Jump to content
The World News Media

607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?


JW Insider

Recommended Posts

  • Member
2 hours ago, Foreigner said:

When, was King Nebuchadnezzar made King by secular reckoning JWinsider?

Not so sure why you wanted to pick me out of the crowd. I think it was 605, immediately after his father died. He did manage to get back home probably faster than anyone had ever managed that trip before him.

2 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Since we are referring to BIBLE CHRONOLOGY, and NOT secular chronology, then what kind of intelligence is being referred to here, when 607BC is flatly “denied” but 609BC is *perfectly* acceptable.

 Both dates are secular chronology. But again, I have no problem with 607 being the start of the 70 years. I never have. I have always thought that it was close enough, within a year or two, and that even the term "70 years" need not have ever meant an exact number, to the very month, or even the very year. In fact, the expression was already previously in use by Isaiah:

  • (Isaiah 23:15) . . .seventy years, the same as the days of one king. . .

Whether this meant "lifetime" as in "lifespan" of a king, or the span of the Babylonian period of greatest domination, as the "Isaiah's prophecy" book points out, it doesn't have to mean that the prophecy fails if that period of greatest domination was 67 to 69 years, instead of 70 exactly.

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***

  • “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

What years would you @Foreigner or perhaps @scholar JW or @allensmith28 use to date that 70 years of Babylon's greatest domination as applied to Tyre? Would you start it with the fall of Jerusalem's Temple, or does it make more sense to start it with the earliest years when Babylon was tramping about in the region, beginning to prove its dominance as the next world power in the region?

Besides, you don't know just how long Nebuchadnezzar was the king's representative in Hattu. At what point did Babylon begin controlling Tyre's economy by taking control of key trade routes? (Isaiah 23) At what point did Babylon begin dominating economic and political decisions made in the Hattu region (Syria/Israel/Judah) simply through fear even before the first physical depredations of the land and people were made? I don't think we need to look for a specific event that begins the 70 years of domination, and no specific event that ends the domination. It's pretty easy to get the general time period. (And 2 Chron 36:21 seems to pinpoint the end.)  It certainly makes sense that the prediction of the imminent fall of Nineveh would have been the end of the Assyrian power in the eyes of Jerusalem/Judea. Did it wait until the final and actual fall? And you are right, there appears to be a couple of years when the Egyptian power seemed on par with Babylon's. Egypt was the king of the south at the same time that Babylon was the king of the north. Judeans would continue to choose between them for many years. But even Egypt and Assyria together couldn't stand up against Babylon at Carchemish, as proven in 605. Was Jehovah able to discern the dominance of Babylon even a couple years before 605, while Nebuchadnezzar was still a prince and general?

We could even ask if the devastation and desolation of a city needed to be literal in every respect. Or did prophecy often use poetic language, even poetic hyperbole, in making memorable warnings? Was it even necessary that Nineveh, Jerusalem, Tyre, or Babylon ever be completely desolated? Or was it a warning of what Jehovah was capable of doing as the true sovereign (king) of the world?  For example, In his pronouncement against Assyrian Nineveh, Nahum includes "fear" as part of what devastates and desolates her, yet we know that Nineveh was never totally depopulated:

  • (Nahum 2:8-11, NWT) 8 And Ninʹe·veh, from the days [that] she [has been], was like a pool of waters; but they are fleeing. “Stand still, YOU men! Stand still!” But there is no one turning back.
    9 Plunder silver, YOU men; plunder gold; as there is no limit to the [things in] arrangement. There is a heavy amount of all sorts of desirable articles.
    10 The city is empty, desolate, devastated!
    Their hearts melt in fear, their knees buckle, their hips tremble; (NWT 2013)

    All their faces are flushed. 11 Where is the lair of lions, and the cave that belongs to the maned young lions, where the lion walked and entered, where the lion’s cub was, and no one was making [them] tremble?

