CHILD SEX ABUSE INVESTIGATORS MAY PROBE THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley I'll go further and repeat, i think you are a servant of the devil. Protecting pedophiles within the JW org.  Hating anyone that dares to question the GB. Twisting every comment made by genuine people on here. Good bye Tom. 

[Space Merchant]

29 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley I'll go further and repeat, i think you are a servant of the devil. Protecting pedophiles within the JW org.  Hating anyone that dares to question the GB. Twisting every comment made by genuine people on here. Good bye Tom. 

If someone posts something that is true it does not automatically or allude to him or her being a servant of the Devil - claims and assumptions of someone results in 11 verses in this regard that targets the accuser of the accused, for if you respect God's word you have to be careful on that.

No one is questioning anyone for if the JWs have a set of rules and religious laws that they follow, there is a how and why as to they adhere to such which nearly equals to Nazareth Vow and breaking of such when a conclusion has not been met to free one of this vow, disqualifies them of God's favor, a position a JW or any Christian do not want to be in. We know Paul is no lair and what he affirms is true and fact, therefore it has to be respected at all times.

That being said, it has already been spoken about child abuse happening to everyone, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, to say they hide pedophiles when people outside of the faith know of what is going on is a bit misleading, so to speak, not to mention people are indeed paying attention to the highs and lows that changes over time regarding child abuse, violence and the like.

As for those verses, I will not post them here for they are that impactful when it comes to accusing someone of something when he or she speaks truth - God's word is important and adhering to it at all cost should be of high importance to you.

All in all, the issue of child abuse, the statistics, the spread of child abuse, the actions of abusers, etc. is and will always be something that people will care about because the youth is affected and as a Christian, all of us know God's sees a person's heart.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley  I'll go further and repeat, i think you are a servant of the devil

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Space Merchant People outside the faith know only because victims have now made it known, and hence the investigations Earthwide. But the names of the pedophiles and their locations are not known, not even to the brothers and sisters that have children in the congregations. Hence i say prdophiles are being protected and hidden. And brothers and sisters that serve the Org do not look into these things, so they do not know. Nor do they know of the danger they may face on the ministry or at the hall, because the Elders do not make any of this known. If i had spoken about it in the Kingdom Hall when I was a brother,  I would have been disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'... This is how they keep things quiet, because brothers and sisters are frightened to talk about anything...  You have to be there in person to fully understand how frightened the congregation members are of the Elders. There are so many things that you just cannot talk about. And the meetings are fully controlled. the Watchtower Study is controlled, so that brothers and sisters only answer the question put in the paragraphs. And no one is allowed to ask question, it's just parrot fashion, read a paragraph then give correct answers. Then move on, next paragraph.... 

Jesus himself was very blunt and to the point when he noted those that were trying to twist things and use lies and false ideas. Sometimes there is no other way, you just have to tell someone that you can see 'where they are coming from'. 

JW's Governing Body make up the rules and change them when it suits, by misusing scriptures. Elders in turn act like robotic servants of the Governing Body. There is no love shown, no empathy. This has been made so clear by the victims of Child Abuse Earthwide and by people that have been shunned for no good reason. And now i fall into the latter catagory. Shunned by brothers and sisters, probably because they think i was disfellowshipped, as they don't tell people when they say ' John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. Members of the congregation have no idea if i was disfellowshipped or if I left of my own choice. Though i am very disappointed by those i told prior to leaving, that they too should shun me. But once again fear of man, fear of the elders, fear of 'getting into trouble' if they talk to me.. It's very sad.

Doing anything on the Sabbath was wrong according to the Mosaic Law and punishable, but Jesus said there were times when doing good would override that Law. But the JW Governing Body do not seem to recognise the principle behind that, hence they show no mercy or love.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

This is how they keep things quiet, because brothers and sisters are frightened to talk about anything...  You have to be there in person to fully understand how frightened the congregation members are of the Elders. There are so many things that you just cannot talk about. And the meetings are fully controlled. the Watchtower Study is controlled, so that brothers and sisters only answer the question put in the paragraphs. And no one is allowed to ask question, it's just parrot fashion, read a paragraph then give correct answers. Then move on, next paragraph.... 

