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Shiwiii

The Earth and the meek

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I have started this thread for the discussion of the meek and the Earth, which has come out of the "will only the jws be saved" thread.

 

I will be answering JWInsider and Space Merchant here on their positions and responses to me. 

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it is one of the best ways to find the proper meaning of the following verses, among several others:

 

  • (Matthew 5:18) 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.
  • (Matthew 5:34, 35) . . .neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the footstool of his feet;. . .
  • (Matthew 6:10) . . .Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.
  • (Acts 3:25) . . .: ‘And by means of your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’
  • (Acts 17:25, 26) . . .. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell,
  • (Ephesians 1:9, 10) . . .It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . .
  • (Colossians 1:20) 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
  • (Hebrews 2:5) 5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking.
  • (2 Peter 3:13) 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
  • (Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
  • (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
  • (Revelation 21:1) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;. . .

 

 

 

Matt 5:18  -    how is this any support for meek on Earth? I mean Jesus was speaking about what was to come and what would not pass away (the LAW). He was the fulfillment of the LAW as He died without sin. Sure, Jesus said the "meek shall inherit the Earth", I think we see this a bit different and I'll explain once I respond to Revelation 21:1. 

 

Matt 5:34/35  - This section of scripture is speaking of taking an Oath, swearing on your momma's grave, etc. It has nothing to do with meek inheriting the Earth. 

Matt 6:10 - A section of the Lord's prayer is supporting people on Earth vs people in Heaven? I cannot see that in this scripture. The only correlation is that the word "Earth" is used. 

Acts 3:25  -  This is speaking of what God said to Abraham, not a future fulfillment. It was reassuring Abraham that his children and theirs would be looked after by God. 

Acts 17:25/26 - Paul was explaining who God is and what God has done, again not a prophetic statement. 

Ephesians 1:9/10, Colossians 1:20 - Interesting scriptures to use, as they tie in nicely with Revelation 21 as well. to be expounded upon at the end of my response. 

Hebrews 2:5 -  I suspect you are holding to the "inhabited world to come" portion of this scripture. I agree, to an extent and will address this in my response to Revelation 21. 

2 Peter 3:13 -  New heaven and New Earth.....see revelation 21 response

Revelation 5:10, Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 21:1  --  Ok, here is where I can give you my perspective on most of this. We may disagree, but it is up to us to explain using scripture our position. 

Revelation 5:10 is speaking of who will rule and reign and over what. Men from every tribe, nation and language who have been saved by the Blood of Christ are going to reign over the Earth.  Further in Revelation, where you cited ch 11:18, it speaks of those who are ruining the Earth and that God will ruin them. I'm with you here. Now which Earth are we talking about here? The New Earth or the Old one? Because they are not one in the same. Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.   Here we have scripture stating that the old Earth is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Earth, sure, but never the less the previous Earth is no more. This is "NEW" Earth. Does scripture tell us which Earth the meek shall inherit? nope, but I suspect it IS this new Earth. We kind of agree here I think. 2 Peter 3:13 talking about this new Heaven and new Earth and Hebrews 2:5, I believe is speaking of this new Earth that is to come as well. Men will be on the Earth, no doubt. They will be governed by those that God selects. 

Now I want to explain my view on Ephesians 1:9&10 and Colossians 1:20. These two sections of scripture talk about a joining together or reconciliation of all the things in Heaven and on Earth to Christ. While Christ alone can do this however He wishes, we are told of another reconciliation which would fit this role as well, but it come much later then the harvest. It comes when the new Heaven and the new Earth come into play. Revelation 21: 2&3 tells us that a new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and reside on the New Earth and thus God's dwelling place will be with man. This reconciles all things that are in Heaven and all things that are on Earth, to God. He will be among men on the new Earth. So Heaven will come down to Earth. 

