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CHILD SEX ABUSE INVESTIGATORS MAY PROBE THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES


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13 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And for anyone else reading this, but not for Tom tom as he has decided in his own mind that I am wicked, but for those of you with open minds I tell you this. I left the JW Org because my conscience would not allow me to stay in it, due to my findings about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org... I am not anti JW Org, I am not anti religion, i am not a part of any protest group nor part of any anti religious group of any sort. I am an individual with my own mind and my own thoughts. I am looking for the truth from God, not from men.

I believed we talked on this before in one of your other posts and I understand your position after reading various comments from you, but child abuse among Jehovah's Witnesses is happening in several countries, I wouldn't say worldwide among them though, mostly in the European Countries rarely does it happen in countries and even if it did it is very very low, examples being Asian countries such as South Korea and or Japan due to the filial piety and child laws, the Congo and or parts of Africa, for it is known fact that African Christians tend not to do such stuff, especially if they are devoted to a Christian faith and profess it, Middle Eastern and or Syranic JWs, as well as those living in Tehran, Yemen, pretty much most of the Arabian Emirates of where they can be found, and they tend not to do anything regarding child abuse, however, Christians are subjected to their opponent's attacks, even in some cases children of a Christian family end up getting kidnapped and auction off as a bride and or sex slave and is subjected to vile forms of abuse known to man. Some JWs, by law can be targeted to be killed and or beheaded in some cases, therefore, not a whole lot of preaching can be done in a malevolent Islamic community.

The reality is the child abuse epidemic that also affected the Jehovah's Witnesses is more centered in areas like the UK, Australia, and the US, for those, and evidently it is a problem, and child abuse when combined with all groups and institutions is a globe problem, of which some people are ironically in denial of.

I do not like to use race in this, but what is said is true regarding pedophilia and child abuse.

Other then that, it won't stop a person from joining them or any faith. A pastor lured a child with a bible into a classroom, violating a child, even though the abuser was dealt with, it didn't stop people from becoming Christians or did anyone went out of a church in droves when a pastor shoots a man dead, who was only speaking aloud for he had been wronged, in the chest inside a crowded church, the same can be said about Jews, Muslims, etc.

Just keep in your mind that eventually when Jesus returns this will change. God by means of his chosen Christ, of whom he has given authority, will judge those who do wrong, and them alone will be punished. No man, woman or child, be it outside or in the womb, is perfect- all is imperfect. The Bible teaches this, be it in a religion or not, but profess to scripture, you have to respect what is written and adhere by it, just do not get carried away with it because a small shift can change a man even though if he thinks he is in the right and or doing good.

As for Tom, it is safe to say he reacted the way he did because of the response gets, especially in regards to the discussion between the both of you. For this is a discussion of not doctrine, belief and or faith, it is about an issue in regards to a problem this world faces, for we are of God, it would be wise to dose down conflict about an issue than to entice it, I need not have to bring a bible verse or two for such things for it should be evident. In the end, both of you, all of us are against child abuse, just to make sure this is clear for everyone.

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Let's not do whataboutism. The organization has frequently used the pedophile cover ups in the catholic church and secular institutions to support their moral superiority and divine backing. So should

@Space Merchant People outside the faith know only because victims have now made it known, and hence the investigations Earthwide. But the names of the pedophiles and their locations are not known, no

John, if I ever was to find myself on the outside looking in due to what I thought was primarily 'politics', I would continue to come to meetings, and take in the instruction that is to found nowhere

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15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The enemies in Russia wanted to snuff us out quietly. The Governing Body did not permit that to happen. They made sure, if it was to be done, it would be done with huge publicity. It is like Paul saying  "This thing has not been done in a corner," and on that account confidently addressing honest hearted ones: "I know you believe."

The Russia ban issue is far deeper and more complex than one realizes, I brought this up before here, especially to Robert in one of the threads. What is a key element in all this is the recent election of Vladimir Putin, which was expected by some, as well as those who didn't like how Russia was going down a Soviet Era like path. At this point for Jehovah's Witnesses, it will not end well for them there, JW opponents think of the ban as a victory, but what they didn't realize is what went down 2014 and onward regarding the Kremlin, the Duma, and the Russian Church, and how, hellish things are going to get for the Russian people - which has already spawn conspiracy.