John, I think you are in some danger of losing it. Take some time off. Seriously. I am not out to get you. I have just  pushed back at some of your charges.

You initially represented yourself as about to embark on a quest to find just what was the truth, or something to that effect - I forget the exact wording. The way you have conducted yourself here would indicate you were never in the slightest doubt of it. Go off on your quest if you are going to.

Sit silently in the Hall if it helps you in any way, but it sounds to me like you have absolutely writen that option off and I do not know how you can take umbridge at "so and so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Are you? Sounds like a good call, to me. 

Either make your peace with JWs are they are represented on move on. Don't stay here, at least not for now. You are working yourself into a lather.

 

[Vic Vomidog]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And no one is allowed to ask question, it's just parrot fashion, read a paragraph then give correct answers. Then move on, next paragraph.

that is just the way I like it, parrot fashion.

[Space Merchant]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

People outside the faith know only because victims have now made it known, and hence the investigations Earthwide. But the names of the pedophiles and their locations are not known, not even to the brothers and sisters that have children in the congregations. Hence i say prdophiles are being protected and hidden. And brothers and sisters that serve the Org do not look into these things, so they do not know. Nor do they know of the danger they may face on the ministry or at the hall, because the Elders do not make any of this known. If i had spoken about it in the Kingdom Hall when I was a brother,  I would have been disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'... This is how they keep things quiet, because brothers and sisters are frightened to talk about anything...  You have to be there in person to fully understand how frightened the congregation members are of the Elders. There are so many things that you just cannot talk about. And the meetings are fully controlled. the Watchtower Study is controlled, so that brothers and sisters only answer the question put in the paragraphs. And no one is allowed to ask question, it's just parrot fashion, read a paragraph then give correct answers. Then move on, next paragraph.... 

No, people outside the faith do know and will always know. Child Abuse isn't some mysterious thing that just happens to be a shock, a surprise that just happens to be taking place in religion, for this has been going on since the days of our 3rd to 4th century church fathers into the 14th and 15th century to now, and Child Abuse is going to continue until the conclusion of the end times and tribulations. And I already made mention of Child Abuse among the Jehovah's Witnesses as well as areas in the world where it does not occur and or rarely does happen within the faith, a few posts ago I said it and I will not repeat myself, in addition to that, Jehovah's Witness youth tend to be subjected to kidnapping and or beheading because of their faith and they'll always gun for the young ones as potential targets, but never has anyone speak of this, if they have it is rare, but Child Abuse tends to happen in the US, the UK and parts of the EU, little to no child abuse takes place in areas like South Korea and or Japan because of an ancient Asian Laws coupled with modern day laws and regulations, I can go on about the Middle East and or the Congo, etc, but it has already been said - for if the Child Abuse among them is indeed earthwide as you claim, the areas I mentioned before would have been affected also to a great deal and will be high, Child Abuse is all over the globe yes, but among groups and other institutions it tends to happen in a few places in the world and done so by specific persons be it a pedophile, a violent person or a trafficker and as I said, child can abuse another child too, which is indeed a real and sad thing. But even with that information, even JW opponents or those that talk ill of the faith attack non-JWs of the facts.