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@Shiwiii I appreciate the points and the thought you put into this. I do not believe that all these verses prove the same point. But I agree with something that @Space Merchant had said about how these promises about the earth which are also prevalent in the Hebrew Scriptures, are often tied into Jehovah's overall purpose. I don't actually know that we can state definitively what will become of the planet, and in what way the Bible means that God will reside with mankind. But the overall view presented in Watchtower publications makes a lot of sense of these verses in their totality.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.   Here we have scripture stating that the old Earth is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Earth, sure, but never the less the previous Earth is no more.

Here we also have a scripture stating that the old Heavens is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Heavens? What makes the heavens new is the new Kingdom, the new reign, the new order. We could say the same about the Earth. You make a statement showing that you also believe there is a new earth, possibly in some sense "physical," which the new Jerusalem comes down to.

The rendering of a verse in 2 Corinthians, below, matches the ideas of Rev 21 & 22. I don't see it necessary to imagine the literal existing heavens hissing away for the verses to be fulfilled. I suppose it's a matter of whether we understand the same things to be figurative or symbolic and which ones we see as literal.

I will live in them and move among them. 
I will be their God. 
They will be My people. 
'So, come away from them! 
Be separate!' says the Lord. (2 Cor. 6:16,17 SEB)

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@JW Insider @Shiwiii Seconded. Then we have things pertaining to those being resurrected, for the earth will give birth to the dead, as some translations would say, or simply put, the earth will let those powerless in death come to life. For some who do not believe in the "all good people go to heaven" doctrine, they grasp what their counterparts cannot, and that is what the new creation entails, in addition, we have those who have their hope in the resurrection itself in addition to eternal life, for the reason they believe in what the new creation will bring, that is the new heavens and earth, all things that has cause mankind to stumble and or commit vile things will cease, for we can look for those who do such acts, but they will not be there, they won't be to the east of you, nor will they be to the west, nowhere at all, as Psalms 37:10 states: In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

For God's Kingdom itself will provide such, for God will act through for His chosen Messianic King to bring back those in out o the dead by a great multitude, and to some, what they really want is to see those who succumb to death and they know only God has the power to reverse that and will execute his promises when the time comes.

We do not know how things will play out exactly, but it is certain, the bible gives us a variety of evidence of what we are to expect should we come to understand what we read, that is, if we are to endure truly until the conclusion of things itself.

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On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

Here we also have a scripture stating that the old Heavens is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Heavens?

Sure could be. I would agree, and it wouldn't matter much if it were literal or figurative, it is still "new"

On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

We could say the same about the Earth. You make a statement showing that you also believe there is a new earth, possibly in some sense "physical," which the new Jerusalem comes down to.

Yes, we could. Again I would agree and it would matter not if it were  literal or figurative.

On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

The rendering of a verse in 2 Corinthians, below, matches the ideas of Rev 21 & 22. I don't see it necessary to imagine the literal existing heavens hissing away for the verses to be fulfilled. I suppose it's a matter of whether we understand the same things to be figurative or symbolic and which ones we see as literal.

I will live in them and move among them. 
I will be their God. 
They will be My people. 
'So, come away from them! 
Be separate!' says the Lord. (2 Cor. 6:16,17 SEB)

No problem here with me either. I do not think that it HAS to be new vs restored. What part I do take literal is the part of "New Jerusalem" coming down from Heaven. Just like you mention in 2 Corinthians. Which is also mentioned in Galatians 4:21-31. The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here. 

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On 7/18/2018 at 10:37 AM, Shiwiii said:

The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here.

 

In Galatians we read that in Ch 3 verse 29, those who belong to Christ are heirs according to promise. They are Abraham's descendants. So what about them? where do they belong? Heaven or Earth?  

Who belongs to Christ?

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On 6/29/2018 at 8:27 PM, Space Merchant said:

the new creation will bring, that is the new heavens and earth

In your opinion is this "God's Kingdom" ? I mean the new heaven and the new earth? 

Logically speaking, I would say yes it is. However what I mean is, God's kingdom will and does consist of everything He has made, but more specifically will heaven and earth be a combination?  

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42 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

In your opinion is this "God's Kingdom" ? I mean the new heaven and the new earth? 

