Jump to content

JOHN BUTLER

Jehovah's Witnesses Child Abuse / Pedophilia and the Governing body.

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

JOHN BUTLER -
James Thomas Rook Jr. -
81
3928

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

I cannot understand why there is only partial information concerning the Jehovah's Witnesses and Watchtower Society Child Abuse accusations from around the Earth. I have just put a status on my FB page saying that : The one thing I have learnt in life is, that I don't know the truth about anything".  The reason for this is that there is always some doubt about things read 'online'. Are they true ? Does one want them to be true? Are my opinions correct?   So with that in mind I will continue with the information I 'have read online'. 

We all know that Child Abuse and Sexual Abuse accusations are, or appear to be 'in fashion' right now. In politics, in entertainment, and in religion. But Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be 'no part of the world', that is the 'world' that belongs to Satan the Devil. So it would come as a surprise then that from top to bottom the JW's are being accused of Child Abuse Earthwide. 

What I've noted so far : The Australian Royal Commission did a three year investigation into the JW org, most of which is available online to read. They found that since 1950 there were 1006 accusations of Child Abuse within the Australian branch of Jehovah's Witnesses, none of which were reported to the police or secular authorities........... In Canada there have been large court cases in Quebec and Ontario againse JW org..... A $66 million lawsuit against the religion's leadership is taking place.....  In the Netherlands 'Reclaimed Voices' foundation have set up emergency phone lines and have put out advertisements concerning victims of abuse within the JW org there. The 'hotline' had received 80 replies as of December 28th 2017..... In the UK (where I am) the Charity Commision set up an inquiry into the UK branch of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding child abuse / sexual abuse. I think this started with the Manchester New Molton congregation in 2014. The Charity Commision also set up an inquiry into the Watchtower Soc (WTBTS) here in the UK. In Feb 2016. The Org went to court to try to block the investigations but failed. A former elder from South Wales said there was instructions to elders to destroy all documents regarding child abuse. There seemed to be a cost to the Org of over £1 million which I presume is court fines and payouts. 

Then of course we have the USA. In 2014 a $10.5 million lawsuit against JW Org by Valicia Alston and others. In 2015 the Candace Conti case against Jonathan Kendrick. And in April 2016 the Watchtower Soc' remained defiant in refusing to hand over documents about the Child Abuse in the USA branch of the JW Org.  Now it seems (and remember I'm only going on what I've read) that the JW Org in USA sent out a letter in 1997, to all elders of congregations in the USA. The letter was a direct instruction to the elders to send in ALL documents and information concerning accusations of Child Abuse / Sexual abuse both current and passed. This was to be an ongoing instruction and all information was to be sent in special blue envelopes to Brooklyn. Now there are approx' 14,000 congregations in the USA, and the time period from 1997 to 2017 is of course 20 years. So it would seem that the Governing Body have 20 years worth of accusations concerning Child Abuse and Sexual abuse with in it's USA congregations. However, despite court action and direct instruction to the JW Org / Watchtower Soc', the W/T and JW Org still refuse to hand over the documents to the High court. In November 2017 a High court of California fined the JW Org / WT Soc'  $4,000 per day for not handing over the documents, and it seems the cost so far to the Org / WT is more than           $2 million. I cannot find out if any of this money has been paid or is still owing. 

One other point that I found interesting (providing it's true of course) is that the Governing Body has deliberately separated the JW Org, known as the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Each of these now has its own Legal Department. The purpose of this is to slow down all court proceedings because the Legal Dept from one has to write to the Legal Dept of the other for information, then the legal Dept of the other refuses such information etc. This is what caused the Supreme Court of California to impose the heavy fines on the Org. Basically the court got fed up with the 'clowning around of the JW Org.  

So to sum up: It seems that many countries, Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, UK and USA, have found and proved many cases of child abuse / sexual abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses and Watchtower Society. But what makes this worse is that the Governing Body of the Org' is deliberately withholding  the information about pedophiles within its ranks. Add to this that elders of congregations Earthwide are instructed not to inform their congregations about pedophiles within their congregation. And, congregation members are told not to report child abuse / sexual abuse within the congregations, to the Police or outside secular organisations. On top of this victims are not believed, because the Governing Body has made a rule that says there must be two witnesses to any accusation of abuse, which of course will not happen in the case of Child abuse or Sexual abuse.

About me : I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses until about a month ago.  After doing approx three months research online my conscience would no longer allow me to remain within the Organisation. How could I encourage other people to join an Organisation that allows Child Abuse /Sexual Abuse to continue unreported and unpunished within its ranks. There could be a pedophile within the congregation that I was part of, I would never know, because the Elders would keep it secret.... However, I do believe in God, whether His name is Jehovah, Yahweh or something else, and I am keeping my mind open as to how I will find the 'truth' of God's requirements. 

What i am hoping for is that some BIG media source will bring all the information together concerning all the Child Abuse / Sexual Abuse accusations against the Jehovah's Witnesses Org' and the Watchtower Soc' Earthwide, so that all info' is readily available to everyone. At the moment it all seems so 'bitty' and not organised. Yes there is info' online, but are the sources trustworthy. What is needed is a neutral unemotional factual report, please. 

Share this post


Link to post

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:32 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I cannot understand why there is only partial information concerning the Jehovah's Witnesses and Watchtower Society Child Abuse accusations from around the Earth. I have just put a status on my FB page saying that : The one thing I have learnt in life is, that I don't know the truth about anything".  The reason for this is that there is always some doubt about things read 'online'. Are they true ? Does one want them to be true? Are my opinions correct?   So with that in mind I will continue with the information I 'have read online'. 

We all know that Child Abuse and Sexual Abuse accusations are, or appear to be 'in fashion' right now. In politics, in entertainment, and in religion. But Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be 'no part of the world', that is the 'world' that belongs to Satan the Devil. So it would come as a surprise then that from top to bottom the JW's are being accused of Child Abuse Earthwide. 

What I've noted so far : The Australian Royal Commission did a three year investigation into the JW org, most of which is available online to read. They found that since 1950 there were 1006 accusations of Child Abuse within the Australian branch of Jehovah's Witnesses, none of which were reported to the police or secular authorities........... In Canada there have been large court cases in Quebec and Ontario againse JW org..... A $66 million lawsuit against the religion's leadership is taking place.....  In the Netherlands 'Reclaimed Voices' foundation have set up emergency phone lines and have put out advertisements concerning victims of abuse within the JW org there. The 'hotline' had received 80 replies as of December 28th 2017..... In the UK (where I am) the Charity Commision set up an inquiry into the UK branch of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding child abuse / sexual abuse. I think this started with the Manchester New Molton congregation in 2014. The Charity Commision also set up an inquiry into the Watchtower Soc (WTBTS) here in the UK. In Feb 2016. The Org went to court to try to block the investigations but failed. A former elder from South Wales said there was instructions to elders to destroy all documents regarding child abuse. There seemed to be a cost to the Org of over £1 million which I presume is court fines and payouts. 

Then of course we have the USA. In 2014 a $10.5 million lawsuit against JW Org by Valicia Alston and others. In 2015 the Candace Conti case against Jonathan Kendrick. And in April 2016 the Watchtower Soc' remained defiant in refusing to hand over documents about the Child Abuse in the USA branch of the JW Org.  Now it seems (and remember I'm only going on what I've read) that the JW Org in USA sent out a letter in 1997, to all elders of congregations in the USA. The letter was a direct instruction to the elders to send in ALL documents and information concerning accusations of Child Abuse / Sexual abuse both current and passed. This was to be an ongoing instruction and all information was to be sent in special blue envelopes to Brooklyn. Now there are approx' 14,000 congregations in the USA, and the time period from 1997 to 2017 is of course 20 years. So it would seem that the Governing Body have 20 years worth of accusations concerning Child Abuse and Sexual abuse with in it's USA congregations. However, despite court action and direct instruction to the JW Org / Watchtower Soc', the W/T and JW Org still refuse to hand over the documents to the High court. In November 2017 a High court of California fined the JW Org / WT Soc'  $4,000 per day for not handing over the documents, and it seems the cost so far to the Org / WT is more than           $2 million. I cannot find out if any of this money has been paid or is still owing. 

One other point that I found interesting (providing it's true of course) is that the Governing Body has deliberately separated the JW Org, known as the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Each of these now has its own Legal Department. The purpose of this is to slow down all court proceedings because the Legal Dept from one has to write to the Legal Dept of the other for information, then the legal Dept of the other refuses such information etc. This is what caused the Supreme Court of California to impose the heavy fines on the Org. Basically the court got fed up with the 'clowning around of the JW Org.  

So to sum up: It seems that many countries, Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, UK and USA, have found and proved many cases of child abuse / sexual abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses and Watchtower Society. But what makes this worse is that the Governing Body of the Org' is deliberately withholding  the information about pedophiles within its ranks. Add to this that elders of congregations Earthwide are instructed not to inform their congregations about pedophiles within their congregation. And, congregation members are told not to report child abuse / sexual abuse within the congregations, to the Police or outside secular organisations. On top of this victims are not believed, because the Governing Body has made a rule that says there must be two witnesses to any accusation of abuse, which of course will not happen in the case of Child abuse or Sexual abuse.

About me : I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses until about a month ago.  After doing approx three months research online my conscience would no longer allow me to remain within the Organisation. How could I encourage other people to join an Organisation that allows Child Abuse /Sexual Abuse to continue unreported and unpunished within its ranks. There could be a pedophile within the congregation that I was part of, I would never know, because the Elders would keep it secret.... However, I do believe in God, whether His name is Jehovah, Yahweh or something else, and I am keeping my mind open as to how I will find the 'truth' of God's requirements. 

What i am hoping for is that some BIG media source will bring all the information together concerning all the Child Abuse / Sexual Abuse accusations against the Jehovah's Witnesses Org' and the Watchtower Soc' Earthwide, so that all info' is readily available to everyone. At the moment it all seems so 'bitty' and not organised. Yes there is info' online, but are the sources trustworthy. What is needed is a neutral unemotional factual report, please. 

I am glad to hear that you are not willing to give up on God. Many who find out the truth about the organization, that it is not Gods organization turn to anger and hatred toward religion and abandon God altogether. Here is a support site for believers leaving the jw religion: 

    Hello guest!

Share this post


Link to post

Civil authorities, law enforcement and the like will always be called if criminal activity is suspected, for example, if there's been an accusation of child molestation or anything pertaining to the abuse of child and or in other cases should anything happen to even adults, i.e. a man wielding a machete trying/attempting to access a church or someone armed with a gun trying to break inside a church with people inside, etc. They are far better equipped to decide what if any physical evidence and exculpatory evidence exists in determining the merits of the charges and what consequences should follow if such charges can be provably established and or set in place as for my examples, on how to deal with the situation at hand, preparation beforehand, safety, and the like. Not everyone who goes into a church or trying to access a church wants to hear a gospel of some sort, they come for "other" reasons, which can effect both children and adults, be it minor, disruptive, or something majority, tragic in nature, as we have seen already several months ago.

Usually, when people say such things of some groups and then are asked for proof, they almost always link you to hoards reports and or state lacking evidence to such; full of unproven accusations exclusively levied by ex-members, but that is probably the point, to beat the courts and the public into submission by saturation. 

Regarding JWs or Watchtower, there's the ARC (Australian Royal Commission) since you brought them up, they are accustomed to parroting the number 1,006 unreported (or covered up) so called persons who practice pedophilia. If the ARC had taken action accordingly,  the actual investigation in question, they would have long known that about 492 cases were reported by someone, or lacked sufficient evidence to warrant a report well before 2017 of March, when they were forced to acknowledged that they were wrong about the 1,006, but it would seem that anything to put the group in a negative limelight, 1,006 sounds much better. 

The ARC also acknowledged that between 2015 of August and 2017 of March, only 17 reports of child abuse emerged within the Watchtower group in Australia, two of which declined to report. 

So yes, the watchtower historically has and will probably continue to deal with child abuse within its ranks, but that’s not because of how they handle this or that or how they attempt to do things, it is because of this world we happen to live in where such an desire of being attracted to children exist, and if one cannot see that pedophilia is an issue with persons on a psychological level, than you do not know the world that you are a temporary resident in.

Pedophilia is all over, even us Unitarians are subjected to this, one of the Unitarian denominations had a pastor arrested in speaking to children online, having child pornography, and even threatening children online, saying he was going to or wanting to kill them, etc. Did it stop people from following a faith? Not so much.

As a Christian, we know that there is good people, and there is bad people in this imperfect world, the good will do what they can, but the bad will roam among the good and will always have an intent to do bad, lack of any care or shred of showing repentance for their treacherous heart has overtaken them, and they are eaten up whole by their ill-desires.

That being said, a church, a school, a business will handle things how they see fit, it is up to you to take things a step further if such groups handle things on their end, internally, that is why most of them advise you, yourself to contact the authorities. Even at times, even friends, depending on the person, who do not want to be put into the public view will advise the same thing and or handle the situation for you themselves, everyone different (for Bystander effect/syndrome is a real thing even in the realm of child abuse, not doing anything at all, so to speak).

You'd be surprised how those who analyze everything accordingly will say in their own response, yet they are, as always, attacked by an angry mob for it, then you have the Anti-Religion, who consider this a win regardless of what you tell them.

 

On 2/12/2018 at 8:32 AM, Matthew9969 said:

I am glad to hear that you are not willing to give up on God. Many who find out the truth about the organization, that it is not Gods organization turn to anger and hatred toward religion and abandon God altogether. Here is a support site for believers leaving the jw religion: 

    Hello guest!

Child abuse is everywhere and so is pedophilia, you and all people should know every man, every woman, every child, is and will always be imperfect until God changes that when the day comes for his Son to return to earth. For such things will not stop someone from following their faith whether you like it or not because Christians are aware of the times they live in. JWs are subjected to this, as well as any church, school, organization, business, child programs, etc. Also, it is something to note, that it is evident that some of these places tend to deal with the problem internally, at times do call for outside help, depending on the situation, the person looking into the situation, etc.

The desire to or be attract to children is an actual sickness, for some claim the origin of such appears at one's birth and develops overtime, for such is even a poison that effects Christians or newly converts who hide such a sickening desire.

Share this post


Link to post

Space Merchant, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I disagree with you. I was not only talking about the Royal Australian Commision, but also Canada, The Netherlands, UK and USA. And what about the countries that are not bothered about looking into such things ?  I really do dread to think what the Earthwide scale of child abuse is like within the JW Org. And why have the Governing Body of JW /WT gone against the law of the land in the USA by refusing to hand over the documents relating to child abuse accusations in America ? The scriptures say to obey the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with God's laws. I'm sure God would be happier to have JW Org cleared of pedophiles and cleared of accusations of child abuse. Plus it seems to be costing the Org $4,000 per day in fines which it seems amounts to over $2 million by now. In my opinion that money does not belong to the Governing Body to waste in that way. It would have been money donated to help with the Earthwide work of spreading 'the God's news of God's Kingdom'... And to say that child abuse / pedophilia is everywhere is just a very poor excuse. Now please read this carefully. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I believed that the JW Org / Watchtower Soc' 'was 'no part of the world'. I believed that the Org was completely separate from the 'world'. I based this thinking on Jesus' words that He was no part of the world and that His followers / disciples would be no part of the world. Hence when you and others compare JW Org to other organisations / religions /  bodies of people, it makes no sense to me. My point being, if God was using the JW Org for His own purposes, to educate people of 'all tribes and nations', to bring people together Earthwide into an ARK like situation, as an Organisation of people that would be saved through Armageddon, then why would God allow His Org to be so contaminated by disgusting behavior ? Jesus said the religious leaders in Jerusalem were like Whitewashed Graves, clean on the outside but full of dead men's bones. Is it then so with the JW Org ? The Governing Body of JW Org call themselves 'the faithful and discreet slave'. Note I say that they call themselves by that title. Whereas the scripture says 'Who really is the faithful and discreet slave'. Surely only God will decide who is, and God's decision would surely be made on the 'works' of those ones. If, as it seems, the Governing Body is hiding pedophiles within the Org', then surely they cannot be doing what God wants them to be doing.. You see my approach is trying very hard to be unemotional but practical..... If God has a purpose for mankind and for His creation this planet Earth,  then surely God would have an organisation to use, so as to tell everyone that will listen, about God's purposes and requirements.  God had Noah and his family build the Ark to carry them through the destruction of the early world. God had Moses lead His people from Egypt and through the Red Sea. God had his rules and regulations written down for the Nation of Israel. God had His religious leaders in Israel to offer up the sacrifices for the people. So it seems that God has always been organised and has always shown His people the right direction to go in. Doing so God has also kept His people away from the people of the 'world'. In fact God punished His people when they mixed with the people of the 'world' and when they practise false religion. So, now, surely God has a special Organisation of His own ? The question I'm asking is, is it Organisation Jehovah's Witnesses or not? Because if it is then it needs cleaning out very much. If it isn't then God needs to show people clearly whom He is using..... Space Merchant I can see we disagree on much. On religious beliefs as well as on the JW Org's methods of doing things. One of the biggest problems within the JW Org's 'methods' seems to be, or have been, that people were told NOT TO report child abuse to the police or outside authorities. So if nothing is reported then the police etc know nothing, hence nothing gets done.  It seems to have been left to the Elders of the congregation to act, and if the person being accused is an Elder then it seems (and is quite possibly so) that the other Elders take the side of that Elder and dismiss the accusation. Another point that the Org uses is a scripture, which I'm sure was never meant to be used in this way, which says that a person must have two witnesses to any accusation for it to be investigated. Now it would seem almost impossible for a child to have two witnesses stood by whilst they are being sexually abused by someone else. And I don't think it is a legal requirement in a court of law to have two witnesses that directly saw it happen, it's only a rule within the JW Org.  One last point, as this is getting too  long for one comment.  The Elders are told to keep it a secret if there is a pedophile / known child abuser within it's congregation. Hence members of the congregation do not know if there is someone like that within their congregation. but enough for now. We are looking at JW Org from totally different viewpoints so will not agree on things. Have a good day. 

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Space Merchant, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I disagree with you. I was not only talking about the Royal Australian Commision, but also Canada, The Netherlands, UK and USA. And what about the countries that are not bothered about looking into such things ?  I really do dread to think what the Earthwide scale of child abuse is like within the JW Org. And why have the Governing Body of JW /WT gone against the law of the land in the USA by refusing to hand over the documents relating to child abuse accusations in America ? The scriptures say to obey the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with God's laws. I'm sure God would be happier to have JW Org cleared of pedophiles and cleared of accusations of child abuse. Plus it seems to be costing the Org $4,000 per day in fines which it seems amounts to over $2 million by now. In my opinion that money does not belong to the Governing Body to waste in that way. It would have been money donated to help with the Earthwide work of spreading 'the God's news of God's Kingdom'... And to say that child abuse / pedophilia is everywhere is just a very poor excuse. Now please read this carefully. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I believed that the JW Org / Watchtower Soc' 'was 'no part of the world'. I believed that the Org was completely separate from the 'world'. I based this thinking on Jesus' words that He was no part of the world and that His followers / disciples would be no part of the world. Hence when you and others compare JW Org to other organisations / religions /  bodies of people, it makes no sense to me. My point being, if God was using the JW Org for His own purposes, to educate people of 'all tribes and nations', to bring people together Earthwide into an ARK like situation, as an Organisation of people that would be saved through Armageddon, then why would God allow His Org to be so contaminated by disgusting behavior ? Jesus said the religious leaders in Jerusalem were like Whitewashed Graves, clean on the outside but full of dead men's bones. Is it then so with the JW Org ? The Governing Body of JW Org call themselves 'the faithful and discreet slave'. Note I say that they call themselves by that title. Whereas the scripture says 'Who really is the faithful and discreet slave'. Surely only God will decide who is, and God's decision would surely be made on the 'works' of those ones. If, as it seems, the Governing Body is hiding pedophiles within the Org', then surely they cannot be doing what God wants them to be doing.. You see my approach is trying very hard to be unemotional but practical..... If God has a purpose for mankind and for His creation this planet Earth,  then surely God would have an organisation to use, so as to tell everyone that will listen, about God's purposes and requirements.  God had Noah and his family build the Ark to carry them through the destruction of the early world. God had Moses lead His people from Egypt and through the Red Sea. God had his rules and regulations written down for the Nation of Israel. God had His religious leaders in Israel to offer up the sacrifices for the people. So it seems that God has always been organised and has always shown His people the right direction to go in. Doing so God has also kept His people away from the people of the 'world'. In fact God punished His people when they mixed with the people of the 'world' and when they practise false religion. So, now, surely God has a special Organisation of His own ? The question I'm asking is, is it Organisation Jehovah's Witnesses or not? Because if it is then it needs cleaning out very much. If it isn't then God needs to show people clearly whom He is using..... Space Merchant I can see we disagree on much. On religious beliefs as well as on the JW Org's methods of doing things. One of the biggest problems within the JW Org's 'methods' seems to be, or have been, that people were told NOT TO report child abuse to the police or outside authorities. So if nothing is reported then the police etc know nothing, hence nothing gets done.  It seems to have been left to the Elders of the congregation to act, and if the person being accused is an Elder then it seems (and is quite possibly so) that the other Elders take the side of that Elder and dismiss the accusation. Another point that the Org uses is a scripture, which I'm sure was never meant to be used in this way, which says that a person must have two witnesses to any accusation for it to be investigated. Now it would seem almost impossible for a child to have two witnesses stood by whilst they are being sexually abused by someone else. And I don't think it is a legal requirement in a court of law to have two witnesses that directly saw it happen, it's only a rule within the JW Org.  One last point, as this is getting too  long for one comment.  The Elders are told to keep it a secret if there is a pedophile / known child abuser within it's congregation. Hence members of the congregation do not know if there is someone like that within their congregation. but enough for now. We are looking at JW Org from totally different viewpoints so will not agree on things. Have a good day. 

Unfortunately for you, this is no  mere opinion, I bring up what is true in regards of the days we live in, as Christians, to think of it as an opinion just makes one oblivious to the imperfections of this people and the things of this world (or the things that society has adopted that goes against scripture). Especially to multiple immorality and silliness of the societies in on this world (of the end times and tribulations) that considers DSM-5-TR (Pedophilia) as a sexual orientation that is to be accepted, pushed, endorsed and said by experts to parliaments.

