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21 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

No, but I am very well aware of their Christology an the only reason I speak of them is because there is many misconceptions and things said of them that can and will be addressed

Please, what in JW theology exist that you do not support?

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

we both! :)))

please help me to see, by your thoughts, is there something in this World that IS devil product? proved by Bible, because this is point you like to highlight - Bible verses. Thanks.

No, only one of us is in the right, and you should be aware by now I do not rely on my own thoughts and reasoning, as you are doing, I rely on biblical understanding of context and very critical hermeneutics and or exegesis, I rely on historical facts and information of which the early Church followed that derive from the Bible itself, outside of the Bible, I rely on actual Christology of the Abrahamic faiths and understanding of where they come from and capable of distinguishing the truth and the accursed, as with what is true and what is false, and it should occur to you by now of how I am, granted of where I originated from since I already told you, they are quite the strict one among us also.

Now, the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of manÂ’s imperfection. There is war, sickness, death, and all kinds of violence. SatanÂ’s influence is also responsible for the twisting of biblical teachings and or doctrines that is not of early church origin, the teaching that Jesus is God or the fact God suddenly is in full acceptance of what Molech worshippers practice. Satan has also tampered the scriptures in the past, 16th century, since the attempt failed in the 4th century, but later on, present day, we have people justifying the uninspired, saying Jesus saved an Adulterous woman is truth, to say the drinking of poison and not dying is truth when in reality, none of these passages originates from the oldest source that is the Septuagint. People can be corrupt, and or corrupt others by means of influence and or action, such ones are also being open and accepting brazen conduct, even to the point we now have publications in the shops that teach children that laying with someone of the same sex is okay, even worse, they teach young children that Sodomy is okay and how to do it. Man being driven to act out their impulses and or ill desire be it the killing, torture, abuse of others both young and old, in addition to taking advantage of those in order to get what they want.

Every single day, this world continues to take a shovel and dig it’s grave even deeper, but among the Utopia of which Satan is in control of, there are good people who do their best to stay away from these things, those who are unaware are also do their best to stay away from trends that promote ill intent and or practices, such ones end up being taught that such things are taking place  in the world, by those who are influenced by Satan, is clearly something they should not be a part of. On the other side of the spectrum you have the occult. Now this is far more sinister outside of the US for there are parts of the world where Satan’s sole followers being demons can influence people, parts of the Caribbean it is said that evil spirits are able to manifest in some way, shape or form, and knowing my people and the culture, this is indeed true, and a Christian Youth Club paid for that only to escape being alive. From my experience and knowledge of such as well as being an islander, I and others know things that could be kept in the dark because it is deemed way too unreal.

That being said, it is no question that SatanÂ’s influence on people and their actions is ever so evident, but a day will come where he will be knocked off his throne that is the world and his influence will cease for good.

Other than that, I still await on your response to your claim: "Because money is a product of Satan has the Bible indicates." ~ Srecko Sostar (July 18, 2018)

Well, that remains to be seen. I can say right now that any translation can be used, but regardless, such information is not found, to change the matter into saying Satan is the god of this world, has nothing to do with the claim of your saying that money is a product of Satan. I call that hypocritical because you clearly see others in the Bible using money and the fact that Free Will Offering and voluntary donations by means of currency and or product is seen in both the Old and New Testament. You also see the fact of how the major temple in question, The Temple of Jerusalem operates regarding money donations vs. that of the practices of Pharisees, granted how large the temple is, Pharisees are around the vicinity at the time. You haven’t proven anything by using another verse to evade the first claim.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I do not see here that Jesus support economic and money system of Jew, Greek or Roman people. He was not willing to support that.

That is because you truly do not understand what is being said, I chose this fact specifically which includes those verses. Context is key, understanding of passages is crucial.

Matthew 23:23 tells us that in JesusÂ’ day, the actions of The Pharisees compared to those who do not do the same thing as they have done. Because they themselves assume to be doing the GodÂ’s work when they gave a tenth of all that they had (10%), they are deemed hypocrites because showed a total disregard of the Law, putting into application that is not their own. It is known as to what the Pharisees were doing, hence the call out by Jesus, the Christians themselves of that day did not do this, as I said before, the tithe does not apply to Christians at all, for the tithe was a practice solely done by the Levites, excluding the people of AbrahamÂ’s day. This verse also paints a very good example what is stated in that fact that is is very obvious that the Pharisees, even scribes, were enemies to the gospel that Jesus teaches.

Mark 12:41-44 – In this passage, Jesus is located, specifically, at the Temple of Jerusalem, the same Temple as to where he was speaking with and teaching the people. But the focus will be on this passage (which is also equal to the Luke’s witnesses as seen in the Gospel of Luke 21:1-4), the passages are identified as The Widow’s Mite (The Widow's Offering).

