will wait, as I have with others who speak what is true and some who have spoken utter fortune cookie nonsense, hence the dishonest ones.

I am always watchful, vigilant beyond a point of no return, hence my experience and knowledge of the bible and Christology itself.

Just next time, before you make false accusations of a person, in this case, me, make sure it is true and not outlandish claims.

Exodus 20:16 - “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Proverbs 19:9 - A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

As with the case of Pilate and the Jews against Jesus in regards to false accusations (Matthew 27:22–26).

Ironically, 1 John 4:1 is among the list of verses in regards to false accusations.

Perhaps understand of where I am coming from by looking at my past posts here, example being I am known of breaking down comments to response to each point, as I have here just now.

Other then that I am happy to discuss further on 1 John 4:1 in terms of Hermeneutics and understanding, for as you have already seen, there is now cross-references.

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Dear Space Merchant, you have only expressed two concepts. Can it be done with fewer words?
You say you're alert?
If so, you would have really studied the Bible, including prophecies.
This speech is not addressed to you in particular but to all those who have put an organization and a group of people above the Bible.

This means "to worship one's own religion" rather than God, even if we realize it or not.
The biblical comparison, which was once encouraged (perhaps), is certainly discouraged today, except to arrive at the same conclusions as the self-proclaimed and self-referential "faithful and discreet slave".
 

Being a bereans means reaching the same conclusions as those who command because, if by chance your "being berea" arose to other conclusions, always comparing the Scriptures, then you are no longer a "berean" but an apostate, a murmur. All right. it is useless to take the same thread for the thousandth time: it has nothing to do with the article.  The restoration of true worship, which will happen in the future (and it did not happen in 1919) will be a beautiful thing but it will also be painful for all those who have not really dug into the scriptures.

You say you're on guard? Really?
If so, you should know what will happen in the future because the Bible "makes us fully competent" and the prophecy "enlightens us in a dark place".
 

What will happen in the future? You know it? 

I do not know what you think but the WT has said that "all the prophecies have been fulfilled and that we are waiting only for the cry of peace and security and therefore the attack on false religion".

Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".

So we just have to wait to see who's right or maybe it's better to try and understand what the Bible teaches seriously, on these subjects and on others?

So, since almost no one wants to call into question the teachings of their religion Iì (in this sense you should ask yourself who you are really worshiping) I said: "Stand by and watch what happens".

The Bible teaches that the king of the north (which is Russia) will attack Israel (the true nation of Israel, which at present is Babylon the Great and not "the world empire of false religion") and this attack will lead to an escalation of other wars that will lead to the clash with the king of the south (the Ango-American empire, one of the few correct things said by the wt).

And of course he must win the king of the north, as Daniel clearly says (and he will not win the king of the south).

These are the wars the Lord said " Be careful not to be discouraged".
Almost all the prophecies applied to the past (from 1914 onwards) are future prophecies including the reappearance of true worship.

And I would have many other things to say but the confusion would increase.
Now the point is: what I just wrote, is it true or is it false?

Well: Since you do not want to really study the Bible with no religious or cultural conditioning, "we stand by and watch."

Obviously during the war that will break out (next, unfortunately) the WT will say exactly what he said during the first and during the Second World War.
He will say that "this is really the last and will end with armageddon".
Yet another affirmation that will demonstrate biblical ignorance.
The war will not lead directly to armageddon.

Agreed: say that I am presumptuous, ungrateful and other things.
Everything is possible.
I conclude with the same message that I left at the beginning.
When certain things happen, perhaps you will remember this discussion and remember the writing of 1 John 4: 1

After all the beautiful courtly language remains a fact.
If wisdom is true is proven by his works.
We have to wait and see what happens.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:


We have to wait and see what happens.

  

Since we will will have to wait and see what happens (for once you do not tell it), why are you so quick to say what the WT says is wrong?

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30 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Dear Space Merchant, you have only expressed two concepts. Can it be done with fewer words?
You say you're alert?
If so, you would have really studied the Bible, including prophecies.

Another false accusation or a claim without proven facts? For if I am aware of prophecy in regards of the bible, how am I not really studying prophecy, when there is legitimate proof I am well adapt in such?

again, do not make claims you cannot determine if it is true, and from my past response on this forum, everything I say is truth and originates from a long time of biblical study.

Again - be wise with your words next time you make comment, for if one sees the history of everything I post here it would pain you as a lair, we wouldn't want that now would we?

And no concepts were expressed, it is merely proving a claim to be false in regards to someone makes false claims of another person, and or seemingly judging said person when it is the first encounter, as we see here.

You made a claim that I followed an organization, last I recall, I am not a JW, I am a Biblical Unitarian, one of such that has a high regard to who speaks truth and who does not speak truth, thus confutation.

35 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

This speech is not addressed to you in particular but to all those who have put an organization and a group of people above the Bible.

Well friend, 1 John 4:1 applies to every man, woman and child who reads their bible, especially if one understands what Testing the Spirit means, which connects with what abides in us as Christians, not sure if you mentioned verse 3.

Can you give an example of people who put the Church above the bible? After all, if one knows who/what the Church means, it's mission, it's goal, which of course originates from the bible, hence Jesus' command and that he himself is the head of the church, how are you making the claim of a man putting the church above the bible when God's Spoken Word is spoken through the Son, the very person of which makes up the church?

The church of which that was said to be built by Jesus alludes to this as well, how is this missed?

I would answer that quite easily, but I do not see how you yourself missed that, after all, all of us here know what the bible says.

41 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

This means "to worship one's own religion" rather than God, even if we realize it or not.
The biblical comparison, which was once encouraged (perhaps), is certainly discouraged today, except to arrive at the same conclusions as the self-proclaimed and self-referential "faithful and discreet slave".
 

So what of the Spiritual House and what Jesus had entrusted his Apostles, who in turn, to the followers, to the students, etc of the Church? This alludes to what is stated above. Based on the Apostolic Age, is is unheard of of those who derive from such worship a religion. Any man who is part of a religion has a based belief, at times some beliefs are distributed by religious heads, who are and or act as the Shepherds to the Flock, for if Christian history as not already taught us this, the bible in regards to the Spiritual House and what Jesus commanded, is evident.

You have to have valid proof of a man worshiping  religion, which in this day and age and since the days of our church fathers, an absurd assumption to make and quite unheard of, if anything the real question would be the faith of the religion itself, that being said, this claim of yours does not even make sense.