I brought up the ARC because those who jumped on the ARC very late tend to ignore the facts, clearly accept the 1,006 cases as is without further research, mind you, even the non-religious are very well aware of this and how religions operate, in addition to that, there are also those observed the ARC late, especially those have already attacked said religion not just JWs. No one has never brought up the facts and the information, like I had just now, and those who do such will say the group or so-and-so did this and that just by claims that do not hold well without actual evidence and or unproven, never have you seen them speak of the real numbers regarding the ARC since 1,006 is their golden ticket.

Now then, it is understood that such takes place everywhere, as you mentioned. JW or not, there is no place in the world that pedophilia doesn't exist, just as it is a myth that DSM-5 (DSM-5-TR) doesn't exist, and anyone who says such clearly lives under a rock.

As for their so called "rule" that you mentioned, the Two-Witness rule, I am aware of it. I am also aware that this rule isn't exclusive to or only to the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it would seem that no one really reads into scripture or of those that practice "Bible Law" that well or the actions of early Church. Looking at their belief, the two-witness rule is a means for ensuring that accusations made against other within the Christian their church have a supportable basis for the claims made which requires they pass a minimal threshold before actions can be set in motion by church elders that potentially can have life changing consequences for the accused. The two witness rule is an internal mechanism applied exclusively within the congregation for internal judicial matters. For it is no different than church using confessions or those who apply the similar such as the "Canon Law", which is far worse than how JWs operate, for the Canon Law regardless of what you say or do, the one whom you confess to is prohibited from doing anything, since all parties are anonymous including the victim, in addition to no advise to seek outside law if one is subjected to Canon Law, which isn't biblical and requires no action whatsoever to be taken, not even advise to do something, for if should you kill a man, Canon Law keeps you anonymous.

As the law of the land goes in the eyes of religion, church organizations are known for handling the matters internally (judicial resolution of disputes Involving their members), the JWs are no different for they do the same thing as others but the only thing worse than what most Christians do is those that practice anything that equals to or similar to Canon Law. Regarding Christianity and is juridical handling of disputes and matters internally among the church, the police tend to get involve should the victim/family is told to or is advised to contact the police or if something escalates beyond control within that specific church, one has the choice to contact the police, especially when the obvious is thrown into play where there is somewhat of a huge disruption that break out in said church, a church take over or someone going bonkers in the church or on church grounds, or major issues involving such that would put the lives of the members at risk. No one is discouraged to call the police, which goes for every type of organization out there, not just religion itself.

Private matters as well as anything regarding child abuse, the church leaders of that church, or elders as you call them (whatever floats your boat), will do what they can to either handle the situation, go about looking for evidence on their own and advise you to contact the police, or just simply tell you to just contact the police, for no one is stopping you from doing so, and it is pretty much a cake walk for you already know who the suspected abuser, who he or she is and can I.D. him or her quite easily so that so and so can be apprehended without notice or question, which was the case with my faith, one of its denominations, a couple of months ago.

If not the elders, who are merely advisers and or shepherds as some say, you can tell a friend or a relative, you got several groups within your circle, with people who can help you right off the bat, especially if the abuser is within your household or family, you serve as a support system right there to take action or advise, school teachers or deans (some will not directly get involved though) and once again, no one is stopping you, but keep in mind, bystander effect/syndrome may come into play among friends and family, even those who are not part of said faith, for there has been situations whereas those who get involved are also the ones that end up getting hurt or taking a really dark action against the abuser(s) (vigilante justice), as well as encouraging such, for there are many examples of things in the past, i.e. parents going out of their way to plan out a cold bloodied killing of an alleged sex offender, mind you, they waited and when they got him, they killed him with a musical instrument, to be more specific, a Trumpet and I am sure the JWs, or any Christian faith, do not want to have vigilante justice with dark intentions on their plate (or a revival of avengers of blood with an actual intent to kill in a modern society who takes action in their own hands), for that will easily be more damaging vs the abuser getting arrested, as history shows us in some of the pedophilia cases thus far.

But Christians are subject to the civil systems and the laws of the land of which they dwell in, and God allows the people to govern themselves, which is clear and evident. As such, Christians are required to respect the law whether they agree with it or not as we see in Romans 13:1-7. However, while anything pertaining to the law have established judicial systems to resolve disputes, as for Christians themselves, when it comes to them they will and always will handle some things internally, if you want this abolished, than you have to take on the law and against the scriptures as such things are based on. Your next battle is those who accept the disorder as something normal, those who are the so called experts.

Christians are not perfect, and just like everyone else we have interpersonal and business relationships in which conflict can arise. Churches (collections of believers) also experience conflict, and sometimes things regarding members of the church, especially our when it comes to our children, whereas child abuse can become an issue when such is unexpected within a church. Christians understand that no one is without sin; it is how we go about resolving our sin that is important.

At the end of the day, it doesn't give the person the right, those who oppose a faith, to go out of their way to such persons in the streets, to attack them on such claim, in addition, to vandalism so to speak. Since the case is with the Jehovah's Witnesses, it doesn't give the oppose the right to go to these JWs, insult or belittle them, taking their literature and throwing it on the ground. In doing so, you fuel Christian infighting and the steel doors on Christianity will be breached heavily, thus the decline.

As for pedophiles, you must understand these mentally-ill people are subjected to a psychological disorder that is said to only originate with the someone for they are born with it. The best thing to do is keep them away from child so their urges do not overtake them, or if they already abused a child, to keep them away from children period, other times some have these urges and do not act upon the urge they possess, resulting in seeking help and or treatment, even attempt to go to churches to seek help, thinking it may help them, but for some, the urge is so great they are overtaken by it. Pedophiles are subjected to treatment and the like, however, nothing cannot help what they are born with, a demon that clutches the person while in the womb, as they say. It comes to a point where their inner demons takes them, thus becoming psychopaths in the process, which involves wanting to act out their urges and even wanting to kill a child or a minor; said victim they have access too. The price one pay for imperfection bought from Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden.

So again, not even an opinion, as a Christian, I see the world for what it truly is, imperfection, sin and death, immorality, sickness, war and violence, the whole she-bang and on top of it all, you have the real ruler of the world, as John 12:31, 14:30,16:11, as well as several other verses, importantly 1 John 5:19, informs us. Instead of a focused assault on a single group, learn to look into facts regarding the cases and claims, as I id with the ARC.

There are better ways to fight something, but going about it the wrong way will, as some Christians say, cause something you wouldn't want to happen fast and quick with somewhat of a small positive outcome in your prospective, in addition with a massive negative that will affect a lot of people, putting people of a faith at risk, which had already been made known in Detroit a couple years regarding the attack on all Christians itself. That being said,if you are victim, then go seek counsel, no one is stopping you, I even advise it, for counsel helps people cope with abuse, your anger is to be against the abuser, not against others who were either unaware of it or were even involved, for you as a person, have the choice to seek help and or call the police.

Share this post


Link to post
19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Back when dueling was legal, Fathers often solved the problem without a lot of discussion.

Depends, back in those days it was like this, but at the same times, things can get shady, and often more people involved, they played dirty, in addition to foul play, for the one who is doing bad will win over the guy who exposes him, and the bad guy gets out free without anyone going for him, or as you said, not being able to be in a discussion for his/her actions.

match-beginning-stock-illustrations_csp1

 

Nowadays, it is somewhat of the same, but a little more of this, a bit of he said, she said, blame games, lying, and a slew of other things. But the same thing, but with a lot of discussion.

Gc3Fuhs.gif

That being said, the Justice System itself is broken, double standard, kissing up to the higher man, etc.

But this goes back from what I have been saying in regards to child abuse/pedophilia, the justice system may at times fight against child abuse, but at the same time they tend to somewhat make it a bit legal, for as of recent news in regards to child grooming/marriage, i.e. a child, mainly younger girls, force to marry their abusers. Elsewhere, laws have been passed that will even get a non-pedophile arrested and charged as a sex offender due to strict broken laws. This is just the United States.

European areas have far more explicit things and craziness going within the underground society, and anyone who speaks of this is easily shut down - mainly a reliable source I know Jake of Blackstone Intelligence, to name a few.

If anything, one must fight the justice system if they have to (the reason why people consider this a better way), root out their flaws for allowing such to even take place and making those who also partake in child abuse get off Scot-free, which also opens doors for child abusers to infiltrate various groups like bugs to a light, wherever there is children they will find a way to get to them, they will find a way to obtain respect, a position and authority just so they can have it easy to gain access to children.

Religious temples, mosques, buildings etc are not safe, regardless of the denomination, schools, clubs and educational groups are not safe (most pedophiles tend to be female in these cases and are left off easy sadly), business that houses and or contains children are not safe either.

Since we talking about Jehovah's Witnesses, they have obviously been breached by the storm and it has caused them to stumble a bit and in a position to try and minimize such persons who manage to get in their faith and like other it is not an easy task to deal with anything in regards to child abuse - for some of these cases, like many, tends to take place by means of a family member.

Other times in all child abuse cases or any form of sexual/violent abuses, 9 times out of the 10 it is the man and or husband of the household who has done it - then again it is always the husband who did it in regards to any crime.

Then we have the double standards which is a whole other can of worms on its own when it comes to race, sex, class, wealth, etc.

Share this post


Link to post

You write much but say little. It's so easy to widen out and use blanket excuses to cover all. My only concern is the Child Abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation / Watchtower and Bible Tract society.  The Governing Body of those Orgs' say they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' as mentioned in the bible. Note I say, they say they are, and they expect all in the Orgs to believe them. They are proving themselves to be the 'wicked slave' that is also mentioned in the same scripture. The Child Abuse accusations are Earthwide about JW org and i don't think they are lies or just crack pots making things up for the sake of it. If each case of an accusation was immediately taken to the outside authorities then there could have been no cover up. People Earthwide that were in the Org are saying that they were told NOT TO TAKE IT TO THE OUTSIDE AUTHORITIES. When you can understand this then you might just get the sense of it all. How easy it was to keep it all covered up. Then also, the congregation members were not told of any pedophiles in their congregations. And it seems, that some men that were already being watched for being accused of pedophilia were given higher responsibility in the congregations. Add to this that the Governing Body refused to hand over the documents to the Supreme Court in California, whilst the Org ha handed over documents in Australia and UK, so why not USA ? Basically it stinks of complete cover up. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My only concern is the Child Abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation

That being the case,

On 2/13/2018 at 11:28 PM, Space Merchant said:

The ARC also acknowledged that between 2015 of August and 2017 of March, only 17 reports of child abuse emerged within the Watchtower group in Australia, two of which declined to report. 

 

This is by far the most significant fact to emerge from the ARC data. It is the one you should focus on.

Share this post


Link to post

@AllenSmith you misjudge me if you think I hate the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation. I left the Org because I could not in my conscience try to encourage people to join an org that has a serious problem with Child Abuse. However, having been part of the Org and also having a physical brother who is an Elder in a congregation, I do know a little about how it works. Having been threatened with being disfellowshipped and seeing first hand how the Elders rule over the congregation, I do know what I'm talking about. My information gained is not all from the internet. However, my personal feelings are that God must surely have an organisation here on this Earth, and the JW Org would seem the closest to doing what God wants. So, my hope is that God will cleanse His chosen organisation, if it is the JW Org, or whichever one He chooses... As I've said, in my opinion the JW Org is the closest one to doing God's will, so I presume God will sort it out in His own time. But that is why I'm only concerned with the JW Org. As for this stupid notion that just because Child Abuse is ripe the Earth over, then it becomes old news and not important. That is the danger of over generalising. That is another reason I'm only interested in the Org that i think God is trying to use.  I seriously think we are close to Armageddon, therefore it is very important to have an Org that people can trust. Whilst the JW Org is digging itself deeper into the mire over the Pedophilia issue then it will not and cannot be fully trusteed.... If the Governing Body  were trying to serve God properly then why are they refusing to obey the law of the land by refusing to hand over Child Abuse accusation documents ? If the GB have nothing to hide then why not come clean completely, which would then help the Org to move forward in God's work. Then also In my opinion they should review their ideas on certain scriptures to be more helpful to people, rather than just being dictators. Please remember that Jesus said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. I think the scripture at Matthew 12, v 9 through 12 is fabulous. Jesus basically says here that the Law was written as a helper and protection of the people, not a burden for the people.. I know that we are no longer living under the Mosaic law but the same issue applies. The Governing Body has made rules to govern the people within, and the Elders too have to follow those rules without question. But it seems that now some Elders are beginning to use their own conscience, and to think more on the scriptures and less on the Governing Body's rules. If it is not careful the JW Org will become divided within itself. I hope that does not happen, but i do hope the Org gets cleansed of it's problems before it's too late. 

  

8 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

That depends on what side of the spectrum you find yourself in. To the ARC, it was perfectly allowable to look the other way when it came to their government run detention centers that had, have, and will continue to have cases of sexual abuse. The Australian government went even further to make it illegal for the workers in those facilities to make a charge. They would receive jail time for being whistleblowers. Similar conditions exist in the UK, Canada, and some EU countries, that want to pass the buck to others, rather than face their own governmental failures.

Now in Australia? Clergy confessional still plays a big role by territory, so NOT ALL territories adhere to this mandatory reporting unless certain provisions are met!

You write much but say little. It's so easy to widen out and use blanket excuses to cover all. My only concern is the Child Abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation / Watchtower and Bible Tract society.  The Governing Body of those Orgs' say they are the 'Faithful and discreet slave' as mentioned in the bible. Note I say, they say they are, and they expect all in the Orgs to believe them. They are proving themselves to be the 'wicked slave' that is also mentioned in the same scripture. 

Share this post


Link to post
51 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That being the case,

This is by far the most significant fact to emerge from the ARC data. It is the one you should focus on.

Have you ever been a victim of child abuse ? I'll tell you for sure it lasts a lifetime. A person cannot remove it from their own mind. Only God will truly clean up a person's mind in the new world.... So, do you think a person is entitled to some sort of compensation during this life? And I'm not talking about the idea of someone trying to get lots of money out of it... But, If a person was disfellowshipped for making a complaint or report of being abused as a child, should they not be offered the chance of being reinstated with a 'clean slate'. Is it possible that in the past JW members were abused and then thrown out of the Org with no one to turn to ? Should those ones not be shown the love that God offers through Jesus Christ ?  And if what has happened in the past has ruined a person's life then maybe a small amount of money to help them in some constructive way ? Not massive amounts of money as has been in some cases, (in different countries around the Earth) which seems to have been just to shut people up. I keep coming back to the words of Jesus ' I want mercy not sacrifice '. It should not be about the 'rules', it should be about helping those that need the help. And to you too i will mention the scripture at Matthew ch 12, v 9 through 12. Jesus said at the end of this scripture,  'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the sabbath'. Do you get the sense of that ? He was saying it's not about the law, not about who was right or wrong, it's about showing love and empathy to those in need. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I left the Org because I could not in my conscience try to encourage people to join an org that has a serious problem with Child Abuse

They do not.

Or rather, they do, but it is far less serious a problem than that of anyone else.

That is the significance of the data from Case 54.

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Once again, aren’t you doing the same by condemning the organization with little knowledge?

 

It doesn’t matter if your brother is or was an Elder. My experience supersedes any trivial aspect of what people perceive the Watchtower to be. Not even an enthusiast Bethelite will EVER know what I know. So, your personal opinion means very little, especially since these recent abuse cases with Australia span from a period of 65 years, and people like you make it seem it happens every 30 seconds. I don’t BELIEVE YOU that your heart lies with the abused children as you put it, just to excuse your hate for the Org. I know people like you all my life, nothing changes in that regard.

 

And yes! I do mean HATE! So I’m not misjudging something that people plainly feel in their hearts but don’t have the guts or sincerity to admit. I’ve been around too many ex-witnesses, not to understand their ways.

 

Therefore, as compared to which OTHER organization? Like the ARC itself that didn’t want to investigate Australia’s government-run detentions centers that were willfully hiding the abuse from the public and threatened the Doctors, Nurses, Staff with prison time for being a whistleblower can you compare to the Watchtower. How many Elders were sent to a rehab facility like they do within the Catholic faith, for a problematic priest, rather than being excommunicated, can you compare the Watchtower with? I gave 1 example of a Catholic Father (Priest) that committed MURDER and the State of Texas allowed that priest to enter into this rehab facility with no prison time. It was ONLY after an investigative journalist found out, that this priest was finally brought to justice in 2017, after being free for 55 years and molested over a 100 children after the murder.

 

So, the Watchtower has nothing to hide. Only people like you, like to think so.

 

I think we must agree to differ. You keep going on about the ARC. What about the Charity Commision here in the UK. What about the Superior court of Quebec in Canada ? What about Reclaimed Voices in the Netherlands ? And what about the USA and the refusing to hand over the documents ? Then we have the IICSA here in the Uk that are most likely to act on what they know and have another investigation, whether joint with the Charity Commision or separately. Add to this the upcoming Protest in London in August, which they hope will go international.  

    Hello guest!

Then the very recent report in Devon Live  

    Hello guest!
 

This situation is not going away. But as you seem to be acting like God himself. knowing good and bad about everything, then there is little point me wasting my time talking to you. You keep pretending there isn't a problem within the Org. Keep kidding yourself. As for me,  I will wait on God to sort it all out. Then when i feel the time is right I will rejoin the JW Org. My prayers go to God daily through Jesus Christ. I ask him for direction and for His help in knowing what He wants me to do. I do not need people like you to tell me what to do.

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They do not.

Or rather, they do, but it is far less serious a problem than that of anyone else.

That is the significance of the data from Case 54.

As with Allen Smith, you too seem to want to generalise. If JW Org is God's chosen organisation then it needs to be kept clean and safe. It has to be a place where those that wish to serve God properly can have trust in the Elders and other congregation members. It is supposed to be going up to the mountain of Jehovah / Yahovah / Yahweh. It should be pure in it's worship and fair in it's dealings. As I've said before Jesus said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. Where is the mercy in Child Abuse ? And as I've shown in my comment above, this problem is not going away, so don't put your head in the sand and ignore it.  The JW Org has to make a clean sweep and do some rethinking. The Governing Body are always 'rethinking' scriptures, and they say they are the 'Faithful and Discreet slave class', so maybe they should start acting like it. They should do what is right in God's eyes not in men's eyes..  It's not all about rules and being the boss. It's about having real love for God's people. When a person is disfellowshipped they announce from the platform that person X is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. When a person leaves the Org, such as myself, they say person X is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'.  They do not say that I or others left the Org of our own choice.  I wonder why? Could it be that so many are  leaving of their own choice ? Or could it be that they don't want any member of the congregation to talk to me or others ? The scripture they use for the idea of shunning is based on a brother / sister that is deliberately sinning against God. So they won't say that i or others have' left the Org' because they know we have not sinned against God, but that we have found genuine reasons to leave the Org. Other congregation members are guided to think it would be wrong for them to speak to us, but there is no scriptural backing for that. Anyway enough, it seems that you are not interested in facing facts or in getting the Org sorted out. Be like Allen, keep dreaming. I will wait on God Himself to sort it all out. I hope that God shows me mercy as I also hope God will show mercy to those who have suffered wrongly within the JW Org.

Share this post


Link to post

Probably you have read the other threads and appreciated the significance of the 17 instances of Case 54 - that children in the JW environment appear to be ten times safer than in the overalll world. I have made that point. Others have, too.

To spotlight this is called "raising a straw man." It is raising a tangential argument and subsequently demolishing it in hopes that the halo effect will spill over and hide the main concern. Persons of critical thinking hate raising straw men. It is a major no-no. With regard to Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not want the faith compared to other organizations, where it will be seen as ten times better. They want them compared to perfection, where it will be seen to fall short.

Will you really go livid at the organization that has a prevention rate ten times better? What will happen when you approach Jehovah and tell him you are 'in' only when there is perfection?

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When a person leaves the Org, such as myself, they say person X is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'.

This happened because you were determined to go out with a splash, or someone talked you into doing it. It didn't have to be. You could have faded or simply desisted congregation activity.

You have let the liars frame your world for you. It is plain in every sentence you write. Ponder upon the JW record being ten times better than anyone else and then ask yourself - do you really want to hurl denunciations at it because it is not perfect. Hustle your rear end back to the Kingdom Hall and ask for readmiittance. It will not happen overnight, but it will reliably happen if you persist. It always does.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And as I've shown in my comment above, this problem is not going away, so don't put your head in the sand and ignore it.

Possibly not. But there is no reason to be a 'fighter against God' with regard to it and oppose the organization with a prevention record second to none. 

As you will know if you read the report, the current Watchtower policy is that no child is required to face an abuser. And a child may, in relating things to those investigating allegations, have any support person present it wishes, male or female. And that - the elders are very insistant on pointing this out - any child, family member, or other person has every right to report to outside authorities, and that the elders will do it themselves where mandated.

Share this post


Link to post

 

“Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”  Ezek 9:3-5

What happens after the that?  And where is God’s present sanctuary/”Jerusalem” found?  Ezek 9:5-11; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:14-17

Not all grieve over the detestable things in the organization but make excuses for them.  It takes the nations to impress upon Watchtower’s leaders to change their tactics with child abusers.  It is men, leading men; not God and his righteous decrees leading men who call themselves the “faithful and discreet slave”. 

Every comparison of the organization with all other earthly organizations is comparing all powers together in “Babylon”.  Rev 18:4-8

 

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley You talk such rubbish unfortunately. I didn't go out with a splash, i didn't need or want  any attention thankyou. I do find it quite fully that no one is allowed to disagree with you though.  I therefore presume you are an Elder or higher in the ranks. Why shouldn't i presume as you and Allen have made so many presumptions about me..... It makes me tired having to repeat myself so i will not bother. You and Allen obviously want to bury your heads in the sand, so be it. And as for your idea of me being a 'fighter against God'. That would be funny if it were not so serious. It's a bit like saying the Nation of Israel were God's chosen people so they were a hundred times better than the surrounding nations. Oh yes but, the religious leaders of the Nation of Israel at the time of Jesus, would not believe the truth and not give up their 'high places'. And of course they condemned Jesus to death. Now Jesus would have been seen as an apostate of course, and so would the disciples / apostles. Wow, going against God's chosen priests. The Pharisees, the Sadducees and scribes. The whole Sanhedrin. Now how wrong could that have been ? At that time you would have said they were 'fighters against God' just as (the apostle) Paul did. You see how things can easily be twisted ? For I am not a fighter against God, and that is why i want the truth to be known and justice to be done. I notice you mention 'the current Watchtower policy', but how many people have previously suffered, to have this now 'current W/T policy'.  We will have to agree to differ, and yes i want a cleaner JW Org, and I'm sure God does too. . 

