CHILD SEX ABUSE INVESTIGATORS MAY PROBE THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Ohhhh ... I am sorry I missed them!

 

It was not anywhere near so biting as you imagine. But I took back even that because it appeared he was on the verge of a breakdown.

I mean, c'mon! He called me a servant of the devil. I am expected to instantly coo love back to him?

And he appears to have caught the spirit of the good advice I finally did give (not that it was in direct response) when he said:

Anyway the sun is shining here and i will go into our garden and give thanks to God for His creation. I hope you all have a pleasant day. i wish you no harm. As i keep saying, we are all individuals and all have our own opinions. So be it. Only time will tell right from wrong.  

Good. He needs time to cool down. So do I, perhaps. I don't disagree with those final words at all. Maybe he is even on to something. Because the sun sure isn't shining here as I look out my window.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley Matthew 16 v 22 & 23.  At this Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this happen to you at all.”v ^23  But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not GodÂ’s thoughts, but those of men.”

What was Jesus calling Peter here ?  Anyone can be a servant of the devil even if they have the right intentions as it seemed Peter did here. The devil will use anyone or anything for his purpose. So don't take it so personally. 

Nice that you think I'm on the verge of a breakdown though  ... Um, I think, ( though i don't know where to find the information right now  ), that the Governing Body have said, that some of the people that say they are anointed are possibly suffering from mental health issues. You see, you do have things in common with them. If you disagree with someone, you make it look as if the one you disagree with is unstable, copying the GB and also the Elders in some cases... Are you an Elder ? 

And yes I've cooled down as you put it. I've had lunch , taken my son to his work, been shopping for food and taken one of my vehicles to the garage for it's MOT test. (That is the UK law for older vehicles to have a safety test every year). You see, I'm quite a normal family man.

And Tom, I'm not even asking you to like me. I certainly don't expect you to 'coo love back to me'. I'm enjoying the difference of opinion we have, but still i mean you no harm. I've so often said, let's be practical not emotional.... 

And James, I find you so funny. I have no idea where you are coming from. I don't understand your comments as in I don't know what you are trying to convey to us.

I've just found this so thought i would add it here :-

"WHAT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF THOSE PARTAKING AT THE MEMORIAL? In recent years, we have seen an increase in the number of those partaking at the Memorial of Christ’s death. That trend contrasts with the decrease in the number of partakers that we saw for many decades. Should this increase trouble us? No. Let us consider some key factors to keep in mind. “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.” (2 Tim. 2:19) Those taking the count at the Memorial cannot judge who truly have the heavenly hope. The number of partakers includes those who mistakenly think that they are anointed. Some who at one point started to partake of the emblems later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Therefore, the number of partakers does not accurately indicate the number of anointed ones left on earth." Watchtower 2016 Jan study ed page 25 & page 26

"Memorial partakers. This is the number of baptized individuals who partake of the emblems at the Memorial worldwide. Does this total represent the number of anointed ones on earth? Not necessarily. A number of factors — including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance — might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling. We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know." Watchtower 2011 Aug 15 p.22

Just in case you think i make it all up.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And Tom, I'm not even asking you to like me

John, if I ever was to find myself on the outside looking in due to what I thought was primarily 'politics', I would continue to come to meetings, and take in the instruction that is to found nowhere else, while I waited for the bruhaha to pass. Seriously. There is no reason you cannot.

I have thought about it. Here I am on a site where villains traverse freely and there is abundant counsel not to hang out with them. It is counsel, not law, and I do not consider myself 'associating' with them, but things can be misunderstood and every so often some 'zealous-for-no-rivalry' person overacts. I don't think it is very likely at all, but it is not impossible.

I really would keep attending, so long as I felt Jehovah's Witnesses were right. I would figure that I was just termporarily on the outs with them, it will blow over eventually, and that i can always request reinstatement from time to time. Eventually one would stick. In the meantime, I would not insist that they 'come around.'  I would be open to the possibility that I might have contributed to the mess.