Just as we often must do with other prophecies, I sometimes put a softer edge on the chronology in prophecy (unless the prophecy itself tells us otherwise). Dates and numbers can be rounded, just as this has often been explained for other prophecies discussed in our publications.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Views 62.3k
  • Replies 774
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"

This is where Freedom and sanity, and peace come from .... when you disregard people who have proved they have no credibility whatsoever ... and STOP BEING AFRAID OF DYING.  Every living thing th

Posted Images

  • Member
14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Not so sure why you wanted to pick me out of the crowd. I think it was 605, immediately after his father died. He did manage to get back home probably faster than anyone had ever managed that trip before him.

607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

The implication, of being intelligent has made its way to the forefront. Could there possibly be a reason why I picked you out of a crowd? Or can we agree, suggesting intelligence is a futile endeavor, so, that, everyone can drop the sarcasm about being intelligent, when they show the contrary?

16 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Both dates are secular chronology. But again, I have no problem with 607 being the start of the 70 years. I never have. I have always thought that it was close enough, within a year or two, and that even the term "70 years" need not have ever meant an exact number, to the very month.

By that logic, then we could agree that 609BC would be worse of a probability than 607BC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
31 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

everyone can drop the sarcasm about being intelligent, when they show the contrary?

I'm fine with that. That's why I have never bragged about intelligence or even claimed intelligence. You will never see me calling myself "scholar" or referencing titles from college degrees in Theological studies, or speaking about two PhD's as Allen Smith has mentioned multiple times. If a person says something that doesn't stand up to evidence, then it should be questioned. It doesn't matter who says it.

2 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Therefore, wouldn’t it be conceivable, those who boast about their intelligence, are simply playing to an empty room?

The room is actually pretty empty no matter who is playing. Perhaps we can all be thankful for that.

31 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

By that logic, then we could agree that 609BC would be worse of a probability than 607BC.

Could very well be. I'm not married to any of these secular dates. I think what favors the beginning in 609 is the idea that 2 Chronicles 36 seems pretty clear about ending it in 539, with the fall of Babylon at the hands of the Persian.

  • (2 Chronicles 36:17-22)  So he brought against them the king of the Chal·deʹans, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary; he felt no compassion for young man or virgin, old or infirm. God gave everything into his hand.  All the utensils of the house of the true God, great and small, as well as the treasures of the house of Jehovah and the treasures of the king, and his princes, everything he brought to Babylon. He burned down the house of the true God, tore down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its fortified towers with fire, and destroyed everything of value.  He carried off captive to Babylon those who escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia began to reign,  to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill 70 years.  In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah would be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his kingdom. . .

It would be difficult to conceive of continued Babylonian domination in a literal sense when Babylon was no longer a world power. They stopped being a world power around October 539. But you could claim, as some have, that it waited until the proclamation, which could have happened within days, or months. The "first year" by some reckoning could have been during those last 3 months of 539. But maybe it was a couple more months, or perhaps it waited a year or so. There's a minimum that can fit the scriptures, but there is also a maximum. A good chronological methodology considers all the possibilities. We can have a preference based on the weight we give various bits of evidence, but there is still a minimum and maximum range at which we might begin and end the period.

How would you answer the question, based on the Isaiah's Prophecy book about the 70 years of Babylon's greatest domination? Would you start it in 607? Do you think that Babylon's domination continued after 539? That's about 68 years, and for me it fulfills the Bible prophecy from Jeremiah. If you believe the 70 years to be a little more literal, I can see why you might choose 609 to 539, or 608 to 538, or 607 to 537. Of course, parts of 72 years can include 70 full years, and parts of 70 years can include 68 full years (in the same sense that Jesus was in the grave for parts of three days to fulfill "three days and three nights").

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
16 hours ago, AlanF said:

Most atheists are far more knowledgeable about religion than religious people are.