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think we must agree to differ. You keep going on about the ARC. What about the Charity Commision here in the UK. What about the Superior court of Quebec in Canada ? What about Reclaimed Voices in the Netherlands ? And what about the USA and the refusing to hand over the documents ? Then we have the IICSA here in the Uk that are most likely to act on what they know and have another investigation, whether joint with the Charity Commision or separately. Add to this the upcoming Protest in London in August, which they hope will go international.  

    Hello guest!

With all do respect, this link you posted about this man, Neil Gardner, also known as the TheGreatApostate, was one of the very people who verbally attacked and insulted, in addition to leading an attack on 3 people on YouTube and Media, one of them who intervened on November 5th of 2017 prior to the protest in Warwick. The blame was pinned on JWs, however, only until Neil and the others rooted out this man, in addition to 2 others who lived in the Passiac and Orange county who defended him and the JWs for they were against church raiding and disruption, with Neil being among those who was on the attack.

I wouldn't use him as an example for even after the situation at Warwick, he spoke of the London event, which was not sitting well with others who are neutral with JWs or Christianity itself.

I spoke of this several months ago in a thread started by someone here in regards to the JW church disruption.

 

Mind you, the actions of the EX JWs didn't sit well with the non JW churches in the area, they backed out when the EX JWs called them up to help them out, for clearly the Christian churchgoers were nowhere to be seen before the videos were taken down.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Then the very recent report in Devon Live  

    Hello guest!
 

The  former Jehovah's Witnesses, and again as to what I have said previously, pedophiles (article spelled paedophile instead of pedophile) will infiltrate groups and sway their way into a position or trust with the people in order to feed their own sick desires. When the abuse became known the authorities were notified and the authorities took action based on the crime.

In addition to that, this was easily zeroed in to that specific congregation of church members in London, hence the victims.

In the end, the abuser has been dealt with.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

This situation is not going away. But as you seem to be acting like God himself. knowing good and bad about everything, then there is little point me wasting my time talking to you. You keep pretending there isn't a problem within the Org. Keep kidding yourself. As for me,  I will wait on God to sort it all out. Then when i feel the time is right I will rejoin the JW Org. My prayers go to God daily through Jesus Christ. I ask him for direction and for His help in knowing what He wants me to do. I do not need people like you to tell me what to do.

The situation can't stop nor will it go away. Pedophilia is rooted deep within our imperfections, the price of our early parents - for we know pedophilia is bad, and we also know it is a major mental illness that has an unknown root of origin, hence why pedophiles who know of their problem seek out aid from those trained in such field of study.

But yes, I agree on some things, for no group, organization, as well as the people in such groups, be it educational, religious, institutions, etc, no one is perfect nor can they strive to be perfect, what they can only do is do their best to minimize anything brewing among them and that's that.

For the day violence, sexual immorality, wars, death, etc come to an end, as well as the ending of child abuse that is on a global scale, it will be the day when all that is bad will be wiped out and hat is good shall remain for time indefinite.

In the mean time, there are people who stick to what is true and endure, as sad it may seem, endurance in truth is what keeps the people going, as for others who know the JWs tend to be strictly neutral with them - for any group that came out of the Second Awakening that continues to push closer to what is true even though at times they stumble, such groups like this some Christians do not attempt to bash or attack because in the end our actions is what God will see, for such actions can lead some to do drastic things, and eventually hatred, like the one who has posted that gofundme. For no one is going to go that far to take out a group and take out Christianity itself (which is happening in the UK and Asia).

That being said, all of us have to trend carefully, and endure because in the end, salvation can be easily be lost - we need to stand back up and keep walking and keeping ourselves in check and being careful as well as those around us.

In the end however, it is mainly the laws and the government that needs to be checked too, in some parts of the US, child grooming and marriage legal now, which will spawn far more pedophiles than one can realize. So the unchecked pedophiles that do not get their vile desires met in schools or religion, they will jump on this now legal opportunity, which spells danger for far more children in the states.

Share this post


Link to post

Hello, John. You have issue with what is going on now all this attention with child abuse cases, the outside authority getting involved and they are bringing to bear their outside influence which is making things somewhat uncomfortable. Are things being covered up? No! Are the instances of abuse being handled? Yes! But are they being done so by worldly standards? No! Can the authorities be called in by the victim? Yes! And as been stated if the only one privy to what has happened, where is the proof? There has been only an accusation and that carries much weight. If true the person is disfellowshipped, but what if this was a lie? The person with worldly authorities involved now has much more than anything you have brought up, to worry about. And why should you know what my past sins are? 

You said you left, it bothered your conscience. So you know something of scripture. Remember the life of young Samuel when his parents took him to the tabernacle to serve? During his time there the sons of Eli were very wicked, doing things immoral and evil. Do you think Samuel wanted to come home when his parents came to visit, knowing what was going on at 'Jehovah's house'? Who was going to clean this up? The very same person One who is going to clean this matter up if in fact it is a matter that is filth and dirt on his name. This is not a 'man's ' organization, but Jesus is overseeing this part of Jehovah's entire administration. 

I've seen this occur before, we have to weather this storm, follow what is presented not what we think should be done. That is what hot Dathan and others in trouble. These authorities want to set rules that will go against what scripture have set out for us. We will obey, but not what is against scripture. As long as we live in this system we will have these instances, we are an imperfect group of people trying to serve and worship the God of who created all life. We will make mistakes even those who take the lead, Paul and Peter, James and John were also imperfect and are no better than those in charge today. Have a great day.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, AllenSmith said:

Spoken like a true unreasonable person without wisdom! ̬

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

So, don’t think for one second you have the moral high ground! Especially coming from the UK in general. 9_9

What people need to realize is religious child abuse can't be stopped, in some cases it can be prevented a bit, especially in an imperfect world where child abuse and other vile acts run rampant and at times it is deemed "normal" by the general society, something people will find it hard to realize sadly. I, as a Unitarian, know that our denomination isn't immune to the likes of child abuse as well, with some being caught off guard of when it happens or the aftermath of it.

But Child Abuse in general is far worse in the UK, regardless of institution, and a majority of the abuse is done by a male, mostly a family man and or relative who does such things. I believe there was a bust on a pedophilia ring right under the noses of UK officials (obviously the corrupt among law enforcement and officials take part in the child abuse):

    Hello guest!

There were some grime things going on with that with children purposely being killed and or sacrificed, as they say.

    Hello guest!

I got more information, even videos of investigation in regards to child abuse (mental also with what the victim had to say), but it may seem a bit disturbing for some here -  for the victims spoke of not just child abuse, but the killing of other children and human and or animal sacrifices. This also includes some things in the US, which has not really be talked about.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, John Houston said:

Hello, John. You have issue with what is going on now all this attention with child abuse cases, the outside authority getting involved and they are bringing to bear their outside influence which is making things somewhat uncomfortable. Are things being covered up? No! Are the instances of abuse being handled? Yes! But are they being done so by worldly standards? No! Can the authorities be called in by the victim? Yes! And as been stated if the only one privy to what has happened, where is the proof? There has been only an accusation and that carries much weight. If true the person is disfellowshipped, but what if this was a lie? The person with worldly authorities involved now has much more than anything you have brought up, to worry about. And why should you know what my past sins are? 

You said you left, it bothered your conscience. So you know something of scripture. Remember the life of young Samuel when his parents took him to the tabernacle to serve? During his time there the sons of Eli were very wicked, doing things immoral and evil. Do you think Samuel wanted to come home when his parents came to visit, knowing what was going on at 'Jehovah's house'? Who was going to clean this up? The very same person One who is going to clean this matter up if in fact it is a matter that is filth and dirt on his name. This is not a 'man's ' organization, but Jesus is overseeing this part of Jehovah's entire administration. 

I've seen this occur before, we have to weather this storm, follow what is presented not what we think should be done. That is what hot Dathan and others in trouble. These authorities want to set rules that will go against what scripture have set out for us. We will obey, but not what is against scripture. As long as we live in this system we will have these instances, we are an imperfect group of people trying to serve and worship the God of who created all life. We will make mistakes even those who take the lead, Paul and Peter, James and John were also imperfect and are no better than those in charge today. Have a great day.

"Are things being covered up? No." Really. So did the GB refuse to hand over the documents to the court in California USA or not ? Did the UK branch refuse to hand over documents at first or not ? Yes it seems the UK branch handed them over eventually. Was there a serious problem in Australia or not ? Is the work being done by Reclaimed Voices in the Netherlands just all lies ?  Does the Supreme Court of Quebec have any grounds for a 'class action lawsuit' or not ? Was the two witness rule being used to stop progress on accusations by victims ? Is being disfellowshipped enough ? Past sins ? Are the actions of pedophiles 'past sins' or could it be that as some have mentioned, pedophilia is a mental illness and not controllable ?  And as for making sins known, the apostle Paul wasn't afraid to mention people's sins. 'A man having sex with his father's wife' I believe Paul said.... 

I left the Org for many reasons. 1. Yes it bothered my conscience to be part of an Org that would allow this to happen. 2. I could not go into the ministry and invite people into such an Org. 3. I did not want to get disfellowshipped for 'causing division in the congregation' as i would have been if I spoke about my concerns with others. 4. I thought and still think that brothers and sisters should be warned about what might happen to them in the ministry due to this situation. Basing this upon a recent happening in the Kingdom Hall which i regularly attended, where a brother was murdered last year. 

    Hello guest!
 . 

There are many other questions in my mind now. The GB say they are the 'faithful and discreet slave'. they also say that others of the anointed are not of the faithful slave class. Why should we believe them? The GB have changed the meaning of scriptures many times, the generation one being a main issue. Now if they are being guided by Jesus and the holy spirit, why would they make these important mistakes ? Also why would they refuse to be helpful in the cleaning up of the JW Org ? Surely it does bring shame on Jehovah to have his name associated with child Abuse ? 

"follow what is presented not what we think should be done". Then you are worshipping men by believing everything they tell you, and obeying their orders without question... 'Put not your trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs' (I think that is quoted right). I never follow what I'm told in such things unless it can be proved from scriptures.  And Jesus said 'I want mercy not sacrifice', meaning it's about God's word being a protection and about showing love and empathy. It is not about keeping an Organisation looking clean, 'like a whitewashed grave, full of dead men's bones'... And as for your comparison to the Apostles, well, it's laughable. The Apostles proved fully that they had God's and Jesus' approval and help. The Governing Body of JW Org in no way come close. The GB have only their own words to say they are the faithful slave class, they do not have any proof at all. 

I could go deeper, into the name Jehovah, but it's too late in the day. YHWH or in Hebrew properly HWHY from right to left. Why is it not Yahweh or as some say Yahovah or Yahowah ? The name Jehovah came from false religion and was convenient to use as people already knew it. But does that make it right ?

Enough. God Himself or Jesus Christ will judge me. They will look into my heart and they will know my complete life, so they will judge me on what they know about me and what the intentions of my heart are. They will know how I suffered child abuse, sexual. physical. mental, emotional, and how I still suffer torment from it all. And therefore they will see why i have taken my stand for truth.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

For I am not a fighter against God

Okay

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

i didn't need or want  any attention

Okay

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I do find it quite fully that no one is allowed to disagree with you though.

Now you've got it!

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I therefore presume you are an Elder or higher in the ranks.

Once again, you have nailed it. I am way way up there in the ranks and I neglect all my crucial responsibilities to spend oodles of time posting to malcontents on the net, some of whom are nincompoops. I am a veritable theocratic tweeting Trump - 

 

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Why shouldn't i presume as you and Allen have made so many presumptions about me

But @AllenSmith is even more lofty than me. I would not be shocked if he were the alter-online-ego of Bro Jackson, himself, working out his frustrations on a backwater internet channel that the most clean organization in the world is portrayed by the  ARC as among the foulest. To say nothing of the mysterious @Space Merchant.Where does he come from?

Come, come. This is the internet, the land of the liars. If you want people you can know and trust, go to a place where you can physically interact with them.

I think you are not being forthright either. You appear to have accepted the case 54 data that JW's have a better prevention record than anyone else. At any rate, you offer no pushback to it, though you do on other things. And ...

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I notice you mention 'the current Watchtower policy', but how many people have previously suffered, to have this now 'current W/T policy'

you acknowledge that the organization with the best record, though not perfect, is improving. So NOW is the time you decide that it is too foul a place in which to sully your  feet? There is more to you than meets the eye.

When God finds out about the few denarious' debt you will not forgive your fellow slave, what will he say about the 10,000 fold amount that you owe him?

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

And who leads you without the aid of Christ to guide you. When did Christ suggest a lone-wolf scenario?

You believe Christ isn’t guiding me.

You believe I’m a lone wolf. 

You believe God approved of 8 men self-appointing themselves as a “faithful and discreet slave”.  You do realize by eliminating all other anointed ones in this category, a designation made only by Christ when he arrives, they have set themselves into the position of a wicked slave….don’t you?  Matt 25:21 No other anointed one can fulfill that title.  They have assumed all glory and authority (that rings a bell…Luke 4:6) over all the “slaves”; and they wield it freely using their “muscle”/elder body.  That also helps seal the deal.  The anointed Body are not the shepherds.  Clearly, the wicked slave “eats and drinks with drunkards” - sharing spiritual “food”/doctrine with the false priesthood/elder body that is used against his fellow anointed “servants” for “beating” them into submission.  Matt 24:48-51

You are a very assuming person to believe God and Jesus have sanctioned an elder body not anointed to replace their own choice – the anointed priesthood and true shepherds of the sheep. 1 Pet 2:5,9  Do you really believe Jesus is okay with men’s replacement of his true shepherds that are members of his own Body? 

 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of Godwhich He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. Acts 20:28-31

“savage” – heavy, weighty, burdensome, severe, imposing, impressive.

“perverse things” - to distort, turn aside; to oppose, plot against the saving purposes and plans of God; to turn aside from the right path, to pervert, corrupt

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.”  Matt 7:15,16

“ravenous” – rapacious, a robber, an extortioner 

Jesus surely knew the imposing image of the GB and its elder body would have no problem fleecing the sheep with false stories and a false hope of salvation through an organization – a turning aside from the true source of salvation.  Acts 4:12  They are experts at blackmail; threatening with disfellowshipping their own “servants” for rejecting their made up stories.  Matt 24:48-51; Rev 13:1,4,7,11,15

The true shepherds are in existence and are guided by their Master, Jesus.  Which shepherds will you choose to be guided by, those who listen to extortioners who plot to shatter any power the anointed have left, throwing truth down to the ground; or those who listen to Jesus?   Dan 12:7; 8:12

Are you aware of the iniquities in Ezekiel that caused the Lord to “forsake the land" and call for a mark on the foreheads of those “sighing and crying”?

Ezek 8:5 – “Then He said to me, “Son of man, lift your eyes now toward the north.” So I lifted my eyes toward the north, and there, north of the altar gate, was this image of jealousy in the entrance.”

This is the entrance to the altar sacrifice.  “Furthermore He said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel commits here, to make Me go far away from My sanctuary? Now turn again, you will see greater abominations.” Verse 6

“And He said to me, “Go in, and see the wicked abominations which they are doing there.” Verse 9

There was both an “image” as well as activities taking place in God’s Temple.

“And there stood before them seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, and in their midst stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan. Each man had a censer in his hand, and a thick cloud of incense went up.” Verse 11

Were the priests present in the Temple?  No, “elders” had desecrated the Temple of God, blocking the entrance and not allowing approved sacrifices to be offered by God’s appointed priesthood.

Sound familiar?  Only if you realize that the Temple under Christ, (1 Cor 3:16,17) is the holy anointed priesthood, and an “image of jealousy”, the unanointed elder body, stands in, sits in, and tramples upon, God’s Temple. Matt 24:15; Rev 11:1-3; 2 Thess 2:3,4 So, along with the detestable practices of “shepherding” in the cases of child abuse among other judicial matters, God’s appointed priesthood has been shoved aside for an “image of jealousy” and its detestable activities.

I hope every elder, every JW, takes note.

Num 16:3-7,10,11,18,20,21,35,40   

    Hello guest!

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley firstly it's great to see you have asense of humour. 

Quote :-

"You acknowledge that the organization with the best record, though not perfect, is improving. So NOW is the time you decide that it is too foul a place in which to sully your  feet? There is more to you than meets the eye.

When God finds out about the few denarious' debt you will not forgive your fellow slave, what will he say about the 10,000 fold amount that you owe him?"

I'm not interested in who has the best track record. As I've said before the Nation of Israel would have had the best record compared to the other nations, but it didn't make them right in God's eyes did it ? To the point that God used 'the world' to punish His chosen people back then. God used Babylon, Egypt and finally the Roman army. God could have sent down fire from heaven to wipe out Jerusalem but no, He used or allowed the Romans to do the job. And so it may just be that God is using or allowing people of 'the world' to punish or straighten out his chosen people of this day. Back in the day the Nation of Israel was one nation basically in one place. Nowadays the JW Org is Earthwide so the punishment or sorting job has to be Earthwide too. Hence so many nations calling for reform within the JW Org. 

As for my timing, simple. I could not act on something i did not know about. I did months of research, yes online most of it, but it wasn't just a one day decision. If you won't accept my reasons that's your choice. I would suggest then, that you are judging me on your own personality or previous experiences. 

As for forgiving debts of others. It's not my place to judge anyone is it ? These sins of covering up Child Abuse are not against me, but are against God Himself and His organisation.. But then, it is my place to act on my conscience. Our conscience should be trained through use of the scriptures, and what use would that be if we didn't act on it ?

Daily i pray to God for direction and guidance. Ah, it would be so easy if He sent down an angel with a message wouldn't it.  If He were to tell me, do this or do that. But I get nothing. My feeling is though, that if God disapproved of me a lot, that he would have me forget all about Him and go out into the 'world'. I suppose I'm in what i would call 'limbo' (though i don't know the real meaning of the word) but what I'm saying is, I'm neither serving God properly in any way and I'm not in the world. I trust no human at all for spiritual guidance.  I do not believe that the Governing Body of JW Org is the 'faithful and discreet slave', and that knocks a big hole in it all. So many things that i was taught as 'facts' way back in the 1970's have now been dismissed as mistakes. That is not 'the light getting brighter' because in my opinion God  and / or Jesus Christ would not have allowed those mistakes to have been used as teachings.  

Oh well enough for now. God Himself has given the authority to His son to do the judging. I will be judged just as everyone else will. I'm hoping I will receive some guidance through the scriptures and hopefully through holy spirit. Only time will tell. Have a good day.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Do you think that when Revelation 19:19 takes place -

"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.

people online will say:

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And so it may just be that God is using or allowing people of 'the world' to punish or straighten out his chosen people of this day.

Do you really think the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies will say: "We hate God"? 

No. They will say:

"We love God. And even where we don't, we love people's right to worship if they want. It's just that these JWs are doing it wrong and must be stopped."

If JWs are not the godly people who are "everywhere spoken against" (Acts 28) and who suffer people "lyingly saying every sort of wicked thing against them," who would you say is?

I think it is not a good time to bail. Contrary to what I charged, you have said you are not a fighter against God and you did not want to go out with a splash. Okay. I'll walk it back. @The Librarian tells me often enough that I can be obnoxious. Why should I not take correction from you also?

But where do you find yourself now? You have expressed a desire to continue to worship God. Are you getting fine reinforcement to do that at avoidjw.com, or wherever you visit online?

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley Once again you make me laugh.  "Are you getting fine reinforcement to do that at avoidjw.com, or wherever you visit online?"  It seems so funny to me that you should think i need strength from any 'website'. Look, I know Armageddon is coming. I know we will all be judged individually....

I have taken my stand, repeat, my stand regarding the Child Abuse problem, and the future problems it may cause. I want brothers and sisters to be safe out there, and i think they should be warned about the situation, not have the situation hidden from them. 

You seem not to read what i write anyway, as i've given my position at this time in the above comment. But I'll copy and paste it here anyway..

Daily i pray to God for direction and guidance. Ah, it would be so easy if He sent down an angel with a message wouldn't it.  If He were to tell me, do this or do that. But I get nothing. My feeling is though, that if God disapproved of me a lot, that he would have me forget all about Him and go out into the 'world'. I suppose I'm in what i would call 'limbo' (though i don't know the real meaning of the word) but what I'm saying is, I'm neither serving God properly in any way and I'm not in the world. I trust no human at all for spiritual guidance.  I do not believe that the Governing Body of JW Org is the 'faithful and discreet slave', and that knocks a big hole in it all. So many things that i was taught as 'facts' way back in the 1970's have now been dismissed as mistakes. That is not 'the light getting brighter' because in my opinion God  and / or Jesus Christ would not have allowed those mistakes to have been used as teachings.  

Hope that helps to show you where I am right now. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem not to read what i write anyway, as i've given my position at this time in the above comment. But I'll copy and paste it here anyway..

 

I will get back to you on this when I get a little more time. I actually do like the way you 'man up' and take responsibility for your action - it commands a certain respect - even if I think it is unncecessary and unwise for you to take it in the first place, and I continue to recommend that you walk it back.

However, you actually did not answer my question. When there is the foretold attack upon God's people, described in Revelation, do you think some will dismiss it as God using the nations to discipline his own people? Will you be among them?

If so, how will you spot the actual persecution when it comes? For you know there will always be something to point to. The perpetrators will not simply do it on the basis of being mean.

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley Well first i need to be sure that the JW Org are 'God's people'. Then I hope to be back in the Org if God shows me mercy.

However the Big difference between the two types of persecution are,  being persecuted for serving God properly, or persecution for doing wicked deeds. I think that will be easy enough to see.

I had a thought and laughed but shouldn't have. 

Nation of Israel : 2 Kings Ch 17 v 17.   But Jehovah we didn't burn as many of our children as the other nations did. 

Hope you get the point. :) 

Talk later. John 

 

Share this post


Link to post

@AllenSmith True God does not 'NEED' anyone's help but He has used it in the past. 

Babylon, Egypt and Rome. All used to do the work of God. 