Other then that, the silly assumption will not do - the reality is, those in a faith and or religion does their teachings and servitude align with God and his Spoken Word, or that of something else, perhaps different from what the scriptures say?

False Prophets are known to twist the scriptures, even breaking, picking and choosing God's laws, other times, rejecting totally the Tanakh, Hebrew Old Testament, which is the case with the Christian denominations of the mainstream and the New Agers, for such ones claim to be of God, yet they ignore parts of and or a majority of his word, example, having people of the same sex marry inside the temple, which clearly is against all things that is holy, for we know, by the bible, God has made man and woman, so they can populate the earth, and teach their seed, offspring of who God is as well as how to life in terms of the teachings.

All and all, the real question is: Is the person and or group following the correct faith/religion or a false ones? Is said religion's teachings is in harmony with God's Word, in harmony with Man's Word, or a mix of both - picking and choosing?

The logic here speaks for itself, and a man who worships a religion is unheard of, unless we have forgotten what the definition of Religion even means:

  • the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
  • a particular system of faith and worship.
  • a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

Again, in order to test the spirit (1 John 4:1), information in this regard has to be met with factual proof in terms of a true/false faith.

55 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I do not know what you think but the WT has said that "all the prophecies have been fulfilled and that we are waiting only for the cry of peace and security and therefore the attack on false religion".

Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".

Can you get a direct quote from the Watchtower itself for confirmation and so that everyone here can examine it themselves? Because when people say something, they assume it is true without citations.

Jehovah will not allow a 3rd world war? Sources? Who said - You said? Ironic how you made the claim to prophecy, but I will not hold this against you.

Believe me, I know a lot about what is going on in the world right now, things you may not even be aware of, and or unaware of supporting unknowingly, as is the case with 100.00% mainstream Christians. Some, such as myself, are far more vigilant than others, and are not the type to be tricked so easily and or mislead, especially to the claim that you have mentioned, friend, you will have to have a good source on that claim because with anyone who is knowledgeable of the situation at hand - this claim here is false.

Other then that, with the knowledge I have in that domain, I will have to say your source and or claim is as I stated it is, for we are already at a tipping point of a war due to 2 factions, and 2 parties that have connections on both sides, that of which I had mentioned in a thread on this forum with 100% facts of said knowledge - hence my extensive vigilantes. In addition to opposers on both sides, expect the 2 parities in question, that being, The United Nations and the Deep State.

Yahweh/Jehovah will not allow His people to perish, something we both can agree on, for we know how God has reacted, in scripture, when his people are under attack, he is also aware of those who endure and those who adhere to prophecy, like the situation at Jerusalem being an example.

The enemy we have today is the Harlot - Babylon the Great, her agents roam the lands as we speak and has an organization that is connected with a triad of power (political, government, religious) all working as one, mainly in the realm of a One World Government and a One World Religion, for we have already seen what sent down in 2015 and onward regarding religion, and as of 2016, the government, for the legacy of a deceased woman continues to run its engine and acts as an element in the schemes of Babylon the Great.

These Spirits have already been tested by those who know who such persons are, and they are indeed among the Harlot's table of champions, which of whom will stamp out any group and faith that opposes them, and such persons will be met with increased persecution, violence, banishment, and even death. And we also see the decline in Christianity due to falsehood entering Christianity itself, however, Christian minorities still stand and such minorities are the very ones being targeted by the Harlot and that of any wicked evildoer as well as false prophets.

As stated before, God will actually take action when his people are indeed in danger, and he has an appointed time (Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:34, Mark 13:34) of which he will save his people by means of his Son, who will return. Until then, we have yet to suffer from End Times Tribulations that will devastate mankind on a great level.

So in the mean time it is being awake and enduring, as as pertaining to the verse at hand - test the spirits, as well as teach those the gospel that is true.

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Being a bereans means reaching the same conclusions as those who command because, if by chance your "being berea" arose to other conclusions, always comparing the Scriptures, then you are no longer a "berean" but an apostate, a murmur. All right. it is useless to take the same thread for the thousandth time: it has nothing to do with the article.  The restoration of true worship, which will happen in the future (and it did not happen in 1919) will be a beautiful thing but it will also be painful for all those who have not really dug into the scriptures.

Actually you missed core traits of a Berean truly means. A Berean is free of prejudice, they are not gullible, they are energetic and a Berean is not willingly ignorant, all of which equal to Scriptural Facts,I will not bother posting and referring every single verse, but if you know the bible, you would find this quite easily, and how one can compare a Berean to each and everyone person on this thread. I already know where I stand.

It is also important to note that Bereans were receptive to the will of God and they were more than hearers. Whatever the case in regards to our attitude in hearing God's word, we must be obedient to the truth and nothing but the truth. "Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men." - Acts 17:12. Therefore having the spirit of the Bereans is indeed vital.

You may want to re-look at all facts regarding a Berean again and look at the claims you make, you have to be true to your word if you consider yourself a Berean, yet you make claims that you cannot back up - hence the accusations of which you seem to consider as concepts when you clearly do not know my background, as with other claims.

That being said, Restoration of true worship has already been set in motion, and it is by means of true worship, we not only know what is to come, it prepares us to understand scripture and to worship Go the Father, as well as following in what His Son had taught about the Kingdom and what it will bring.

Last I recall, no one said anything about restoration of true worship in 1919, in fact, it is more of Jesus regarding the church, as well as the madness that was taking place in 1919 whereas thousands of people died from the epidemic, prior to the end of the first world war. 500 million affected; over 30 million dead, more death than the war itself.

I would not say painful, for God is indeed a Just God, however, he will not torment people day in and day out, for we know by a verse that wrongdoers will indeed by punished with eternal destruction, not the so called Hell doctrine, for that is not something that would come into the mind of God, let alone how his emotional response was in the Torah and or his actions against Ahaz and Menassah, however, Menassah wised up and repented.

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

So we just have to wait to see who's right or maybe it's better to try and understand what the Bible teaches seriously, on these subjects and on others?

So, since almost no one wants to call into question the teachings of their religion Iì (in this sense you should ask yourself who you are really worshiping) I said: "Stand by and watch what happens".

It is one thing to understand the bible, but is is another thing to easily be mislead to use the bible to attack someone of faith. It is understandable against false doctrines and misuse of the bible, but to attack a faith without a solid conclusion of falsehood, let alone a Restorationist Christian based face, that has to be called into question.