To be sure, I would miss the association, and I would probably not attend so constantly as I do now, which is almost without miss, but I would keep coming to the only place I know of where the Bible is discussed accurately. Though the association might be closed off, the spiritual food would remain undiminished.

I know of one person who, while disfellowshipped, began attending meetings. Elders soon spoke with her, and she had  no idea that she could be reinstated. She just figured the chasm would stay open till Armagedon but in the meantime she would go where she knew there was accurate knowledge.

Why did she have no idea? Who knows? Such times are emotional. Maybe elders did not make it sufficiently clear. She is back now. Until recently, elders made a real effort to personally contact each DF one in their territory at least once a year. That's better 'service' than the typical non-Witness gets. Don't tell me they are not interested in people.

John, you are at a crossroads. Don't screw it up, becasue it will affect your family more than you. Don't regard it as a pissing contest between you and the GB. Tell your kids: 'yeah, I got in a tiff with the brothers, but it will smooth out in time,' If you are truly convinced that the GB should be removed, be like David, who knew he was to be king, but in the meantime would not lay a hand on 'Jehovah's annointed' and rebuked those who tried to make him go there.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

29 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Therefore, WHO really do you need to thank for such division, here, if NOT those that started this forum over 5 years ago?

Don't look at me. I was nowhere close.    (who?)

Oh. Wait. I just reread and went on to the 2nd portion. You know, @James Thomas Rook Jr. is right and I really do appreciate his observation, though I am not sure he made it for that reason. I do miss things.

I will say it is because my mind is a veritable hive of activity, grappling with 100 ideas at once while the average person can do but one.

He will say it is because I am dumb.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

TTH:

You are definitely NOT dumb, just terribly unfocused.

This is a common problem of highly intelligent people ..... I STRONGLY suspect that 20mg of Adderall, once a day would sharpen your focus so that you could cut steel with your vision. The "100 ideas at once" was the key that caused me to diagnose that.

Of course, I am not a Doctor, although I have seen some on TV.

Look up the symptoms of "Attention Deficit Disorder".

... and don't worry about becoming a "speed addict".  We are ALL, each and every one of us totally addicted to water.  If we do not have our "fix" every day, our system starts collapsing, we have severe withdrawal symptoms, and we will die, without water.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... it could be worse ..... you could snore.

 

https://www.theonion.com/report-snoring-may-increase-risk-of-having-throat-slit-1823953225?utm_source=TheOnion_Daily_RSS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=&utm_term=

[TrueTomHarley]

45 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I STRONGLY suspect that 20mg of Adderall, once a day would sharpen your focus so that you could cut steel with your vision. The "100 ideas at once" was the key that caused me to diagnose that.

 

I appreciate this. I really do, and you are not that far off the mark. Unfortunately, I tend to distrust such things, as a result of observing, reading, and yes, even some personal experience. 

I am content that I can sleep sound at night, or would, if I did not have to rise and pee, a condition not uncommon at my age. Usually I fall right back to sleep. But occasionally I must check to see that they are behaving with reasonable decorum at the WorldNewMedia and that the Librarian has not fallen off the wagon again.

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

That isn’t necessarily factual. Butler can be considered an agent of Satan’s Works. Matthew 13:38 It would be no different than those that go against Christ teachings, 2 Corinthians 11:15, especially those that cause strife and division within God’s people. Romans 16:17, Philippians 3:2

This is something that has alluded professed Christians here to think they can apply scripture on the one hand, and defy it in the other. 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

Just because the subject matter is an impassioned human condition, doesn’t absolve anyone from breaking God’s commands. Ephesians 2:1-3

Therefore, WHO really do you need to thank for such division, here, if NOT those that started this forum over 5 years ago? In order to sully the Watchtower with their personal views and complaints.