As for guilt, i think the Governing Body have proved how guilty they are in many ways. Are they still withholding all those documents from the Californian high court ? Or maybe they have squirmed their way out of it. Did they ever pay the $2.5 million dollars fine ? Using donations from congregation members. But they did make massive payouts to the two victims it seems. 

I'll add this again and see if you get the point :-

Nation of Israel : 2 Kings Ch 17 v 17.   But Jehovah we didn't burn as many of our children as the other nations did. 

It's not about comparisons of how much Child Abuse was committed within the Org. It's the fact that it was hidden for so long, and victims suffered just to keep the Org looking clean. Like whitewashed graves, full of dead men's bones. 

I like verses 8 & 9 of that Acts scripture. 

 "And God, who knows the heart,

    Hello guest!
 bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also.  And he made no distinction at all between us and them, ...... "

Unlike the Governing Body that say only those 8 men are the 'faithful and discreet slave'. Whilst all the other Anointed are nothing in their eyes. 

 

Share this post


Link to post

@AllenSmith Um, the UK branch handed over their documents. The Australian branch handed over documents. So did they do wrong in God's eyes ? 

You seem to act as if your Governing Body is God himself. Beyond questioning. Well not in my view. 

And it's not about legal matters because 'legal matters' in that sense are part of the world. It's about doing what is right in God's eyes. 

If it was possible for the GB to help the legal system convict pedophiles, and in that way help to make the JW Org cleaner than it is, then in my opinion the GB should have done as much as possible to help the legal system. 

As I've said before, if the GB and the JW org were being persecuted for following God's instructions then they should hold their heads high and smile, but if they are being condemned for assisting Child Abuse then how can they hold their heads high at all. Just by saying they are the 'faithful slave' they think that gives them the right to bend the rules of God. So who is putting who to the test here ? The GB are putting God to the test for sure. Well if you want to support that its your choice.

God didn't use the Romans to punish Jesus, it was the Nation of Israel that condemned Jesus to death.  God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem, whereas he could have used fire from heaven, as in Sodom & Gomorrah. 

'because you who pass judgment do the same things' But i don't do them nor do i support those that do do them. Hence I'm not guilty of those things and have proved it by leaving the Org as soon as I had proof enough for my conscience to act. You see, i took action that you do not like. It seems that you are so annoyed that I would dare to question your GB. Why do you worship them so ? They are only men. Put not your trust in earthling man...

As for legal matters, they can so easily be misused. An honest man that serves God well will know right from wrong. Your GB it seems has no conscience or Godly devotion. They are only interested in winning cases, not seeing justice from God's viewpoint. They do not care for those that have suffered, hence those that have suffered HAVE to take legal action and involve the 'world'. For those that have suffered and those still suffering the GB and the Elders show no love or empathy. 

Go your own way, do your own thing, it means nothing to me. Carry on serving your Governing Body. Carry on believing that the GB are the 'faithful slave'. God has given Jesus Christ the authority to judge us all, and he will do it fairly.

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

You have a serious psychological problem with leaders in general.

Surely you know that you become the slaves of whatever you give yourselves to. Anything or anyone you follow will be your master. You can follow sin, or you can obey God. Following sin brings spiritual death, but obeying God makes you right with him.  (Rom 6:16 )  Now do you think I am trying to make people accept me? No, God is the one I am trying to please. Am I trying to please people? If I wanted to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.  (Gal 1:10)

God paid a high price for you, so don’t be slaves to anyone else. (1 Cor 7:23)  Remember that you will receive your reward from the Lord, who will give you what he promised his people. Yes, you are serving Christ. He is your real Master.  Col 3:24

16 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

and that you're NOT into obeying his instructions to be submissive, obey, obedience to those in authority

Jesus said, “Their worship of me is worthless. The things they teach are only human rules.’”  Matt 15:9

 I say this because you are even patient with someone who forces you to do things and uses you. You are patient with those who trick you, or think they are better than you, or hit you in the face!  (2 Cor 11:20)

(ERV)

The organization is not my mediator, nor should it be anyone else’s.  I think that is enough scriptural proof to show you, I have no other Master that I am submissive to. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.

I pray you open your eyes, and perceive beyond the physical powers in Satan’s world.

“And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.” Rev 19:19

Earth” has always referred to God’s people under covenant and represents the anointed today.  Jer 25:29,30,34; Matt 23:34,35

 “kings of the earth” are under Jesus’ rule:  John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.  To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.  Rev 1:4-6

Jesus is not involved in politics; he wasn’t when he was on earth and he isn’t now.  – “Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”  Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” Matt 4:8-10 (Luke 4:5,6)

His faithful “kings of the earthare not of Satan’s world.  John 17:16  (John 8:23)

 “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” John 18:36

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6:12

Why should Armageddon be any different?  It is not fought on the worldly front, but between “kings of the earth”/anointed who are at odds with one another, and is happening now.    Jesus’ focus is on those who either obey him or disobey him  -  the “kings and priests” that he rules over.  1 Pet 5:9,10

 “And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.”   Rev 19:16

There are faithful “kings of the earth” – “And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall
reign on the earth.  Rev 5:10

As well as unfaithful “kings of the earth” who are heavily influenced by Satan’s world; falling for his tempting offer for power and prominence. And if influenced by Satan, what comes out of their mouth is false doctrine.  John 8:44; Matt 7:15-20

”Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.”  Rev 13:11

This beast is a false anointed, composite “prophet”.  It works in tandem with the Wild Beast from the Sea.  Rev 13:12;19:20

“And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.”

Can you see this?  Jesus’ “kings” are at war in the spiritual realm; manifested through teachings, either true or false.   2 Thess 2:9-12

The false prophet/Beast of the earth “inspires”/breathes spirit/spirit-directs “life” into the Beast of the Sea…which comes against the anointed ones.  Rev 13:15,7

What “image” do you know of, that is “spirit-directed” and run by anointed ones?

Those that are spiritually “killed” (disfellowshipped) by the Wild Beast for refusing to serve only Christ, may become sealed into his “army” to fight against the unfaithful, spiritually immoral “kings of the earth”.  Rev 13:15  

Do you see a political nation in the world that kills the anointed ones that it has come against?

Just look at Rev 1:4-6 and it will tell you who the “kings of the earth” are.  The definition doesn’t change through the various scriptures about them, in Revelation.

Better stop here.  I fear I’ve lost you.  You ask,

Do you really think the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies will say: "We hate God"? No. They will say:"We love God.

And they do. 

“And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Rev 6:15-17

“But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.  The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 2And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Rev 21:22-25,27

Still think the kings of the earth are the political rulers?  What would they be doing in the Temple?  1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22

Armageddon is the battle between faithful kings; refined, cleansed from Satan’s lies and who speak truth in Christ vs. kings who have transgressed the covenant, dominated their brothers as a “wicked slave”;

and all of them – are anointed. 

Share this post


Link to post

Two years ago a report said:

“in family courts throughout the [United States], evidence that one of the parents is sexually or physically abusing a child is routinely rejected. Instead, perpetrators of abuse are often entrusted with visits or joint or sole custody of the children they abuse.”

Read it here:  

    Hello guest!

but don't read it unless you are prepared to get very sad and very angry

The point is that the ones you hang out with online will have you believe that "handling an child sexual abuse case properly" is key to protecting children. Read the report and you will read case after case where it turned out to be exactly the opposite - reporting it to the authorities led to more abuse of the child, sometimes at the cost of its life.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Your GB it seems has no conscience or Godly devotion.

This accusation is too stupid to countenance. How can you be so dumb?

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

They are only interested in winning cases, not seeing justice from God's viewpoint

So you have put your trust in the human system of courts as the ones who see justice from God's viewpoint! Is your confidence in human justice as strong after reading how the family courts routinely screw up what is put in their lap?

One lesson to be learned is to value the conscience and godly devotion of the GB that has maintained an organization that is 90% less likely to originate cases of abuse that the courts may screw up when it is handed over to them. Bizarrely, you seem to not care at all about this. You seem to delight in the prospect of taking down the people who have ten times the success rate in prevent child sexual abuse in the first place. Seen in this light, it is YOU who are a friend of child sexual abuse. YOU malign the people who best prevent it in favor of a human justice system that may protect children after the event or may screw them up even worse.

Legal tactics and the court system have been discussed at length on other threads so I will not revisit them here. Go there and look them up. However, in a nutshell, might there be a reason that the Society has not quickly kowtowed to a given legal demand? I think you said it yourself:

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for legal matters, they can so easily be misused

They certainly have been previously - on a nationwide scale - as evidenced by the Salon article, despite the fact that you appear to have absolute confidence in them.

You are hanging out with single-issue people, and single-issue people of any stripe will distort your world view. Single-issue people usually become those who 'cannot see the forest for the trees.' You are particularly vulnerable to this (more on this later, perhaps) by reason of being an abuse victim yourself.

Because we are in the last days (I fear you are already walking back on this) there are literally thousands of atrocities to choose from and each of them generates its own batch of single-issue people - usually the ones who have suffered acutely due to that issue. To focus on one so intently so as not to appreciate anything else will only mess you up.

I am writing a book on the persecution of our brothers in Russia. The media is rabid against Witnesses there, and reports against them all the time. One typical article slanders them non-stop, as low beings who “wet in the toilet,” would “clog your brains,” do “dark things through Jehovah,” and as to your money, they would have you “give the last.” The Supreme Court has ruled that parents can be stripped of parental rights for involvement of children in the sect. 79% of all Russians agree with this. (it has not been reported as happening yet, but the legalities are in place)  Apostates were very active as prosecution witnesses, in full knowledge that they might be sending family members to jail, and certainly their former friends. This, even though pedophile accusations are not at all a concern over there - they have plenty of others.

    Hello guest!
   (use AI to translate)    and

    Hello guest!

My point is that you, over time, will come to agree with them fully. We are who we hang out with. You say you are conducting a fine investigation as to who really has the truth. I would say to wrap that up quickly if you can because the time's they are a 'changing.

You have spoken of the pain of abuse, of how current victims might be helped, and how you prayed and got nothing. These are worthwhile points. If you can avoid for a time rolling with the pigs who would accuse the GB of sponsoring child sexual abuse even though they prevent it to a degree ten times better than your current heroes, I will address those things.

If you cannot, I will throw up my hands and say he has chosen his new family - he is fully vested. He has volunteered to be a lieutenant of the army of kings of the earth attacking with the beast. He is a 'reformer' and since they will not reform on his terms, he will see them destroyed. Time is not unlimited. No sense in spending time trying to dislodge his grip, for he just tightens it further.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Child abuse is sometimes a cultural construct.

My family grew up in the Appalachian coal mining areas of West Virginia.

I remember when I was a toddler, still in diapers, my Father made me go into  the horizontal coal veins too small for him to get into ... and holding a candle, I had use a plastic spork to dig coal, to bring lumps of coal carried in my diaper, back to the main shaft.

Those were good times ... me and dad, a half mile below the surface, working together, filling up rope attached wicker baskets which my mom would pull to the surface by hand.

We would trade a bushel of coal for acorns to feed our pet pig, who only had three legs.

Covered in coal dust, we would sit there in the dark, lit by my single candle, and share our B.L.T. sandwich.

Good Times!

Share this post


Link to post

... after Dad got black lung disease, we rented some bottom land near the river, and with a two handled post-hole digger, supplied Home Depot with post holes for a few years ... but after a particularly violent thunderstorm, a river of mud wiped out our home, and the entire stockpile of post-holes we had dug.

We  considered it a mixed blessing, for at least we had mud pies to eat.

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You know, as much as I think James is the plague personified, every once in a while he offers up an absolutely precious vignette of life.

Yeah .... I grew up before vaccinations, which we did ourselves  with muddy sharp sticks, and even so, I got every "childhood disease" known to man.  The Health Department put a QUARANTINE poster on the front door, so I would barefoot at the age of eight, sneak out the back window to the top of an oil tank , and drop to the ground into piles of broken Coca-Cola bottles, the impact spreading disease and vermin that fell off, leaving a trail of blood to the community playground, where we would swing cats in buckets in our version of "horse shoes", which is a whole other subject.

The concept of child abuse was totally unknown.

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley "You are hanging out with single-issue people, and single-issue people of any stripe will distort your world view. Single-issue people usually become those who 'cannot see the forest for the trees.' "...... Look in the mirror my friend. It seems to be you that have the single issue here. It seems to be your thought that the Governing Body are right no matter what they do. Do you worship them that much ?  

My thought, the GB should probably be removed and replaced........ I have a thought that some of them have been removed in the past but I've not gone deeply into that. There are other things in my life to do. 

And once again you generalise, this time concerning the courts. If the courts have to deal with millions of cases of abuse, not just the ones from JW Org, then that is a generalisation. The courts must have case queing up out the doors and round the block... 

However it does not make it right for the Governing Body to think they are so supreme as to misuse their power and get away with it.

One more point, as it's just come back to my mind, this idea you have that I'm a 'follower' of something or other. I think your mind or your emotions  is / are using this false idea as an excuse to accuse me.. It seems to be the only thing you can latch onto. I've told you many times, so it seems pointless telling you again, but I'll try to reason with you. I AM NOT A PART OF ANY ANTI - JW OR ANTI WATCHTOWER MOVEMENT. I only want the Organisation cleaned up. And if the GB are so high and mighty and think ( just as a wicked slave would think) the master is delaying in coming, and then mistreat the 'domestics'... This is made so clear in God's word yet you seem to ignore it. 

"One lesson to be learned is to value the conscience and godly devotion of the GB that has maintained an organization that is 90% less likely to originate cases of abuse that the courts may screw up... " Um, two point here. 1. The GB doesn't have the quantity of cases to worry about. 2. The only known cases within the JW Org are the ones already 'out there'. It's a bit like saying there is no water, but you haven't yet searched for any well. JW cases will only be known once they are made known to the public. Otherwise how will we know about them. Whereas these court cases you keep going on about are already 'out there' and everybody knows about them. The term 'tip of the iceberg' seems to fit in nicely here. Remember that in most of the countries I've mentioned, investigations are either just beginning or are ongoing, so it's too soon to judge how many cases have been hidden or not dealt with properly.

I laughed, sorry, when i read, 'I'm writing a book'. That always hits a sour note with me, but maybe I'm misjudging you. So why are you 'writing a book'... Most people write books to make themselves money or to gain fame. 

I actually discredit your comments when you tell me I'm 'rolling with the pigs' and you say they are my heroes, because that means you misjudge me. And as we seem to agree, we are not fit to judge each other. 

God will use whomever He chooses to use, to do whatever job He wants them to do. If God chooses to use people of the world to clean up His chosen Organisation, because that Org will not clean itself up, then so be it. Who are we to question it ?    

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 1909: ἐπί

d. figuratively used of things, affairs, persons, which one is set over, over which he exercises power; Latinsupra, our over (cf. below, B. 2 b. and C. I. 2 e.): ἐπί πάντων
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
 (where ἐπίδιά and ἐν are distinguished); καθίστημι τινα ἐπί τίνος
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
 (
    Hello guest!
; 1 Macc. 6:14 1 Macc. 10:37, etc.; Plato, rep. 5, p. 460 b., etc.); δίδωμι τίνιἐξουσίαν ἐπί τίνος
    Hello guest!
ἔχω ἐξουσίαν ἐπί τίνος
    Hello guest!
βασιλεύειν ἐπί τίνος
    Hello guest!
 R G Trbrackets; 
    Hello guest!
ἔχειν ἐφ' ἑαυτοῦ βασιλέα
    Hello guest!
ἔχειν βασιλείαν ἐπί τῶν βασιλέων
    Hello guest!
ὅςἦν ἐπ' τῆς γάζης, who was over the treasury, 
    Hello guest!
 ἐπί τοῦ κοιτῶνος, he who presided over the bedchamber, the chamberlain, 
    Hello guest!
 (Passow, i., 2, p. 1035a gives many examples from Greek authors (cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word A. III. 1; Lob. ad Phryn., p. 474; Sophocles Lexicon, under the word); for examples from the O. T. Apocrypha see Wahl, Clavis Apocr., p. 218a).

“And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall 
reign on the earth.  Rev 5:10

10  and you made them to be a kingdom

    Hello guest!
 and priests to our God,
    Hello guest!
and they are to rule as kings
    Hello guest!
 over the earth.”

Bit of a difference isn't it ? 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

“And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall 
reign on the earth.  Rev 5:10

10  and you made them to be a kingdom

    Hello guest!
 and priests to our God,
    Hello guest!
and they are to rule as kings
    Hello guest!
 over the earth.”

Bit of a difference isn't it ? 

Watchtower’s Greek Interlinear uses “upon”:

Rev 5:10  - 

    Hello guest!

RNWT – “and you made them to be a kingdom

    Hello guest!
 and priests to our God,
    Hello guest!
 and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

There is quite a bit of difference.  Makes you wonder why they changed it in their Bible.  At least it should make you question their intentions.  The GB have themselves in mind; the higher they believe they can ascend, the bolder they become in falsehoods.  

“The KJV translates Strong's G1909 in the following manner: 

    Hello guest!
 (196x), 
    Hello guest!
 (120x), 
    Hello guest!
 (159x), 
    Hello guest!
 (41x), 
    Hello guest!
 (41x), miscellaneous (339x).”

The “144,000” are a “new creation”.  The corrupted present “heavens” and “earth” (God’s fallen anointed ones) will be completely dissolved.  2 Pet 3:7  The new heavens and earth (Rev 21:5; 2 Pet 3:13) are the “new creation” – both spirit and flesh.  Anointed priests are “messengers”, which is the meaning of “angels”. Mal 2:7; Matt 22:29,30; 1 Pet 3:22; Eph 1:22; Heb 2:5,16,8,12; 12:22,23; Luke 10:20; Rev 1:20; 8:2,6; Josh 6:4  

    Hello guest!

Anointed ones can be “registered in heaven”, while on the earth by being “sealed”; thus, they are not only part of “heaven” but rule on the earth as “kings”.  Luke 10:20; Heb 12:22,23

“Now Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran. 11 So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. 12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”  Gen 28:10-15

Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafteryou shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”  John 1:49-51

Spiritual “Israel” are the descendants of Jacob, who saw the vision of the ladder reaching to heaven, and whose descendants will be as the dust of the earth. And it will be his descendants who would be ascending and descending on the "ladder"/stairway.   In order for that to occur, the “144,000” must be a “new creation”; able to move between heaven and earth.  2 Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15

Wt. 14/11/14 - ON Pentecost of the year 33, Jehovah made a historic change. He created a new nation called “the Israel of God,” or spiritual Israel. (

    Hello guest!
) Jehovah used his holy spirit to select the individual members of this nation. Paul wrote that those in this new nation do not need to be circumcised as the descendants of Abraham did. Instead, their “circumcision is that of the heart” by holy spirit. —
    Hello guest!
.

“The tribal arrangement in Israel was based on descent from the 12 sons of Jacob. IT-1

“John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 “bought from among mankind.” —

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
.  IT-1

The “144,000” are the Bride that “descends out of heaven” as “New Jerusalem” (Rev 21:9,10)

    Hello guest!

“Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.” Rev 21:12,13

The Watchtower misleads all JWs with the deceptive teaching that the anointed will only be ruling from heaven. A good King not only rules over the people, but serves their needs. This is God's plan for the holy priesthood to serve and teach the people, in the same manner as the priesthood served the people in the nation of Israel.  Heb 8:5  

 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”  Matt 20:25-28

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I laughed, sorry, when i read, 'I'm writing a book'. That always hits a sour note with me, but maybe I'm misjudging you. So why are you 'writing a book'... Most people write books to make themselves money or to gain fame. 

 

It is amazing! I can’t sneak anything past you. You have hit the nail on the head! I am writing a book because I want to be

F. A. M. O. U. S ! ! !

@JW Insider,!!! Run to the art room and fetch me a picture of a brother with puffed out chest thumbing to to the yacht and mansion behind him and the piles of MONEY (but no bikini-clad woman, for this IS a brother and we ARE talking a family publication.

I want that brother to be   ME!!! 

Swimming Pools!

Movie stars!

Sheesh. I’m writing a book for the same reason anyone writes a book – because I have a story to tell. Have you ever been to a library? There are a lot of them in there. I want to put one there as well.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

JW cases will only be known once they are made known to the public.

This is true with anyone! What is wrong with you? 

There has never been any question from the ARC or anyone else that they were getting the right numbers. The only reason they have any numbers at all is because Jehovah’s Witnesses track wrongdoing so as to punish it and warn others as necessary. No other faith even attempts to ensure that members should apply what they learn!! No one else goes there.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you worship them that much ?  

Jehovah’s Witnesses worship the Governing Body in the same sense that passengers on a plane worship the pilot when they refrain from kicking in the cockpit door to and grabbing the controls. This is not hard to understand to anyone who has not mentally made himself a ten-year-old!!

It is like when the reporters ask Tillerson "Did you call the President a moron??!!!" and he says "I'm not going to dignify that question with an answer" because he knows that if he says no, they will keep pressing him until he says yes, and if he says yes, they will run off with what they think is the story of the century!!!  even though people routinely call each other morons - whether seriously or in jest, and it means nothing!!

"Worship the Governing Body" my foot!! I mean, there is only so much you can do with a person determined to be stupid!!

It gets worse.

Punishment is fine – for child rapists no punishment is too great, but prevention is obviously the higher priority. It looks like every tenth person on the planet is a pedophile, so punishment, even when you do it right, only goes so far in solving the problem. And Jehovah's Witnessed DO punish. Quite severely when called for. But their way doesn't dovetail with the world's preferred way and THAT is what is being resolved. It is also the ONLY CONCERN John has!

I am so done with this fellow! He does not care about preventionhe has made the point over and over again. He only cares about shaming people and revenge! (on Witnesses) He wants to punish it after it happens but does not seem to care about if it happens in the first place!!!

He wants revenge! He wants to shame people! He could care less about stopping child sexual abuse!! That's not his thing.

Enough!

I am willing to disobey counsel in certain instances and engage with those who have fallen under the spell of single-issue fanatics, even if some of them also embrace apostacy.

But there is no way I am going to engage with one who would encourage pedophiles!!! He sees how it is being stopped to a ten-fold degree and it doesn't interest him at all!!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
21 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you see a political nation in the world that kills the anointed ones that it has come against?

wall of text.

I can't help but see you like mixing verses again, quoting, but vague in the realm of hermeneutal interpretations whereas the eyes can see, in addition to total discernment.