Jesus himself goes to where they make offerings, donations of money to the Temple (Temple of Jerusalem) as to what he sat next down to was the Treasury Chest/Boxes (also known as Treasury Chambers), and there we see a widow making an offering to which Jesus gave her praise because she has donated as seen in verse 42, that what the widow has donated is far larger than the donations made by the rich and we can see the continuation of Jesus’ response in verses 43 and 44. The Widow gives two lepta, copper coins, the smallest amount at that time. Jesus contrasts her offering as the greater sacrifice because it is all she had, as opposed to the rich persons who only gave what was convenient. Her total sacrifice foreshadows Jesus' total sacrifice of his life via crucifixion. We also find out that Jesus even makes a response to those who speak of how expensive the Temple looks, granted of what was integrated within the vast temple itself , he also makes mention that a day will come where the temple itself, if reading the passage in the gospel of Luke (referencing Luke 19:44). Those who spoke of how expensive the temple was then questioned him, and here we see Jesus speak of what is to happen, what is to come.

I am sure you are aware of what the First Temple, the Second Temple and the Third Temple is, as well as Jesus equaling such to the of another Temple – His body, The Body of Christ.

The Temple of Jerusalem had Treasury Chests. In the ancient history of the Jews, it is said say that these chests and boxes, or receptacles (Treasury Chambers), were in the shape of and/or like horns or trumpets with small openings at the top of it. People donated various donations in them, pieces of coin, copper, etc.. The total amount of Treasury boxes found in such Temples amount to 13 around the walls of the court itself. Among the 13, it’s believed that the temple contained a primary treasury chest/box where the money donations from all other the treasury chests was brought, being placed in the primary one. Granted on how big the Temple of Jerusalem was, it is no surprise that they would have this many. It is very obvious as to what they use the money for, to care for the temple itself, its people, feeding the poor and put into work of the gospel is being spread on to the people, for those who teach travel and do not travel empty handed. It should also occur to us that Jesus never hinted at His needs. Money that was given to Jesus and His disciples was held for the purposes already made known in the last sentence.

Luke 8:1-3 – Granted that in some cases, the disciples had to have some form of currency, as well as food when traveling so this alone speaks for itself. Other times they had nothing at all, mainly when sent out in twos when they had nothing, no money, food, sandals, etc. (Luke 22:35-38). Especially later on in the ministry of spreading the gospel. It is also mentioned that such ones who travel with Jesus, and even Jesus himself is shown great hospitality. Clearly going from city to city, village to village was exhausting at times and you even read that even Jesus and his disciples at times have to rest, eat, replace worn sandals for new ones, etc. Money and food pouches were also carried around with them, Jesus is said to have given such to his followers who were traveling such as a knapsack and or moneybag, and it is clear as to where such resources originated from.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This verse "proving" my view and understanding on Jesus act: -------------- “But so that we may not offend them, go to the sea, cast a hook, and take the first fish you catch. When you open its mouth, you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for you” and Me.??

The fact that you pulled this from Biblehub and not even bothering to look at the commentary for that verse below, further proves my point. You really do not look into the context of the verse. Also you do realize you can go to the verse in question and just pick from a translation, but rather, in your case, you did a top search and manage to get the Greek - understandable, because even the Greek shows you root words and where such words are use, therefore, being able to pinpoint where the temple tax laws originate from.

The thing is friend, your view and understanding cannot be of your own, it has to be of the Bible and anything pertaining to such. You just made the claim you yield upon solely on your understanding and not of what the passage in the Bible says, that of which is the obvious, was this the same thinking that got you tricked by the whole sporting event thing? For if you understood this passages, you'd make mention of the lesson expressed here. Also remember, when you quote a verse, you provide the location of the verse, otherwise it does not sit well with you for some people.

I can say God is the God of the dead as well and not say where it is in the Bible, people will look at me crazy and or do not get what I am saying. Therefore it is always best to mention the verse, quote it, then try to explain it.

Now, the verse of which you speak (since you didnÂ’t even address the location of that verse) is Matthew 17:27

However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.”

You make another claim and it will be addressed here: Jesus was not voluntary or by obligation participate in paying temple tax.

What you fail to see in this passage is that Matthew 17:24-27 specifically, we read that Jesus told Peter to catch a fish, open its mouth and there he would find money to pay the Temple Tax. Jesus carried no money, as we can already see, hence the early days of his ministry, for JesusÂ’ man base of operation was Capernaum and there is where most of his disciples came from for it is their hometown. He looked to His Father in heaven to supply His needs and we see the Father doing just that.

We see what this passage is says, there are men, religious leaders, who collect Temple Tax and confronted Peter. These men were trying to accuse Jesus for failing to pay taxes, even to the point attempting to prove JesusÂ’ disloyalty to the temple or His violation of the Law.

The Law of the Jews: [The temple tax was required of Jewish males over age 20, and the money was used for the upkeep and maintenance of the temple. In Exodus 30:13–16, God told Moses to collect this tax at the time of the census taken in the wilderness. In 2 Kings 12:5–17 and Nehemiah 10:32–33, it seems the temple tax was paid annually, not just during a census. This half-shekel tax wasn’t a large sum of money, but roughly equivalent to two days’ wages. According to the tractate Shekalim in the Talmud, the temple tax was collected during one of the Jewish festivals: Passover, Pentecost, or Tabernacles.]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Jesus was not voluntary or by obligation participate in paying temple tax. His reason for pay tax money was in some sort of strange reason, "to not offend them".