I do not believe John Butler is an agent and or servant of Satan, for I have truly seen people who are pawns of Satan and have challenged them before, nor do I believe Witness is either - for these two are quite far from it and real servants of Satan are very obvious, an example would be the Cemetery incident with Christians vs Satanist  a Minnesota, the abortion protesting, and the Black Mass temples to mock Christians. However, both of them are simply on the wrong path and going about the situation the wrong way, one of them even has accepted and or given himself up to the likes of conspiracy while at the same time believes that the Father and the Son would want that.

Sadly, a good man or a good woman may think they are in the right, but the tragedy is, they do not see what is going on behind the blindfold they have on their faces and others who see them will only see that their works is not good and not smart. 

[TrueTomHarley]

45 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

... it could be worse ..... you could snore.

Tell me about it. I can hear you from here   

[Space Merchant]

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM wanted an example of the GB changing meaning of scripture, but you Tom will know of some I'm sure. 1. the meaning of the scripture. 'This generation will not pass away' .. 2. the meaning of the scripture concerning 'the Superior Authorities'.  That is just two from memory.

Are you sure about that regarding the generating passing away being incorrect on their part? There are many, many people who understands that including the position and or condition of co-ruling persons chosen as priests and or selected for priesthood. JWs refer to these persons as Anointed ones, other Christians refer to this group as those chosen for Priesthood, the Chosen Ones to rule with Christ, or simply persons selected from Tribes, etc. The only group that is recognized for changing this generation thing slightly is the Black Israelites, and obviously for them, it will include a sole race and or tribe of people that are selected when the position of priesthood in the Messianic Kingdom is of those who are literally sacrificing themselves in Spirit in order to serve God no matter what.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I've just found this so thought i would add it here :-

"WHAT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF THOSE PARTAKING AT THE MEMORIAL? In recent years, we have seen an increase in the number of those partaking at the Memorial of Christ’s death. That trend contrasts with the decrease in the number of partakers that we saw for many decades. Should this increase trouble us? No. Let us consider some key factors to keep in mind. “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.” (2 Tim. 2:19) Those taking the count at the Memorial cannot judge who truly have the heavenly hope. The number of partakers includes those who mistakenly think that they are anointed. Some who at one point started to partake of the emblems later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Therefore, the number of partakers does not accurately indicate the number of anointed ones left on earth." Watchtower 2016 Jan study ed page 25 & page 26

"Memorial partakers. This is the number of baptized individuals who partake of the emblems at the Memorial worldwide. Does this total represent the number of anointed ones on earth? Not necessarily. A number of factors — including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance — might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling. We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know." Watchtower 2011 Aug 15 p.22

With this information, one has to consider how the history of the Memorial/Passover in general memorial. For the most part, not all of them are identical, slightly different - in the end, regardless, the Passover has to be respected as well as anyone proven to be in a position of Priesthood, which is very very VERY important. And this is true about those curious of taking embalms or in other religions, taking of the chametz and the like, this is why in some events when there is a gathering - some who know of people who.

In the end, no mistakes can be made, no false calling of Priesthood can be made, no wrongdoing can be made because on a day like that one should not be fooling around for the Passover is no joke - people of today's society will go as far as to mock the event, even disrupt and or interrupting a Passover, such vile unrepentant persons and their accomplices will stand in front of the White Throne and be judged.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley Matthew 16 v 22 & 23.  At this Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this happen to you at all.”v ²³  But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”

What was Jesus calling Peter here ?  Anyone can be a servant of the devil even if they have the right intentions as it seemed Peter did here. The devil will use anyone or anything for his purpose. So don't take it so personally. 

You have to be more in depth when explaining that, for verses like that can make and easily blind a Christian when they do not understand it.

Jesus was not identifying Peter with Satan the Devil but was referring to him as a resister - meaning of the Hebrew expression "sa·tan". Jesus may have posed that Peter, by his action on this occasion, had allowed himself to be influenced by Satan - denial of Jesus.