Such a wild statement with no proof!  I speak to many atheists - most of them here in Sweden.... ... Their ideas of religion is what they learnt in Babylon the Great and most have not read the Bible.  Bible education has not been allowed here for 3 generations in the schools in Sweden but in England (many of these privileged ones who scoff at God) attended private Catholic/Anglican schools.

Most do of them do not know their history either (or ignore the facts) - for example - that Darwinism not only inspired the eugenics of Hitler - (6 million dead)  but that in a very short time after Darwin (in a matter of 50 years after 1914) the most people were killed in the entire history of the world - much more than any prior blood thirsty ruler or Christianity could do.    Russian revolution 1917 (atheist government) between 20 to 40 million people.  Mau se Tung(atheist government) - up to 100 million dead; Pol pot in Cambodia.... shall I go on - the list of genocides in the 20th century is astounding! 

Most of these 'high priests of this new religion called atheism' get their audiences from people who think they are smart but are not really analytical thinkers.

By the way I have read Hawkins but not a Dawkins.  I watched many of Dawkins' stupid stuff on YouTube and gave some comments but stopped watching when he said that “humans were seeded by aliens” without giving a scientific reason…..that clinched it for me.... 

Not much brains there just one nasty fellow and made a lot of money while doing it.  He does not care for science or truth.    I like to talk with atheists who really are in search of truth or care about science….and the world.  Some of them are as mocking and arrogant as AllanF….  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

If it's "Babylon's domination" you really, really  think we must fulfill according to scripture . . .   that Jerusalem came under siege in 609, and remained under siege until it fell in 607?

After removing your parenthetical statements, I think this was your question, right? This question appears to be your response to my question about what you would give as a beginning [and ending] of the 70 years of Babylonian domination that would affect nations all around, including Tyre, for different periods of time over that 70 years given to Babylon. You imply that the 70 years could start between 609 and 607, but then you connect this to the time when Jerusalem was under siege and fell, which the Bible ties to the period from about Neb's 17th on up to his 18th/19th year.

You should please correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it that, even though you phrased it as a question, you are accepting the secular dates of 609-607 as the start of the 70 years for TYRE, and other nations, specifically because Jerusalem came under it's greatest domination at that time. But wasn't this supposed to be the 18th/19th year of Nebuchadnezzar? Are you saying that the period of Babylon's domination of the nations all around Babylon could not start prior to the 18th/19th year of Nebuchadnezzar?

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

And then, for fulfilling the 70 years of desolation during which the land kept Sabbath to fulfill the 70 years, during the 70 years it was desolated, what if we considered 607 until 537 for that time period?

I don't think too many would question the idea that the end date must fall very close to 537, at least within a year or two. Of course, then we're back to the problem, that you can't use the date 537 unless you mean a date that would fall a full 20 years after Babylon was destroyed -- if you use 607 as the date of Jerusalem's final fall. This is, of course, because you are using 607 as if it is the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar. You can't mix and match secular dates within the Neo-Babylonian period because they are so tightly intertwined with each other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

I appreciate Nana, Anna and Scholar quoting the relevant scriptures and thanks Allan Smith for some new ideas on the table. I liked your thoughts on the festivals because the entire history of the nation was centered on the celebration of the festivals (Sabbath Year included). Israel was a nation dedicated to Jehovah - they neglected it and went into exile - but the promise of Jehovah was that they would be repatriated back to the land so they can restart their pure worship to him and rebuild the temple. 

 

AlanF is too quick to "poo" other people’s thoughts but I see he makes a lot of wild hmm… “scholarly” statements for which he has no proof for either!  They just lived in cities??  LOL Get real AlanF...  it was not 2017 AD …..but 537 BCE.  By your comments I can see that you do not have any understanding of how the people lived.... 

Dear AllanF this is for you:

When one reads into the scriptures what you ‘want’ it is called speculation.  I quoted several scriptures referring to ‘70 years’ and you concluded it only refers to ‘hegemony’. 