You cannot standby and wait, for that is a sin - doing nothing at all when what is right can easily be done.

Numbers 32:23 - But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the LORD [YHWH], and be sure your sin will find you out.

James 4:17 - So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. (dozen of other verses in this regard)

Therefore,until that time comes, again, we test the spirits, we teach, we preach, we read, we live as Christians, etc. As a Christian, there is always something to do, we are active, not passive or deactivated. As a living self sacrifice to service itself, it is by command we keep ourselves busy in the gospel an the teachings.

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

The Bible teaches that the king of the north (which is Russia) will attack Israel (the true nation of Israel, which at present is Babylon the Great and not "the world empire of false religion") and this attack will lead to an escalation of other wars that will lead to the clash with the king of the south (the Ango-American empire, one of the few correct things said by the wt).

Friend, you are incorrect. Israel is part of Babylon the Great, current Israel, let alone earthly Jerusalem for that matter, is not of God's, but Heavenly Jerusalem indeed is, of which will come soon in the near future - The Bride of the Lamb.

Israel contributed to killing Christians in the Middle East and has killed their own neighbors, one instance, a teenager, young man, now dead because of Israeli powers, and with said power, they shot him square in the skull because he was in the right, as did the others who were shot at, some of them being killed by nearly sniper fire to the head, others with injuries from bullet wounds. I am sure that Jehovah/Yahweh is not a fan of sinners killing an innocent child, let alone anyone who is against corruption in Israel, and the actions of their allies, God will most likely destroy Israel, for they are indeed a major player in the One World Religion, as well as the One World Government.

Russia at this state is a pawn to Babylon and will attack them, nation against nation, for the US and Russia already have several nations under them, as well as allies, again with 2 parties connected to both of them.

As I said before, Babylon the Great consist of Government and Political Powers as well as Religion, of which over a dozen of Religions have already joined her since the Pope was making rounds and gaining support to have all religions merged and or group together, ever take into account of his actions in Washington DC in the US on 2016 whereas in 2015 if was more for political support and gain?

This is why I said it before, some tend to be far more vigilant than others. Russia on the other hand, is also corrupt, they had no problems hiring a Satanist group to pressure Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims, and once they are off the streets, the Satanist are allowed to run free while the RoC takes over alongside the Duma. The JW ban plays a key role in what is to come and such people are indeed an enemy to Babylon the Great, the reason why right after the Pope visited, the banning of the faith took place by means of the RoC and the Ministry of Justice in Russia, very strict to the point that poems and Pokemon can put you jail.

Again, apply 1 John 4:1 carefully, hence the topic, the actions of modern day Israel, you think they are a true nation of God vs what is said in the Bible of what is to come? God's people do not send support to allies that get Christians raped and killed by terrorist, of which has gain support by means of an Israeli ally, the US. I ask you to be vigilant, but clearly the application of being a Berean is not being applied here.

2 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

And of course he must win the king of the north, as Daniel clearly says (and he will not win the king of the south).

These are the wars the Lord said " Be careful not to be discouraged".
Almost all the prophecies applied to the past (from 1914 onwards) are future prophecies including the reappearance of true worship.

And yet the claim of to a source of God making sure World War 3 will not take place is contradicting, as well as what you being blind to the situation at hand. It is far more dire than you realize, and clearly it is the signs of the times, but we are nowhere near the End Time Tribulations that will be brutal and very hard to deal with.

And yes, we are not discouraged, we endure, we are vigilant, we are doing the works we do not sit around and wait and do nothing. We, by our faith and works teach so that should we perish, the one we teach will continue the words and the spread of the gospel for us, the truth and nothing but the truth.

2 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Now the point is: what I just wrote, is it true or is it false?

Well: Since you do not want to really study the Bible with no religious or cultural conditioning, "we stand by and watch."

Again, do not make claims you know that is not true - false accusations and by means of testing the spirit, one can see where you stand.

I rather not wait and do absolutely nothing, for He that abides in us, I, as a Christian, by faith will do the works, and maintain my faith that is the door to Salvation, for keeping faith, as said in Jude, is indeed a hard fight.

2 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Obviously during the war that will break out (next, unfortunately) the WT will say exactly what he said during the first and during the Second World War.
He will say that "this is really the last and will end with armageddon".
Yet another affirmation that will demonstrate biblical ignorance.
The war will not lead directly to armageddon.

Unfortunately for you, there is actual statement of the WT regarding to what they said to this regard, as well as an eye witness to what was actually said in the 70s, in addition to a man who clearly isn't a fan of JWs, but has high respect for CTR and is well versed in CTR by a study of 56+ years - which includes information about Har'mageddon. Speculative in nature, not one ever stated that Armageddon would definitely come when war breaks out.

2 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Agreed: say that I am presumptuous, ungrateful and other things.
Everything is possible.
I conclude with the same message that I left at the beginning.
When certain things happen, perhaps you will remember this discussion and remember the writing of 1 John 4: 1

Well I am not those things, hence my history, but I cannot speak for others for my position is somewhat unique. That being said there is more to 1 John 4:1 than what you have posted, but it seems to are directing the reader solely on the Watchtower itself rather than the full detail of what 1 John 4:1 brings forth.

I jumped in on this discussion to add cross-references, but the false accusation of you claiming I am somehow not well verses in the bible, is a mistake and I wish not to confute, but if I must - I will.

Until then, I will post in detail of 1 John 4:1 myself regarding an those who are true and those who are false without the need of support of infighting of a faith.

In the end, to make one remember something, you have to teach it the right way. If you teach a dog to sit, to be silent, he will do as such, but if you teach a dog to attack someone, they will do what you have taught them. The same can be said when it comes to teaching what a verse and or passage means in the bible itself.

2 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

After all the beautiful courtly language remains a fact.
If wisdom is true is proven by his works.
We have to wait and see what happens.

Agreed, but what has to be added also is that wisdom is indeed good, but false claims is not the best idea against someone, let alone someone who is well versed in scripture.

Other then that, I will post 1 John 4:1 in detail later on. I purposely left out other cross-references in hopes you'd make a response, but you did not.

But next time you feel the need to make a false claim know this:

I am a Unitarian Christian, studied the bible for 2 decades and has can understand both Greek and Hebrew enabled to know the oldest source of which the bible is based off of - hence my love for Textual Criticism, as some have already know. I take into account of bibical hermeneutics, and I do not refute, I correct by confuting against falsehood or misuse of scripture, as well as dealing with the dishonest. I take into account and defend what is true by means of the oldest source and the teachings. I make a response to every comment and or claim, separately (as I have done here already).