Just know that regarding the ban of JWs, other parities were also involved, an example would be France, specifically NGOs of France in combination with Alexander Dvorkin, Patriarch Cyrill, and a number of other key players among the Kremlin and the Duma, in addition to how the JWs have proven to be an inconvenience to the Kremlin weeks prior to the election.

Speaking about Child Abuse, it is also ironically as to how no one speaks of the child abuse done to JW children in Russia by opponents, but apparently no one bats an eye about it.

That being said, this is a reminder for me to delve back into the Russian part of media again, for now since Putin has been re-elected, there is bound to be new information.

 

Other then that, it is unlikely you would hear anyone talking about JW children being abused by people outside of their faith or how now they'll be treated, which is being talked about by Orthodoxy and Non-Orthodoxy Christians in Russia who didn't like what was done to the JWs.

In short, it will not be a good time for anyone who is not on the side of the Kremlin, the RoC and the Duma. I know JWs do not do politics, but these leaders will be somewhat of a obstacle for them in Russia - perhaps prove more of a threat to Americans also. If you can be jailed and marked as an extremist for making a joke, being a poet or playing Pokemon, it will only continue to get far worse from that, and it will get bad for the JWs. But seeing they pushed through the Soviet days, endurance is key for them, and surprisingly the hundreds of protesters who were taken down by the Kremlin notice who the JWs are and how they endured in those days.

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Could you elucidate on these statements?

28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

in addition to how the JWs have proven to be an inconvenience to the Kremlin weeks prior to the election.

and 

29 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

surprisingly the hundreds of protesters who were taken down by the Kremlin notice who the JWs are and how they endured in those days.

thx.

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Could you elucidate on these statements?

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That Jehovah's Witnesses do not vote, take sides in the realm of politics and will not submit to taking part in Russia's events of glorifying violence such as the Victory Day Parades held by Russia every year, for the Kremlin considers Jehovah's Witnesses as a threat the reasons why the French NGOs and Alexander along with the Russian Church all pitched in to get them banned by twisting that Yarovaya Law, therefore over the years, Russia controlled media will slander and attack JWs every chance they get. Ironically, the ban took place after both the Pope Francis visit and Cyrill's trip to Antarctica to, as he puts it, to receive "Spiritual Power", then came the mass protesting, the ban on JWs, the arrest of well over thousands of people, The Alexei Navanly Troop and the extremist finger pointing as well as the bible itself will make you a target and subjected to arrest should Russia police and or FSB take action against you. JW kids have been abused by other children, verbally, as well as professors in school because of their faith and the fact that they do not partake in political events in Russia or join the army, which explains the situation in Russian controls Crimea. JWs and suppose opponents of the Kremlin are being watched everyday, even stalked regardless of the age group, even if a crime is done to them and or a child is abuse by someone from the outside, the FSB will not really do much, by chance Russian police will react when information of violent abuse is reported, but nothing would be done.

The website that they track people with is using a device called FindFace which can literally find anyone within the Russian social media space, for the software itself makes Edward Snowden blush. such a thing can easily be abuse and has been used by creepy people on the internet who tend to use the power of that software to located people, specifically track down women. The FSB has taken hold of this software and used it again, exploited it to benefit themselves and the Kremlin, and had used it to hunt down protesters, Navanly Heroes, but, they had a separate site that track people of religious affiliations, specifically those outside of the Russian Orthodox Church such, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, the Non-Orthodoxy, Hindis, in addition to tracking down Homosexuals, for if anyone caught by the FSB, especially in Chechnya, it will not end well for the person.

