Dutch parliament not satisfied with minister's letter about JW abuse

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

in the greater scheme of things

Did you realise that by this I mean Jehovah's overall purpose, not the overall progress of those who worship Him here on earth?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

in the greater scheme of things

Did you realise that by this I mean Jehovah's overall purpose, not the overall progress of those who worship Him here on earth?

No. I mistook this to mean mostly the latter, although I suppose I was probably reading it more like "in the long run" based on how you compared it with "immediate benefits" (in 'the short run'). That's also because you also used an example that reminded me of "the overall progress of those who worship Him here on earth" which had apparently applied Rutherford's earthly experience to both to "the greater scheme of things" and the "immediate benefits."

On 7/4/2018 at 4:02 AM, Gone Away said:

Nothing changes in the greater scheme of things, but the immediate benefits far outweigh the costs.

I mean I am sure Bro Rutherford's experience was unpleasant at the time, but what was lost?

Of course, I was pretty sure you were not referring to the loss of his health which had been blamed on the penitentiary, and Brother Martin's related purchase of a San Diego residence in order to accommodate those health issues.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

prodding of the greater world.

I was also thinking that TTH should change the expression "the greater world" to "the greater scheme of things." It's a good replacement for "system of things."

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

Are these repeat or individual reports?

A lot of repeats for both. You get a quick sense by the different dates and different states where something is reported. But I only did a spot check.

It's also interesting to consider that, when based on similar criteria, Jehovah's Witnesses are now about the same size as the Presbyterian Church, which is something I added later to the post above.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Per Google there are now about the same number of Jehovah's Witnesses in the USA as Presbyterians: 1,415,053 active members (2017) -- Presbyterian Church (compared with about 1,200,000 Jehovah's Witnesses).

According to PEW research, more than twice that number identify as JWs (2.8 Million), which might be based on Memorial attendance, it being the last religion they associated with, etc. This would make JWs a larger religion than Presbyterians.

@TrueTomHarley I hope you are not considering the idea that these search results prove that you are 30 times more likely to find abuse in the Presbyterian Church than among JWs.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

@TrueTomHarley I hope you are not considering the idea that these search results prove that you are 30 times more likely to find abuse in the Presbyterian Church than among JWs.

60. And don't get me going about the Methodists.

[Evacuated]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"the greater scheme of things."

Sorry if I was a bit unclear. My point was that, regardless of the downs experienced by Jehovah's people on earth, like the incarceration and reputation maligning of the GB in 1918, and regardless of the reasons or blame for those negative events,  the current child abuse crisis will make no difference whatsoever to the successful outworking of Jehovah's purpose, (which includes mankind), "the greater scheme of things". 

We can see that, despite the dire situation and bleak prospects for the IBSA if viewed from a prison cell in 1918, the outworking of events in connection with Jehovah's people on earth in the 100 years since Rutherford's incarceration likely eclipses even the most optimistic "vision" that any of the GB members may have had from their prison cells at that time albeit based on the Bible indications that the good news WILL be preached worldwide, regardlss of any weapons formed against it. What has taken place since then:

• the worldwide expansion of the preaching activity and the response to it,
• the development of Bible knowledge and understanding
• the development of the organisation,
• the publishing infrastructure,
• the expansion into a range of media channels,
• the quality of the published information both in content and appearance,
• the court victories in the field of human rights,
• the defiance of secular dictatorial bodies,
• the enduring and surviving of secular attempts to suppress
• etc, etc

has demonstrated that the success of Jehovah's people in carying out Jehovah's will on earth, has continued regardless of external attempts to suppress, malign, interfere, and despite it's being directed by imperfect humans with the inevitable wrong turns, dead ends,  false alarms, that such direction at times has resulted in. 

I suppose I could have used a picture of Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden instead of the Rutherford mug shot. On a greater scale, there was a pretty hopleless situation for Jehovah's people on earth. There actually weren't any!! And that was the fault of those who once were! Yet in "the greater scheme of things", Jehovah was not phased. His way of working out matters includes many negative experiences for those who worshipped Him, regardless of an anlaysis of blame and reason. But, good has come from every situation experienced (for those who remain faithful), and notably, good on occasion has been administered by those who did not worship Jehovah, and were not a part of His people at the time.

My point was that the current Child Sexual Abuse issue will be the same as past crises for Jehovah's people. It will be resolved, successfully, and regardless of how and who is involved in this, it will make no difference to the outworking of Jehovah's purpose, and, microcosmically, will benefit all involved.

That's why I welcome any intervention, from any source, to resolve such a matter, whilst abhorring those who stoop to such a level of crime, regardless of their protestations of remorse. Let Caesar use his sword, in this case!

 

[Evacuated]

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Per Google there are now about the same number of Jehovah's Witnesses in the USA as Presbyterians: 1,415,053 active members (2017) -- Presbyterian Church (compared with about 1,200,000 Jehovah's Witnesses).

These are interesting figures.

I suppose we need to define activity as well. I mean, what the average JW accomplishes in carrying out God's will for Christians today against what the average Presbyterian accomplishes. Bit like looking at the difference in spending power of the same amount of money in one country's economy against another. 

Oops! oiff topic!

[TrueTomHarley]

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a subscription to newspapers.com and just decided to do a quick search on Presbyterian church child sexual abuse. But even without a subscription you can do this search and at least see that the newspapers in their library produce this result:

The reason I chose Presbyterians is because that is what I was raised. We went to church once a week and I got out of it whenever I could, but it was not easy because Pop wanted the house free of kids so he could read the paper in peace. When I could not avoid it, I always opted for church rather than the Sunday School they always tried to shunt me off to, and this was more interesting, though I can't say I understood it. I always thought that the problem was mine - that I wasn't attentive enough or prayerful enough. I never dreamed that the problem was theirs - that they weren't teaching anything that made sense.

There was absolutely no way any wrong conduct of mine would have reached the attention of the church. There was no mechanism to monitor such. They wouldn't have approved had they known of any, of course, but there was no way they ever would have known. My conduct there was impecable, the same as it is here, but that was not true of anyone.

I wrote the following in Tom Irregardless and Me:

Church discipline used to be a significant, accepted part of most evangelical traditions, whether Reformed, Methodist, Baptist, or Anabaptist,” [evangelical author Ronald]Sider writes. “In the second half of the twentieth century, however, it has largely disappeared.” He then quotes Haddon Robinson on the current church climate, a climate he calls ‘consumerism:’

Too often now when people join a church, they do so as consumers. If they like the product, they stay. If they do not, they leave. They can no more imagine a church disciplining them than they could a store that sells goods disciplining them. It is not the place of the seller to discipline the consumer. In our churches, we have a consumer mentality.

Okay? There may be exceptions, but this is the pattern, says Sider. The seller does not discipline the consumer. It is unimaginable. So how likely is it they are going to learn of illicit conduct in regard to child sexual abuse. Since the church does not look at it, are we to imagine that when police nab abusers in other contexts they ascertain their religion?

I'll leave it for others to dive into the numbers you have provided, and discern just what they mean. In view of the uproar over the last few years, probably everyone is trying to produce stats of some sort that show they have their eye on the ball. To what degree this is the case here I will leave to others to explain. But since, per Sider, they have long looked away, I don't know from how they could have been arrived.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I have mentioned this in the past, but to my knowledge the two most famous Presbyterians that I know about are Dwight David Eisenhower, President of the United States and Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in World War II, who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, and Fozzie Bear, made from some discarded rental apartment carpet, and Star of TV and Movies as the resident Muppet Comedian.