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I am the Christ


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Well, a partial answer can be found by considering: Zephaniah 2:3: "Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, who observe his righteous decrees. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably yo

Just posting this to see where it fits into the topic, if it fits in.  Just thought of it. (Hebrews 11:26) because he considered the reproach of the Christ to be riches greater than the treasures

That sentence might have just pinpointed the issue. Russell collected a body of teachings and promoted them with faith and vigor and a sense of urgency. Jehovah doesn't forget his work and the love he

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41 minutes ago, indagator said:

I find this OP by JWI thought provoking. It seems that some of the reply posts have taken the thread a bit off topic, as so often happens on forums, but his original point highlights that much of what CTR taught might be taken, especially by someone at the time (and others looking at things retrospectively), as likely to indicate that his religious movement would falter.

I'm glad you found it thought provoking. That was the intent. What I like about a forum such as this is that a person can share the types of things that that have provoked one's own thoughts and then hear whether others have thought about the same, or if others agree or disagree with the thoughts. In the congregational setting, not all thought-provoking thoughts can be shared, or else they must be shared with great care, especially when one considers the counsel of Jesus to avoid stumbling others.

However, in a discussion forum such as this, a sincere person can ask any question, even one that might not have been asked in a congregational setting for fear of stumbling others.

There is nothing new in this topic, of course. Although it's something that's little known among most Witnesses.  The primary source is Watchtower publications, in this case.

So back to the idea of the content and style (or should we say "the object and manner") of the religious movement under Russell's leadership. Yes, one of the points is that Russell would most assuredly have stumbled many persons who tried to follow his leadership if they took him as seriously as he took himself. But, as you say, it also shows, as we often say, that the work he was doing was blessed sometimes in spite of his efforts, rather than just because of his efforts. It's an expression you will still hear among the brothers in modern times, too, referring to how things still often work out for the best in spite of us apparently getting in the way of ourselves. 

The idea that this religious movement could therefore be expected to "falter" and yet greatly succeeded is quite true. Of course, we realistically should also learn from the fact that it really did falter many times, with many great times of stumbling, sifting, false prophetic predictions, even teaching twisted private interpretations as doctrines, etc. Looking at the likely proportion of gains and losses among the brothers is infomative. Barbour and Russell knew that there could easily be as many as 50,000 Second Adventists who could be receptive to Barbour's eschatology. Barbour apparently was building up to a readership aiming at such a number when when his own 1874 "Disappointment" knocked his expectation from near 30,000 back to a readership of less than 5,000. Russell went straight for the 50,000 again when he initially teamed with Barbour in 1877, but another 1878 "Disappointment" put his expectation for his own paper (Zion's Watch Tower) at less than 8,000 when it started in late 1879. Membership built up again slowly, but specific doctrinal challenges evidently produced schisms linked to those doctrines.

For comparison, Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists both came out of the same time period and built from the same "Burnt Over District" milieu as a foundation, and steadily gained converts on par with the Bible Students, and even passing them. Today, there are more active JWs than Mormons. (Mormons count 14.5 million, but only about 30% actively attend meetings.) SDA has grown to at least 25 million, 3 times the size of the Watchtower/Bible_Student/JW movement, perhaps even with a larger number actively attending meetings and joining in church activities. Yet JWs are successful in promoting an even greater level of weekly and monthly congregational and ministerial activity, even with only one-third the members.

Again, I mention all this unnecessary background because I wouldn't start counting the "success" back in Russell's time. The Watchtower often points to 1919 as a truer beginning of our current movement (after Russell died). I would put it just 15 years later, in 1934/5. Since then, the progress has been steady, and the doctrinal changes have been overwhelmingly positive. The movement since about 1934 has very few points of recognizable comparison to the movement under Russell. 

That said, I was not saying that Russell's "I am the Christ" claim, which he would share with others of the "high calling" was even Biblically incorrect. I don't fault it as a crazy doctrine. His basis was rational. It would have been easier for a more hesitant person to be concerned with what others might think of them for making such a claim, but he chose this interpretation over any fear of backlash because he must have thought it was right.