Logically speaking, I would say yes it is. However what I mean is, God's kingdom will and does consist of everything He has made, but more specifically will heaven and earth be a combination?  

Indeed. The heavens and the earth will be made anew. God will put in place the Messianic King that will be in the God's Kingdom, that will replace the Kingdoms of Man with it's own heavenly governmental hierarchy  and alongside him will be those of whom are called the chosen ones, those who are of Heavenly Jerusalem, the Priesthood, that will rule alongside him. The people of the earth will not have to deal with the wicked and will not be and never be hinder by them, oppressed by them or harmed by them, and those on this earth, cleansed of wickedness, will have Eternal Life, for they as well as those among the Priesthood are of the New Covenant, The Spiritual House. We also know that when all things is said and done, when the last enemy has been dealt with, God's Purpose and Will will 100% be accomplished and the Eternal King, the Invisible Father himself will reign.

I believe I have talked about something similar regarding the Spiritual House, before, one my responses to Witness, for this House that it's very foundation being the Christ consist of both groups, and consist what we know about the new heavens and the earth deemed the new creation.

Edit:

It would also seem that the New Guy, is taking a liking of you.

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

It would also seem that the New Guy, is taking a liking of you.

I think I'd recognize that "New Guy" anywhere. From what I can see, it's one guy in 30 persons, and 30 persons in one guy. He takes the idea of "trinity" to a whole new order of magnitude.

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We agree that the new heaven and the new earth will be redeemed, weather that is by means of restoration or by replacement, none the less redeemed. I was just curious if you thought that the two would become one in a sense. Once God's dwelling place is with men, is that the combination, or do you feel that there will still be a separation between heaven and earth? 

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

those of whom are called the chosen ones, those who are of Heavenly Jerusalem

 This Heavenly Jerusalem consists of those called/chosen, do you subscribe to the same views as the jws on this? That this consists of only a select number of folks, say the 144k? 

 

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I believe I have talked about something similar regarding the Spiritual House, before, one my responses to Witness, for this House that it's very foundation being the Christ consist of both groups, and consist what we know about the new heavens and the earth deemed the new creation.

This kind of addresses my first question in this response. Both groups become one under this Spiritual house, but is there still a separation of sorts? 

 

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

From what I can see, it's one guy in 30 persons, and 30 persons in one guy. He takes the idea of "trinity" to a whole new order of magnitude.

now that's funny. Sort of reminds me of Allen Smith.

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This Heavenly Jerusalem consists of those called/chosen, do you subscribe to the same views as the jws on this? That this consists of only a select number of folks, say the 144k? 

This view predates the JWs and it is believed by those who know of what it entails, mainly in regards to such ones who studied the bible and the church extensively. Although some have a different view of the chosen ones, some even suggest it is only a race and or a nation of people (especially when I had to deal with those who say I am from the tribe(s) of Simeon/Levi/Benjamin of which they have no proof of) when the reality is it is a collection of persons who are chosen by God and or those destined for such a service.

It is believed and is true that only a few of these people are left and some will be alive until the End Times conclusion and eventually into the days of Great Tribulations.

Other than that, I actually had some information in detail somewhere, regarding these tribes and what happen to the tribe of Dan, if I do find it I most likely would post it on bible discussion though.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This kind of addresses my first question in this response. Both groups become one under this Spiritual house, but is there still a separation of sorts? 

Those chosen are of the Priesthood, to co-rule as kings and or judges.

The other is those, the heirs, being given eternal life.

Both of them are of the Spiritual House and make up the House. Both of them are of the New Covenant, both of them are of the Seed, only one of them, those of Priesthood,is of the Bride, is of the Firstfruits for we know Jesus is the first and eventually we see 3,000 others and onward of this fold.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

now that's funny. Sort of reminds me of Allen Smith.

Probably because when I checked the guy, Grey Reformer, joined the other day, to be exact Tuesday at 12:50pm on August 7, 2018. I think, or as of what I had seen, think has already made another name for himself weeks ago, but I cannot be too sure.

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