Who will call?

[io.porog]

Who will call the dead to life? Who is doing the calling in these scriptures?

Because my friend thinks Jesus is the one who will do the calling, but thought it was God going by Job and John here:

Job 14: 13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me,
That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!
14 If a man dies, can he live again?
I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.
15 You will call, and I will answer you.
You will long for the work of your hands.
 

John 5: 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 
 

It would seem that Jehovah does the calling. But please let me know if I have this wrong and please provide references. Thanks.

[JW Insider]

Jehovah God, the Father, calls. And so does Jesus. No contradiction. Because, in will and purpose --even though the Father is greater-- Jehovah and Jesus are the same. ("I and the Father are one"). The "call" in this case is a "command" which results in the effect of raising the dead to life. It is the simultaneous purpose of both Jehovah and Jesus to effect this resurrection and judgment. This may sound contrived and convoluted, but notice that this is the exact same explanation Jesus gives in John chapter 6:

(John 6:38-40) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 This is the will of him who sent me . . . . that I should resurrect them on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

(1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16) 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

(Philippians 3:14) 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.

 

 

 

[io.porog]

Yeah, hmmm. I think it maybe like how we say Jehovah is our saviour and Jesus is his means of saving us. But that both can rightly be called savior, even though Isaiah says only Jehovah is the savior.

[Evacuated]

2 Pet 1:1 "Simon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have acquired a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ:"
 

2 Pet 1:11 "In fact, in this way you will be richly granted entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Acts 5:31 "God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

[Melinda Mills]

In addition to the comments above, these scriptures clearly show that Jesus will perform the resurrection with full power and authority from his Father.

(John 5:25-30) . . .the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. ²⁶ For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. ²⁷ And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. ²⁸ Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice ²⁹ and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. ³⁰ I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

 

*** w79 6/15 p. 20 par. 18 Resurrected—“Each In His Own Proper Place” ***

¹⁸ Jesus Christ releases mankind only from the Adamic death and our common grave, Haʹdes. He assured us of this when he said: “I am the First and the Last, and the living one; . . . and I have the keys of death and of Haʹdes.” (Rev. 1:17, 18) So, with good reason, Jesus said to Martha: “I am the resurrection and the life.”—John 11:25.

 

*** w76 4/15 p. 244 par. 18 Why We Need the Kingdom of Jesus Christ ***

In heaven the glorified Jesus Christ can still say: “I am the resurrection and the life.” That he is authorized by God his Father to raise the dead, he assures us by his words in the Revelation vision to John: “I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”—Rev. 1:18.

 

(Bold text - mine)

[BroRando]

On 4/9/2016 at 9:07 PM, JW Insider said:

Jehovah and Jesus are the same.

@Thinking

Seems that @JW Outsider has echoed the same non sense that oppossers of Jesus Christ have. Many trinitarians have taken the same concept to try to prove that Jesus and God are the same. Remember the quotes @JW Outsider has removed from my quotes?

I already stated:

  Quote

The second Greek title θεός (theos) can apply to God, a god, or gods and is shared with many.

However, the reader should note that (theos) in John 1:1c through-out the entire scripture is never described as (theon).

Altering my quotes @JW Insider is not only unethical but dishonest. Something a Jehovah's Witness would not engage in.

  15 hours ago, BroRando said:

All I need to do is show the very quotes that I have already stated:

• John 1:1 reads: “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God [τὸν θεὸν, literally, the god], and the Word was a god [θεὸς].”
•  John 17:3 reads: This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God [θεὸν], and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
• John 20:17 reads: "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God [θεὸν] and your God [θεὸν].’”

Scriptures prove that Jesus is not Jehovah... "The Father is Greater than I am"  

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, BroRando said:

On 4/9/2016 at 9:07 PM, JW Insider said:

Jehovah and Jesus are the same.

You are selectively quoting again to make it look like I said the opposite of what was actually said. It's considered dishonest to create a partial quote to make it look like someone said something they didn't. To clarify, I will include the full quote below so that anyone can see what you tried to do.

On 4/9/2016 at 9:07 PM, JW Insider said:

Because, in will and purpose --even though the Father is greater-- Jehovah and Jesus are the same.

I assume that you actually believe exactly as I stated that "In will and purpose Jehovah and Jesus are the same." For even more context, read the question in the original post and my FULL response further above.