Read it here: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/satan/

As well as take a good look at the word "Stumbling (Stumbling Block), which in Greek is σκάνδαλον: http://biblehub.com/greek/4625.htm

Secondary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stumbling_block

The Greek word skandalon (σκάνδαλον), translates to stumbling block, usually refer to also a trap, in addition to other words in the Strong's - and we all know what a trap is (also do not confuse the word for its verb counterpart, Skandalizo - σκανδαλίζω). By extension, it came to refer to any impediment that would cause one to fall down, in this case, to stumble (stumbling block). In a sense, it refers to an action that leads a one to follow a path that is improper, to stumble, in this case, to fall into sin. the verb counterpart roughly translates make/cause to stumble, and is often rendered as become and or becoming a snare; cause to sin.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now, will you admit that some Elders are so upset with the Org that they are actually going against the Org and they are putting documents / letters up online for the public to read. I would compare this to the people of the Nation of Israel who were born Jews, but they chose to turn against the Jewish way of life and become Christians. They did not forsake God did they ? They allowed their God given conscience to guide them in the right direction. So it is for me, I haven't forsaken God or Jesus Christ, but in this day and age it's difficult to know the right direction. 

The Jews were always Jews and yes they became Christians, but they never turned away from the laws they were born into, in a sense, there were good Jews and bad ones, for you have to remember, there were Jews that followed Jesus and adhere to his teachings about God. In Paul's against, some Christians were indeed against him to the point he had to excommunicate them for messing around in the temple and or the congregation.

But on about Jehovah's Witnesses, this is the case with all religions, for if someone does not like what a religion is doing in terms of how they operate, they will "leak" information of said religion in an attempt to sully them. This is on the grounds of an attempt of killing a faith and or denomination. At times, even with the so called leaked information, they mix it with conspiracy and when you give in to conspiracy and added falsehood to what is leak it will cause influence, and influence injuries and or gets people kill and a few close calls. Do not know if you are aware of the JW that was stabbed to death and the people of UK are blaming this hate crime those who influence it, as do most Hate Crimes in the United Kingdom originates off the information and words of those on the internet.

Such is not difficult, you are a Christian, yes? In this day and age nothing should be questioned and or marked as difficult if you have a lifestyle of a Christian based on scripture.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now coming back to, what i know I know.  Before I left the Org, I have been in a brother's house talking about things and he has said to me, 'This is between you and me. Don't tell the elders'. Brothers and sisters are honestly frightened of the Elders. Bros and sis are frightened of being disfellowshipped because it is their whole life, their only friends, it's all they have in life. And when a person gets disfellowshipped they are left with nothing. i think that is disgusting. That people should be so frightened of men, because of the 'power' those men hold over people. But you Tom seem to love it. 

No one likes to be excommunicated regardless of which faith they follow, then again, you taking the words of those who obviously do not like the faith. I can give several examples of a Muslim, of a Jew, and a lot of examples of a JW.

Since this is the case, this JW Christian was excommunicated 2 times, even when she is unable to speak to the members of the church, she attends anyways but at the same time was embarrassed of her actions, her first excommunications was due to her messing around with a guy that was a bit too close, and thus sexual relations happen and she was pregnant. She stated when there were gatherings of bible study, she sat in the back, knowing that her actions reap such a consequence, especially that of her family for since she was African, not Black African American, she was bounded by culture, and pregnancy with someone who is not well known to a family, in this case, the JW church will indeed cause shunning. Prior to her being part of the JW faith again, family and friends still supported her and came around when the girl was showing that she wants to come back and eventually she did, as for her child, she now attends the church with her mother.

The second excommunication was when the guy came around again, another pregnancy of course, which lead to her son being born. Her family, who now knew who this man was lectured the man, Jamaican guy, it is unclear of what took place after that when when seems later down the road she ends up marrying that man, and the girl herself was a JW again and this time having 2 children, who are JWs, as for the Jamaican man, ironically, this guy was a God fearing soul who didn't know much about JWs, ended up going to English JW church instead of an African one, of which he said to have gone to from time to time, mind you, this was about a decade ago, the excommunications took place a few years apart.