I manage to find one of the sites, this was was originally .ru, but they changed it and replaced it with the .com version, for the .ru ones can't be found anymore because it is either blocked or the address had been changed, but this is the idea of how they track people, posting their information to the public, and prior to the JW ban, the people listed on that site had been, well on the .ru versions, hunted down and dealt with.

http://jesuismaidan.com (the original .ru one does not exist anymore so the link is just but an example of its former self, the one that targets religion and homosexuals have had their address changed)

Of course a good idea made by very smart and intellegent minds, there will be those who will take said idea and turn it into a weapon:

 

Now in regards to not taking part in political and military service, youth of the JW faith are normally attacked verbally by peers and professors of a school, in addition to such increasing against them when it came to the events in Russia known as Victory Day Parades, as some called it, a day of glorifying violence and or military might – nationalism, as well:

The usual portrayal of JWs in Russia, other videos have been removed and or turned private while the ????? and ?????? 24 to name a few are several of Russian Kremlin controlled media outlets, but this is but an example of what I speak of in regards of slandering someone's faith – other than that the Duma has also made hundreds of new laws prior to the ban that blocks broadcasting of real news information, reasons why some people in Russia trust and are lucky to find the RFERL for they are independent media: 

 

Mixing of actual footage and false footage of JWs in Russia, done so by the hands of the Russian mainstream media: 

 

 

But yeah this is RFERL, among the many independents who actually speak truth on what is going on in Russia, despite parts of them being blocked by the Duma laws for some time now: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-election-violations/29109634.html

 

But yeah, other then that, nearly anyone prior to the decision on the JWs were subjected to arrest and or branded as enticing hate and or extremism - sadly all part of the plan just so the Kremlin can continue to control and take power, Navalny being made a fool of despite him exposing the Kremlin and at this rate he will end up like Nemstov.

accused of extremism and being arrested applies to anyone, even children to be taken away for hours, days, perhaps months (could not find the original, again half these things are removed even the news articles):

 

For if Russia can get away with that, due to the child abuse situation in all faiths including JWs, others can do the same and get away with it sadly, an obvious instance would be comparing child abuse in the JW faith to the far dark and more sinister UK underground of child abuse ran by the people with big pockets in the United Kingdom.

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On 3/18/2018 at 8:27 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

How did there come to be a "pedophile list" in the first place? It is a consequence of internal church disciple so as to present to God a clean people that the Bible says he demands. EVERYONE should have done this and NOBODY did

Good point

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3 hours ago, Anna said:

Good point

Not only is it a good point, but I am beginning to be frustrated that it is not made more often, and I don't mean by people here. People of my age saw it all unfold, but people younger than me did not. When those who hate the Witness organization catch the ear of the inexperienced (or gullible) ones, they get some of them believing that the very purpose of the list is to lovingly nurture pedophiles and protect them from the elements so that they may grow strong. Is @JOHN BUTLER one of those so misled? Complicating matters is that he is a victim of child abuse himself  (and is quite brave to be so forthcoming) and if one is a victim of anything traumatic, it leaves a gut response that often overpowers any other consideration. 

John thinks I have been rough with him, and if I have, I will apologize in a heartbeat. It is nothing personal. Personally, perhaps I would like him a great deal. But he has chosen to be the face of a position that he represents in a very pugnacious manner. Sometimes faces are pounded in that way. It happens to me, too. It is nothing personal with him.

Imagine! Insisting as he has that the present GB members be disfellowshipped! And what bad thing did they do? At most, they have mis-stepped in a rescue mission where they saved more people than anyone else - what with a prevention record 10 times that of others.

Still, they could have pointed this out. You know, I have been in this forum too long. Whereas there are many here who will tell them what to do at the drop of a pin, I have scrupulously not gone there, as it is not my place and I do not have the lines of feedback that they do. I am beginning to reassess that wise approach in favor of shooting my mouth off, but not in a way that is most commonly done. 

In the abstract, these allegations of child sexual abuse sound bad - really bad - and so there are loyal ones who get antsy and start to urge that the GB grovel before the greater world (whose prevention accomplishments they far outstrip) and beg for forgiveness. My 'advise' would be to keep doing what they are doing, but "do it more fully." Continue with the headship and spiritual feeding program that they now arrange, which is absolutely stellar, and supplement it with what loyal ones need to know in order to push back at the maligners. No Witness should be in any doubt what was the purpose for any 'list' nor should they be in any doubt that it was in the main successful, with a success rate 10-fold,  though it produced as a byproduct a few glitches in their reporting methods vs those of the less-successful world that opposers are seizing upon and trying to make the main event. They should not be able to do this, but they are in many instances.