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since we will will have to wait and see what happens (for once you do not tell it), why are you so quick to say what the WT says is wrong?

Waiting and doing nothing at all is a sin, however waiting and using the time to do the works to build faith is another story. The man has many odd claims to his comments thus far and obviously using Scripture in an attempt to not root out falsehood, but to attack a faith itself, therefore in this matter one can easily see that @Israeli Bar Avaddhon is taking notes out of the mainstream Christianity playbook.

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Waiting and doing nothing at all is a sin, however waiting and using the time to do the works to build faith is another story. The man has many odd claims to his comments thus far and obviously using Scripture in an attempt to not root out falsehood, but to attack a faith itself, therefore in this matter one can easily see that @Israeli Bar Avaddhon is taking notes out of the mainstream Christianity playbook.

As a general rule, I do not like it when someone calls attention to their own special insight or qualifications. It seems to me that this fellow does it in spades.

I actually don't mind speculation or added commentary as long as it clearly is labeled for what it is and does not run down everyone that is not yet so enlightened.

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Because I know 1 John 4:1 will not be expressed to what it actually means, I will just go ahead and post the following:

Beloved, believe not every spirit

The apostle having mentioned the word "spirit" in the latter part of the preceding chapter, takes an occasion from thence to return to what he had been suggesting in the "second" chapter, concerning the many antichrists that then were, and whom he points out, and here cautions against. By "every spirit" he means, either every doctrine that is pretended to come from the Spirit of God, or every teacher, who professes to be qualified and sent by him, and to have his light, knowledge, and doctrine from him. Every true minister of the Gospel has the Spirit, and the gifts of the Spirit, more or less, to qualify him for his work; he is separated, and called to it by him, and receives his spiritual light find knowledge from him; it is he that teaches him sound doctrine, and leads him into all truth, as it is in Jesus, and brings every necessary truth to his remembrance; and who succeeds his ministrations to the good of souls: but there are some who call themselves the ministers of the Gospel, who, though they may have some natural abilities, and a share of human learning, and a notional knowledge of things, yet have never received either grace or gifts from the Spirit; nor have they been ever called by him; nor are their ministrations according to that divine word which is inspired by him, nor attended with his demonstration and power; wherefore, though some professing to have the Spirit of Christ are to be believed, yet not everyone; and though the Spirit is not to be quenched in any, nor prophesying to be despised, yet care should be taken what is heard and received: some persons are so obstinate and incredulous as not to believe anything that is declared, be the evidence what it will; as the Jews would not believe Christ and his apostles, though what they said agreed with Moses and the prophets, and was confirmed by miracles; and others are too credulous; at once receive every teacher, and embrace every upstart doctrine: this they should not do,

but try the spirits whether they are of God

not by human reason, especially as carnal and unsanctified; for though the doctrines of the Gospel are not contrary to true reason, they are above it, and not to be judged of by it, and are disapproved of and rejected by carnal reason; but by the word of God, which is the standard of all doctrine; and whatever agrees with that is to be received, and what does not should be rejected. And so to do is very commendable, as appears from the instance of the Beraeans, who on this account are said to be more noble than those of Thessalonica, (Acts 17:11)

Paul and Silas in Berea

[Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so]

and from the commendation of the church at Ephesus, (Revelation 2:2)

To the Church in Ephesus

[“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.]

And this is what every believer, every private Christian should do; to them it belongs to read and search the Scriptures, and prove all things, and judge for themselves of the truth of doctrine; and to such a probation or trial of the spirits, spiritual light, knowledge, judgment, sense, experience, and divine guidance are necessary, which should be asked of God, and an increase thereof; and all such diligent searchers, and humble inquirers, are capable of making judgment of persons and doctrines, whether they are from the Spirit of God or not, for the Spirit of God never speaks contrary to his word: and the reason why such a trial should be made is,

Because many false prophets are gone out into the world:

such who pretended either to a revelation of future things, and to foretell things to come; or rather to a gift of prophesying, or preaching in Christ's name, to be "prophets" and spiritual men, and ministers of the word, but were "false" ones; who either predicted what did not come to pass, or rather preached false doctrine, by corrupting the word, and handling it deceitfully, and so imposed upon and ruined the souls of others, as well as deceived their own: and there were not only one, or two, or a few of these, but "many", as our Lord had foretold, ( Matthew 24:11 [A] ; Matthew 24:24 )

[A]

Signs of the End of the Age

[And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.]

 

The Abomination of Desolation

[24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.]

and which makes the reason the stronger for not believing every spirit, but trying them; and the rather, since they were not sent of God, that is called out by his churches, but were "gone out" of themselves; of their own heads, and without any mission from God or man: and "into the world" too; they were in every part of it, and especially where there were any churches of Christ; into which they first crept in privily, and at unawares, but afterwards became public preachers of the word, and then separating from them, set up openly in the world for themselves.

Source: 

    Hello guest!

 

Also that World War III about God's actions comment and the WT source I still await, otherwise I come to the conclusion that your spirit has been tested, and the outcome is indeed not a well received one - should said claims of yours are deemed false, which, seems, evident thus far.

The bible informs us of truth and we are not to make any silly outlandish claims on this simple fact. True the nations will rise, but what you mentioned goes beyond the gravity of the situation of things in a different direction.

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@Israeli Bar Avaddhon 

I was serious. I am still awaiting on said claims of which you stated.  Since that topic was indeed about 1 John 4:1, bear in mind such error begets this verse to be easily without a shred of effort, to be used against you - should these claims of yours turn out to be false, hence still the sources of which you said such remains to be seen.

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@Israeli Bar Avaddhon You do realize I can still see the very comment of which you removed? There is a good reason as to why I call myself Space Merchant, although I can spot half of the comment, which I will quote:

You stated: I have no interest in continuing this conversation with people who prefer to repeat that their religious organization is the right one, that it is never wrong, and that it does not intend to question its own convictions even with the Scriptures.

I concur, for if one brings up a claim and holds it to a high regard and or with strong conviction, such claim should have a source as to such, in your case, 1 John 4:1 can be applied to you, for you brought the claim of several things, but lack an actual and or credible source of said claim, which turns can be deduced to be made up and or said just because whereas actually evidence of said claim does not exist, thus making such obsolete and a total lie to mislead any reader of this topic.