This event of which I speak of took place in Maryland, US at the time, I was living with a friend's family after they lost their relatives in Educador, and since we were close we remain with them just to help them get back on their feet again. That JW girl is a close friend of that family too. As for the girl herself, she is still a JW, goes to both African and English churches with her husband and 2 children, she didn't fear the elders, no, but she, like the others, want to be in the right with God the Father - for even the excommunicated will not stoop down into a warpath against a faith just because they had been kicked out, they still respect the people, the faith and God the Father and if they are in position to defend a group they are kicked out of, they will, hence why I mentioned the 3 individuals who took issue with JW opponents who appeared at Warwick and caused a church disruption in a Passaic County JW church, which didn't sit well with the community of Passaic and Orange County.

Other then that it was not the elders she feared, it was her position with God. Now let's say if this woman was in an American Church that didn't really teach about God, her actions would openly be accepted no matter what without some form of punishment, but obviously they would cause her family to be against the church due to African culture and way of life, which will cause the church to condemn the family of the girl as being servants of Satan, and with that in min you know how things would go for it seems mainstream Christians are open to about everything, even pro-abortion if they really want to gain some converts.

That being said, I know a great deal of JWs young and old, several of which who had been excommunicated and had return, others who didn't because they knew they had problems and wanted to get their head straighten out first, but they are not always shunned by their families because they do not speak ill of the faith and or of God, and ironically such persons do defend Jehovah's Witnesses even though they are excommunicated and they made their stories known but it is snuffed out and removed by JW opponents sadly.

In the end, it isn't not about fear of men who are as Shepherds, it is about one's position with God.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I think you know what I'm saying about the 'so and so is no longer a Jehovah's Witness' thing. it is a way of telling the whole congregation not to talk to that one. Whereas the Bible gives examples / reasons for the ones that should be avoided. By not saying a person  'left the Org of their own choice' , or 'was disfellowshipped', the GB are deliberately telling the congregation not to talk to anyone that has left the Organisation. However, I don't think that is what the scripture means. Hence i say misuse of scripture.

Anyway the sun is shining here and i will go into our garden and give thanks to God for His creation. I hope you all have a pleasant day. i wish you no harm. As i keep saying, we are all individuals and all have our own opinions. So be it. Only time will tell right from wrong.  

Well it was quite evident in what you posted, you weren't a fan of nor was the other guy, who can somehow predict how others feel about church leaders right off the bat if he was not the type of guy to mingle well with JWs despite being one, unless you are leaving out details.

The bible speaks of those to avoid yes, and it also speaks of those who talk ill of the faith of a Christian and or accursed the teachings (false prophets). But you may need to be careful of contradicting what you say here, an example would be about the Watchtower article you posted about Theocratic War Strategy aka Spiritual Warfare, ignoring the fact that such Spiritual Warfare, which is a just thing to do when defending the faith and service to God, was done by even servants of the God of Israel in the past, including in ancient Bible days, for such actions have been done mostly by women who were indeed knowing of who the God of Israel is. For if we are to deem JWs are lairs, then it would be safe for someone to attack the bible and say David lied, Jonathan lied, Rahab lied, Jeal lied, etc. which again brings up Christian Civil Disobedience of which both Paul and Peter made mention of - or perhaps they too are lairs in what they had said and should be avoided.

Also there was no misuse of scripture in this regards, the JW church can say or not say if one leaves the faith, which is the case with any faith for that matter. At times, the person in question who wants to resign and says he or she wants to resign, the church leaders will make mention of so and so has left. At times, they let the people know several gatherings later when information of said person is frozen in case they return. Excommunications however, are usually stated the following gathering.

That being said, as a Christian, you have to take into account Paul's action and the question of punishment for disobedience in terms of church purity and holiness. The Paul one may be easy, but the second one is deemed far complex by some, this is why Atheist will utter this question to a Christian to throw them off balance: How can you have free will if it's punishment for disobedience? It is one of those Christians met to throw a not so biblical strict Christian off and cause them, in this sense, to stumble.

No worries, John, but in the end, opinion does not override scripture and what is true, just remember that.