Educate ones who need or want to know on the proactive purposes of any 'lists.' Educate them on the ten-fold success rate in prevention. Educate them on how anyone who was serious about keeping God's standards should have tracked their actual abuse rate so as to correct it, and nobody else did. They were all negligent. These are all things that the present organization could do, and in my opinion, they should. Allowing opposers to drive perception on this issue results in persons insensed that the Witness organization is not perfect!

Moreover (and this is simply floating an idea) what if those who had suffered abuse among the Witnesses were offered the same sort of support that hospital patients are with the hospital visitation services or even the HLCs? Maybe by extending their role into 'trauma teams' that help with any sort of trauma that our people get hit with. Populated with mature brothers and sisters of excellent listening skills, ones who have the reputation of empathy and who are not quickly put off by 'wild talk.' Imagine, if the organization that already has 90% less abuse victims due to its application of Bible principles took this additional proactive measure to assist 'carrying the burdens' of the victims it does have within its ranks. @JOHN BUTLER is not all wet in saying abuse victims can use added help. Having said that, there are many sorts of traumas wherein people can use help. It will be for someone else to figure what is a 'load' that all Christians must carry, and what is a 'burden' that each of us needs help with, and it is not always necessary or advisable to 'formalize' a basic Christian requirement, in this case, helping each other. Witness how people carry on here about formalizing the preaching work with 'goals' and 'pioneers.'

It is just floating an idea to be batted around by people with better input and in better position if they choose to. I can see potential challenges, not so much in its intent, but in its implementation. But if it helped some to heal and to not abandon spiritual pursuits while they were doing so, there might be a place for something along those lines. In various ways we come to the assistance of fellow Christians who are 'clobbered' such as with natural disaster relief teams. Is this another one?

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@Anna Well as far as I can tell the Governing Body were getting worried in 1997 about the amount of Child Abuse within the USA part of the JW Org. So the Governing Body sent out letters to all the Elders of congregations in the USA. One such letter instructed the Elders to send all reports / accusations about Child Abuse past and present, to Brooklyn HQ. It was to be an ongoing instruction right up to this day. Hence from 1997 to 2017 = 20 years worth of documents concerning Child Abuse within the JW Org USA.

Now the point is, why did the GB want all this info ? Was it as Tom says, to try to keep the Org clean, or, was it to be able to hide all the info in one place ? 

The next question is, Why didn't the Governing Body follow the instruction from God as written in Romans 13 v 1 through 7. That scripture starts off

13 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.  Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.

The California court, which surely represents the government, demanded the documents that the JW Org / GB had concerning Child Abuse within the JW Org USA. By opposing the court the Governing Body were in fact opposing God. The scripture proves that. 

Now here is a bit of interesting information which appears to be true, but take it as you will.  

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2428460-theocratic-warfare-lg.html

May 1st, 1957. Watchtower.   Use Theocratic War Strategy 

"So in times of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect  the enemy by hiding the truth". This article also leads people into the way of thinking that telling lies is OK if you are doing it to protect the Organisation. 

And in my opinion that is what the GB think, and also practice today. 

 

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@TrueTomHarley A couple of points just to start with Tom. Firstly I've noticed that you cannot make a comment without adding my name to it in a twisted way. Secondly, you 'saw it all unfold' so I presume you knew all about the Child Abuse many years ago, which brings me to the point I've mentioned above about the GB being worried about it in 1997. So have you know n for 20 years Tom ? and done nothing about it... 

As for the way you've treated me. Do you really think it bothers me ? I'll tell you, I do not care if people on here hate me or love me. I am making things known. Just like someone in the ministry. And some will believe and others will scoff. 

Once again you misquote, I 'suggested' the GB are disfellowshipped for the sake of the JW Org. And what have they done wrong, you asked. Well I've noted at least one thing in my above comment. And it seems that the GB form 1957 have said it's OK for them to tell lies or misplace the truth. 