And no one is repeating anything pertaining to a religious organization, the problem is, you are making claims you cannot back up with credible sources, which I will post shortly in this response.

And again you make accusations, which you cannot back up. As I recall, even though this forum is a hub for Christians in the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, not everyone here is a Jehovah's Witness as do some who are not part of a religious backing and or read the bible enough to understand hence why people seek questions from those who can explain something to them, but they are welcome to join this forum and have their say and share some things, but it has not occurred to you probably - unless you are blind to that very solidified fact, which is deemed true to anyone who has access to this forum as a member and or a guest who reads the threads and discussions here.

Oh, and everything has to be done by the Word of God in terms of Scripture, not twisting it, changing it, nor using it for a sick gain.

You stated: I think it is right to make my research and Scriptural reflections available, but discussing or polemics is useless.

There is no issue with that, but the problem you face is with said research you can easily mislead others, and assume that what your research is final judgement for any man, woman, or child who professes said faith, when people know very well everyone is distinct and different from each other regardless of their religious background. For instance, you may know JWs, Muslims, and Jews in the a specific state and county in the US, but you do not such ones who live in the micro islands, in Asia, perhaps India or Iran. Same faith yes, but each of them differ, some more stronger in biblical studies and understanding than others, while those who lack tend to be easy target of any Anti-Christian and or Anti-Religion person who crosses paths with them.

You stated: If you are really interested ...

Buddy, I am more interested in a source and a detailed answer to claims.

The lite stuff as mentioned below, in case you didn't see the response or realize what I as getting at.

  • Since you do not want to really study the Bible with no religious or cultural conditioning, "we stand by and watch."

Any man or woman who claims biblical hermeneutics should tell you something, and I have claimed this many, many times as well as my understanding of scripture and history in Christianity, in addition to the study of the language. It is one thing to study the bible, but it is another thing to understand what the bible teaches, for studying the bible alone will not help you, mainly when tasked and put in a position to answer basic, but still somehow complex questions, of which people want to seek answers to.

That being said, if the bible gave clear instruction that we should not be idling as Christians, why the response from you?

  • Obviously during the war that will break out (next, unfortunately) the WT will say exactly what he said during the first and during the Second World War. He will say that "this is really the last and will end with armageddon". Yet another affirmation that will demonstrate biblical ignorance. The war will not lead directly to armageddon.

So if the WT has already had a state on something why contradicted it with the response you have given about the group? Let alone the information presented by those who are neutral with and or not a fan of the Watchtower at all, for if their word is true, why bring a contradicting statement?

  • I do not know what you think but the WT has said that "all the prophecies have been fulfilled and that we are waiting only for the cry of peace and security and therefore the attack on false religion"

I study the history of Christianity (a great deal of it to the point it plays like a documentary movie in my head), apparently I do know more about the Watchtower as well as I know about other Christian faiths, the Sunni and Shia beliefs in Islam and many other faiths, for to speak on terms with one person, you have to understand where they are coming from and why, hence the study of religion and faith -  Theology. The cry of peace and security has resulted in the creation of the Interfaith Institute that had the Pope do his little events at a UN gathering, as well as his actions in 2015 to 2016, especially Washington DC, just recently prior to the Syria Attack done by the US, Israel and backed allies, Peace and Security has been mentioned and soon after that the actions taken by Christians in Syria against the people you claim to be just, the Israeli gov't, as well as their allies, the head of the group being the US. But one never notices the actions of religions when Peace and Security is uttered, just wait until the One World Region takes full effect, perhaps only then you would see, but it will be a bit late.

That being said, you really do not believe that the false prophets who have religion as a front will not be attacked? They are going to throw something down in Texas in October to gain more people on their side, for the bigger they get, the more bigger the target gets on religious minorities and eventually the nation will attack religion, for if you are against them, or as the political communication phrase goes -  "you're either with us, or against us"

  •  Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".

Who said this, and how are you so sure of a claim that it seems to be that you are the only to "make this up" for it cannot be found anywhere else expect your comment? This is why I stated, if you make a claim, back it up with detail and or sources, otherwise your spirit will be tested and in this case, it came out as a negative, until valid proof is presented.

This is the very problem that a lot of people face with those who claim rapture before end time tribulations, for they make the claim but do not have proof to back it up, which hurts them even more is that the bible says otherwise. Perhaps next time you mention something, make sure it is valid and or that the source itself can be seen, read and verified. We should not resort to dishonesty to mislead the masses, and seeing that I literally know the actions of the government and politicians because I literally dive into this stuff, mainly with the situation of a world war for I have a very very VERY strong source in this regard, and I presented my information elsewhere on this forum, you can look for it in my activity.

  • The Bible teaches that the king of the north (which is Russia) will attack Israel (the true nation of Israel, which at present is Babylon the Great and not "the world empire of false religion") and this attack will lead to an escalation of other wars that will lead to the clash with the king of the south (the Ango-American empire, one of the few correct things said by the wt).

So how is a nation true and pure if they are able to snipe and shoot down innocent civilians who are not for the corruption of Israel? I am not a fan of RT, but somehow they manage to get the footage, which describes what I am talking about.

    Hello guest!
 Mind you, the Israelis shot and killed a 15 year old who was walking away in the opposite direction. As I last recall, the Israeli government is part of Babylon the Great, for the group that the Pope is part of, the group in origins is Israel. The United Nations and the Deep State have their hands deem in the very team they want to win, anyone on the side of the US and those who are connected to the US alone, and such ones are against those who are against US's conquest, the very reason why Israel is now in conflict with Iran, who is teamed up with Russia. But what is interesting is this alone contradicts your previous claim.

As for Russia, they are not too clean either, but there is a clear reason as to why they are against the One world agenda, the very reason why the Pope is trying to join both sides, which will result into something far worse, for the last time the Pope came into contact with the Russia's church, the JWs got banned and the kidnapping of civilians took place in Chechnya, and the Ukrainian Christians were very angry over what the Pope had said about them to the RoC.

Also again, it would be kind if you were to post an actual source and or the very saying on the WT's side rather than just saying it to expect people to believe words without fact. So this is the reason I stated the following of still awaiting a detailed source to such claims, perhaps then I would understand where you are coming from, but in this instance, one can apply 1 John 4:1 to the claims you mentioned, for if you say something, it has to be deemed as true, for if it is not true, the very notion of 1 John 4:1 will be subjected to you in telling something that is false and deeming it to be true - that is, if you have real information of said things mentioned.