That being said, there is a portion of the government that is against several other groups of people, this includes Christianity, even though I am not a fan of the Trinitarians/Modalist, the New Agers, and the mainstreamers, etc, this so called the Deep State (Shadow Government) is indeed a major threat to everyone -  especially with what went down with Syranic and Aramaic Christians in the Middle East, and since the topic is about Jehovah's Witnesses, the masterminds behind the Russian Ban, which reinforced of what has been talked about since 2016 to 2017 and onward, the State Duma and the like which swept the country by storm; now already predicted by some which is now a true reality, for instance the Russian Election of this month.

The effect is worldwide friend, and it will come for everyone and everything, some will be taken by surprise, some will be aware, some will be easily persuaded by such persons.

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley You seem to repeat the same old rubbish. You tell lies and twist things so i can see why you so love the Governing Body. You have so much in common. I don't even think you are a brother in the JW Org. I think you are just a trouble maker. 

All your lies and rubbish do not fool me however. I can see through you. 

The Governing Body does not care about it's members of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. They do not care about the amount of Child Abuse within. They did not want to prevent it in the past and do not want to prevent it now. All they want to do is look after themselves. Serve them if you want you hypocrite. Worship them if it makes you feel good. Give your love and devotion to them and not to God Himself, and then wait on judgement day to find the result. Jesus Christ will know your heart, your desires, and your motives. you may fool some people but you won't fool God or His son. 

you've come back to this stupid stupid idea that JW Org is ok because it does not have AS MUCH Child Abuse as other organisations. and like i said before, would the Nation of Israel have said to God "We did not kill as many of our children as the other nations did ". You hypocrite. you have no idea what Child Abuse is like. Go worship your Governing Body. 8 men, yes MEN, when the scriptures tell you "Put not your trust in earthling man". You forsake God, Jesus Christ and the Bible, and replace it all with 8 MEN. 

Your stupid reference to the pilot of an aeroplane has no similarity at all. A pilot does not tell you how to live your life. A pilot does not try to take the authority away from God and mistreat millions of people, like a wicked slave class. 

As for your book, I think you are looking for recognition through the lies that you tell, and to make money of course. Every writer hopes to make some money from their books... And there will probably be some people with little brain power that will buy and read your rubbish... Enjoy whilst you can, Armageddon is getting closer each day. 

As for apostasy, it means nothing.   Jesus was an apostate of the Jewish religion according to the Jewish religious leaders. The early Christians were also apostates to that same religion, hence Saul (who became Paul) was trying to get rid of them all..... Apostasy just means leaving a religion that you once followed... However it does not mean leaving God or Jesus Christ. 

As for encouraging pedophiles, well your Governing Body must be hiding them for sure. To pay out so much money so as not to release those documents, says quite a bit. Big payoffs to those two victims in America. For nothing, just to give away money, I don't think so ! Go back to sleep and dream on 

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@James Thomas Rook Jr. If you don't care about Child Abuse, why don't you just say so ? 

Child Abuse is a major issue and even if someone does not show such reaction to it, in their hearts they already know it is bad, despite not expressing it on places like the internet or a forum. For people will react the way they do, if they want to act tough at times, but in reality, it hurts them despite not expressing it on a social platform.

But I have said time and time again, no one is perfect, no one is pure, for in the realm of sexual immorality and child abuse it is at a global scale, and no matter the organization or the institution, child abuse will exist in some way, shape or form, and the abusers will always find a way to infiltrate such places, especially in, as the JW friends put it, worldly view, whereas pedophilia is deemed okay and normal, some take child abuse as a literal joke and or meme, silly as it seem, they even made a character of it such, which is ridiculous while the people on the social platform see it as funny to tag it, to screenshot it and to merge it with other images as a joke, when in reality, it is very very grim and serious.

The obvious truth is that child abuse will not halt and or cease one's pursuits of joining a religion or if said person is a convert to the religion of their choice. In regards to Jehovah's Witnesses, child abuse will not stop someone from joining the faith, no matter how hard you express something these people already know in regards to child abuse and religion - so it is not a good idea to condemn the group as a whole for the actions of a few bad persons, for all we know, we do not even know how the church leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses react to such problems, how they feel and so forth, but someone on the internet can easily take the words of others and being one-sided in this whole situation and attack the leaders head on who have nearly 8.3 million JW Christians with them, as the Muslims put it, the JW Tribe.

For if we are to condemn a whole group, then we must also condemn hospitals, educational institutions, the police force and several others for if we are to do the same for a religious group(s), we should do the same for such places too, even going as far to condemn either friends or family members who took part in child abuse. For in the past (present also), police officers have been subjected to child abuse and assault, some take it further by using their position to abuse their victims, either one or multiple victims, the destroying of child pornography images and videos in an botched attempt to destroy evidence, despite the ruins of said material being found via investigation. Despite the actions of such people who are sworn and by law to serve and protect, some of them abuse their power, be race, the sex of the person they target, class and age, and some victims are either children and or teenagers who are not even old enough to know what a Bank Levy, in some cases, some being involved with child and sex prostitution rings, for a change of a few dollars prevents such things to be kept in the dark by the wicked people who themselves partake in such things. In the end, we do not condemn the police force or the leaders of a department, unless they too are involved, hence why we still have the police around and to this day there is always the good cop and the bad cop,for the bad ones tend to get away while others get the book thrown at them, the good cop will continue to do good in the eyes of his/her department, his community and his/her family and friends. The police force and the military are no different from each other in terms of doing good for the community and family, but just like the police, even the military has a few bad eggs, like with recent news about the US military and their Afghan allies.

Many Hospitals around the world do not even follow guidelines for child abuse patients, and some are involved in the crime and or just pure neglect. Some doctors and nurses who have access to children and or teenagers tend to be the abusers to their victims also, regardless of this, it doesn't stop the outsiders from going to said Hospital, for the Hospital is a place to get checked out and or treated, the same can be said of a small doctor's/nurse's office, for if anyone in that area is an abuser, they will be dealt with in time, and replaced with someone of the same title and position who has a clean record and no mental issues, and life goes on as it should and such places are still areas of which strangers both young and old dwell in.

Same thing goes for other things, social media and online video games (possibly the subtly in these things tend to be very dangerous) to where abusers also use and prey on young victims, especially on popular games the kids play nowadays Minecraft, Call of Duty, etc (apparently old fashion Mario and Donkey Kong is too retro for today's tech kids) for predators will pose as a "friend" in the game to lure their victims, despite such cases already, especially the recent Minecraft one that had a happy ending to it for the child and her family (

    Hello guest!
), the games were not commended, but the parent's as do others also, are told to better supervise and educate children of online games, as well as social media, for back then to now, social media was literally haven for abusers - some also who bribe children to do things, at times offering real money just so they can blackmail the victim and record or take images of them, a situation similar to a friend of mine who passed away via suicide due to exposure and blackmail, for I have mentioned this before here.

Educational Institutions is tricky, for in normal schools, most of the abusers tend to be female instead of male, and tend to get away with what they have done by prostituting themselves to an adolescent, other times, the female abuser will get a less sentence compared to their male counterparts (In the US, the culprits are mostly Caucasian - statewide). In addition to that, no one bats an eye because of how the teacher physical looks, for how it seems in the eyes of the law who investigate such in the educational institutions, the more pretty she looks, the less of a sentence. But like the others, you cannot condemn a school or the one who runs the school who at least make an attempt to deal with the situation, at times, the head of the school or the board are not always involved and if they are, they just simply say the teacher no longer works here - the same can be said of teacher abusers to students in Universities and Colleges, and I can tell you, there is a good side and a really, really dark side to Universities and Colleges, very explicit.

But yes, no one is going to condemn a religion for child abuse, if anything it is merely by choice should one does such or if it is the actual family of the victim or the victim themselves, it won't stop someone from joining said religion, faith and or church congregation, especially those who are or has Evangelicals/Missionaries and try to do what is right in terms of bible scripture. For if we are to condemn a faith, we are to condemn nearly everything else that is involved with government, this includes the American Dollar for some of the money is used in the Deep State in regards of child abuse, despite it being a necessity.

In my case, I am a Unitarian, similar to that of Jehovah's Witnesses, but even us Unitarians have several denominations, and when one of them do something, people will not just bash on us for it, they bash on the Christian faith itself, for child abuse is also an issue with us, but it does not stop me from following the faith, nor does become the very thing that keeps me away from bible reading and study. This goes for the church leaders of the Unitarian denominations, for even they differ, but the effect of child abuse has proven to be a problem with them, as do other religions.

Other cases, some people become sex offenders for being wrongly accused and or lied to, Zach Anderson being a prime and recent example of such - for he was not a pedophile, but the girl who got him into deep trouble was the root of him becoming a sex offender, avoiding 25 years. His life was obviously ruined,and to this day some side with him while other attack him or accuse him of being a pedophile.

As for the Jehovah's Witnesses and their leaders, just like everyone else, child abuse is an issue that is not easy to contain, for since anyone can be a member of their faith, anyone can come and have access to children and but out of the bunch you may have that one guy or girl who has a ill desire of children, and in order to get the trust of others and the kids, they will either work hard to just get a position of authority and use said authority to lure children in, as such is the case with anything pertaining to child abuse - for the bad people can and will infiltrate any religion of their choice just to cause a scene and or take action. And just like everyone else, they will do what they can to minimize the situation, in some cases, internal investigation or the like without breaking religious law, and should they find anything, they will advise the victim and or the victim's parents of the problem if the victim has not spoken up to their parents yet. Since it was said before, the JW elders will advise them to seek out authorities and should authorities ask for the help of the one who did the internal investigation should such an event is raised.

You may not be a Jehovah's Witnesses anymore, but what you can do to help them is to educate them on how to identify child abuse, so should an abuser attempt to join them in that church, they will be ready and not be caught off guard, for training on signs of abuse is a thing that people tend to do for sometime now, for educating such persons helps at least one child, which is something you can do like many others, but if you are to do it, be on the same level as the person you are speaking to, as well as being mild with them, and if you have a chance and close with a child or two, you can teach them if someone is bothering them, before any action is taken, the child, who has been educated on what child abuse is, will react - which is the same thing about an adult teaching a child about strangers, you can teach them about child abuse also, as with other things, so they can be aware and alert, for the children I speak to in my family and my friend's family this subject was raised and with what they know, they taught other children also, some who are of a different faith and nationality than them also. Regarding their faith, work with what they believe and what laws and rules from scripture they go by if you have to, for anyone who is bible strict, you have to work with them on their level.

Now, your other biggest problem is dealing with the situation of child grooming, child brides, child and or young adolescent forced to marry the very man that raped them, for such things do exist in America due to law, Florida being one of many of the states, while outside the US, such things is all over like wildfire in a forest, human sex trafficking, as well as child to child abuse and a field of other things in terms of abuse. For this world is full of sin and sinners, and should you choose to condemn everything or anyone because of child abuse, you may as well build a cabin house in the woods far far away from civilization, but the reality is, we all have to see this world for what it really is, imperfection and the sins of man, for even a good man can sin and commit child abuse, and their actions will effect those around them and the community. As for pedophiles what they to are danger to themselves, but at the same time, you have to realize that these people are sick in the head too, pedophilia is said to have an unknown origin, but tends to affect such person at birth as some say, and for them, it is as if they are born with a demon, one that cannot be expelled easily and should they go unchecked, they will enact what they see fit in targeting young children, be it teens or even young toddlers, other cases pedophilia of an older child can manifest and they will end up taking action on someone smaller and obviously not stronger than them.

For wherever there is children or a child, expect that there is or will be a predator near by, could be a churchgoer, a neighbor, a teacher, a gym coach, that guy at the store who is close with your family, or the obviously disturbed man in the car who is going around the neighborhood seeking to kidnap someone, and in most cases, it is most likely the relative, specifically the Father of the household who is the abuser, rarely it is the mother, but some situations this is the case. As for those outside of what is going on, also expect that they can or cannot help, as I said before, such persons tend not to get involved, especially if it can get them subjected to, injured, and or killed (or become the killer if involved) if it comes to that (

    Hello guest!
), regardless of their faith and or position, for at times they will simply give advise and or inform you to seek someone who is of better help. I say this because I was a kid myself, all of us were, and as an adult now, I take the word of a child for inner my circle of family and friends, the word of a child is key to truth - especially if the child is raised right and puts a great deal of trust in you. Educate the child or children on this matter, and if you have to, educate the parent of the child or relative, or someone close to them if you manage to jump on that subject in a conversation in an attempt to teach said person about child abuse, the signs of an abuser and or victim, etc.

Child abuse can only be prevented in some cases, if after, things can be done to help the victim(s), we cannot fight or stop such a thing, for if we are to think of such, we have to question ourselves if that is even possible for we cannot stop war, famine or racism, sickness, etc and we cannot stop child abuse - a reality we have to accept and be aware of in a world full of wickedness. All we can do is offer help and do the best way we can, some better than others, some will do the best that they can in regard to the problem, but in an imperfect and immoral world that thinks pedophilia is okay when the reality is it is a sickness that plagues the abusers at birth, it is very difficult and to some pose not just a threat, but a daunting challenge to deal with. You'd be surprise that not only the victims are helped, but the abusers affected by the ill desire brought upon them due to pedophilia are also fighting their demons, and there are people who have to deal with keeping such persons in check to prevent such ill desire to overtake them which will soon beget action that can land them in a world of hurt and trouble, and in some cases, exile, as for some victims, they tend to even go out of their way to forgive their abusers, which is rare in some occasions.

That being said, all of us have to be aware and vigilant, should we have to, better to educate people about such a matter and accept the fact that child abuse is a thing that has been around for ages and will not go away until God gives the okay for his Son to return to earth prior to end time tribulations, only then we will know that the days of the wicked are numbered, and the battle against child abuse that is an unwanted plague of mankind will most definitely be dealt with, only then we can breathe easy when that day comes when such things will be a thing of the pastas with other troubles and anxieties we have today.

Share this post


Link to post

 

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is amazing! I can’t sneak anything past you. You have hit the nail on the head! I am writing a book because I want to be

F. A. M. O. U. S ! ! !

@JW Insider,!!! Run to the art room and fetch me a picture of a brother with puffed out chest thumbing to to the yacht and mansion behind him and the piles of MONEY (but no bikini-clad woman, for this IS a brother and we ARE talking a family publication.

I want that brother to be   ME!!! 

Swimming Pools!

Movie stars!

Sheesh. I’m writing a book for the same reason anyone writes a book – because I have a story to tell. Have you ever been to a library? There are a lot of them in there. I want to put one there as well.

This is true with anyone! What is wrong with you? 

There has never been any question from the ARC or anyone else that they were getting the right numbers. The only reason they have any numbers at all is because Jehovah’s Witnesses track wrongdoing so as to punish it and warn others as necessary. No other faith even attempts to ensure that members should apply what they learn!! No one else goes there.

Jehovah’s Witnesses worship the Governing Body in the same sense that passengers on a plane worship the pilot when they refrain from kicking in the cockpit door to and grabbing the controls. This is not hard to understand to anyone who has not mentally made himself a ten-year-old!!

It is like when the reporters ask Tillerson "Did you call the President a moron??!!!" and he says "I'm not going to dignify that question with an answer" because he knows that if he says no, they will keep pressing him until he says yes, and if he says yes, they will run off with what they think is the story of the century!!!  even though people routinely call each other morons - whether seriously or in jest, and it means nothing!!

"Worship the Governing Body" my foot!! I mean, there is only so much you can do with a person determined to be stupid!!

It gets worse.

Punishment is fine – for child rapists no punishment is too great, but prevention is obviously the higher priority. It looks like every tenth person on the planet is a pedophile, so punishment, even when you do it right, only goes so far in solving the problem. And Jehovah's Witnessed DO punish. Quite severely when called for. But their way doesn't dovetail with the world's preferred way and THAT is what is being resolved. It is also the ONLY CONCERN John has!

I am so done with this fellow! He does not care about prevention – he has made the point over and over again. He only cares about shaming people and revenge! (on Witnesses) He wants to punish it after it happens but does not seem to care about if it happens in the first place!!!

He wants revenge! He wants to shame people! He could care less about stopping child sexual abuse!! That's not his thing.

Enough!

I am willing to disobey counsel in certain instances and engage with those who have fallen under the spell of single-issue fanatics, even if some of them also embrace apostacy.

But there is no way I am going to engage with one who would encourage pedophiles!!! He sees how it is being stopped to a ten-fold degree and it doesn't interest him at all!!!

 

The sad reality is that some may or may not accept is child abuse and the sickness that is pedophilia is far to great to be contained 100%. Some instances of preventing it or dealing with its aftermath, but it cannot be stopped. In regards to JWs and other faiths, even the so called mainstreamers who I disagree with, all are subjected to child abuse for it has infiltrated everything, even government. There is some stuff that the mainstream news and media isn't telling the people nor made public for such stories of child abuse deem far too brutal and explicit to some, perhaps far more unhinged compared to what is going on in religious, for it has a lot to do with the high and mighty people who partake in such things, the abusers.

That being said, it is unwise for some to condemn a group for child abuse, when it is all over. I say this because our schools, our police, our military, our churches, our institutions, our businesses, etc are subjected to child abuse, even our money that has gone to and out of the hands of wicked persons, as well as those committed to spreading child abuse.

But sadly, the whole child abuse thing has made a lot of people sad and angry so reactions and bursting how such vented emotions will eventually goes people to target persons and or groups due to child abuse.

Very soon stuff like this will end though and we will need not worry about child abuse. But as of right now, the problem is the spreading of child abuse and those who are accepting of it, while on the other side of the spectrum, people are trying whatever they can to minimize and or fight against child abuse the best way they can.

 

Elsewhere, the only literal fight (at times there has been fist fighting by some) some people are making a decision on in regards to child abuse is doing what they can to fight against people who accept pedophilia as if it is a good thing, people like in this image here, who pose a real threat and being the very persons who influence mentally ill pedophiles to seek out young people as if it is a good thing, there is a good reason as to why the bible says to not be part of the world:

311017sign.jpg

 

As well as fighting against child grooming and marriage, something of which a majority of this world accepts, when in reality stuff like this is very wrong: 

    Hello guest!

But as someone once said, there are better ways to fight and or combat issues like child abuse, condemning a person or group or disrupting, attacking them is not the best way to go, for it causes the person or group to be targets while the real culprits are at work, infiltrating others and committing their vile crimes - but it seems not everything is outside of the box or thinking critically on this child abuse matter and will just go witch hunting instead.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

you've come back to this stupid stupid idea that JW Org is ok because it does not have AS MUCH Child Abuse as other organizations

Now you've got it!  It's doing better than anyone else.  How can that be spun as a bad thing?

The facts are very simple. It was not the ARC's mission, but evidence was uncovered to show JW's cut child abuse by 90% overr the general population.

@JOHN BUTLER does not care about this! He insists that attention be drawn elsewhere.

How can be not be a friend of child sexual abuse?  (Granted that he has suffered it, and of course that calls for empathy. But it doesn't necessitate trashing common sense and it doesn't justify 'slash and burn' toward the people with the best record)

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

There is some stuff that the mainstream news and media isn't telling the people nor made public for such stories of child abuse deem far too brutal and explicit to some, perhaps far more unhinged compared to what is going on in religious

The authorities who must view child porn in the course of doing their jobs liken it to Medusa: "One look and you turn to stone"

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Witness said:

Watchtower’s Greek Interlinear uses “upon”:

Rev 5:10  - 

    Hello guest!

RNWT – “and you made them to be a kingdom

    Hello guest!
 and priests to our God,
    Hello guest!
 and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

There is quite a bit of difference.  Makes you wonder why they changed it in their Bible.  At least it should make you question their intentions.  The GB have themselves in mind; the higher they believe they can ascend, the bolder they become in falsehoods.  

There is no difference nor is it their intention, for anyone who understands and respect Koine Greek and the manuscripts, they can see this with their very eyes. For the translation of this verse in regards to their interlinear has not broken any rules whatsoever. For you to consider that an error is quite laughable when one can review what is true online and with the facts placed before them, they will see that the interlinear made by the WT was not in error - which I have said and proven to you before.

I said this to you before, and I will say it again, learn your Greek.-_- There is no issue with "upon" for that very word is within the Strong's itself and no Strong's that differ from it, especially its use in said verse - in addition to various translations who uses that Greek word and use a word that derives from that Greek Strong's and that it alone. For it isn't the Watchtower's doing, it is the TR's itself of which said translations from the manuscripts derive from. The fact I have stated this to you before and you ignoring that pretty much proves you ignore the very manuscripts of which the bible originates from. I will re-post that link to my response to one of your interlinear comments, which I have already proven by my information to be fact, correct and true in terms of the sources used to translate such verses to the bible itself:

 

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

Revelations 5:10

Quote

 

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsaV hmas tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV kai basileusomen epi thV ghV

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsaV hmas tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV kai basileusomen epi thV ghV

Byzantine Majority
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Alexandrian
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileian kai iereiV kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Hort and Westcott
kai epoihsaV autouV tw qew hmwn basileian kai iereiV kai basileuousin epi thV ghV

Latin Vulgate
5:10 et fecisti eos Deo nostro regnum et sacerdotes et regnabunt super terram

American Standard Version
5:10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

Bible in Basic English
5:10 And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are ruling on the earth.

Darby's English Translation
5:10 and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

Douay Rheims
5:10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

Noah Webster Bible
5:10 And hast made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Weymouth New Testament
5:10 And hast formed them into a Kingdom to be priests to our God, And they reign over the earth.'

World English Bible
5:10 And made them kings and priests to our God, And they reign on earth.'

Young's Literal Translation
5:10 and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'

 

 

Now as for the WT interlinear:

Quote

    Hello guest!
 ???and ????????you made??????them??to the???God????of us?????????kingdom???and??????,priests,???and????????????they are reigning???upon???the???.

 

Look at also: 

    Hello guest!

??? (epi)Greek Strong's  #1909

A. upon, on, at, by, before

B. of position, on, at, by, over, against

C. to, over, on, at, across, against

??? epí, ep-ee'; a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:—about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, × have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with.

 

I won't bother with root words this time because you seem to be ignoring pure facts regarding the very manuscripts that a majority of translators and copyist translates such to a readable verses/sentence, no one else expect the KJV translators have alter words that have Strong's in them, again, Textual Criticism.