And first of all you have no idea how many people 'they have saved'. For one reason, the Elders decide what is important enough to carry forward and what isn't. So it is possible that many accusations have been 'lost' / hidden, deliberately destroyed. We will never know. That is one reason it's impossible to compare the Org with any other. Because you only have the GB's word as to the true quantity. This is where we will differ of course. You think they are the 'faithful and discreet slave', I think they have proved themselves no to be so. 

And you go back to your comparisons again, and i tell you that God is not impressed with any comparisons. Are you then trying to impress people? But surely it is more important to serve God. I will repeat for those that missed it before. GOD WANTS A CLEAN ORGANISATION. HE DOES NOT WANT ONE THAT IS ONLY SLIGHTLY BETTER THAN THE WORLD. 

Oh you do love your stupid percentage thing. It's so funny. Nearly every paragraph you use it. Back to my example then, if you want to keep repeating yourself then why shouldn't I.

The Nation of Israel went astray and started killing its own children. This is the truth. It burnt the children in the fire as offerings to false gods. So when God questioned them, did they say, "But God we didn't kill and burn as many children as the other nations did. We had a much lower percentage ". Now you see how stupid your percentages are. They have no relevance. 

And now i note that you are slyly introducing the idea that Child Abuse is part of the 'load' a Christian has to carry. Well I don't think it is.

And you are suggesting some sort of support maybe ? Um, before you can offer support to anyone you need to find them first. Wow, this is where we started i think. The only way to find the victims is to investigate the JW org. Why? Because it isn't until there is an investigation that people find it safe enough to come forward. Having been sexually abused, then thrown out of the Org for complaining about it, they are frightened to come forward alone, and they certainly don't get any support when the are shunned.

So it seems Tom may be backtracking. It seems he may see the need for these investigations Earthwide, to help the victims and to try to prevent further victims by changing policy, such as the two witness rule, so that victims can be heard. And we never know, Tom may one day even agree to the victims being able to go to the police without being shunned or disfellowshipped.

Now Tom, how about letting the brothers and sisters know what's happening so that they can be warned about any 'attack' on them whether verbally or physically whilst they are on the ministry or at the Hall.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well as far as I can tell the Governing Body were getting worried in 1997 about the amount of Child Abuse within the USA part of the JW Org. So the Governing Body sent out letters to all the Elders of congregations in the USA. One such letter instructed the Elders to send all reports / accusations about Child Abuse past and present, to Brooklyn HQ. It was to be an ongoing instruction right up to this day. Hence from 1997 to 2017 = 20 years worth of documents concerning Child Abuse within the JW Org USA.

Now the point is, why did the GB want all this info ? Was it as Tom says, to try to keep the Org clean, or, was it to be able to hide all the info in one place ? 

In the 1990s Child Abuse had been on the rise in the US with most abusers tend to continue the trend of getting away with their crimes and it had increased within the realm of religion thus internal investigation by such groups. Data is usually collected if need be so it is kept in file, in some situations for some people, little information is all that is needed to be kept on file if necessary, others usually hold on to information for a temporary amount of time based on their system, however, if or if not such information exist and or had ceased,the victim of the abuse can and will have their say on the matter - as living proof to speak on what abuse they had suffered.

But it is no surprise anyone would be startled if it did happen to them, for the total number of cases of child abuse in the U.S. from 1990 to 2010 was surged to a ridiculous amount, the only difference from then and now is that we have better systems and networks so information can be brought forth quite easily, but anything before the 1990s tend to be somewhat of a stretch for people tend to be more reliant on the word of the victim should the abuser's location and or status be unknown and or if said abuse had perish -  died.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/203816/number-of-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us/

The other link is based on race, I mentioned race card before and by the majority in today's world, this has been proven to be true and fact:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/418475/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity/

Other: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK201120/

Perhaps as all religious heads go, they gather the information big and or small, or whatever they can get from the victim on the matter either to be used to root out abuse, to use said information to see how they can determine the signs of abuse and teach if this or that happens, what to do, and the like. In my case, all Unitarian denominations are informed to send any known information to either the heads of the church of church leaders of the faith, it is no different from others.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The next question is, Why didn't the Governing Body follow the instruction from God as written in Romans 13 v 1 through 7. That scripture starts off

I believe I mention this regarding Paul, and that God's law in the bible cannot be broken and or changed. Christians will, no matter the denominations and or faith, will be subjected to Civil Disobedience just as Paul was, and regarding what Peter had said - only should the law of the land conflict with worship of God, the Bible, Bible Principles, etc., hence the title of Romans 13Submission to Governing Authorities. It is 100% true all Christians must obey the law, but should the law try to hinder anything spiritual, you will most likely see a reaction.