Please look again at:-  Jeremiah 25:11 refers to the LAND which must be desolate for 70 years. “And this whole LAND shall be a desolation.”   

Most of the inhabitants were removed so there was no large scale planting and the land was not kept clean of wild animals.  When they went back to their land they had to clear it to start planting and get on with everyday life – as prophesied. It does not mean the land was barren of people but that  it was laid waste.

Isaih 1: Look! Jehovah is emptying the land* and making it desolate. He turns it upside down* and scatters its inhabitants.   It will be the same for everyone: The people as well as the priest,The servant and his master, The servant and her mistress,The buyer and the seller,The lender and the borrower,The creditor and the debtor.   The land will be completely emptied;It will be completely plundered, For Jehovah has spoken this word.   The land mourns; it is wasting away. The productive land withers; it is fading away. The prominent people of the land wither.   The land has been polluted by its inhabitants, For they have bypassed the laws,

 

Why is your reasoning that these scriptures ONLY refer to ‘hegemony’ faulty?

When in doubt, always go back to :- root cause:  what was the root cause for their exile? Definitely not because Jehovah had a whim to put them under foreign hegemony without a reason…. The reason was because of the law regarding the LAND which must lie fallow every 7th year; together with this, they were not obeying other laws…. and the land on which they were living, was defiled – according to scripture above. 

Jehovah required 70 years by the time of their exile. The number 70 is mentioned too many times to ignore.  If Jehovah uses numbers so many times then he meant to have his 70 years…. Jehovah’s consistency of action based on his word is what gave Daniel trust in this words and he discerned that the end of the 70 years were close. I agree with one of the other contributors on the forum that to give a month to 6 month leeway is acceptable (depending, from where one calculates the year) - it should be very close to 70 years. More discrepancy than this would be unacceptable – not because Jehovah made the error but because we are making an error somewhere.

From whatever angle one looks at this debate: from hegemony side, or the land (Jerusalem) being desolate, there is more than enough evidence for 537BCE.

Cyrus entered from the north when the Tigris river was lower (September) and the battle of Opis took place in October 539 BCE so he could get control of the Median wall. Nabonidus fled to Sippar.  Cyrus followed him to Sippar and so the hegemony was not ‘complete’ while Nabonidus was free. He later gave himself up in Babylon because he had no allies.  Cyrus went ahead and appointed his Satrap, Darius the Mede, and the administrators of the new government.  Then in, 538 BCE, when ALL Babylonia was in his control, Cyrus came back to assume the imperial title “King of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four corners of the world" ….

All Babylonian kings were inaugurated ONLY in the temple of Marduk since the earliest of ancient times on New Year’s day – some of the Syrian kings were also inaugurated in this temple.  So it was on the following New Year that he took this title 538 BCE.

The Babylonian nation was so superstitious that they would not accept a ruler over the city/state if this festival had not been celebrated. Cyrus knew this; he was related to the Babylonian kings on the Median side. The Median King, Darius, was installed as his regent (Daniel’s vision talks of a two headed beast – the Median and Persian.)

Scholars accept Berossos - who is not really a reliable historian and living 300 years after Daniel but they reject the history of Daniel who was definitely there at the time.  Daniel used some ancient Akkadian words that were only in use in Babylon by highly educated administrators. (Nebuchadnezzar started the practice of rebuilding old temples, did archeology of these temples and kept the Arcadian language as a matter of nationalistic pride and tradition. ) Scholars will not take this into account but Bible students know this empire comprised two empires in one – they believe Daniel and his vision of Persia.

The situation was as follows: the nation of Babylon (very superstitious) hated Nabonidus, who was popular at the beginning of his reign, but popularity turned to hate when he built (and restored several) a temple to the moon god in Tema, oasis in Arabia, and left his son Belshazzar to rule in his place.