Once again, I'm willing to even go as far as to find twice as many translations who respects the manuscripts and the Greek language. The silliness with some needs to stop. When you respect God's word, you also have to respect the very thing the bible comes from and or the very thing that is the reason as to why the bible exist today.

 

An error would be using a word that has no place in the verse to being with, an example if 1 Timothy 3:16 whereas few translations added God instead of HE, to make it seem that the Son was the Father, throwing people in to falsehood entirely and the only known bible to do this falsehood is the KJV/NKJV. Textual Criticism allows one to see this error and compare it to other translations who are in the right for that same verse the King James has altered.

I say this always, but it would seem you are not careful at all. But it seems to you if that interlinear was wrong, the very Strong and sources itself are wrong also, therefore, making all bible translation and the Septuagint itself, in error.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

For you to consider that an error is quite laughable when one can review what is true online and with the facts placed before them, they will see that the interlinear made by the WT was not in error - which I have said and proven to you before.

I DID NOT CALL IT AN ERROR.

For an intelligent man, you are quite naïve of Wt.’s deceptive tricks.  What was my comment about?  What was I explaining? 

I will leave it at that. 

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Witness said:

I DID NOT CALL IT AN ERROR.

For an intelligent man, you are quite naïve of Wt.’s deceptive tricks.  What was my comment about?  What was I explaining? 

I will leave it at that. 

Never said you said such a word, I merely said you "for you consider that an error" I said this because what you posted here reflects what you have posted in the very thread I linked, for previously you stated that the WT has been deleting words when the reality is no rule was violated nor was any Strong's changed and or removed at all, but perhaps using "false" or the word "wrong" would have been a better choice - but the response would have been the same regardless, as with anyone who has made or lean on what they deem as  errors, falsehood, lies, wrongdoing, etc in terms of the manuscripts used and or denial of the Septuagint or any modern critical editions of the Septuagint, a response from people who knows such information will follow suit.

It is you who are naive for I have already stated similar information before, yet you continue to speak as such of a 1900s interlinear that sheds no violation in the realm of textual Criticism, let alone Biblical Hermeneutics, for most Interlinear bibles follow the same rules and rarely do they suffer from any violation unlike its counterparts of several Textus Receptus' that differ from Stephen's. An intelligent man would know the difference and realize what an Interlinear originated from, a blind man will continue to chuck stones at something he considers false.

The Bengel's rule; Lectio difficilior potior (Latin for "the more difficult reading is the stronger") for it is the main principle and rule of critical text also known as Textual Criticism, in this case, the Canons of textual criticism in regards to majority of interlinear translations. There is no deception, if you want deception, I can show you right up from from the Hebrew Old Testament to the Greek New Testament of something "added" and or "deleted" and or not matching any of the Strong's at all, for I have already given an example, 1 Timothy 3:16, perhaps several, 1 John 5:7, Acts 8:37, the list goes on for anything not using the oldest and most reliable source when it comes to scripture or those who tend to be leaning towards the Comma Johanneum.

As for the Interlinear Bible produced by the Watchtower, there is no deception, no matter the disdain you have for them which is evident, for it is very simple -  that bible used a variation of two manuscripts: Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, one can speculate that the 1550 (Stephen) was also used as well, but it is uncertain for most Interlinear translations done by the Bengel's rule tend to be similar to each other, an example would be the Novum Testamentum Graece, but the difference is this one tends to rely a bit more on another manuscript known as the Alexandrian text-type (Neutral or Egyptian).

Next time you speak of anything Interlinear, Watchtower's version or whatever Interlinear you want to bring up, know especially what manuscripts it is using before you say what you say in your comment here and on your other post, this way you better understand not just scripture, but also of what is the very things that allows you to even have a bible today - be it in your very hands, or a quick search and a click of a button.

That being said, no one can really claim deception of an interlinear expect some of the several TR's available and which translations use them.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The authorities who must view child porn in the course of doing their jobs liken it to Medusa: "One look and you turn to stone"

Unfortunately, it tends to get worse for them sometimes, as well as overwhelming. But as one will say, a job's a job no matter how good or bad it gets.

But the problem though is society today accepts and encourages such misconduct, which will influence those with such problems to target children even more. As we speak, there are those against such things who are now claiming and or pointing the finger at people of faith/denominations Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

That being said, the fight against child abuse and pedophilia only gets far more difficult as the days go by and now we have things like this: 

    Hello guest!

Mind you, just like the Asia and European countries, it is widespread in the US also, perhaps far more greater than how it was around the last couple of years.

The only possible way to prevent such things the best way we can is to educate people, be it verbally or by articles, reading, radio, etc regardless of who they are, this is what people do not understand and when it happens to them or their child then things will end up going on a crazy and bumpy road. For if we can teach a child and a parent about stranger danger, about drugs, about sex, about alcohol, internet, bully prevention, growing up, etc.we can do the same with the likes of child abuse, as well as give warning of pedophilia, so people can see the signs - for this is, for some, better ways, and the common rule should a child be abused, they can tell an adult, if one adult is able to help or not, they can speak to another adult, be it a teacher or a police officer, even should said adult direct you to such persons, which people seem to forget they have a voice to speak on the behalf of the victim, especially parents, a friend and or relative.

For any man or woman who condemns isn't doing much to help the problem, for such persons can do what they can to help anyone by providing such information and teaching on the subject.

But sadly, I said it before, people prefer the witch hunt and targeting others when there are better ways of handling things. Witch hunts and targeting people will not help any child or at least prevent something from happening to at least one child, but it is what it is today in the US.

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

WOW!    It's amazing what some people get out of an obvious shaggy dog story !

I felt sorry for a man who had no shoes ...

... until I met a man with no sense of humor, and who misunderstood EVERYTHING!

 

Some people tend to not have a sense of humor when they are running through emotions and or serious, other times, they do not get the joke until later on. To some who are troubled, they rather have a good laugh than another tough and or hard day.

Share this post


Link to post

It's snowing here in deepest Devon England. All of God's creation as far as the eye can see, is covered in white. There is peace on the land, probably because no one can travel far, but it's tranquil. Therefore i will sit here and pray to God, rather than spend time replying to comments on here. We all have our own opinion and it seems none of us will be swayed, so no point discussing it further. 

Have a good day whoever you are, where ever you are. Have piece of mind, be kind to others and show love to those who will receive it. 

Oh for judgement day, that God's will will be done, here on Earth as in Heaven. 

 

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley What is yout ideas on Romans 13, v1 through 7

 

Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.  Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.  For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it;  for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad. There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose.  Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax;  to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor.

Now surely this is talking about Earthly Governments, courts and all, and being in subjection to them, and being obedient to them when it is not disobeying God. 

Also, Matthew 5 v 41. 'and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles.'

Put simply, Jesus was telling his listeners that if an authority compelled them into some kind of legitimate service, they should perform it willingly and without resentment. They were thus to pay “Caesar’s things to Caesar” but not overlook the obligation to pay “God’s things to God.”—

    Hello guest!
. 
    Hello guest!

So now, I think the Governing Body should obey the law of the land, governments, court orders, and all, as long as it does not go against God's will.

And I think you will find i have backed that up with scriptures from your own Bible. N W T of the H S.

You may say that human governments and courts do a bad job, but then it's not for you or I to judge them, as it seems they stand in place because God Himself wants them there at  this time. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

@JOHN BUTLER     What are your thoughts on Luke 2:41-50?

Now his parents were accustomed to go from year to year to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.

    Hello guest!
 42  And when he was 12 years old, they went up according to the custom of the festival.
    Hello guest!
 43  When the days of the festival were over and they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, and his parents did not notice it. 44  Assuming that he was in the group traveling together, they went a day’s journey and then began to search for him among the relatives and acquaintances.45  But not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem and made a diligent search for him. 46  Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and asking them questions.47  But all those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers.
    Hello guest!
 48  Now when his parents saw him, they were astounded, and his mother said to him: “Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I have been frantically looking for you.” 49  But he said to them: “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?”
    Hello guest!
 50  However, they did not understand what he was saying to them.

I think you will find that all verses are from the NWT.

Share this post


Link to post

@JOHN BUTLER, where you are going has been gone many times before on this forum. I have taken part in it there. Look it up.

I don't want to do old forever. Your question has been addressed many times over. And you and your new chums simply ignore the answer and ask your question again.

I just brought up something new. Why do you not address it?  But if you do not want to, take note of the only other NEW thought here, and becasue it is new it bears repeating. 

If you work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population, how are you not acting as a friend of child abuse?

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If you work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population, how are you not acting as a friend of child abuse?

The organization is not the Temple of God.  The anointed priesthood is  - you know, those who have no voice?  They are the Temple of God.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22

I hope you can see that comparing the organization to the early temple by using Luke 2:41-50, just doesn't work.  Besides, child abuse has been reported to have occurred in kingdom halls.  

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley So you didn't want to answer my question ? 

What is the question exactly?

Also regarding following the laws of the land, Christians will obey laws, pay taxes, give back things to Caesar as Jesus said, etc, however, they will and always will be ready to not let the laws of the land conflict with either Scripture and or belief, and most importantly, God the Father of whom they pay total servitude and religious worship to, even if in some cases it, a great deal of resistance against various laws that will hinder anything biblical and or service to God, it will not go unchecked by those who follow the bible.

Paul wrote something of the like in the Romans epistles during the reign of the ruthless emperor, Nero, of whom Paul had to appeal to for he was wrongly accused and imprisoned (Acts 25:11) and was kept under guard prior to his case (Acts 28:30), and information from Peter also (and a bit of the Tanakh/OT) - for no Christian would want to be put in a position that his or her service of religious worship to the one True God as well listening to  His Spoken Word, would be at risk regarding said laws of the land, there's a phrase for it but I went blank on it, but a Christian would not allow laws to stop them having what they put first in their lives, which is God and his Kingdom that is to come.

The Law above laws is of God's and only his, should anyone attempt to stop it, there will be those who will resist,for we have examples in the scriptures of such.

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley Well I think I proved the point and I'm happy with that. New subject, when you cannot or will not answer the old one, I don't think so... 

And, I don't "work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population,". I'm just not impressed by numbers. And how can you compare an Org that is supposed to be completely clean to a world that deliberately is not wanting to be clean. 

I do have a great deal of feeling and empathy with the past victims and I'm also very interested in trying to prevent more child abuse within the Org. Hence my suggestion that the Governing Body be completely removed / disfellowshipped, and the Org be sorted out properly. But my reliance for that is not on man, it is on God... It seems true that God will sort out those He wants to use. The Apostle Paul being a great example.

So time will tell, and I will wait and see the result..........   8 men that put themselves in the place of God will not remain there I'm sure. And all those that serve the 8 men may find it deeply shocking when their 'boat' is rocked very hard, but the Org will survive.  

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley So you didn't want to answer my question ? 

Yes, you know, I do.

It has been answered many times before and the answer is simply ignored, because the answer requires some thought to process and single-issue people have usually lost that ability. They have laid hold of a "gotcha" question and when they die, it is in their wills form it to be inscribed on their gravemarkers.

However, let us answer the question from a fresh angle.

There is a reason that Jehovah's Witnesses took some 50 cases to the U.S. Supreme Court, won most of them, and are universally given credit for thereby defining human rights for everybody. It is because they did not say to all the lower courts, judges, and lawyers: "Yes, boss...whatever you say." They sensed a deep injustice, refused to go along with it, dragged it into the Supreme Court, where higher and smarter and more impartial judges agreed with them.

I did not participate overmuch in discussion of legal tactics because should I be hauled into the courts someday for something or other, I plan to hire an attorney. The reason I plan to hire an attorney is because I know the law is absurdly complex and I do not trust the impartiality of my prosecutor and not necessarily even the judge. If I was arguing my case before the 600 law system of ancient Israel, I would not hire an attorney. But if I am arguing my case before the 2,000,000 law system of today, I will.

Therefore the proper response to criticism of this or that legal tactic of Witness attorneys is to blow it off the indulgence of hot air windbags. I will accept their criticisms when I know that they are capable enough in the law to represent themselves in court, and plan to do just that, rather than hire an attorney. Otherwise, I figure they are just whiners, largely uninformed, trying to push a favored point of view.

John would sigh and swoon over the blessings and final truth-finding abiltiy of the human justice system. Is he for real? Especially in view of the Salon report which shows the human justice system routinely screws up on this favorite (and only) cause of his.

    Hello guest!

Is anyone other than John so naive as to think that there is nothing but joy to be found in the endless stream of lawyers being cranked out of law school who will go on to sue the pants off of everyone and commandeer one third (at least) of the proceeds? What do they do with it? Does anyone think that when the Boy Scouts were sued in Portland around 2010 for child sex abuse and the resulting verdict was said to be the largest ever awarded to a single victim, the legal team pumps the proceeds, after expenses, into anti-child abuse causes - maybe even into the Boy Scouts themselves with the stipulation it be used just for that purpose? The head lawyer said something to the effect of 'the Boy Scouts have undertaken a noble task in working with children and it is his sincere hope that the award will impress upon them the need to do it better.' Does anyone think that he is not lying through his teeth? Has nobody ever read a John Grisholm novel?

In my area there are non-stop ads from a team of attorneys featuring people who look like glamorous movie stars that have never seen a day's suffering in their lives. 'So and so' got me 3 million dollars, 12 times what the insurance company offered!' they say. One person said 35 times . I looked into the case. The defendent's attorney had actually dragged his feet and opposed this process. He introduced some legal "trick." I was outraged!!!  The lying sonuva you-know-what! When I heard the 35 times verdict, I rejoiced that justice had been served!!!

Then I opened my adjusted premium bill.

No. It is as Forest Gump said or would have said had he thought of it: "Lawyers is as lawyers does." I don't weigh in on their tactics. I realize they are operating in a fantastically complex and lucrative area mostly of their own making, and often made for just that reason.

Since child sexual abuse is endemic human society and everyone is suing everyone else in an effort to stop it, eventually millions of dollars will transfer in all directions and everything will be as it was in the first place - and child sexual abuse will still be endemic - with the exception of the lawyers who will have scored a significant financial windfall.

As I said on the other thread, there may be other hearings like those of the ARC and my instinct is to say BRING THEM ON! Let each one firmly establish what the Australian one did - that Jehovah's Witnesses have a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times more successful than the non-Witness world and that therefore only a friend of child abuse would oppose them.

If need be, let the world divide into two camps: those who are outraged because for a given school shooting, the outcome was not "handled properly" - the grief counselors did not say the right things, - and those who would recognize the value of a school that takes actions so that shootings do not happen in the first place, and therefore almost never has to call up the grief counselors. Sometimes you almost think the first camp is driven by the grief counselors themselves who want to stay employed. - after all, their college grief counselor training put them tens of thousands of dollars into debt.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley I find it so so funny how you keep referencing worldly events or worldly things when the JW Org is supposed to be NO PART OF THIS WORLD..

If you feel the God is with the Org then why would you worry about the inadequacy of the legal system. Surely God will have the outcome He wants ? Or do you not have that faith ? 

Please tell me if you believe this is true or not. (Remember i have stated on my own FB page that i honestly don't know the truth about anything anymore). I have read that the Governing Body formed two separate legal departments, one in the JW Org (as i call it) and one in the Watchtower Soc. The purpose for this was to slow down court cases. If a court demanded documents from one of them, such as JW Org, then the legal dept of JW Org would send a letter to the W/T Soc, asking them for said documents. W/T Soc would write back to JW Org saying basically  'you can't have the documents'. Then this would carry on back and forth, the purpose being to slow down court proceeding against the JW Org, and hopefully get victims to give up their case... Now if the GB have complete control over both JW Org and W/T Soc, then surely they could just give the instructions to whomever to hand over the documents. Job done.  The supposed letters between the JW Org and W/T Soc were put up online, but of course they could be fake.  I'm keeping an open mind on it.

One other thing i want to look into is that the GB at one time changed their idea of what the Romans 13 scripture meant. Instead of it meaning subjection to the worldly governments / courts etc, i think they said it meant subjection to the GB themselves. Now if that was in 1997 it would prove very interesting, as it seems it was in 1997 that they were getting concerned about the amount of Child Abuse within the Org.  

However, you come back to the same old rubbish. And as I've said, the Nation of Israel might not have offered up as many of it's children into the fire as the other nations did. but in God's eyes what the nation of Israel did was far worse. 

Try just for once to see the Child Abuse within JW Org, from God's viewpoint. God would not be so interested in the child abuse in the world as He is in the Child Abuse within the JW Org, if indeed it is His chosen Org. God would want His chosen people to be clean and to serve Him properly. God does not demand that of the rest of the world. I'm sure you would see the difference if you would want to. 

However it seems you only want to think from a human standpoint and to impress humans with figures or percentages. And it seems you want to rely on your 8 men, your Governing Body, to do it all their way.

Whereas I'm relying on God to sort out an Organisation that will serve Him properly before Armageddon comes. Whether that is JW Org or not i do not know. I honestly do not know. I care and i want to know, but I would dearly like God to make it known to me. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
38 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Remember i have stated on my own FB page that i honestly don't know the truth about anything anymore

For someone who honestly doesn't know anything, you certainly are sure that the answer to to DF the GB.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Try just for once to see the Child Abuse within JW Org, from God's viewpoint.

I don't have to. You have made it quite clear that you know what it is -  as though you had climbed up there in his throne with him - and I can just take your word for it.

On legal matters, you have my reply, and then you immediately carry on as though you had not read it, asking me for a tactical play by play - somehow assuming that I would know it.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

One other thing i want to look into is that the GB at one time changed their idea

They change their ideas all the time about many things and have never said otherwise. What do you think "tacking" is?

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley Well I think God made it clear how He dealt with the Nation of Israel when they turned their backs on Him. And i think God makes it clear through His word what he expects from His people. As for legal matters, I think the Romans scripture says it all. 

I'm basing all that I've said here on scripture, not on some other person's viewpoint. God has preserved His word for us to be guided by.

And yes the GB are constantly changing scripture meanings, to suit their own purpose it seems. If it was guided by God through Jesus Christ and the holy spirit, i would have thought the GB would have got it right first time. Why would God want to confuse His followers ?  And please don't say it is to test our faith, our faith gets enough tests without needing contradiction in scripture from the GB.

Remember i have stated on my own FB page that i honestly don't know the truth about anything anymore

For someone who honestly doesn't know anything, you certainly are sure that the answer to to DF the GB.

Once again a mis-quote. I didn't say that I 'honestly don't know anything', i said, 'I honestly don't know the truth about anything'.  There is a very big difference.

And as, In my opinion, the Governing Body are deliberately disobeying God, then yes, i do think they should be disfellowshipped. Many people have been disfellowshipped for much less. 

Share this post


Link to post
27 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Once again a mis-quote. I didn't say that I 'honestly don't know anything', i said, 'I honestly don't know the truth about anything'.  There is a very big difference.

 

Forgive me for this. Is wasn't a mis-quote on my part, but it was deliberate. It somehow struck me as more appropriate. If you hurl about the outlandish things you hurl, and show yourself impervious to any counter-argument, you must expect feedback like this.

You demand commentary from me but you show no sign of listening to it. So I must get to it when I get to it, and it will not always be specifically in answer to you. I already have addressed several aspects, both here and on the other thread.

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley @TrueTomHarley Quote 'If you hurl about the outlandish things you hurl...' Just because you disagree with my comments that does not make them 'outlandish'. It only means that you have a different opinion to me... What i do object to, is when you tell others what you consider my feelings and intentions are, but you try to make your opinions look like facts... 

And, i do not demand anything from you. I ask you genuine questions and you choose whether you answer them or not. 

It wasn't until today that i even knew there was another thread, as I would not have bothered with making one if I'd known. If i joined here through another thread then I'm sorry if my thread is very similar to the other one.... I would agree it gets boring and seems a bit pointless having multiple threads about the same subject.  As it is it's all getting tiresome and pointless. I've make my point and have listened to others, though you may say i haven't. And it is only time that will tell us the outcome. I would think that by the end of this year some new decisions would have been made within the JW Org regarding the 'rules' on dealing with Child Abuse. 

However, I've noticed that some people on one of the threads have said 'Bring it on' to the news about more investigations into Child Abuse within the JW Org. Perhaps those people should note that it was the JW Org themselves that objected to and tried to stop the investigations that have and are already taking place. And it was the JW Org or Governing Body in America that refused to hand over the documents to the Supreme court of California... So how can you have a proper enquiry / investigation when the information concerned is withheld ?  But full circle, back to the scripture in Romans about being obedient to the law of the land. 

And as @TrueTomHarley has said it's all been covered here really. It comes down to what you believe and who you want to serve. 

As for me I try to serve God through Jesus Christ, and i hope to find the true way of doing that as soon as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
36 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

the news about more investigations

If there are to be other ARC type hearings, when all is said and done it will boil down into two camps:

Those who are primarily concerned with punishing it after it has happened, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket.

And those who are primarily concerned that it does not happen in the first place, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket.

It will be: securning the barn door after the cows have fled, or impeding them from fleeing in the first place. Nobody is going to have a perfect record - not so long as we are talking humans,

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well I think God made it clear how He dealt with the Nation of Israel when they turned their backs on Him. And i think God makes it clear through His word what he expects from His people. As for legal matters, I think the Romans scripture says it all. 

But then you have Paul and Peter in regards to Civil Disobedience (evident in scripture) should the laws of the land conflict with scripture and or serving God, in this case, of what is written by both of these people. Christians are obligated to respect authorities of such people, as Romans says, but in regards to Civil Disobedience, that too is written by the bible writers for a reason. Last I have checked, rarely did anyone change or ignored Romans 13, if anything, Civil Disobedience is broken down into several categories without going around as to what Romans says and or what Paul and Peter says, and what was on full display in the Hebrew Old Testament and or any of God's law and word found in scripture.

What we all can agree on is that God is seeing all that is unfolding in the world, even among his people, however, he knows the hearts of people and knows that people will try to do what is necessary to deal with the problem, even if it is among His people who worship him, in addition, not only we are imperfect, but we have Free-Will, and this gift, to some is seen as both a blessing and a curse, for an individual can use said free will to do good or to do bad, this was the case in the Old Testament with what people were doing with younger ones and how God reacted, even using his people to deal with the situation at hand - it is no different today.