As for the accusations however, despite that being false, I would not hold it against you, for as I said, this is the very first time you/I have discussed with you/me. So I would not hold such against you, but should you expand on the notion of false accusations, expect a not so pleasant confutation, for a confutation is far more critical than the average refutation.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

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4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I had made a comment but then I realized it was not worth it.
This is why I canceled it.
Continue to shake hands.
Good continuation

Just next time never make claims that cannot be backed up and or false accusations because the very verse that is in question, 1 John 4:1, can and will be used against you in regards such. As a Christian, you have to tread carefully, otherwise there will be those who will pick up and cause what you say to backfire on you and you alone by means of critical unshakable truths.

Those who study the bible do there best to not make such an error as you just have, in regards to the bible, even Jesus himself was falsely accused and we can see how he defended what is true and himself when challenged by Pharisees and those who do not like him or what he had to say.

But as for your more direct false accusations, I will consider it as nothing more than water under the bridge, so to speak, for this time, and perhaps you will now know there are serious people on this forum as realized - you just discussed with one and it will happen again should any error or false claim is coined - for I myself come from a very neutral, and yet highly critical and very serious community that consist of solely biblical readers whereas the slightest of error there will result in a very strong confutation, not a mere refutation.

Other then that I will leave this here as a reminder, for this below does not apply to a specific faith and or other, it applies to all people who make false accusations and or the enabler, the one who makes such claims:

Quote

What does the Bible say about false accusations?

Regarding false accusations, the psalmist says, “For they do not speak peace, but against those who are quiet in the land they devise words of deceit” (Psalm 35:20). This is an accurate description of the motives and results of false accusations. People lie about the innocent in order to stir up trouble. This happens on every level of society, from the halls of your local high school to the halls of the Pentagon. People accuse others falsely as a revenge tactic or power play or when they think they have something to gain. There is no need to state that this behavior is unbiblical in the extreme.

The command against making false accusations is one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:16). According to Mosaic Law, someone who accused another person falsely was to receive an ironic punishment: “The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst” (Deuteronomy 19:18–19). The Law also specified that the punishment of a false witness was to be carried out without pity (Deuteronomy 19:21); it is a serious thing in God’s eyes to make a false accusation.

The folly of making a false accusation is illustrated in the book of Esther. A man named Haman, a nobleman in the court of King Ahasuerus, devised a plot to frame a Jew named Mordecai and have him hanged on a gallows fifty cubits high. Haman sought to ensure Mordecai’s death by means of false accusations. Haman devised this plot because he hated Jews, and he especially hated Mordecai because Haman was jealous of a favor Mordecai had received from the king. But Haman’s plot was found out, and the punishment for Haman’s treachery was poetic justice—he was hung on the very gallows he had constructed for Mordecai (Esther 5:9–14; 6:4).

Those who make false accusations are under God’s judgment (Psalm 5:6). As followers of Christ, we can expect that people will sometimes make false accusations against us, but hear Jesus’ encouragement: “Blessed are you when people . . . falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven” (Matthew 5:11–12). No matter what others say about us falsely, we rely on God’s Word: “Though the arrogant have smeared me with lies, I keep your precepts with all my heart. Their hearts are callous and unfeeling, but I delight in your law” (Psalm 119:69–70).

Jesus Himself faced false accusations from the Pharisees and their followers. Isaiah prophesied this when he said of the Messiah, “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7). Even Pilate, the Roman governor who oversaw Jesus’ sentence, knew that Jesus had done nothing wrong, but he pandered to the Jews and allowed the false accusations to stand (Matthew 27:22–26).

According to the Mosaic Law, those who falsely accused the Son of God should have been themselves crucified. Instead, Jesus looked down at the soldiers and the rulers who were scoffing at Him and dividing up His clothing, and He said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34). This was an indication that the Mosaic Law had been fulfilled by Jesus’ sacrifice and that a new law of forgiveness and mercy through faith in the Lamb of God was now in place for all who would believe in Him. “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17; 3:16).

 

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You really love the tone of your voice, do not you?
You did not understand absolutely what I wrote, but obviously you love to listen to yourself.
I quoted 1 John 4: 1 writing "Behold what is happening".
You have made a question about nothing.

I apologize for my poor and imperfect English; you try to understand.

I did not skip the second part of 1 John 4: 1 to twist a writing.
On the contrary: this writing you have to apply to my statements.

I wrote that the war between Russia and the USA will break out (including the N.A.T.O nations) and this is a biblical prophecy.
The cause of the outbreak of this war will be Babylon the Great (or the nation of Israel) and it is for this reason that "in her the blood of all those killed on earth is found".

Now, those "killed on earth" are not those killed by the dawn of time, but only those who will be killed during the day of the Lord - Revelation 1:10

This is the main reason (not the only one) for which Babylon the Great must be destroyed. However it will not be destroyed during this first attack but it will be destroyed near the war of Armageddon (which is still future, and does not concern this terrible war).

Now, the point I wanted to make clear is this (be careful).

Are the statements I have just made true?
Are they false?
is this a correct interpretation or is it false?

Since you do not want to question yourself in the light of the Scriptures, I wrote "stay and watch what happens".

If what I wrote does not come true, then you can remember this conversation with a smile, thinking about how I was naive, stupid, presumptuous or even "false prophet".

Only the facts show the truth or the lie.

So when I mentioned 1 John 4: 1 (I repeat) I did it to reiterate this concept.
Since nobody really cares (apparently) to elaborate on a topic in the light of the Scriptures, I can not do anything but publish the mkie research and leave all the "debates" to you.

I believe that instead of making unnecessary debates, we should study the Bible without cultural or religious conditioning (this means loving one's religion above the Bible) and this statement was addressed to all those who feel safe and think they already have all the answers.

We should take advantage now, now that the war has not yet broken out, to "make sure of everything" - 1 Thessalonians 4:20, 21

We should take advantage now, now that we are living a period of relative tranquility, to make Biblical knowledge our protection - Ecclesiastes 7:11, 12

We should take advantage now, now that we are not yet under the tribulation, to "beg in every time to escape what will have to happen" - Luke 21:36

This, in general, does not happen because you all feel in an iron barrel.
You have all the answers because your religion gives you false assurances - Isaiah 28:18

You have raised the words of some men above the words of God and this means "to adore one's own religion" above God.