Nabonidus was absent so much in a period of ten years that he did not celebrate the NEW YEAR - which was sacrilege! -  It was the most important festival for the king and the nation on the calendar!! On the day of Akitu he had to renew his kingship by humbling himself in front of Marduk in front of all the people! The massive festival was 12 days long. Priests of Marduk taught that Marduk will punish the nation for the king’s deviance.

Cyrus was smart and did what was required – bowed to Marduk on the new year’s day and was loved by the people for taking his crown in this 12 day festival - a happy time for the people. He was seen as a great liberator. This is extremely significant  - if one knows the Babylonian mind and how they operated. This festival was in Nissan for 12 days. 538 BCE

Cyrus thereafter issued his Decree in 538 BCE for the return of the Jews. This date is corroborated all over the internet…..go check it out. 

 

So what “process” did this repatriation involve?

In 538 BCE: In the time of Cyrus and Nabonidus, the logistics were definitely NOT what they are today as Allen Smith pointed out but it fell on deaf ears. Yes, they had technology like the catapult, an excellent canal system (for water) for agriculture, the hanging gardens with its pumps etc. but logistics were time consuming due to transport constraints – not the world we know today...

Rushed communications were usually sent by couriers on horseback via a network of routes – other methods were slower.  Letters were dictated and inscribed and baked in Cuneiform and sealed and sent out to the 120 satraps mentioned by Ezra (evidence of 20 only came somewhat later).  Each Satrap would need a few weeks for the news to be spread to all Jewish enclaves. The territory was large and the 10 tribes were widely scattered during the Assyrian rule. The call went out to ALL of Israel not just the Jews (name Jew comes from Judah at the time).

The Jews then had to organize themselves: where to meet so they could move in a group together (a trek of  3-4 months around the desert – the same way Abraham came into the promised land) so they needed to prepare their logistics…. food, tents, protection, for the move with many animals which needed time to graze every day etc. Preparation is needed to take the most needed things, and extra carts made,  to establish a home on the other side. For the first large group of people to arrive in Jerusalem and start to work the LAND and prune desolate fruit trees, open up wells etc – could easily have taken a year. The LAND must not be fallow and must start to produce to break the desolate cycle.

This is the reason I accepted the date of 537 BCE many years ago.  I am not a scholar but an autodidact. One must account for human processes.  Number punching scholars are not prepared to do this.  Reasonableness about the lifestyle of the time; together with the confirmed historical dates, is the logical way to go.  In modern days – reasonableness and a thinking through of the process is one of the major requirements for logical evaluation when judging a case in court.

The date of 537BCE cannot be disproved because no one knows exactly how quickly the Jews moved to Jerusalem.  Those moved by Jehovah’s spirit could have been so excited that they organized themselves faster than we would expect. Reasonableness and logical thinking of the steps needed to start a new life in a neglected place, helps to make the right conclusion.

But if you are not reasonable then one makes wild statements about 1914, for example:  the scope of disasters in the 100 years before 1914. This has no substance and comes from a deep desire to claim that JWs are wrong about 1914. Whether by accident or not – the evidence on  ground zero proves that Jehovah helped the slave to understand this. Reputable historians that are scholars have said the 1914 was the year the world changed forever.

To watch these fights about 1914 by such early books as written in 1823 to me is silly (archeology was not properly established then).  Archeology started about 1801 when Napoleon went into Egypt…..and people made a connection between the pyramids and the bible (and by the way most bible lovers were fascinated with this for a century – it was part of the social talk of the era. 

So when you argue about these things it is a ploy away from the subject (but related) to discredit JWs early history….. If anyone looks back at the early history of any organization one can discredit it because we look at it with the knowledge we have at present…. which is not a fair and proper judgement because one should understand the ‘era’ they were living in to make this judgment. (I think they did pretty well if one thinks that they made many connections just on the knowledge from the Bible without archeology.) An awakening – but all the puzzle was not yet fitted……they did a good job with what they had….because they had a love for the bible and God.