That being said, Tom is correct on percentages though, for people do care about the statistics, this is the only reason why child abuse safety and prevention website even post such things to begin with as well as the countries and the like affected in regards to percentage values, all having vital information for the reader to look into and research for themselves.

In the end, targeting a group will not reap any fruit because it will spawn comments, insult and reproach to God and contribute to the decline.

You also mentioned Facebook information, if you would provide I will look into it myself, as I do with a majority of denominations already.

So in short, Christians will obey authority and the laws, but should conflict rise, they will defend their faith in the best and worse situations for they will not change what is written for anyone, as God stated in Deuteronomy 4:2 and what Jesus stated in John 10:35 -  We must not add, change or remove from the word nor can we break or assume scripture can be broken (scripture cannot be broken), that being said, ARC has done a job well down on working with what rules and regulations the faith follows, even acknowledging of what these things are compared to others who make it into something that it is not, for we have to remember, of what is written and what is law in the bible, us as Christians must follow and adhere to.

 

Share this post


Link to post
39 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It will be: securning the barn door after the cows have fled, or impeding them from fleeing in the first place. Nobody is going to have a perfect record - not so long as we are talking humans,

Yeah, imperfect until the end times conclude and the Son makes his return. Child Abuse is a branch of other issues that cause anger and sadness, which is understandable by some, but people tend to take it a bit too far, but soon it will not be an issue.

Endurance is key, for maintaining salvation and faith may seem simple, but it is a really hard fight, Jude 3,  especially when the faults of others who do bad tends to be quite a problem.

A day will come when people will realize that fighting against something the wrong way, a cause, will reap a very negative effect. Something that is and will be evident and will affect every faith known to man in the US, including the JWs will the men in black starts closing churches, they have spoken about this before about closing any church they want back in the early 2000s.

 

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley @Space Merchant The ARC was only one country. In Canada the Superior Court of Quebec was looking to proceed with a class action lawsuit in September 2017. I don't have any update on that. In the Netherlands 'Reclaimed Voices' foundation has set up way for victims to contact them and it seems they have had 250 responcies... In the UK the Charity Commision has an ongoing investigation, which the JW Org tried to stop but did not succeed. The IICSA, it seems, will probably also do an investigation, although they seem to be very busy dealing with others at the moment.... Then we have the USA, but after the two (rather famous now) victims received big payouts I've no idea if the GB has to hand over the documents or not. What I'm saying here is, it's not all about the ARC.

I cannot understand the attitude of TTH, yes prevention is of course very important. But surely it would help in many ways to see how previous cases were handled. As I've experienced such things I know that the memories last a lifetime, so if it can be proved that the JW Org was negligent, then aren't victims due some sort of compensation ? And I'm not talking being paid millions to keep their mouth shut. 

Lessons could be learnt from past dealings to help stop future abuse. Rules could be changed within the Org to make it a safer place. 

SM, people may care about statistics, but I'm more concerned about what God cares about. I think you are coming at this from a different viewpoint. My thoughts are, if the JW org is really God's chosen organisation, then God wants it clean. God is not interested in a percentage, He wants clean. He wants, separate from the world, and a much much higher standard. So to compare to any other peoples is of no importance. It is only important to compare the JW Org to God's standards. How are the JW Org comparing to what God expects of them ? 

You said 'targeting a group will not reap any fruit because it will spawn comments, insult and reproach to God... ' You see how you are coming at it from a different angle ?  I'm not targeting a group. I'm interested in seeing, what is supposed to be God's chosen people, try harder to serve God properly and clean up their Organisation, and help their brothers and sisters.

  

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The ARC was only one country. In Canada the Superior Court of Quebec was looking to proceed with a class action lawsuit in September 2017. I don't have any update on that. In the Netherlands 'Reclaimed Voices' foundation has set up way for victims to contact them and it seems they have had 250 responcies... In the UK the Charity Commision has an ongoing investigation, which the JW Org tried to stop but did not succeed. The IICSA, it seems, will probably also do an investigation, although they seem to be very busy dealing with others at the moment.... Then we have the USA, but after the two (rather famous now) victims received big payouts I've no idea if the GB has to hand over the documents or not. What I'm saying here is, it's not all about the ARC.

Yes, for this is already known, but what I have mentioned other then ARC has to also be taken with high consideration also, for all children are at risk, not just child confined within a single group, and no one is immune to child abuse. Canada has a set of laws and regulations regarding Child Abuse within the very foundation of the Family Violence Laws, which derives from the Constitution Act, 1867, and to them, Child Abuse is considered as an epidemic, as some writers have stated and even within religion, the very place people assumes such does not happen, it is not safe there either at times should an abuser finds his or her way in said religion to reach children, or any institution that houses and or cares for children - all in all, child grooming and abuse can only be prevented by means of internal and outside investigation and the victim's family operation along with those who offered to help said victim.

As for the United Kingdom, Child Abuse runs rampant there also, especially from those who join any group of their choice to kidnap, rape and even kill children, just like one of the UK facilities that use to house children to where the abuse took place. The situation with the Charity Commission and JW charity only sparked investigation, which I believe went on for 2 and a half years, was due to claims and or allegations such as:

"The charity commission is investigating claims that Jehovah’s Witnesses abuse survivors were forced to face their attackers."

"The Charity Commission launched an inquiry into safeguarding at the religion’s main UK charity in May 2014 after receiving allegations that survivors of rape and sexual abuse, including people abused as children, were forced to face their attackers in “judicial committees”."

The JW church in question, as some of the articles have brought up was the one located in Manchester New Moston, the press release on the investigation can be found, but I will link an example of said press release info: 

    Hello guest!

That being said, the Charity Commission focus was the JW church and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Britain by a senior member.

The JWs have also acknowledged that they “abhor child abuse, and view it as a heinous crime and sin. The safety of our children is of the utmost importance.”

They added: “Whether the victim or parents decide to report the matter is not contingent on the number of witnesses to the offence or whether a confession has been made. Congregation elders do not shield abusers from the authorities or from the consequences of their actions.“

But yeah, I know how you feel about Child Abuse, just know that regardless of the person, there will be those who will do what is necessary to protect a child, and help a child should they become victim and do so to the best of their ability, but as we speak, there is and will be probe investigations on everyone, every faith to root out Child Abuse, it cannot be stopped entirely, but saving and or helping at least a child or two is progress, what will prove far difficult for UK is the Underground and more dark and far more violent forms of Child Abuse, which involves authorities and government, excluding religion, educational institutions, etc.

Oh and yes, I am familiar with Reclaimed Voices and admire their work, but more can be done for all children, which most child neglect and safety groups tend to ignore at times, for some it is understandable to avoid threats, injury and or death. Other then that, Netherlands is not really a fan of religion anyways.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I cannot understand the attitude of TTH, yes prevention is of course very important. But surely it would help in many ways to see how previous cases were handled. As I've experienced such things I know that the memories last a lifetime, so if it can be proved that the JW Org was negligent, then aren't victims due some sort of compensation ? And I'm not talking being paid millions to keep their mouth shut. 

Not all JW churches are the same, just like not every Mosque and or Cathedral is the same. In the end, it usually depends on the people of the church, the leaders of that specific church and how much of chemistry the church leaders and the people have with each other, I do not want to bring up the race card and culture card, but it seems this is the case with who is doing the abuse. But yes, usually depends though, for one church can show support to victims while others, not so much.

All in all, how things are handled, perhaps far better than how it was done in the past whereas we didn't have twice as many of support from people and a network to spread information faster and more fluently.

But in the end, educating someone and or a group is key to combating child abuse the best way possible.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Lessons could be learnt from past dealings to help stop future abuse. Rules could be changed within the Org to make it a safer place. 

True, but then you have religious laws. What can be done is working with what is already present if scripture prevents one from changing whatever rules they have. No one is going to break scripture sadly, so the best course of action, which was said time and time again by a lot of people, is work with what is already there and do something to make things better - the only issue is JWs will have to be educated and better clarify what some rules and scriptures they are under to those taking the lead of a church.

For if God said not to add, change or remove from his word and Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken you have to take that into consideration - for it is said anyone who holds the bible and what it says to a very high regard basically accepted a Nazareth Vow right then and there, and such can't really be broken by any man unless it comes to a conclusion - that is, when Jesus returns.

The goal would be is taking the rules itself and working with it to lessen child abuse situations as well as identifying abusers.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM, people may care about statistics, but I'm more concerned about what God cares about. I think you are coming at this from a different viewpoint. My thoughts are, if the JW org is really God's chosen organisation, then God wants it clean. God is not interested in a percentage, He wants clean. He wants, separate from the world, and a much much higher standard. So to compare to any other peoples is of no importance. It is only important to compare the JW Org to God's standards. How are the JW Org comparing to what God expects of them ? 

No, I do not have a different point of view, the people care for both, and it is evident through anything regarding Child Safety and Neglect Prevention by those who adhere to it and what is talked about to young ones in youth clubs that are affiliated with various networks that dealing with child abuse, in my case, as a religious person and a close friend to the community of mind, who has spoken to children who deal with different issues, as well as child abuse whereas the category is violence.

Yes, God wants his people to be clean for the one True God we worship, is clean, pure, and holy, Leviticus 11:44, 45. At the same time, he is aware of human imperfection from Adam and Eve's disobedience and onward, even among his own people, present day his people are still imperfect and it is not easy for them to be clean because converts and newcomers, some with ill intent cannot be detected so easily, but God already knows the intentions and the heart of said person, for the bible says so of God need not care about the individual, he cares for what he sees in the person's heart.

We know this because God is the one who granted us the gift of free will, the freedom and ability to make choice (Joshua 24:15), and he knows our hearts, regarding to what I had said previously, we see this example in the Old Testament, 1 Samuel 16:7 which reads:

But the Lord [YHWH] said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord [YHWH] sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord [YHWH] looks on the heart.” - ESV

That verse is easily connected and compared to 1 Kings 8:39, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Psalms 7:9, Proverbs 24:12, Jeremiah 17:10 and Acts 1:24.

The Jehovah's Witnesses and other organizations, including the non-religious ones are not clean, and it is impossible for any of them to be clean because of imperfections and abuse of free will by some, to which it ends up affecting others, however, it does not stop those who at least try to do something to minimize and prevent a situation from happening and or attempting to deal with the aftermath of whatever it is they are focused on and it is not an easy task for them, you, me or everyone here. Another issue is not trying to break scripture which is technically a Nazareth/Nazarite Vow (something that can't be broken if set in motion) based on Numbers 6:1–21 and several parts of the Old Testament into the Greek New Testament, for they, as others will not subject themselves to compared to the mainstream Christians who drop scripture and what is written in order to gain new converts.

Child Abuse in this case can only be minimized and or prevented by them, and they will their best to try and resolve it, like I said, at least saving a child or two from an abuser is a good thing, for the unfortunate sad reality is no matter where it takes place, you can't save all children, the very reason why Child Abuse is consider a global epidemic to begin with, in some cases, people tend to be subtle when trying to find evidence and or key information regarding child abuse because it can lead to many problems where someone's blood will literal be paid, and for pacifist, Christian ones, wouldn't want to go down the route.

No organization is clean, just so we are clear and the JWs, just like everyone else is subjected to the impurities that imperfect ones bring into the group.

What can be said however, they are somewhat inexperienced in dealing with abusers among them, but clearly not among the worse that are not really talked about in the media, nor talked about by any Child Abuse Prevention groups.

As with everyone else, it is just time and patience of improvement that is needed, as well as better training and educating church leaders on the issue. I said this before, education on the issue is key, if others can educate people about child abuse and working with them on their turf to try and increase prevention, you can do this too. I speak to children within my family and friends inner circle for a reason, as do those within the community of those who share the same belief, culture and or background as me, in addition, you have to take into account how such person(s) are, for people tend to help out without fully getting involved, something I have said time and time again, and this was heavily mention for decades by Child Abuse articles, information and PSAs.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You said 'targeting a group will not reap any fruit because it will spawn comments, insult and reproach to God... ' You see how you are coming at it from a different angle ?  I'm not targeting a group. I'm interested in seeing, what is supposed to be God's chosen people, try harder to serve God properly and clean up their Organisation, and help their brothers and sisters.

It is not a different angle, this is indeed 100% true, which should be evident to you and if need be I know a dozen of articles and news information, in addition to personal experience of mine and others. I have been around and know from experience of such things, as do other Christians who are vigilant and serious. I had seen the JWs and other groups being targeted solely on the same subject (like here), which will result in others chiming in and will attack the whole faith itself, for instance, the Charity Commission regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, the response from some was not to criticize the Jehovah's Witnesses on child abuse, it was comments targeting and insulting God the Father (the things they say of his name deemed too explicit), the Bible, and Christians as a whole, both mainstream and minorities, regardless of doctrine and theology.

Some go as far as to make articles for people to read online that insult God the Father and his Son, others have said that the Father had failed and his Son had failed due to the Child Abuse epidemic among religion and to this day, they continue to mock religion, more specifically, Christianity. Eventually it will come to a point, regardless of your faith, the Bible will be attacked, especially regarding of what took place in the Hebrew Old Testament involving Moses and the like, the list goes on, one of the more recent ones today being that the teaching of God should be considered a form of Child Abuse and will reference the whole Jesus camp situation regarding the children. If I am not mistaken, there was videos of JW publications and a large number of Bibles burned purposely by opponents.

But there are people (religious and non religious) who are not like this and are dong things the smart way, on both sides of the spectrum they're aware of Child Abuse in religion, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, they know of statistics and prevention rates, such persons will focus on the problem at hand instead of targeting and or condemning a faith because they were caught off guard by the abuse, they know that some denominations will not just sit back and do literally nothing, in this case, some claim that JWs do not do nothing, which is false, for they make an attempt and do so while trying to not break scripture. As for JW opponents, not once have they brought up anything regarding Child Abuse outside of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is evident, but ironically, it had to take an Ex-Bible Student, a Graphic Designer, and believe it or not, a Homosexual, to correct JW opponents, who attacked these persons, one of the attackers being the very man you linked here before via gofundme.

But what you can do, and everyone else here is just educate the people to see the signs of child abuse, I said something about that before,a s well as identifying a child who has been abuse, their body language and or if they are keeping what happen a secret, for most of the time they do not reveal such information to even their parents but to someone they trust - and the key role in Child Abuse Prevention taught to a child if they tell an adult and not much is done, tell another, and another, that is what the PSAs teach, and that is what people who know these things teach the children, so even a child can be able to identify anyone their age who has been abused and or recognize the actions of an abuser, in some cases the far more difficult ones to deal with which can be a near miss at times is child on child abuse, which is very rare in a religious space, majority of the time takes place in schools and the very household the victim is in be it a family member and or friend around the same age.

In the end, Jehovah's Witnesses, will be subjected to allegations, investigations and the like, spiritually the organization is indeed clean, hence why people are still converting to it, but the people are still imperfect, God knows that as well as the Free Will granted to all of mankind, and he knows people who at least try. Another thing to add is you also have to remember Child Abuse is not always something people want to talk about, mainly if you run up to them and immediately speak on this matter - the best course of action is to just get on their level, know the individual even then talk about the issue when it is comfortable to speak on such.

As the 3 individuals have stated prior JW opponents manage to get their videos removed, there are better ways of fighting the problem, better ways of fighting Child Abuse.

Lastly, just pay attention to some claims people make, for last I check Jehovah's Witnesses do not have firearms and guns under every one of their churches nor do they own preschools and private schools, a debate I had with 2 women, one who spoke on guns the other on preschool child abuse by JWs, when the reality is, they do not own or contribute to any of such things for JWs sole purpose, the purpose of an organized religion is adhering to the Great Commission.

Know that I respect your resolve, but it is necessary to be aware of everything and dealing with the problem itself, and not the group as a whole, for we are to condemn, we may as well condemn, everything else around us. When the end times and tribulations conclude, peace will be among all people even among the JWs and we will not have to worry about Child Abuse, nor the life that we had when we were imperfect.

Just endure, and should you educate someone, a JW even, on child abuse and or the signs, be on their level and be mild with them in doing so for attacking one's faith an or its leaders will not help anyone for it is better to speak with someone when teaching vital information to them, for I can already see the issue of child abuse is what angers you, it angers me too, but I know from my battle scars and of the scars of others on how to deal with such issue and waking up to the reality of it in today's day and age.

If we can teach a child about puberty, about stranger danger and the like, we can teach them about child abuse. If we can teach an adult to be a good employee, a good family man and or woman, we can teach them on child abuse also.

Share this post


Link to post

The thought just occurred to me, that is we as Jehovah's Witnesses become tired of waiting on the Governing Body to straighten out this problem, AND hold those accountable, we can do it OURSELVES.

Report EVERYTHING to the police ... and let them sort it out.

Apparently THEIR system of Truth and Justice works better than ours!

Not perfect ..... just better.

Share this post


Link to post

  • Similar Content

    • By Isabella
      Institutions such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Presbyterian Church and the Disability Trust have not signed up to the national redress scheme, delaying compensation for child abuse survivors.
      While some institutions, such as the Brisbane Boys' College and the Society of Saint Vincent de Paul, have flagged their intention to join the scheme, others have not.
      The government has publicly named and shamed the groups singled out in the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse that have not signed up to the redress scheme.
      There are expected to be more unnamed institutions where abuse occurred.
      Ten per cent of applications lodged by survivors - about 700 - have been put on hold because the organisations responsible for their abuse have not joined.
      "It is a lot but some of those are in the process of signing up," Social Services Minister Anne Ruston told ABC radio on Tuesday.
      Institutions have until June 30 to join the redress scheme, which was launched two years ago.
      While some organisations responsible for abuse no longer exist, others claim they do not have the financial capacity to compensate their victims.
      Read more: 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Some institutions are still signing up to the redress scheme, Minister Anne Ruston says.
    • By Witness
      The world is watching the Watchtower's antics, in the grotesque sense of the word.  
       
    • By Witness
      For those who were unable to see the documentary last evening on "Oxygen".
       
    • By Isabella
      The organization allegedly directed elders in all of its United States congregations to send detailed reports on members facing an allegation of sexually abusing a child to its headquarters.
      Since the late 1990s blue envelopes from Jehovah’s Witness congregations across the country have been sent to the organization’s headquarters. But, it’s the information inside those envelopes that contain damaging secrets. 
      The blue envelopes contained detailed reports of members within the religion accused of child molestation. Officials scanned those documents into a database of files for each congregation, according to a sworn deposition by an official with The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society obtained by Reveal, the website for the Center for Investigative Reporting. 
      But the specific details within that database have largely remained a secret—despite court orders and calls from the public to release its contents, leading some to accuse the organization of concealing suspected child abusers. 
      The child abuse files were collected after the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society—the organization that oversees the Jehovah’s Witnesses—sent a request in March 1997 to all of its United States congregations requesting that each congregation write a detailed report about anyone within the religion who had been accused of child molestation and send it to the headquarters in the special blue envelope, according to The Atlantic
      Full article: 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • By Witness
      Article in People Magazine:

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
    • Guest Indiana
      By Guest Indiana
      Juror Dan Stinnett, in his first interview about the case, explained how he and eight other Sanders County jurors found the Jehovah’s Witnesses governing organizations negligent and “guilty of malice” in the child sexual abuse of Alexis Nunez, awarding her $35 million. “I believe they were trying to cover up, yes. I have no doubt about that,” Stinnett said. When asked if he was trying to send a message with his jury vote, Stinnett responded, “Why, absolutely. We as jurors and as society really don’t condone … any of this.”
      The Nunez case is one of dozens tallied by the Hearst Television National Investigative Unit as part of a yearlong investigation that uncovered new allegations of child sexual abuse and decadeslong cover-ups inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses religious organization in the United States. The allegations span congregations, states and generations.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • By Witness
      From John Redwood...
      A preview of upcoming news:
      Jehovah's Witnesses are appealing to the Supreme Court of the United States, but this time it has nothing to do with preaching or saluting the flag.
      It's all about child abuse.
      Specifically, the protection (or cover-up) of information, documents, and testimony of persons involved in cases of child abuse.
      I will be covering this story in the coming weeks and months, but I thought I would share some of this news and try to distill it down as simply as I can.
      I'd like to point out first that Watchtower has appealed to the Supreme Court in connection with their loss of yet another California child abuse case. The chance that Watchtower's appeal being will be heard by the Supreme Court is slim, but anything is possible.
      What brought this about?
      There are many ongoing civil child abuse cases in California. One such case is J.W. versus Watchtower. J.W. happens to be the initials for the victim of former JW elder Gilbert Simental, who went on a spree of molestation which touched the lives of numerous victims.
      As with other cases, the plaintiff demanded that Watchtower turn over to the court a database of child abuse cases known to be maintained by Watchtower of New York.
      In this particular case, because Watchtower failed to turn over the documents in a timely manner, attorneys asked for a default judgment of just over 4 million dollars.
      The court agreed with the plaintiff and entered a default judgment in that amount. Watchtower was required to post a bond of more than 6 million dollars while their appeal was pending.
      Watchtower lost their appeal, and the decision of the court was upheld. This decision is final- with one exception.
      Watchtower has decided to appeal to the United States Supreme court on the basis that their judicial hearings related to child abuse matters are "confidential intra-faith communications" and that they do not, and should not, reveal those communications or documents to anyone, including civil courts.
      I'd like to make it very clear what Watchtower is doing here. They are fighting for their right NOT to allow civil authorities to dictate what is confidential, and what is not confidential.
      All of this is in relation to their claim that elders do not have the right or duty to report child abuse to the authorities.
      Watchtower overtly lies to their members by claiming that they obey secular laws, except when they conflict with God's laws.
      Yet they break the law every single time by advising elders NOT to report child abuse to the authorities.
      It does NOT matter whether child abuse occurs in a mandatory reporting state- elders STILL do not report to the police because Watchtower has told them that ALL of their communications are protected by clergy-penitent privilege.
      This is false- and it is exactly why they are losing tens of millions of dollars in child abuse civil cases. Watchtower advises elders to break the law.
      And now they want the Supreme Court of the United States to agree with them.
      The claim that the state of California has unfairly targeted Jehovah's Witnesses and "intruded upon matters of church governance."
      Why???
      How does compliance with mandatory child abuse reporting laws conflict with God's laws? It doesn't. This is a fabrication of Watchtower attorneys working for the Governing Body, and it's become quite clear that they feel that compliance with these civil laws will spell disaster for their religion.
      And they might be right.
      If Jehovah's Witnesses did the right thing and complied with the law, they would lose the tight grip of control over their elder bodies in ways which frighten the hell out of them.
      There is a whole lot more to this story as well as the underlying cases involved, but I wanted to let you know what's going on.
      Attorneys for J.W. (the abuse victim) will be filing an opposition to Watchtower's appeal in August, and we should have a decision from the Supreme Court by October on whether they will accept Jehovah's Witnesses appeal for review.
      Stay tuned!!