Please be more careful when quoting persons. This is not the first time you have used quotes from me and distorted their purpose and made them seem like they were saying something quite different from what I actually said. In fact, you misquoted me from this very forum and put it on one of your websites and in a book of yours which is still available online. You used that quote to make it appear I was supporting another theory of yours that turned out to be false.

Please take a lesson from your own false accusation against me. The projection and blame-shifting is very revealing:

1 hour ago, BroRando said:

Altering my quotes @JW Insider is not only unethical but dishonest. Something a Jehovah's Witness would not engage in.

I am guessing that all this vitriol and anger and divisiveness and contention on your part are a result of seeing the evidence that your theory was false and that the Watchtower article I quoted was true. If you are angry that the Watchtower rejects your false theory, then please take it up with the Branch, the Writing Department, the Governing Body, the WTBTS, or the CCJW. I think it will only continue to embarrass you if you continue to lash out dishonestly against other persons on this forum.

[BroRando]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You are selectively quoting again to make it look like I said the opposite of what was actually said. It's considered dishonest to create a partial quote to make it look like someone said something they didn't. To clarify, I will include the full quote below so that anyone can see what you tried to do.

I assume that you actually believe exactly as I stated that "In will and purpose Jehovah and Jesus are the same." For even more context, read the question in the original post and my FULL response further above.

Please be more careful when quoting persons. This is not the first time you have used quotes from me and distorted their purpose and made them seem like they were saying something quite different from what I actually said. In fact, you misquoted me from this very forum and put it on one of your websites and in a book of yours which is still available online. You used that quote to make it appear I was supporting another theory of yours that turned out to be false.

Please take a lesson from your own false accusation against me. The projection and blame-shifting is very revealing:

I am guessing that all this vitriol and anger and divisiveness and contention on your part are a result of seeing the evidence that your theory was false and that the Watchtower article I quoted was true. If you are angry that the Watchtower rejects your false theory, then please take it up with the Branch, the Writing Department, the Governing Body, the WTBTS, or the CCJW. I think it will only continue to embarrass you if you continue to lash out dishonestly against other persons on this forum.

It's good for the forum to see your dishonest antics. Your ad hominem attacks on me are not going to work. I'm used to being attacked for my religion.

On 4/9/2016 at 9:07 PM, JW Insider said:

Jehovah and Jesus are the same. ("I and the Father are one"). The "call" in this case is a "command" which results in the effect of raising the dead to life. It is the simultaneous purpose of both Jehovah and Jesus to effect this resurrection and judgment.

 Phooey! 

• For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, (John 5:22) Not the same same. Wrong Wrong.
• because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. (1 Thess 4:16)

To claim Jehovah and Jesus are the same is Modalism. God doesn't come with an archangels voice nor with God's trumpet... lol

 

[JW Insider]

58 minutes ago, BroRando said:

It's good for the forum to see your dishonest antics. Your ad hominem attacks on me are not going to work. I'm used to being attacked for my religion.

On 4/9/2016 at 9:07 PM, JW Insider said:

Jehovah and Jesus are the same. ("I and the Father are one"). The "call" in this case is a "command" which results in the effect of raising the dead to life. It is the simultaneous purpose of both Jehovah and Jesus to effect this resurrection and judgment.

I see you did it again. You didn't even use ellipses to show that you are starting the quote in the middle of a sentence. Many months ago I would give you the benefit of the doubt because it could have merely been a matter of lack of comprehension. But I see you have the ability to go out of your way to be dishonest. For clarity here is the original quote again:

Quote

Jehovah God, the Father, calls. And so does Jesus. No contradiction. Because, in will and purpose --even though the Father is greater-- Jehovah and Jesus are the same. ("I and the Father are one"). The "call" in this case is a "command" which results in the effect of raising the dead to life. It is the simultaneous purpose of both Jehovah and Jesus to effect this resurrection and judgment.

I believe that Jesus and Jehovah are the same in will and purpose. I believe that's what Jesus meant when he said "I and the Father are one." It's what we teach as Jehovah's Witnesses.

What you have done is not much different than someone who would try to say the Watchtower promotes the Trinity doctrine just because the following three quotes are "accurate" in the sense that they are unaltered:

*** nwtsty Philippians Study Notes—Chapter 2 ***
the phrase “Jesus Christ is Lord” means that he and his Father, Jehovah, are the same person.