This reminds me of another idea Russell had that we might think is crazy now, but it showed a real faith in the outworking of God's "divine plan." Russell thought that he might be a ghost. That's how outsiders might interpret his idea that it was possible that he might wake up some morning in or after 1881, and actually be a spirit in the way that Jesus showed himself to the disciples after his resurrection, able to eat and drink and even show his old scars.  Russell apparently mused that he might not even know exactly when the "change" from flesh to a spirit creature had happened, if the anointed of the high calling were changed, but did not immediately ascend to heaven. It was a very odd view of how the rapture might work, athough a more traditional view of the rapture had been held in 1878 and 1881, and this expectation was finally put off until 1914 and then 1915.

Others can look at all these and just focus on the apparent "craziness" of it all. But we can also look at it with the idea that Russell must have had a solid, strong faith in the expectation surrounding the "fact" that Jesus really was present in 1874 and ready to act on behalf of the faithful. If he was some kind of charlatan building a religion to gain followers he would not have stuck his neck out. He would have been more concerned with consequences of being wrong. The same could be said for Rutherford's biggest mistake in predicting 1925. He must have had a real and strong faith in this particular interpretation of prophecy.

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On 5/31/2018 at 6:33 PM, JW Insider said:

The Watchtower printed its last article in support of the Trinity doctrine in 1880

Could you give a reference for this one please.

On 5/31/2018 at 6:09 PM, JW Insider said:

Obviously, we aren't going to find Russell using those words, "I am the Christ."

This isn't really as controversial as it seems. The term "Christ" or "Messiah" was used scripturally  in the past of a number of priests, kings, prophets, (both faithful and unfaithful Israelite) and even Cyrus, a pagan king. It only becomes sensational when viewed against the great significance of the term when applied to Jesus Christ and also in the light of eschatological warnings regarding false christs. So Russell's musings on applying the term to the Christian congregation of anointed followers so clearly termed as the "body of Christ" in Scripture are quite understandable, especially when viewed against Peter's words at 1Pet.2:9.

That these "musings" should be blown out of proportion in the manner outlined by @JWInsider is for me a combination of what, very likely, was the effect of such statements in the mind of impressionable contemporaries. One only has to look at the reaction today of similarly impressionable folk today when "religious pronouncements" are made by those deemed as having the authority to do so. This must be coupled, I might add, with with some highly creative writing in observation of those latter 19th-early 20th Century beliefs.

As for the erroneous perception of Christ's parousia and the fanciful the chronology of late 1800s, is this as far-fetched as it appears at first sight?

Indeed, Jesus himself stated that he would be with his followers until the conclusion of the system of things. (Matt.28:20). And I think it would be safe to say that this statement would be applicable to his true followers only, in the light of Matt 18:20 and Matt.7:22-23. So it seems to me entirely plausible that sincerely motivated followers of Christ could be made aware of a presence of Christ, who, after all,  is the active head of the true Christian congregation, ( comp. Rev. Chaps.2&3), regardless of any errors members of that congregation made in the timing of their eschatolgy, and their interpretation of whatever was taking place at the time. What men believe is of no consequence to Jehovah or Jesus in terms of ensuring that their will is carried out. Correction of thinking can be carried out later, as long as the priority actions are in progress. Compare Prov.21:1:"A king’s heart is like streams of water in Jehovah’s hand. He directs it wherever He pleases.".

Hence the feasabilty of the following observation in connection with Charles Taze Russell and associates, both contemporay and subsequent:

On 5/31/2018 at 5:48 PM, JW Insider said:

his success is sometimes looked at as proof that God blessed his efforts in spite of his doctrines, not because of them.

?

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Thanks, JWI, for the reply. Yes, this forum may be better than others I've visited. It has a number of haters and Jesus freaks but they have nothing to offer, truly the spiritually dead. What I like about it is the apparently small number of real thinkers who still have faith in scripture and a healthy, balanced view of the bros/org without slipping into the fantasyland that most Witnesses must live in.

The org today has reached a real nadir in its existence. The bros at the top are extremely limited, evidently more so than at any time of its past. Being such an authoritarian group, this manifests itself in the real lack of thought-provoking anything. I surely do not know what Jehovah has in mind for his people at this time, but the small element of faithful thinkers here seems like a real refreshment. In a sense, perhaps, a sort of "remnant"—ha!

JWI: "the work he was doing was blessed sometimes in spite of his efforts, rather than just because of his efforts. It's an expression you will still hear among the brothers in modern times, too, referring to how things still often work out for the best in spite of us apparently getting in the way of ourselves." Along the lines of the overall moral lesson to be gleaned from the Josephus saga (Gen. 45:5-8)? Other passages could be cited too.