No, pedophiles are not being protected, they're only protected if said religious group is part of the underground world and affiliates themselves with people who can clean up traces, empty out the cookie jar if you will, even if it means taking out the victim and or witnesses for good (murder), which was the case in Lithuania's child abuse controversy that lead to several deaths and a suicide. Jehovah's Witnesses do look into Child Abuse issues for if they speak on the matter and put it in their articles then they'll know, perhaps not all of them, but those who are use to reading news online, and even if they speak their peace, they are attacked relentlessly, even non-JWs who know the laws of the land are also attacked, for JW opponents tend to keep everything one sided and will say pedophilia is hidden when an obvious simpleton can figure out Child Abuse is global and not subjected to a single group, and no one will side with those that want to "kill a religion" just to have it their way. Men and Women across the global are intelligent and smart, and as I said it before, they are smart enough to know how to deal with and view Child Abuse happening all over the place, even inside religions. I doubt you would be excommunicated for speaking about it. The only reason why not many are comfortable about speaking of Child Abuse is address in the a great multitude of PSA for Child Abuse (it is not a comfortable subject to just randomly talk about it to a bunch of people out of the blue), it is not about causing division, it is about being smart when to talk about and when to speak your mind about. If you wanted to get your message across, you could have started off a conversation with one or two people, then get into the subject of Child Abuse right then and there if it is raised, for if an African JW church can speak on these issues no problem or a Hispanic one by doing it the right way, so can you. In today's society, you have to be wise of your words to others and when to use such words and or expressing an issue or a problem to others. Other then that, I said this because I deal with children also who have some issues and adult friends of those children, they will not like talking about Child Abuse unless you are cool with them or sit down and speak with them and possibly when the subject is brought up, then you speak of the matter.

And no, JWs are not afraid to talk about anything (opponents tend to target and confront newbie/novice JWs of the faith, but back down when one knows their bible well), but they recognize when it is a smart way to speak of a subject and when, there are really tough JWs to talk to, one of them being The Z man who is like a zen master in scripture and theology who occasionally pops up on the Soulja of God and Jason A channels and is a contributor to helping out in child kidnappings. I had visited a lot of other religious groups within the past decade and even the JW ones, I went to their church, an African one, Swahili to be specific, I went to a Spanish one, a Caribbean one, Korean and even English, none of them are scare nor is anyone of them in fear - for if they have a fear, they fear God, as it is written to be God fearing as the bible says and they do ask question, of course interfaith based questions will not sit well with them, for regardless of religion, interfaith questions tend to get you kicked out for it is a sign you have chosen a different faith, went on on your own or just simply do not want to attend the church anymore, an example is like saying you accept Christ and consider Jesus God, obviously that will not sit well with JWs.

In the Unitarian faith if you speak of Jesus as God or talk about Trinity Doctrine, it will most definitely get you excommunicated, or if bringing up questions that goes against what is true.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jesus himself was very blunt and to the point when he noted those that were trying to twist things and use lies and false ideas. Sometimes there is no other way, you just have to tell someone that you can see 'where they are coming from'. 

He also wants us to respect, be mild and humble our fellow man. Tom never lied about anything for what he said about ARC and onward is indeed true, especially when he spoke of Internal Disciplinary methods of churches, which is pretty much internal investigation. He brought up prevention rates of child abuse, something people do care about as well as the issue, so thinking of him as a servant of the devil when the man has not uttered a lie in discussion with you, is lacking and shows you are not caring of any word he says - there is a bible verse for that for not listening to someone. In addition to that it is already seen as to where he is coming from, for this mentioning of solidifying facts is true, to be in denial of what is true only results in the opponent in the discussion butchering Christ's words and in turn, will use scripture for the wrong reasons and or a verse or two that is unrelated to what is being spoken.

For let's say if Tom was lying, for if he was in the wrong, real information would break down every pillar he builds in an instant to what he is pushing out in his posts - but in this case there was no fault on his part, no error or falsehood, therefore, a strong statement by calling him a servant of the devil has no foundation to hold itself.

The bible speaks of false accusations, all in all to repay such a reaction to a man who has not committed any wrong for speaking for what is true, is not something that pleases God, regardless of what the subject is about, for your resolve would have made sense if Tom was lying - which is not the case here.