*** pm chap. 21 p. 389 par. 53 Theocracy Triumphs over All the Nations ***
at the time of the baptism of Jesus in the year 29 C.E. the name of this Son of God became a ‘substitute or a replacement for Jehovah’ and that Jesus is the same as Jehovah and hence the name Jehovah does not need to be used anymore.

*** ad p. 894 Jehovah Is Our Righteousness ***
this means that Jesus, the Messiah, and Jehovah are the same, forming one God.

Using quotes like that is dishonest because it leaves out the first part of the quote containing key information showing that the Watchtower actually holds an opposite viewpoint.

If you agree that it would be dishonest to use these quotations the way they are presented above, then you are admitting to being dishonest by doing the something just like it with my quote.

[BroRando]

20 minutes ago, Errikos Tsiamis said:

John 1:1
Three great things are here said of The Word: First, He was "in the beginning" [‎en ‎‎archee ‎= ‎b­ree°shiyt ‎Gen 1:1]. Thus does our Evangelist commence his Gospel with the opening words of the book of Genesis. Only, as Meyer remarks, he raises the historical conception of the phrase, which in Genesis denotes the first moment of time, to the absolute idea of pre-temporality. That the words "In the beginning" are here meant to signify, 'Before all time' and all created existence, is evident from John 1:3, where all creation is ascribed to this Word, who Himself, therefore, is regarded as uncreated and eternal See John 17:5,24; Col 1:17.

Pretty close. John 1:1c actually speaks of the Word's Qualitative Sense. Notice these translations:

• 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago
• 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen
• 1956: "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity" – The Wuest Expanded Translation
• 1970, 1989: "...and what God was, the Word was" – The Revised English Bible 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
• 1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin

 

John 1:1 is the Beginning of Creation that supersedes Genesis 1:1. For example, we read, "When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?" (Job 38:7) Morning stars are among the first angels or the beginning angels of creation. Morning Stars and all the sons of God are the angels that existed before Abraham was and before the earth itself. After all, it was the newly created earth that they were applauding.

A few supporting scriptures:

• In the Beginning was the Word (John 1:1)
• Firstborn of All Creation (Col 1:15)
• The Beginning of Creation by God (Rev 3:14)
• Take a look at Jesus' admission @ (Rev 22:16)

Quote

 

Proverbs 8:22  “Yahweh created me, the first of his ways,

                             before his acts ⌊of old⌋.

                          23 From eternity, I was set up from the first,

                             from the beginning of the earth.

                          24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth,

                             when there were no springs of ⌊abounding⌋ water.

                        25 Before mountains had been shaped,

                              before hills, I was brought forth.

 

 

[Pudgy]

…

[BroRando]

6 hours ago, Errikos Tsiamis said:

Logos play a crucial role. I fail to perceive any distinction. The holy bible should not be altered in any way. One compelling reason why the "logos" is considered the Word of God is that it holds immense power and significance.

That's why Trinity is seen more as a perception rather than a rule.

According to the perception of the trinity, the doctrine is opposed to the Christ by omitting from its doctrine.

• No parts have a Beginning - Yet John 1:1 reads In the Beginning was the Word.
• No part is Greater or lesser than the other - Yet, Jesus states, The Father is Greater than I am
• Nothing Creation in the trinity - Yet Proverbs 8:22 says

  10 hours ago, BroRando said:

  Proverbs 8:22  “Yahweh created me, the first of his ways,

                               before his acts ⌊of old⌋.

                            23 From eternity, I was set up from the first,

                               from the beginning of the earth.

                            24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth,

                               when there were no springs of ⌊abounding⌋ water.

                          25 Before mountains had been shaped,

                                before hills, I was brought forth.

  The Logos is the Messenger of God.  Jesus himself admits that ' I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star. (Rev 22:16)

His given Name made him better than the angels. (Hebrews 1:4) Trinitarians and Modalists alike claim God became better than the angels by the name God inherited is a false notion or concept. 

Then I will ask to explain:

• How is it that God at one time was worse than the angels until he inherited the Name that made him better than the angels?
• Which angel gave God is Name?

Food for thought.

 “I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him. (Exodus 23:20-21)