Given that it was Paul who wrote the Epistles to the Romans, one can easily see what anything pertaining to government and or authorities points to with what took place in Paul's life and what Peter wrote, which mirrors that of what was done in the Hebrew Old Testament.

All in all, if the JWs technically submitted a Nazarite Vow in terms of following scripture, such a thing cannot be broken, or any Christians who is on the same boat.

As for Romans 13:1-7 is alludes to the following: Subjection to the authorities (1-7) paying of taxes (6, 7).

So it is unlikely they are ignoring scripture, if the group is deemed Bible Strict by the majority.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now here is a bit of interesting information which appears to be true, but take it as you will.  

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2428460-theocratic-warfare-lg.html

May 1st, 1957. Watchtower.   Use Theocratic War Strategy 

Spiritual Warfare (the same thing as what the JWs call it, Theocratic Warfare/Strategy). It is a practice that is used by Evangelizing Christians regarding the preaching and teaching of the gospel, especially if met with opposition that will attempt to halt and or cease any following of Jesus' examples of teaching about God.

As defined (quote): Spiritual warfare is the Christian concept of fighting against the work of preternatural evil forces. It is based on the biblical verification and observance of evil spirits, or demons, which intervene in human affairs in various ways, for their own agendas. Various Christian groups have adopted practices to repel such forces, as based on their doctrine of Christian demonology. Prayer is a common form of spiritual warfare among Christians. Other practices may include exorcism, the laying on of hands, fasting, and anointing with oil.

Read here to understand about what it truly is: https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/spiritual-warfare-lesson-1-understanding-the-battle-11554631.html

Other examples: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1211-spiritual-warfare-is-real-difficult-and-dangerous

Other then that, only few denominations outside of mainstream Christianity will go on this route should their faith be subjected to the laws of the land trying to alter God's Laws. That 1957 Watchtower you posted is no different from tactics and strategies used by Christians over the decades when met with some form of Bible breaking persecution, some who end up in prison and or is killed by those who are not of God.

That the practice of which the Jehovah's Witnesses have done for years, Theocratic War Strategy, basically Spiritual Warfare, is that (quote): Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are engaged in a "spiritual, theocratic warfare" against false teachings and wicked spirit forces they say try to impede them in their preaching work. Where their religious beliefs have been in conflict with national laws or other authorities—particularly in countries where their work is banned—they have advocated the use of "theocratic war strategy" to protect their interests, by hiding the truth from God's "enemies",being evasive, or withholding truthful or incriminating information.The Watchtower told Witnesses: "It is proper to cover over our arrangements for the work that God commands us to do. If the wolfish foes draw wrong conclusions from our maneuvers to outwit them, no harm has been done to them by the harmless sheep, innocent in their motives as doves."

Plus it is no different in the case of several examples in the bible, one that is known by everyone, Ra'hab, a prostitute in Jericho who had assisted 2 spies that were sent by Joshua, the Son of Nun, to spy out the city. We all know how they passage played our and what Ra'hab's view of God the Father is, which was a positive on, and she hid the men and belittled the guards who were sent by the King to seek out the Israelite men after receiving word of them, and among the people who were interrogated was Ra'hab.

In Ephesians 6:13–18, the spiritual armor God gives us is spoken of here. Christians are to stand firm with the belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the gospel of peace, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, the sword of the Spirit, and by praying in the Spirit.

These pieces of spiritual armor represent in spiritual warfare is to know the truth, believe the truth, and speak the truth as well as defend it and prevent anyone from preventing you of this truth. We are to take in the fact that we are declared righteous because of Christ’s sacrifice for us. We are to proclaim the gospel no matter how much resistance we face from opponents of the faith, as well as the la of the land that attempts to break scripture and or worship of God - resulting in Civil Disobedience.