At the time the early JWs wrote in all sincerity up to 130 years ago – they did not think that some ‘modern’ scholar would come a hundred years later and ‘nitpick’ every word to check out the ‘semantics’.  

The archeology available today has only come through the translation of thousands of tablets – especially the last 40 years…..  

 

Reign of Cyrus (538BCE when he was crowned king of all the earth):

Excerpt from Josephus: In the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity

 

Conditions during the captivity - ALLEN F has it wrong!

The boys from the ruling class were trained at the palace of Nebuchadnezzar.  The largest settlements were villages located along the Chebar River (which was an irrigation channel for agriculture).  The Jews (Juda) were allowed to live together in communities and they were allowed to farm and make all sorts of things to earn a living.  Some became rich…  They needed to keep their farming skills for their return…to work the land again.  They would have planted vegetables and feed for animals.

One can get almost 4 generations in 70 years – if they did not keep up their skills for farming their children will go back to Israel with no skills to sow etc. I see Jehovah’s hand in the circumstance that many of the Judeans were placed at the Chebar River and Ezekiel was there with them - if I remember correctly.

 

Jeremia encouraged the Jews to get on with life in captivity - Jer 29:4-11

4 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon:

5 Build houses and dwell in them; plant gardens and eat their fruit.

6 Take wives and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, so that they may bear sons and daughters -- that you may be increased there, and not diminished.

7 And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the LORD for it; for in its peace you will have peace.

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are in your midst deceive you, nor listen to your dreams which you cause to be dreamed.

9 For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them, says the LORD.

10 For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.

 

I have a peeve with academics:

(Now this is my peeve with many academics:  they just care about ‘dates’ and are totally disconnected to the practicalities of everyday life in the ‘period’ they research.                 

A good example (unrelated to this subject) is Western scholars - when they talk about Islam… claim that Mohammad never existed and the entire religious system was developed over a period of 200 years by other leaders….Why?  Because there are NO secular written references to him and NO secular dates - except the writings attributed to Mohammad by himself and his followers. 

They do not understand tribal and nomadic life. Other kingdoms in Arabia have king lists and histories but these tribes were not capable of writing an accurate historical biography immediately after Mohammad’s death.  In Mohammad’s case – the sword - was the most efficient way of spreading the faith – not writing.  Later, when scholars from Persia etc. was added to the fold – more writings and analytics appeared and many additional teachings from other faiths were added to the writings which already had  been plagiarized from many other religions).

Similar in this case – there are processes at stake we no-one can disprove or prove so we accept the most logical - which also has living evidence on ground zero.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

The thought just occurred to me with

22 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah required 70 years by the time of their exile. The number 70 is mentioned too many times to ignore.  If Jehovah uses numbers so many times then he meant to have his 70 years…. Jehovah’s consistency of action based on his word is what gave Daniel trust in this words and he discerned that the end of the 70 years were close.

That the "official" designation of a "Generation", in Jehovah God's viewpoint ... IS 70 YEARS.

Hmmmm ...

... comments?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
1 minute ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Generation", in Jehovah God's viewpoint

The bible says 70 or 80 years..... but one never finds a generation where everyone is the same age - they all vary.... born in different years.... so they overlap.... 80 if one is strong and 100 if exceptionally strong!.... something I will not see! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm fine with that. That's why I have never bragged about intelligence or even claimed intelligence. You will never see me calling myself "scholar" or referencing titles from college degrees in Theological studies, or speaking about two PhD's as Allen Smith has mentioned multiple times. If a person says something that doesn't stand up to evidence, then it should be questioned. It doesn't matter who says it.

Then why single out one person, when others like ALANF AND SCHOLAR JW have the same perception of calling themselves within the same level of expertise and portray that same intellectual perception. I believe, the POSTING on the MAIN PAGE of this WEBSITE, shows what you are attempting to single out one person with your statement. So, either you are deliberately being selective, and hate this person, which is against all that Jesus taught? or you are defending those that reject the Watchtower chronology, Which is another view Jesus taught against. Nothing personal, just an honest observation.