So I guess I'll hang around for a while and give and take what I can, as I have the time from my other pressures in life.

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8 hours ago, Gone Away said:
On 5/31/2018 at 1:33 PM, JW Insider said:

The Watchtower printed its last article in support of the Trinity doctrine in 1880

Could you give a reference for this one please.

Sure. The most pro-Trinitarian writing promoted by the Watch Tower Society actually came from the WT's assistant editor, Paton in 1880. Paton's writings in the Watch Tower supported the Trinity, and a book he authored, "The Day Dawn" was clearly Trinitarian although its main focus was to prepare the faithful for the prophecies pointing to 1881. Paton had also been Barbour's assistant editor until 1879 and both Barbour and Paton were unquestionably Trinitarian. Trinitarian-friendly wording even shows up in "Three Worlds" (the early collaboration between Russell and Barbour). It criticized the Christadelphians for not believing the Holy Spirit was a Person. Since the Proclaimers book distances the WTS from the "Day Dawn" I'll include just a bit of info about the book from before that publication, including this from the June 1880 WT. (emphasis mine.)

"The Day Dawn, or the Gospel in
Type and Prophecy."

  • The first copy of this work has just been received from the printer, and the entire edition of 4,000 copies will be ready for delivery by the time this paper reaches you. It is a more exhaustive and elaborate work than we had at first expected; more so by far than anything ever presented on the above topics, from our standpoint. It contains 334 pages in clear and distinct type. To give an idea of its size, we would say that it contains about three times as much matter as the "Three Worlds," a book familiar to most of our readers, now out of print. . . . we should say it is a work which will do an inestimable amount of good, and to many, will be an instructor second only to the Word of God. . . .  the subject is made so beautifully plain and clear, that many, we believe, will bless God for having been permitted to read it. It is divided into twenty-nine chapters, and like God's book, contains things "both new and old."

"Price of Day Dawn, in paper covers, 50 cts.
" " " " cloth " 75 "

  • . . . We hope that every reader of the WATCH TOWER will avail himself at once of these liberal terms. The time arguments alone, clearly and plainly stated, should do you fifty dollars worth of good if not more. Those who can afford to do so, should keep a dozen copies on their loan list. 

WT articles are seen promoting the book well into the year 1881. In fact, the oft-quoted article from 1881 "Wanted 1,000 Preachers" was part of a campaign to sell "Day Dawn" books and WT subscriptions. Note this quote from that article in April 1881:

  •   . . . as a work of kindness and love to them, endeavor to sell them the "Day Dawn," or to take their subscription for the "Watch Tower,"

*** w55 2/1 p. 76 Part 3—Expanding the Organization ***

  • While the Society had been circulating a bound book entitled “Day Dawn,” written by an early associate, J. H. Paton, it was decided for Russell to become writer of a new book to be called “Millennial Dawn,” which after many difficulties appeared in 1886 as Volume 1 of a promised series.

In one point, the Day Dawn book stated (p.225):

  • The work of the Holy Spirit is one of the most important elements in the plan of revelation and salvation. He is always spoken of by the Saviour as a Person, and is called the "Spirit of truth." He inspired men to write or speak the truth; and second, He enables men to understand it. By comparing this with 1 Pet. 1:11, it will be seen that the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ are used interchangeably.

The March 1880, WT had said:

  • There is and ever has been but one Christ. A change of nature does not change identity. Whether as the pre-existent One, as the Word made flesh, or as the High Priest who can be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, He still is Lord, and as such we worship Him. "Ye call me Lord and Master," said He on earth, "and ye do well, for so I am. . . . to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong, for when He bringeth the first Begotten into the world, He sayeth, "Let all the angels of God worship Him." And Again, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Thy hands.

Of course, the idea that it was proper to worship Jesus Christ remained in the WT much longer and was even part of the amended corporate charter of 1944, and was explicitly a part of our teachings until 1953. (See, Make Sure of All Things, under the heading "Christ to be Worshipped as a Glorious Spirit") But this is not technically a  support of the Trinity. Combining this, however, with arguments in favor of seeing the Holy Spirit as a Person, would be supportive of the Trinity.