We are not to waver in our faith, we are to keep trusting God’s promises no matter how strongly we are attacked, how hard we are hit, be it if injured and or killed, nothing or no one would stop a Christian from professing their faith, even if it is by the hands of authorities. Our ultimate defense is the assurance we have of our salvation, an assurance that no spiritual force and or men of the world can take away. Our offensive weapon is the Word of God (as some call it, the Word of God is our Excalibur Sword) not our own opinions and feelings. And we are to pray in the power and will of the Holy Spirit.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

"So in times of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect  the enemy by hiding the truth". This article also leads people into the way of thinking that telling lies is OK if you are doing it to protect the Organisation. 

And in my opinion that is what the GB think, and also practice today. 

It didn't stop Christians today, it didn't stop Christians in the past, and it didn't stop those who believed in the one true God of Israel who has not changed and condemns the change of his Spoken Word or break anything pertaining of what his Son had done on earth.

But regarding that article, should, taking an example of that woman, should she have given herself up, it will not have ended well for her.

The key to successful spiritual warfare is finding the biblical balance and being in harmony with what is written in scripture. Paul instructs Christians to wage war against the sin in themselves (Romans 6 - Dead to Sin, Alive to God, Slaves to Righteousness) and warns us to oppose the schemes of the devil (Ephesians 6:10–18).

That being said, the account and or passage of Ra'hab can be found in Joshua 2:1-24, 6:1, 22-25, and Hebrews 11:31(other instances of spying found at Judges 1:22-26, 18:1-10, 14, 17, and 1 Samuel 26:4).

All in all, Ra'hab was declared righteous and is justified by Works which was indeed spiritual warfare in regards of defending the Israelite men from being captured and possibly execution by means of the King of Jericho and Ra'hab and her household would have also been killed if she had not done what she did.

other instances of Spiritual Warfare, for example, Jael, Deborah, Michal to name a few, David to Jonathan also.

In short, all Christians, specifically all outside of the mainstream Christianity, who are adhering to the Great Commission subject themselves to Spiritual Warfare, and since Jehovah's Witnesses are still Restorationist, it applies to them also regarding Spiritual Warfare and will continue for them until Jesus returns, as to anyone who is subjected to Spiritual Warfare and takes it seriously.

 

Christian Civil Disobedience regarding the Laws of the Land:

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We believe the Scripture teaches that we are to submit to government even if that government does not function entirely (or even primarily) by biblical principles (Romans 13:1-7). That principle is explicit in Peter's message to servants (1 Peter 2:18-19), which directly follows his more general comments regarding government (1 Peter 2:13-17). And that epistle teaches the same thing over and over again in varied ways: Submit even if you suffer, because in doing so you identify with Christ and are blessed (cf. 1 Peter 2:21-243:1-24:12-145:9-10).

There are times when we must obey God rather than men, but we believe that we should disobey the authorities only if they command us to do something directly against God's law (e.g. Acts 5:29 and its surrounding context).

That is a fine distinction, but it is precisely where the issue lies. If we say that Christians are only required to obey their government when it is functioning by scriptural principles, we then nullify the teaching of Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17 in just about any age of history-especially the time during which those passages were written! The Roman government was as corrupt and godless as any in history, and yet Paul and Peter told Christians to "live in subjection," "submit to every ordinance," and "honor the king."

So we believe that civil disobedience is justified only when government compels us to sin, or when there is no legal recourse for fighting injustice. The reason we draw the line there is simply because all the scriptural examples of civil disobedience fall squarely into those two situations. Any other kind of activism has no precedent in the Word of God and violates the spirit of Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2.

If you look this up regarding Christians and Law, you will see nearly the same thing for no Christian will cherry pick and break Religious Law in favor of Man's Law, there is always and will be a line that is drawn.

The only option you have is to work with the rules the group is following, you can't force them or entice them to change or alter what is written, regarding child abuse, it applies also and it makes sense to work with what they know and work with what they follow in terms of rules and regulations backed by scripture and religious procedures in all faiths that allows internal investigation to begin with.