I do not want to have any further discussions about it.
There was nothing to add to my previous comment.
I wrote "you are watching what happens" and the implication was "look if what I wrote is true, or it does not come true".

Continue with your criticism, your comments, your debates ... go and see every comma, make a lengthy discussion.
I do not care.
I conclude with exactly what I wrote at the beginning.
On the contrary, I use the same "modus operandi", so maybe you will not make another long and useless novel.
1 John 4: 1 reads: Beloved, but test the spirits [inspired statements] to see if they are from God (B), for many false prophets have gone out into the world (C).

So ... "watch what happens".
Have a good time

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10 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

You really love the tone of your voice, do not you?
You did not understand absolutely what I wrote, but obviously you love to listen to yourself.

When it comes to anything biblical I am critical, this goes for anything as well as false claims, false information or anyone's means to twist scripture and or the very bible canons itself. Anyone who is familiar with my posts here and how Christians operate at CSE, they'll know that when it comes to anything of the like - the responer is and will always be, critical, at the same time confutes any accusations and or claims big or small, should said claim is false or in error.

The community in question is here: [1] 

    Hello guest!
[2] 
    Hello guest!
both of which that are connected and should you do the same there as you do here, I can say you will be met with serious criticism, an they do not take religion/Christian Infighting lightly and will point that out if need be.

I understood what you wrote also,but it does not shield the claims and accusations that are stitched into some of the comments of yours.

10 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I apologize for my poor and imperfect English; you try to understand.

No worries, as long as everything is readable, you are fine.

10 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I did not skip the second part of 1 John 4: 1 to twist a writing.
On the contrary: this writing you have to apply to my statements.?

I wrote that the war between Russia and the USA will break out (including the N.A.T.O nations) and this is a biblical prophecy.
The cause of the outbreak of this war will be Babylon the Great (or the nation of Israel) and it is for this reason that "in her the blood of all those killed on earth is found".

NATO is US backed, they are among the list of US allies that will help them in a warmongering conquest. The thing is, Russia does not want war, period, but the actions of the United Nations and the Deep State, is pushing the US and allies to seek war with Syria, and Russia, and their allies, even among the UN, do not want this, and are open to defend Bashar Al-Assad, of whom the US blamed for him for chemical attacks, mind you, Assad was not the man who attacked his own people, let alone killed the Christians int he country, it was the actions of Jayish Al-Islam, the very enemy of Assad of whom the US and allies is supporting, said group, if part of Al-Quedina, you can see the details of the information in my post down below:

If that isn't enough for you, one of my sources made it very clear of who the US an their allies, even the UN, is supporting against Syria, Russia and the like. Mind you the video is a bit graphic, even though some parts are blurred.

 

As for the Harlot, Babylon the Great, she is not just the current Israel alone, she is all over the place, even in America, etc. When the Nations start to dwell within the realm of religion to the point they begin to stamp out other faiths, you'll know what time it will be, and for some, it will be way too late. Russia and their allies are not so cool either, but they are the pieces on the chess board, in turn, still part of Babylon the Great, an example would be, they allowed Satanist to mess around with Jehovah's Witnesses before banning them, elsewhere all people who oppose the RoC will be met with serious, serious consequence, no matter what age you are, regarding US and Israel allies, the ones they supported, they shot up and killed a Christian family, dumbing their bodies in a single well of which the village gets their water from, the very reasons why Christians, right now in Syria, have sided with Bashar Al-Assad because enough was enough, and US is marked as an enemy, while Israel and Saudi Arabia will attack with sheer brutality should Iran congregated in Syria - after all, Israel was the one who jumped the gun on the April attack.

There is no doubt something big will happen, but God himself will take action at a specific time of which he had chosen, which is unknown to all of us, for we do not know when the Father will speak on the day of Judgement to start, people can guess, people can wait, but they will not know what the Father knows.

But should it interest you, there has been a lot of talk about religious unity, something is to happen in Texas in a couple of months, Babylon's view of religion, as it was done in 2016, will be done in Texas in the month of October, if you live in the US, I suggested you not go to such an event, despite how peaceful they try to make it.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

This is the main reason (not the only one) for which Babylon the Great must be destroyed. However it will not be destroyed during this first attack but it will be destroyed near the war of Armageddon (which is still future, and does not concern this terrible war).

Ok, but now you are contradicting yourself with what you said before, a claim that still has no source or answer to. Other than that, H'armageddon is already know and before it does happen, times brutal tribulations will ensue, as far as I know, people have already made bunkers. It may be on point like those old dystopian future based movies, but more realistic and difficult.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Now, the point I wanted to make clear is this (be careful).

Are the statements I have just made true?
Are they false?
is this a correct interpretation or is it false?

Since you do not want to question yourself in the light of the Scriptures, I wrote "stay and watch what happens".?

If what I wrote does not come true, then you can remember this conversation with a smile, thinking about how I was naive, stupid, presumptuous or even "false prophet".

Well then, if you think as such, I suggest you give proof and a source to these claims of yours:

  •  Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".

 

You made this comment, if you want to proof yourself as not false - give proof to a source to such a claim.

  • I do not know what you think but the WT has said that "all the prophecies have been fulfilled and that we are waiting only for the cry of peace and security and therefore the attack on false religion". Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".

The Same can be said about this one, you said this and I confuted, as did with the other claims.

As for the false accusations, anyone who is families with my comments will not the things you have said directed to me - is indeed, false.

Other then that, you can prove yourself right now to give detailed proof to the 2 items mentioned above, otherwise, 1 John 4:1 is applied here, thus making these things, these claims of yours - as false, therefore, your spirit has been tested without much of an effort.

If you know who I am by means of my history on this forum, I am someone who does not like dishonesty, and I know dishonesty when I see it, even in the smallest error.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

So when I mentioned 1 John 4: 1 (I repeat) I did it to reiterate this concept.
Since nobody really cares (apparently) to elaborate on a topic in the light of the Scriptures, I can not do anything but publish the mkie research and leave all the "debates" to you.

I told you, I believe twice to post such in detail, which you have not, that is why my older comment was more inline with what 1 John 4:1 is really about, I even took the time to cited my source and proof of the claim in regards to this verse, if you missed it, it was the colorful one not to far up: 

 

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I believe that instead of making unnecessary debates, we should study the Bible without cultural or religious conditioning (this means loving one's religion above the Bible) and this statement was addressed to all those who feel safe and think they already have all the answers.