That being said, be in harmony with the Christ and within God if someone is in the right.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

JW's Governing Body make up the rules and change them when it suits, by misusing scriptures. Elders in turn act like robotic servants of the Governing Body. There is no love shown, no empathy. This has been made so clear by the victims of Child Abuse Earthwide and by people that have been shunned for no good reason. And now i fall into the latter catagory. Shunned by brothers and sisters, probably because they think i was disfellowshipped, as they don't tell people when they say ' John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. Members of the congregation have no idea if i was disfellowshipped or if I left of my own choice. Though i am very disappointed by those i told prior to leaving, that they too should shun me. But once again fear of man, fear of the elders, fear of 'getting into trouble' if they talk to me.. It's very sad.

Hard-pressed Bible Restorationist do not make up their own rules and or regulations, if they did change or misuse scripture, you need to give an example, because there is many facts, resources and information that proves otherwise when regarding any Christian faith that derive from that Restorationist Era, this includes JWs. Elders and Deacons tend to be the boring folk, but what is embedded in them is their faith, and their love of God and the teachings, as well as following the example of Jesus, one of these examples is expressing qualities of both God the Father and Jesus Christ, which early Christians practice to life by as a Christian lifestyle and today only a few Christian minorities practice this, JWs are among the Christian minorities outside of the mainstream. Church leaders of the faith act as Shepherds to a Flock, something of which Jesus stated in John 10:16: And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd (also see Ezekiel 34:23, 37:24, Luke 12:32 and 1 Peter 5:4). For a Shepherd who tends to his flock will show love to it, in this case, it applies to Christians of a professed faith too. An example I can give is I had seen JWs and among all faiths I visited at some point, the Swahili one is among many that expressed a great deal of love to one another because they are not only bind by faith, but by their culture, no elder and or churchgoer acted as robots compared to the American  Mega Church I had gone to in the past. That being said, each church is different by their culture and their chemistry with one another, at times it varies, but it is far more evident in the non-american churches, English ones tend to be the common folk and average in their love for one another while others tend to go above and beyond.

Again, Child Abuse among the group is focused in the US, the UK and some EU countries and or EU jointed ones, there was no issue with Arabian JWs, none with Asian ones, or the Congo ones, etc. For if the problem was indeed Earthwide, all those areas would have been affected, but instead we have political factions, kidnappers, extremist who target the faith for they cannot and will not fight back. Victims of JW child abuse will speak up, and have done so, but like every other religion, it won't stop newcomers to the faith, for what they tend to be more focused on is the belief and the teaching of scripture. As for Shunning, even JW opponents stated that it is indeed biblical, but they also add that they can choose to ignore that scripture, the same is said about mainstream Christians who cherry pick the Scriptures, it is one of the reasons why it is said JWs tend to follow the bible with a great deal of strictness.

They do tell their members, and they tell them if they are excommunicated, they also say if you are inactive or a drifter, as they say. But seeing as how you represent in opposition to the faith despite not hating them, it is enough for them to accept it as excommunication. You are lucky that JWs do not practice He'rem, which is far worse.

And again, if is not men they fear. For if you want shunning, excommunication and or anything pertaining to in-faith and interfaith religious laws being abolish, you can do what some mainstream Christians have done for some time now, pointing to Paul as an Antichrist in his teachings to Christians. There are JWs who have been excommunicated but not shun because they do not bash the faith of which they were apart of, nor reaching the position of Apostasy. That being said, it won't stop them from allowing you to come in and sit in their meetings, while He'rem, you are forced out, physical if need be.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Doing anything on the Sabbath was wrong according to the Mosaic Law and punishable, but Jesus said there were times when doing good would override that Law. But the JW Governing Body do not seem to recognise the principle behind that, hence they show no mercy or love.

Man's Law cannot override God's Law, something of which the JWs will attempt to prevent from happening to them and has prove to be a challenge because of Child Abuse, again, Civil Disobedience, which was a practice by Paul and a number of others in both the Old and New Testament. I already made mention of several women of the Bible, as well as the mentioning King David and his pal, Jonathan.

The sad truth is if a law, rule and or policy is bible based, attempting to  change it and or ignore it goes against what God said, and it goes against what Jesus said, I believe I mentioned this already too.