[Space Merchant]

44 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

That’s where we differ. I have been personally challenged by demonic entities, and I also know the subtle term for an agent. Being on the WRONG PATH! Does not excuse, make, to be Satan’s puppet or chew toy!

 

But it’s good you see the upside in people, even though the deception is very obvious! That’s the difference between what you are referring to Satan worshippers, cults versus being used by Satan. It's not that hard to see through people. Especially those calling themselves Christian.

 

Same, but there is a group in particular that cannot be challenge, reasoned with or given the gospel to because it is a high risk of death and or risk of being killed, and far too great for even the Jehovah's Witnesses (for any JW, any faith for that matter, of those areas speak of what this vile group is and warn people on being careful) - for people can and will be victim to such. The influence and or power is deemed literal and real, especially in parts of Africa, and areas in the Caribbean like Cuba, Haiti, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc, possibly surpassing even that of Satanist in the US. In addition to that, I remember speaking to a church youth group who had quite the frightening night in one area, and they deem themselves very lucky to be alive, but still haunted of what they had witnessed, for as they put it, on one side there is God and all that is good, and on the other side of the spectrum there is evil and darkness, which just happens to be literal for them that night.

Other groups (they are basically connected to each other by companies, banks and families, etc), slightly differ from the one mentioned above because literal outlandish things they cannot do, however, these groups and entities of Babylon the Great literally believe that if they please demons, they will be rewarded, if they please Satan the Devil, they will be given power and control, this includes child sacrifice, in the realm of Child Abuse that even Law and authorities will not attack so often because they play a role in this too even protect such persons and left the children for dead, there was a video in this regard but it was taken down about a year ago, for they played their cards by using companies and powerful men, and have spread into the inhabitants across the globe, which to some seem like crazy talk, but it is the reality.

That being said, Political Powers coupled with religious Evangelicals that support them (example, their support in Kurds who in turn handed Christians over to Terrorists) are real agents that are a threat to the good Christian people. But people tend to not pay attention to this stuff like I have and a few handful of others, an example would be with what just took place recently with the US and Saudi Arabia - which is indeed fact and true of the information that is present.

It is one of the reasons Witness was in error in his past post about CTR and or lacking understanding of what is true and what is false, for these groups today target JWs still, and other Christians outside of the mainstream and not be noticed at all. With that in mind, I advise people to be careful, for a blind person can easily be in subjection to what is unknown.

For these guys can't be be recognized at all by anyone unless you put two and two together with what is true.

Scary to those who are new to these things, vigilant is the one who is aware of what it is and what is to take place.

[JOHN BUTLER]

Enough, this isn't about winning battles is it. People trying to show how 'intelligent' they are, or how knowledgeable they are. 

It will do me more harm than good trying to converse with you all. You all have your point of view and I have mine.

My concerns are not what 'men' think of JW Org, but what God thinks of it. I was hoping things would move forward more quickly but it seems I must have patience.  In probably 3 more months things will become more plain for everyone to see. And by the end of the year hopefully God will have sorted the Org out, if indeed He intend to use it at all. 

When i joined the Org i had just been 'released' from a Children's Home where i had suffered sexual, physical and emotional abuse. As a complete contrast the congregation I joined was so full of peace and what i thought was love. That is why i accepted it so easily. I was naive and looking for security in a wicked world... Now having grown up and with a wider outlook  I want to ask as many questions as fill my mind. And having spent time doing my own research I've found many things that I'm not happy with. 

So i will continue to pray to God daily, and to continue to search and research. And of course to continue to read God's word. 

I really would like to give warning of the massive storm i see coming and the danger it may cause to brothers and sisters, but no one will talk to me, so there is nothing i can do. i do ask my wife to warn others that danger may be close by, but she refuses to do so. So I'm quite helpless in the matter. If violence happens because of the knowledge that people gain then so be it. I could not talk of it when i was a brother, and now no one will listen. 

I will probably stay 'on the outside' for the rest of this year. Things will happen for the Org, and things will happen for me. i left in January, I'll see what i know and feel next January.