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      OK, I know some people will not like this and they will call it gossip but my wife and I are worried about it so it needs to aired out.
      We have one daughter that is still a JW. i will call her H.  She is married to a non JW. She has 4 children.
      This daughter does not seem to recognise any dangers at all about her children. She invites anyone to her house without really knowing who they are or anything about their past.
      3 of the children are girls and they attend ballet and tap dance lessons. They are only young, the oldest being around 8 years old. 
      Today they were in a performance /show in Exeter, a biggish show that their teacher was putting on for all parents, grandparents, etc. 
      I wasn't allowed to go of course as I'm a 'naughty boy' that left the Org.
      My wife went to the show and was surprised to find two 'brothers' there.
      One of the 'brothers' is a young single Elder and the other 'brother' is an old man that has recently been reinstated and moved into Honiton congregation.  
      This older man frequently visits H and her daughters at their home and the girls call him Uncle Phil. He seems very 'friendly' toward the girls.
      H does not know where this 'brother' is from but he is now part of the Honiton Congregation which H and her children attend, here in Devon. 
      It seems strange to me that this man has just arrived at Honiton Congregation and just been reinstated. My wife says he has a London accent. 
      If I were still a JW I would ask him bluntly why he was disfellowshipped and where he is from, but of course I cannot do that now.
      I have his full name, so is there any way i can run a check on him ? 
      Should i contact an Elder at Honiton Congregation and tell them of the concern my wife and I have ? 
      If this 'brother' had been involved in a child abuse accusation would they have told H about it so that she could be on her guard ? 
      Some on here may think I'm just trying to cause trouble, but my wife came home this evening and is looking very worried. 
      It seems that H had invited both 'brothers' to the meal afterward and my wife felt unhappy about the whole situation. 
      TTH will probably bring out the rule book again and say 'it never happens', but child abuse does happen and needs to be looked for all the time. 
      Our daughter H seems to have no idea about the situations that have taken place, and in honesty she doesn't want to know. So how can my wife warn her ?  
       
       
       
       
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      I've often thought of this point of reproof from the platform. It does nothing positive at all, it just leaves people wondering why the person was reproved.
      And it certainly does not protect the congregation.  
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      by  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. In January of 2019, elders in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses were issued a new version of their confidential handbook, "Shepherd the Flock of God." This handbook covers, among other topics, when a person should be "reproved."
      For those unfamiliar with the their practices, Jehovah's Witness elders might determine that someone guilty of a serious sin is repentant and will be "reproved" rather than disfellowshipped [excommunicated]. This reproof might be administered privately, or it might include a very brief announcement to the congregation.
      Public Reproofs Are Not a Protection
      The "Shepherd" book makes the claim that a public reproof serves as a "protection" to the congregation against certain dangerous behaviors, such as child sexual abuse; note this statement from chapter 14, "Child Abuse::

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. However, this announcement of reproof includes no information about the person's "sinful" behavior, as instructed in chapter 16, "Procedure for Judicial Hearings":

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. The "Shepherd" book even outright instructs that a person's sinful acts should not be connected to their reproof, such as when a "warning" talk is given regarding their behavior; also from chapter 16:

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. This statement alone demonstrates that the entire "public reproof" arrangement protects no one from congregation members who might pose a danger to others, including children. Simply stating that someone has "been reproved" doesn't warn a congregant of that person's specific behavior, and especially when there is a long list of reasons why someone might be publicly reproved, including:
      Smoking Fornication, adultery Theft Lying, slander Various forms of "apostasy" Severe fits of temper, fighting Drunkenness Using narcotics Taking up boxing After hearing a rather generic announcement that someone has been "reproved," without knowing the actual reason for that reproof, how would congregants know to keep their children away from them? Another congregant might assume that a person being reproved was caught smoking or fornicating with an adult; child sexual abuse might be the last thing they would consider when they hear of someone having been reproved!
      Your Conscience Shouldn't Be Clean
      This begs the question of why Jehovah's Witnesses think that their consciences can be clean in these cases. Elders honestly think that making an announcement of so-and-so having been "reproved" protects the congregation and so they've done their job of keeping people and children safe?
      Nothing can be further from the truth, especially when it comes to child sexual abuse. This "public reproof" arrangement purposely conceals the action that warranted the reproof, so it warns no one about a congregant who might be a danger to their children.
      This announcement does not take away from an elder's complicity in hiding allegations of abuse. Any elder who hears of such a credible allegation and doesn't notify authorities, cooperate with their investigations fully, and then do everything possible to keep a potentially dangerous person away from children shares guilt and blame if that person goes on to molest another child.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. The bottom line is that Jehovah's Witnesses and elders especially have no problem lying to themselves and to the general public about their supposed "protections" for congregants. They shield alleged molesters by purposely ensuring that no information about a particular act is associated with "reproved" persons, and then tell themselves that this passive-aggressive "hinting around" is going to somehow alert congregants to the need to keep their child away from him or her.
      While the authors of these practices and the elders charged with enforcing them might go to bed with a clean conscience, remember it's not them who suffer the consequences of their actions; the elders are not being raped and abused, the men who wrote this "Shepherd" book are not the ones who will be the next victims of these "reproved" persons.
      Their complicity in this horrific act is bad enough, but their smug self-righteousness in thinking that they've somehow done enough to protect children with a generic "reproof" is just another slap across the face of those same children.
    • By Witness
      "On Sunday, March 31, Anthony Morris, a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, was filmed at Bottle King, a discount booze store in Ramsey, NJ, buying 12 bottles of very expensive single malt. My “Bottlegate” video sharing the footage has since accumulated tens of thousands of views, with many saying the incident represents an act of hypocrisy from a man famous for his somewhat judgmental approach to morality and Christian living. The team discusses the permutations of the remarkable footage, and the widely known culture of drinking at bethel."
      This video expresses the opinions of a past member of Bethel in Australia, and those of his wife, also Mark O'Donnell whose story under the article " A Secret Database of Child Abuse" was posted in The Atlantic, and "Covert Fade", author at JWsurvey.  
      From the comments I have seen here, JWs are measuring Anthony Morris' actions by worldly standards; yet, for someone who claims to be "faithful and discreet", worldly standards do not apply.  
      "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."  Matt 5:20
       
       
    • Guest Indiana
      By Guest Indiana
      Were you or a loved one sexually abused by Gonzalo Campos, an elder with various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations in the San Diego area?
      Legal Support For Alleged Victims Of Gonzalo Campos
      After admitting to molesting at least 8 children during the 1980s and 1990s, Campos fled to Mexico, evading criminal justice here in California, but some sexual abuse survivors may still be eligible to file suit against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York.
       
      The Watchtower, the national organization for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, has already settled at least two lawsuits involving Campos’ misconduct. In March 2018, the organization came to terms with two of Campos’ victims, men who claimed the elder abused them decades ago. Neither the Watchtower nor the plaintiffs are allowed to disclose details of the settlement.
      Experienced Attorneys Launch Full Investigation
      Our compassionate sexual abuse attorneys believe that other victims of Campos may still be able to pursue justice, accountability and compensation by filing a civil lawsuit. We have opened a full investigation into the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to understand how Campos was allowed to remain around children, even after serious sexual abuse allegations had been filed against him.
      We understand the powerful storm of emotions that sexual abuse can cause. You may still be struggling to deal with painful feelings of embarrassment and shame, rage or depression. You do not have to go through this alone. Our committed legal team is here to help.
      You may have powerful legal options. The prospect of stepping forward to report the abuse may seem terrifying, but it can be a powerful step on the road to recovery. You deserve justice. You may also be entitled to financial compensation. Filing a civil lawsuit can help you take control of this terrible situation. The Watchtower should be held accountable.
      Watchtower Hit By Court Penalty For Withholding Evidence
      The Watchtower has already been accused of hindering investigations into allegations of child sexual abuse. In the cases involving Gonzalo Campos, the Watchtower was ordered to pay a penalty of $4,000 every day because it refused to turn over internal documents containing information about church leaders who had been accused of child sexual abuse.
      This was not the first time the Watchtower failed to stand up for sexual abuse survivors.
      Critics say Gonzalo Campos was allowed to abuse at least 8 children in San Diego between 1982 and 1995, even though the Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations he belonged to were aware of his misconduct. After abusing a 7-year-old in 1994, Campos was removed from the Church, but he was reinstated by church elders who claimed he was a changed man.
      In their lawsuits, two men who said they had been abused by Campos accused church elders of knowing about Campos’ misconduct as early as 1982, but covering it up and allowing him to continue working with young children. We believe the victims.
       

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • By JOHN BUTLER
      OK, I've sort of shot myself in the foot by saying I'm now going to take this forum as a joke and have a laugh. In most ways i will continue to do so BUT.
      This evening I was given some information that 1.maybe I shouldn't have been given. 2. Maybe i wish i hadn't been given. 
      Some of you may say I'm telling lies. Some of you may say I'm just after attention. Some may say I'm just trying to put down the JW Org.
      However i have to think on something i say a lot. DUTY OF CARE. Care of everyone, in or out of that JW Org. 
      I have been given this information :-
      Somewhere between 18 months to 2 years ago, a young man that is a member of Honiton Congregation (my ex congregation) committed a sexual offence against a young girl that would have been around 7 or 8 years old at that time.. 
      The young man was visiting the home of this child and he went up to the girl's bedroom and asked the girl to have sex with him. I do not think that sexual intercourse took place but from the information that I've been given, he laid her on the bed and got on top of her and 'humped' her as if he were having sexual intercourse with her.  
      The incident was reported to the Elders and the police were not informed. I have no idea what action the Elders took but the congregation were not informed.
      The young man ( who's name I have ) would have been in his very early twenties at the time, but his mental age is lower. He is a bit slow in learning things and possibly has mental disorders. That is not meant as an insult, but i do know this young man personally and he does act a bit strange sometimes and frightens people.  
      The young man's father was a single dad of three children ( i knew this man quite well ), but he invited a foreign lady (a sister in the JW Org) over to the UK, and they married. The marriage did not go well as the woman wanted to 'be the boss'. They split up and she went back to her country of origin. But then she came back to have a 'second try' at the marriage.  I do not know the marriage situation at this time. However the whole issue would have been totally upsetting for the three children, especially for this young man that found it difficult to cope with some situations. 
      The person that gave me this information, in my opinion, is completely trustworthy, and once again in my opinion, would not have any reason for making up a 'story'. As I was given the young man's name, and i know the young man and his father, it all seems quite genuine to me.
      Now i come back to the duty of care.  For, in my opinion, it is the duty of anyone that has any information concerning child abuse to report it to the police. 
      This could be just a one off incident, but it could be the start of a young man becoming a pedophile. I honestly don't know where my duty is here. 
      The young girl that was the victim of this assault may need help getting over the situation. The information was also that the father of the victim does not want 'any trouble'. Hence he did not want the police involved. That helped the Elders to keep it secret, well almost. 
      Now this young man may commit sexual assault again, within the JW congregation or outside of it.  And that young lady will be in fear of him and yet still have to attend that Kingdom hall where she will see him every week. 
      So should i report what i have been told to the police or not ? Of course I would have to tell the police it is only third hand information.
      BUT, if the police could get hold of the 'records' / paperwork from the Kingdom hall regarding the incident, then it would be proved as true. 
      I do not expect that the Elders would willingly hand over paperwork, so I've no idea how it would work out in the end. But it's my actions that I'm concerned about here , my responsabilites. What should i do ?  
       
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      From the Newspaper the “San Diego Reader” - October 12, 2017
      Jehovah's Witnesses look in other direction
      Lawyers for religious group argue against daily fines in sex-abuse case
      By Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
       
      Attorneys for the Jehovah's Witness church appeared before a state appellate court yesterday (October 11) in hopes of overturning the $4000 daily sanctions that a trial court ordered them to pay for refusing to turn over documents in one of two sex-abuse cases.
       
      Osbaldo Padron, a former parishioner of the Linda Vista Jehovah's Witness congregation, filed his lawsuit against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, JehovahÂ’s WitnessesÂ’ governing body, in 2013. Padron was one of seven people who sued the kingdom over sexual abuse they suffered by a former church elder, Gonzalo Campos.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Campos admitted to molesting seven children from 1982 to 1999. Despite his admission, church elders agreed to let Campos rejoin the congregation after a four-year expulsion.
       
      In a 1999 letter, Linda Vista church elder Eduardo Chavez argued for reinstating Campos. He wrote, “In our meeting with him he said he was very repentant for what he did. He stated that he wanted to return to Jehovah. He is willing to face the victims and ask their forgiveness. He now wants to obey Jehovah. Before, when he would speak to people on the platform he would not meditate on what he was doing. Although he needed to confess, he felt shameful and had fear of mankind. He would deceive himself thinking that he could continue serving as an elder. Now he realized that he could not change without help. Ever since his expulsion he has not abused anyone."
       
      In 2010, five victims sued the Watchtower for allowing Campos to serve as an elder despite having knowledge that he molested several children in the congregation. Watchtower settled that case in 2012. The terms of the settlement as well as the evidence against the Watchtower were sealed.
       
      Two more victims, Padron and José Lopez, followed suit.
       
      In 2013, San Diego Superior Court judge Joan Lewis ordered Watchtower to pay $13.5 million for repeatedly refusing to turn over documents that showed the church was aware of sexual abuse and did nothing to stop it.
       
      Attorneys for the Watchtower filed an appeal. They argued that Judge Lewis had acted too soon in issuing the $13.5 million in sanctions and instead the trial court should have imposed less severe sanctions. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .
       
      In their ruling, the justices wrote, "We conclude the court erred in ordering terminating sanctions because there was no evidence that lesser sanctions would have failed to obtain Watchtower's compliance with the document production order and because there were other possible sanctions that could have effectively remedied the discovery violation. On remand, the court has broad discretion to start with a different sanction that does not wholly eliminate Watchtower's right to a trial."
       
      Then, last year in the Padron case, a different superior court judge, Richard Strauss, followed the appellate court's advice and instead of issuing terminating sanctions Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. for refusing to turn over the documents that Padron's attorneys had requested.
      Again, Watchtower's attorneys filed an appeal.
       
      On October 11, those attorneys appeared before the Fourth District Appellate Court to argue that the trial court was wrong to issue daily sanctions — exactly what they had argued for in the appellate court Lopez case just months prior.
       
      Justice Richard Huffman did not hide his displeasure that Watchtower's attorneys were arguing against what they had previously supported to the same court.
      "You can't have it both ways," Huffman said during argument. "[The Lopez] ruling has come around to bite you and now you're saying, 'not fair, not fair.' You were headed in one direction before and now youÂ’re headed another way. It's a breathtaking position to listen to."
      The appellate court has 90 days to issue its formal ruling."
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Our donations are being used to OBSTRUCT JUSTICE !
       
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      .
      TIRED OF BEING MANIPULATED BY FAKE NEWS?
      VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION ... GET EDUCATED ABOUT WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON AROUND YOU!
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
       
      With Case Study 54 only a few days away, THIS FRIDAY (AUSTRALIAN TIME) MARCH 10, 2017 (You do the math for local time...) a lot of discussion has been circulating as to exactly what we can expect when Watchtower appears once again before the Australian Royal Commission.
      I’ve decided to chip in a few observations here to help set expectations and to contribute to the discussions as best I’m able. So without further ado, let’s quickly run through what we know:
       
      What exactly will be discussed?   According to the Commission website, the scope of the study is as follows
      1.      The current policies and procedures of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd in relation to child protection and child-safe standards, including responding to allegations of child sexual abuse.
      2.      Factors that may have contributed to the occurrence of child sexual abuse at Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd institutions.
      3.      Factors that may have affected the institutional response of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd to child sexual abuse.
      4.      The responses of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia Ltd to relevant case study report(s) and other Royal Commission reports.
      5.      Any related matters.
      The purpose of this public hearing is not to inquire into individual sets of facts or particular events as has occurred in previous Royal Commission case studies.
      Why does the Case Study 54 hearing appear to be only one day long?   This may appear at first glance to be a surprise. How can a single day of testimony possibly be enough to cover the vast and complex issue of Watchtower’s child abuse scandal?
       
      Well, remember that Case Study 54 isn’t a fact finding mission. That was Case Study 29. The Commission spent days digging and interviewing, and Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . As far as the Commission is concerned, the facts are in. There is no further debate. Case Study 54 is tasked purely with a quick review of those facts and then with publicly asking Watchtower what is has done to address the damning failures identified in Case Study 29.
      Remember what Justice McClellan said to Watchtower’s legal team? That they were going to come back to Watchtower and publicly ask them what had been done to address the issues?
      That’s what this is.
       
      So what has Watchtower done in the 21 months since Case Study 29?   As far as I am aware, the only potential effort from  Watchtower to address any of the concerns raised in the Royal Commission has been to no longer require an abuse survivor to confront their attacker. However, it was not clear from testimony if this practice had actually been halted before the Commission sat. Watchtower seemed to insist in testimony that it was, but their documentation did not reflect this.
      Thus one cannot say with certainty that even this potential change has come as a result of the Commission report.
       
      So Watchtower is going to stand before the Commission, after 21 months, and basically say they’ve done nothing at all?   I have no idea.
       
      I mean, that would be the honest thing to do, but remember how slippery and devious Watchtower was in Case Study 29, with senior Watchtower officials like Rodney Spinks, Terrence O’Brain and Governing Body Member Geoffrey Jackson attempted to mislead and outright lie to the Commission on multiple occasions. As far as I can see, Watchtower has three options
       
      Admit they’ve done nothing and that they don’t intend to for religious reasons, and turn the whole thing into an issue of religious freedom.   Try to stall and muddy the waters by saying they’ve not had enough time, that they have no authority to make the changes required without Brooklyn agreement, knowing full well that Brooklyn is beyond the reach of the Commission. The idea here would be to stall until the day is over, then slink away and wait, knowing no further testimony is required.   Dive full into another round of misleading doublespeak and outright lies to try and pull the wool over the Commission’s eyes. Which one will they pick? Again I have no idea. Judging from Watchtower’s jaw-dropping legal incompetence in Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and in the recent Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , it’s very hard to predict their strategy. It seems to have no rhyme or reason, but keep in mind three things.
       
      The men in charge of Watchtower are firstly very deluded. They genuinely think they are defending God’s organization against Satanic and apostate attack, and feel that compromise will be a victory for Satan.   The men in charge of Watchtower are very out of touch with real life, spending all their days in a world where you don’t question Watchtower or those who run it, and now they’ve risen to the top. Their word is law. Odds are that no-one has told Anthony Morris III that his ideas are stupid for a very long time. They have no idea how to handle the kind of environment the Royal Commission brings to the table. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , where Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. was proof of that.   The men in charge of Watchtower are caught between being honest with a Commission that has all of their dirty little secrets on the one hand, and playing to the growing audience of JW’s who they know WILL find out about March 10th one way or the other. They have to both be as compliant as possible to the Commission whilst also appearing to be steadfast and unmovable to the Witnesses who will end up seeing the testimony on YouTube.   So delusion, seclusion, and public relations are all going to crash into once horrible mess as they did in Case Study 29 and as a result I have no idea what Watchtower will do on Friday.
       
      We  hope to preserve the live steam video for future reference as the Commission does not archive or make this video available once the live stream is over. However, technical gremlins are always a factor so if you have the ability to record the live stream, it would be a great idea to do so as well. The more people do this, the less chance of this footage being lost forever.
       
      Lastly we will of course be following up with articles on the day, giving you a more detailed analysis of what has transpired.
      Get your popcorn (and your coffee if you’re staying up late) and lets all observe the car crash together!
      And one last thing: if it is safe for you to do so, please tell as many Jehovah’s Witnesses as you can about the events on March 10th. Their children are at risk and they don’t even know it. They may choose not to look up the Case Study, but simply being aware that it exists is the first step in raising awareness that the Governing Body is not being honest with them about the international scandal of child abuse inside the Watchtower organization.
      (edited for political correctness and other stuff ...) JTR
       
       



    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      I just read that the Spanish organization "Abusos TJ" has sent a letter to the Ministry of the Interior on Wednesday to urge him to investigate the alleged cases of sexual abuse that have been concealed for years from the different congregations in Spain of the Jehovah's Witnesses. And the news shows this photo of the instructions given to the elders

      If these instructions are true, my question is what Bible base have these instructions? And why not inform the elders of the new congregation about a person who could be a danger to the community? 
    • By Jack Ryan
      The Jehovah's Witness Church in Australia failed to protect children in its care from sexual predators, a report has found.
      The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse delivered its report into the organisation on Monday.
      It stated that: "Children are not adequately protected from the risk of child sexual abuse in the Jehovah's Witness organisation and [the commission] does not believe the organisation responds adequately to allegations of child sexual abuse."
      Survivors of sexual abuse within the church and senior church members appeared before a public hearing last year.
      The inquiry heard the church received allegations of Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. over a 60-year period but did not report a single claim to police.
      In its report on the inquiry, the royal commission found that the organisation's general practice of "not reporting serious instances of child sexual abuse to police or authorities, demonstrated a serious failure on its part to provide for the safety and protection of children."
      The royal commission determined that the church's response to allegations of child sexual abuse were outdated, including a rule that there must be two witnesses to an incident, which "showed a serious lack of understanding of the nature of child sexual abuse".
      "It noted the rule, which the Jehovah's Witness organisation relies on, and applies inflexibly even in the context of child sexual abuse, was devised more than 2000 years ago," the report found.

      Royal commission chairman Justice Peter McClellan. Photo: Jeremy Piper
      The Jehovah's Witnesses approach to handling claims internally was not appropriate for children or survivors of sexual abuse, the report found.
      "Survivors are offered little or no choice in how their complaint is addressed, sanctions are weak with little regard to the risk of the perpetrator re-offending."
      The head of the Jehovah's Witness community's service desk, Rodney Spinks, is considering the report and is expected respond on Monday afternoon.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • Guest Nicole