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2 hours ago, indagator said:

The org today has reached a real nadir in its existence. The bros at the top are extremely limited, evidently more so than at any time of its past. Being such an authoritarian group, this manifests itself in the real lack of thought-provoking anything. I surely do not know what Jehovah has in mind for his people at this time, but the small element of faithful thinkers here seems like a real refreshment. In a sense, perhaps, a sort of "remnant"—ha!

 

 

 

I don't think so. It is always that way. Moreover, I believe scripturally it should be that way. 

It is Paul declaring that he would speak nothing other than the Christ before learned ones. It is the first century leaders ever remaining 'unlearned and ordinary.' It is God laughing at the intellects of the world because he uses people who are not especially intellectual luminaries to do things structure-wise that their intellectual 'betters' could not dream of.

That said, I have not been following this thread (only through lack of time). It can be dangerous to chime in like this, especially when JWI is running the show. With others, it can be done anytime, anyplace, anyhow.

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2 hours ago, indagator said:

I surely do not know what Jehovah has in mind for his people at this time

Well, a partial answer can be found by considering:

Zephaniah 2:3: "Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, who observe his righteous decrees. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger."

Micah 6:8: "He has told you, O man, what is good. And what is Jehovah requiring of you? Only to exercise justice, to cherish loyalty, and to walk in modesty with your God"

Jeremiah 29:10: "“‘For I well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give you a future and a hope"

2Pet.2:8-9: "However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones............he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."

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Just posting this to see where it fits into the topic, if it fits in.  Just thought of it.

(Hebrews 11:26) because he considered the reproach of the Christ to be riches greater than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward.   

(Refers to one being sent on behalf of Jehovah, not to Jesus himself.)


 

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@JW Insider This I will note because a source of my, Mr. Lite, among several of his sources CTR does not mention this (granted that his sources tend to be now dead-links since they are that old), never made any acknowledgment of this, well it was kind expected due how said source has been handled over the years.

Anyways, could it be possible also that Christian Teacher and Writer Henry Grew (1781-1862) also played a role in CTR being against the Doctrine of the Trinity as well? Grew's study in the Bible lead him to reject the teachings of mainstream Christendom, of which is practiced today by both mainstream and New Agers, which is, that he rejected the Trinity, Immortal Soul Doctrine (Immortality of the Soul), literal torment of Hellfire (Eternal torment) and a list of other things.

For people outside of the mainstream also share this view, if I may add.

A list of Grew's writings (there might be more, would have to check)

  • Christian Loyalty: A Sermon on Matthew XXII:21
  • Designed to Illustrate the Authority of Caesar and Jesus Christ (1810)
  • An Examination of the Divine Testimony Concerning the Character of the Son of God (1824)
  • A Tribute to the Memory of the Apostles, and an Exhibition of the First Christian Churches (1836)
  • The Practices of the Early Christians Considered (1838)
  • A Review of Phelps' Argument for the Perpetuity of the Sabbath (1844)
  • The Intermediate State (1849), The Sabbath (1850)
  • An Examination of the Divine Testimony on the Nature and Character of the Son of God (1855)
  • An Appeal to Pious Trinitarians (1857)
  • The Atonement (1859)
  • Divine Dispensations, Past, Present and Future (1861)
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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Anyways, could it be possible also that Christian Teacher and Writer Henry Grew (1781-1862) also played a role in CTR being against the Doctrine of the Trinity as well?

I agree. The influence of Henry Grew on Russell is clear, even if some of it came indirectly through others. There are a lot of parallels and several probable dependencies in Russell's writings to those of Grew although I don't recall if Russell ever quotes him directly.

George Stetson was also anti-Trinitarian, and even George Storrs appears to be non-Trinitarian or at least neutral. Russell was probably non-Trinitarian or neutral in a way similar to George Storrs up until sometime prior to 1882 when Russell writes his own article defending against the Trinity. This was almost immediately after Paton left, so it's likely his mind was clearly made up well before 1882.

*** jv chap. 28 p. 620 Testing and Sifting From Within ***

  • Two years later, [1881] Paton, who was then serving as a traveling representative of the Watch Tower, also began to turn away, thereafter publishing a book (his second one entitled Day Dawn) . . .

[It's the only mention of Day Dawn in the Proclaimers book, and therefore implies that it was only published after Paton left the Watch Tower.]

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