You can’t imply, you have no problem with the WT chronology, and then reject the WT chronology and allow your views of rejection be POSTED in AD1914, as though, it is something, factual.

Many scholars agree, those that present an objection, are obligated to show SOLID proof of their objection. Thus far, the objections have been met with speculation, where’s the intellectual mind?

 

 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Could very well be. I'm not married to any of these secular dates. I think what favors the beginning in 609 is the idea that 2 Chronicles 36 seems pretty clear about ending it in 539, with the fall of Babylon at the hands of the Persian.

You are confident that 607BC in NOT the correct year for the destruction of Jerusalem, and have cited with, secular chronology, of 587BC, yet you give a vague response that it COULD VERY WELL BE? When we can be confident with this CLAIM TO BE UTTERLY FALSE. If 607BC is farfetched, then 609BC is FAR WORSE, no, it "could very well be" need to be applied.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
3 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

And, so as not to neglect 538

Here lies "Alanf'" and JWinsider" argument. That 538BC shouldn't be overlooked. The Jews received the edict in early 538BC and returned and arrived in late 538BC, thus fulfilling the scriptual70 years in 539BC as indicated by ALANF's friend and colleague Jeffro, not 538BC. Normal people should be able to add or subtract. 538BC+70=608BC. 1 year more than what the Watchtower has been claiming for a century. 539BC+70=609BC, NOT 608BC. 2 years more than what the Watchtower has been claiming for a century now. This whole time, COJ proved nothing since the GENTILE TIMES would have started with the death of King Josiah in 609BC. So, 1911 or 1914 when Jesus sat on the throne can still be applied, within a 3-year difference. WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE RAYMOND FRANZ. That he jumped the gun, on sheer speculation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***

  • “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

What years would you @Foreigner or perhaps @scholar JW or @allensmith28 use to date that 70 years of Babylon's greatest domination as applied to Tyre? Would you start it with the fall of Jerusalem's Temple, or does it make more sense to start it with the earliest years when Babylon was tramping about in the region, beginning to prove its dominance as the next world power in the region?

Interesting

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

How would you answer the question, based on the Isaiah's Prophecy book about the 70 years of Babylon's greatest domination? Would you start it in 607? Do you think that Babylon's domination continued after 539?

This, of course, would be on how you wish to view history. Technically, Babylon subdued King Jehoiakim in 605BC, as per secular history and 3 years later, 602BC, he rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar, and in 587BC Jerusalem was destroyed. So, either you're trying to justify 50 years to 70 years, or your calculations fall short within those 70 years. So, what would be the reason to use 609BC if you want to be precise? 608BC, then, you end up in 538BC, 1 year after the fall of Babylon. So, what would be the reason to use another speculative view about Isaiah’s Prophecy, if this claim can’t be added, either? Don’t you think, you are attempting to make things fit, just as the Watchtower is being defamed for?

Just to put things into perspective to those that get confused. AlanF, Ann O'Maly, and JWinsider, claims from 609BC-587BC=22 years. Where does the 19 years in SCRIPTURE, the SAME 3-year difference being argued about for the WT chronology, fall, then? SPECULATION IS ALL YOU HAVE!!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites





  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Popular Contributors

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • It appears to me that this is a key aspect of the 2030 initiative ideology. While the Rothschilds were indeed influential individuals who were able to sway governments, much like present-day billionaires, the true impetus for change stems from the omnipotent forces (Satan) shaping our world. In this case, there is a false God of this world. However, what drives action within a political framework? Power! What is unfolding before our eyes in today's world? The relentless struggle for power. The overwhelming tide of people rising. We cannot underestimate the direct and sinister influence of Satan in all of this. However, it is up to individuals to decide how they choose to worship God. Satanism, as a form of religion, cannot be regarded as a true religion. Consequently, just as ancient practices of child sacrifice had a place in God's world, such sacrifices would never be accepted by the True God of our universe. Despite the promising 2030 initiative for those involved, it is unfortunately disintegrating due to the actions of certain individuals in positions of authority. A recent incident serves as a glaring example, involving a conflict between peaceful Muslims and a Jewish representative that unfolded just this week. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/11/us-delegation-saudi-arabia-kippah?ref=upstract.com Saudi Arabia was among the countries that agreed to the initiative signed by approximately 179 nations in or around 1994. However, this initiative is now being undermined by the devil himself, who is sowing discord among the delegates due to the ongoing Jewish-Hamas (Palestine) conflict. Fostering antisemitism. What kind of sacrifice does Satan accept with the death of babies and children in places like Gaza, Ukraine, and other conflicts around the world, whether in the past or present, that God wouldn't? Whatever personal experiences we may have had with well-known individuals, true Christians understand that current events were foretold long ago, and nothing can prevent them from unfolding. What we are witnessing is the result of Satan's wrath upon humanity, as was predicted. A true religion will not involve itself in the politics of this world, as it is aware of the many detrimental factors associated with such engagement. It understands the true intentions of Satan for this world and wisely chooses to stay unaffected by them.
    • This idea that Satan can put Jews in power implies that God doesn't want Jews in power. But that would also imply that God only wants "Christians" including Hitler, Biden, Pol Pot, Chiang Kai-Shek, etc. 
    • @Mic Drop, I don't buy it. I watched the movie. It has all the hallmarks of the anti-semitic tropes that began to rise precipitously on social media during the last few years - pre-current-Gaza-war. And it has similarities to the same anti-semitic tropes that began to rise in Europe in the 900's to 1100's. It was back in the 500s AD/CE that many Khazars failed to take or keep land they fought for around what's now Ukraine and southern Russia. Khazars with a view to regaining power were still being driven out into the 900's. And therefore they migrated to what's now called Eastern Europe. It's also true that many of their groups converted to Judaism after settling in Eastern Europe. It's possibly also true that they could be hired as mercenaries even after their own designs on empire had dwindled.  But I think the film takes advantage of the fact that so few historical records have ever been considered reliable by the West when it comes to these regions. So it's easy to fill the vacuum with some very old antisemitic claims, fables, rumors, etc..  The mention of Eisenhower in the movie was kind of a giveaway, too. It's like, Oh NO! The United States had a Jew in power once. How on earth could THAT have happened? Could it be . . . SATAN??" Trying to tie a connection back to Babylonian Child Sacrifice Black Magick, Secret Satanism, and Baal worship has long been a trope for those who need to think that no Jews like the Rothschilds and Eisenhowers (????) etc would not have been able to get into power in otherwise "Christian" nations without help from Satan.    Does child sacrifice actually work to gain power?? Does drinking blood? Does pedophilia??? (also mentioned in the movie) Yes, it's an evil world and many people have evil ideologies based on greed and lust and ego. But how exactly does child sacrifice or pedophilia or drinking blood produce a more powerful nation or cabal of some kind? To me that's a giveaway that the authors know that the appeal will be to people who don't really care about actual historical evidence. Also, the author(s) of the video proved that they have not done much homework, but are just trying to fill that supposed knowledge gap by grasping at old paranoid and prejudicial premises. (BTW, my mother and grandmother, in 1941 and 1942, sat next to Dwight Eisenhower's mother at an assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Eisenhower family had been involved in a couple of "Christian" religions and a couple of them associated with IBSA and JWs for many years.)
  • Members

    No members to show

  • Recent Status Updates

  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      65.4k
    • Total Posts
      158.9k
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      17,670
    • Most Online
      1,592

    Newest Member
    Apolos2000
    Joined
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.