But you make it religious by using scripture against a religious group, The Jehovah's Witnesses, this act is called Christian Infighting, or in another term, Christians Persecuting Other Christians, not on doctrine mind you, but on the belief itself.

Other then that, it was not a debate, per-say, it was more of a correcting of the wrong, for knowing me, leaving something that is in error going unchecked will only cause more damage later on - and error does not sit well with me or anyone else, mainly if a claim is coined with no proof.

And I'll say it again, it is outlandish for a man to love a religion over the bible, for this claim makes no sense, I even posted the definition of religion, but I do not think you have read it, this time I will link:

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

I hope you never make that claim to someone in person, for if you do, they will critique you on what the word Religion even means, which in itself speaks more than the claim you are bringing up right now.

Religion basically mean the practice of a faith = Christian/Christianity = teachings = adhere to God's Spoken Word and the practices of His Son, and examples left by us by the followers = She Being Part of us, She meaning The Church, of which the Christ is the Head of.

If in your eyes people love a religion, they we should all be guilty of being Christian, regardless of denomination, we can take it a bit further, all Religions of all branches are guilty, but the false ones and the true ones. See? Does not make any sense, hence why I linked you the definition.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

We should take advantage now, now that we are living a period of relative tranquility, to make Biblical knowledge our protection - Ecclesiastes 7:11, 12

Advantage of wisdom

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

We should take advantage now, now that we are not yet under the tribulation, to "beg in every time to escape what will have to happen" - Luke 21:36?

This, in general, does not happen because you all feel in an iron barrel.
You have all the answers because your religion gives you false assurances - Isaiah 28:18

Being Awake and making supplication in regards to the Luke verse.

Isaiah 28:18 is regarding the death and the grave. And no it is not because of my faith, it is because I study the bible day in and day out. And due to biblical studies, discernment to root out error and falsehood as well as dishonesty.

It would seem you have no learned from making false accusations, yet you want to play that card again, we can go about that as soon as you post proof to 2 of your claims, otherwise, the table would have turned twice for you.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

You have raised the words of some men above the words of God and this means "to adore one's own religion" above God.

Who are these men you speak of? If you read any of my history here, I tend to keep God's Word as number 1, that is why I always mention this word hermeneutics, which means the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts.

Can you cite a source for one who "adore one's own religion"? This is the first time I ever heard such a claim in regards to someone of a faith. I hope you do have a source for this one, so this brings the count to 3.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I do not want to have any further discussions about it.
There was nothing to add to my previous comment.
I wrote "you are watching what happens" and the implication was "look if what I wrote is true, or it does not come true".

Then next time pick your words wisely, and your claims, otherwise they will be confuted.

So how what is true about God and World War 3 comment from you? What about the false claims whereas everyone here knows how I respond and yet you make a false claim against me? How I this true?

Just as Jesus had did, I stand and confute those who make such error and dishonesty, regardless of who that is a Muslim, a JW, Unitarian, Black Israelite, etc.

If someone makes an error, a twist in scripture, infighting and outlandish claims, and the like - they will be confuted, and they will be met with actual criticism to their false claims, therefore, such ones have their spirits tested, and will be rooted out for their error, no matter who it is.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Continue with your criticism, your comments, your debates ... go and see every comma, make a lengthy discussion.

Cite your  sources and perhaps things would be different. This I still await, otherwise, those claims, like the false accusations, are deemed a lie, therefore, is false.

11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I conclude with exactly what I wrote at the beginning.
On the contrary, I use the same "modus operandi", so maybe you will not make another long and useless novel.
1 John 4: 1 reads: Beloved, but test the spirits [inspired statements] to see if they are from God (B), for many false prophets have gone out into the world (C).

So ... "watch what happens".
Have a good time

modus operandi does not change God's Word and what His Word means, let alone His laws.

It may be a novel to you, but I give detail of what is true and nothing but truth as well as pointing out error, such as the ones you claim and it is clear as day to all here who reads on this very thread. Next time you want to make claims, make sure it is true, this was the case with 2 others on this forum who have been exposed for their error, count that, it is 3, for there was whereas I gave a history of Christians banning something.

Also if you are going to make a false claim, make sure it is not in the sight of those who are real Bereans who can act upon their discernment and defend what is true no matter what, even if it means rooting out the lies painted on others, which you have done, and the error on your part about God and World War 3 comment.

I won't be having a good time, like a Christian, I will be vigilant,and enduring, no matter what, and doing what the early Christians and our fathers have been doing, teaching the real truth of the gospel and defending it, as well as rooting out falsehood of those who try to push their mainstream Christianity over the truth.

As for the claims, you can either say nothing, so we know the conclusion, or you can attempt, but will result in the same outcome, unless what you had said is indeed true, then it would be different, other then that I suggest you read up more on what is going, mainly about the nations and religions perhaps you will wonder why a specific faith is declining all over the world, hence why they side with those in government.

Other then that, you are indeed smart, but it seems you are still blind for the errors you spouted out in your comments, but the more you read, the more out of the blindness you dissolve.

The truth will set you free, do what you will with it, should you choose it.

PS: before you wanna take shots again in regards to my beliefs, I suggest you do some homework on how I am, which is very easy to see by means of my profile history.

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Don't you mean "disappeared"?  Past tense since the watchtower predicted armageddon so many times?

 

1877 'The End Of This World; that is the end of the gospel and the beginning of the millennial age is nearer than most men suppose; indeed we have already entered the transition period, which is to be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation Dan. 12:3." (N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, p. 17).
 

1888 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions." (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)
 

1889 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')
 

1894 "Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? 'The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.' Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Zion's Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894, Also in Watchtower Reprints, l894 p. 1677)
 

1894 "A few more years will wind up the present order of things, and then the chastened world will stand face to face with the actual conditions of the established Kingdom of God. And yet the course of the Church is to be finished within the space of time that intervenes." (Watchtower p. 56, 1894)
 

1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)
 

1917 'There will be no slip-up...Abraham should enter upon the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925' (Watchtower Oct. 15, 1917, p. 6157)
 

1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89)


1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)


1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)
 

1966 "According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E Six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yea within this generation. The rein of Christ...to run parallel with the 7th millennium ..." (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 1966, p. 29-30)

 

1966 "Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. 'The new book compels us to realise that Armageddon is, in f