The very reason stuff like this is known will not stop someone from joining the Jehovah's Witnesses or any group for that matter, people will continue to convert to JWs, people will continue to convert to Islam,people will continue to convert to Judaism, people will continue to convert to Catholicism, etc. In the end God knows who his people are be in in the organization or not, and he will not tolerate the actions of bad people or those contributing to infighting and anything such as conspiracy against his own Word.

And again, you can be a JW or not, there is a strict reason and a biblical one as to why some Christians do not talk of JWs as such and maintain neutrality, just as I am doing and thousands of others.

An example I will give, is that even Muslims know who JWs are, even though they do not agree with them on some Jesus' death and resurrection, and they tend to not mess around with JWs at all, instead, Muslims are always attacking Trinitarian doctrine in the UK's Speaker's Corner, which was talked about in the  Christian world of UK and the US, as the false doctrine being exposed by another faction of believers being the Muslims an instance would be on how on numerous occasions an anti-jw, anti-muslim, anti-unitarian, kjv-onlyist that goes by the name Bob The Builder is often defeated by such persons and has made a channel of his own to bash everyone and everything at Hyde Park.

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For crying out loud, John, I was extending an olive branch. it is not the first time I have done it. Each time you hurl it back in my face.

I will just pick one item from you previous post:

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So it is possible that many accusations have been 'lost' / hidden, deliberately destroyed. We will never know. 

This is so petulantly infantile that it is hard to countenance. Haul in the Presbyterians as well. Do they have 1 abuser per thousand? Or 999?

"We will never know."

If we cannot trust the Witness records, neither can we trust the Presbyterian records. You just don't like the former. It is no more complicated then that.

However, with Presbyterian records, there is added reason not to trust them. They don't have any! What - they would have us believe that no Presbyterian has ever molested a child? Haul them all in here! Put the screws to them!

"Raise your eyes to the heavens and count the stars. They are all populated by perverts. Pray that Elon Musk find success in his mission so that we can go up there and punish the residents among them if we find any are Jehovah's Witnesses.."

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Is @JOHN BUTLER one of those so misled?  I was extending an olive branch. Really. You have a funny way of doing it. Very slyly suggesting that I'm 'misled'. 

Reminds me of the Serpent talking to E ve  "So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” "

It stood out a mile in my eyes, but i did think it was kind of funny. However I'm also thinking that you and SM are being used very well by the devil on here , so i will not bother with you any more... I will look at other topics here and hope you are not on them. :) 

I've told you before, I'm only interested in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, and, the Watchtower Society. Why ? Because I was part of them and would be again if they get 'sorted out' by God through Jesus Christ..So you and SM carry on your stupid percentage thing and comparison thing, which only serves the devil's purposes.

There are reports from an ex-elder (in Wales i believe) that saw a letter to the Elders, telling them to destroy documents concerning Child Abuse. A. I don't know why he is an ex-elder. B. I don't know if its true or not. But it could well be true if what I've mentioned above and what SM has said about 'spiritual warfare' / telling lies / destroying evidence. 

I suppose you will go on believing that the GB are the 'faithful slave' and i will go on believing that they are not.

i am disappointed in brothers in my ex-congregation for not keeping contact with me. But that just shows how frightened the brothers are of being shunned or disfellowshipped themselves. Dictatorship by the GB and the Elders. Frightened brothers and sisters. Wow how to run an organisation of love and service to God.... I don't think so.

As for sticking completely to scripture. I'll leave you with this. Jesus said at Matthew 12 v9 onward.

 After departing from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10  and look! there was a man with a withered hand! So they asked him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him.11  He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out?m12  How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath.” 

There are times when it is right to break the rules. 

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16 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Is @JOHN BUTLER one of those so misled?  I was extending an olive branch. Really. You have a funny way of doing it. Very slyly suggesting that I'm 'misled'. 

 

What - are you nuts? You take offense that I suggest you were misled? Clearly you say the same of me. In fact for the most part, you go well beyond misled. You paint me as a liar.

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