As for picking and using what fits their doctrine, they are basically in the right - for should they abolish any rule they have or ignore it or just brush over it, they break scripture, in a sense, it is like breaking what is written and continue to attempt to profess your faith as a Christian- which God can clearly see such persons are kidding themselves.

In the end, everyone knows about the child abuse going on in the JW church, but, they will not be on the same warpath you are on against JWs or their leaders, and there has been prove of that, especially by those who understand the rules the JWs are under on the religious side of things, an they also understand the laws of a state and or country, and how things are handled and will have to fight against JW opponents if they have to, which has been happening for sometime now, and in regards to Russia, any JW opposition made there, a rebellion of people will defend JWs, even non-orthodoxy Christians will defend them.

You do not have to agree with JWs, but you should be wise enough to note be a messenger of their opponents who will want to destroy Christianity just to take down JWs, for it has been talked about ever since Christianity is declining. As for me, I know Child Abuse, I know how kids feel, but never I would subjected myself to the path you are on because I am a man of God and I know what is going on and I know how to response to a situation, and again, smarter ways to deal with Child Abuse, which is pure fact that most in the US or the UK do not even consider at times expect the very persons who fight against Child Abuse the problem not people affected by it.

[Space Merchant]

41 minutes ago, Vic Vomidog said:

that is just the way I like it, parrot fashion.

Sadly, there is no crackers or chips for polly here.

[TrueTomHarley]

24 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Sadly, there is no crackers or chips for polly here.

I have changed the remarks I left just prior to Polly.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have changed the remarks I left just prior to Polly.

Ohhhh ... I am sorry I missed them!

Sometimes from the back of the Hall I hear mechanical clicking sounds after the paragraphs are read,  and again and again, three successive people giving the same answers, straight from the article .... and hear someone despondently whispering ...

I gotta oil this thing........

. shoot me, someone please shoot me....

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

..... and, because I am a Barbarian ... I don't.

Does that make me a cruel person?

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley Well I know what i know from my experience in the Org. SM seems to have no  idea, because he generalises about all religions and even compares it to the 'rest of the world'. You though, you have knowledge of the JW Org , so you can admit or deny my claims concerning the Org.

SM wanted an example of the GB changing meaning of scripture, but you Tom will know of some I'm sure. 1. the meaning of the scripture. 'This generation will not pass away' .. 2. the meaning of the scripture concerning 'the Superior Authorities'.  That is just two from memory.

Now, will you admit that some Elders are so upset with the Org that they are actually going against the Org and they are putting documents / letters up online for the public to read. I would compare this to the people of the Nation of Israel who were born Jews, but they chose to turn against the Jewish way of life and become Christians. They did not forsake God did they ? They allowed their God given conscience to guide them in the right direction. So it is for me, I haven't forsaken God or Jesus Christ, but in this day and age it's difficult to know the right direction. 

Now coming back to, what i know I know.  Before I left the Org, I have been in a brother's house talking about things and he has said to me, 'This is between you and me. Don't tell the elders'. Brothers and sisters are honestly frightened of the Elders. Bros and sis are frightened of being disfellowshipped because it is their whole life, their only friends, it's all they have in life. And when a person gets disfellowshipped they are left with nothing. i think that is disgusting. That people should be so frightened of men, because of the 'power' those men hold over people. But you Tom seem to love it. 

And I think you know what I'm saying about the 'so and so is no longer a Jehovah's Witness' thing. it is a way of telling the whole congregation not to talk to that one. Whereas the Bible gives examples / reasons for the ones that should be avoided. By not saying a person  'left the Org of their own choice' , or 'was disfellowshipped', the GB are deliberately telling the congregation not to talk to anyone that has left the Organisation. However, I don't think that is what the scripture means. Hence i say misuse of scripture.

Anyway the sun is shining here and i will go into our garden and give thanks to God for His creation. I hope you all have a pleasant day. i wish you no harm. As i keep saying, we are all individuals and all have our own opinions. So be it. Only time will tell right from wrong.