And you have proven yourself to no understand what is being said, let's continue:

They asked Peter as to why his teacher does not pay the two drachmas regarding the Temple Tax.

Now Jesus, back at the house, was already well aware of what has occurred. So instead of just waiting it out for Peter to this matter into conversation, Jesus tells Simon Peter what does he think of whom do the kings of the earth receive duties or head tax from, if either from their sons or from the strangers.

Peter, in response said from the strangers. Jesus, being observant said the sons are tax free. We later see that a fish on a hook with a coin in its mouth for Jesus’ Father is the King of the earth and the One who is worshiped at the temple. He also points out that since the temple was His Father’s House, that he was exempt, therefore, God’s Son is not legally required to pay the Temple Tax because he is clearly part of his Father's House.It should be clear by now as to what Jesus had said long before he was an adult, in his childhood, he made acknoledgment to the House of His Father.

  • Luke 2:48-51 - (48) And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” (49) And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?” (50) And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. (51) And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.

Fast forwarding to his adulthood and early days of his ministry, Jesus goes on to say to him to go to the sea, cast a fishhook, and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth, you will find a silver coin (stater, or tetradrachma) that just happens to be the correct amount for the temple tax. With this silver coin, Simon Peter is to take that and give it to them, the religious men who demanded the temple tax in the first place, not just for Simon Peter alone, but for him also – pretty much Peter paying the tax for the both of them.

The temple tax passage regarding both Peter and Jesus teaches a valuable lesson. Christians are free, but they must sometimes relinquish their rights in order to uphold their witness and not cause others to stumble. True freedom is not serving ourselves but others.

  • Galatians 5:13 - For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Even before this chapter, we also learn about JesusÂ’ key thoughts on money, which is presented in the Sermon on the Mount. He says to invest in the life to come (Matthew 6:19-24). We do this through giving, not a set church-tax of ten percent of our income like that of what the Pharisees practice and or the Law of the Levites itself, but with an open heart.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In this verse  he did contrary, he support Jew system and not "Lord's work". And as such, religious institutions aka Jew religion (or some other religious institution today), have to be, was been rejected by him and his followers, at the end of a day (or to the end of century in Romans's  siege and destruction of Jerusalem).

1.What is legitimate use of money? (by capitalist view, by socialist view, by particular religious institution view......?)

2.And would you, as beneficiary, accept money, as donation or in other forms, without knowledge and proves how donor/donors made their multiplication of money in legitimate using, way?

This just shows you clearly do not understand the fact that has been quoted

  • [1] The legitimate use of money is by means of aiding in the doings of the Temple. The Jews were in application of a Law that Christians were not suppose to follow, thus the very reason as to why Jesus called them hypocrites. If you missed that point, you clearly did not understand as to why this fact points to this passage.

 

  • [2] I gave you lists to what a Beneficiary is in description and information on such, it would seem you have not even read as to what such information even the investors have put out.

Perhaps this time I will quote it clearly for you:

Quote

What is a 'Beneficiary'

A beneficiary is any person who gains an advantage and/or profits from something. In the financial world, a beneficiary typically refers to someone who is eligible to receive distributions from a trust, will or life insurance policy. Beneficiaries are either named specifically in these documents or have met the stipulations that make them eligible for whatever distribution is specified.

BREAKING DOWN 'Beneficiary'

Typically, any person or entity can be named a beneficiary of a trust, will or life insurance policy, and the one distributing the funds, or the benefactor , can put various stipulations on the disbursement of funds, such as the beneficiary attaining a certain age or being married. There can also be tax consequences to the beneficiary. For example, while the principal of most life insurance policies is not taxed, the accrued interest might be taxed.

Beneficiary of Qualified Accounts

Qualified retirement plans, like a 401(k) or IRA, give the ability of the account holder to designate a beneficiary. Upon the qualified plan holder’s passing, a spousal beneficiary may be able to roll the proceeds into his own IRA. If the beneficiary is a not the spouse, there are three different options for distribution. The first is to take a lump-sum distribution, which makes the entire amount taxable at the beneficiary’s ordinary income level. The second is to establish an inherited IRA and withdraw an annual amount based on the life expectancy of the beneficiary, also known as a stretch IRA. The third option is to withdraw the funds at any time within five years of the original account owner’s date of death.

In the event the beneficiary is either an estate or a trust, the distribution rules are more limited. The stretch option is no longer available and only the lump-sum and five-year rule options are available. Any proceeds left to the estate also make it subject to probate.

A spousal beneficiary of a Roth IRA is also allowed to roll over the inherited proceeds into his own Roth IRA. For a non-spousal beneficiary, the distribution options mirror the same as inheriting a traditional IRA. The only difference is Roth IRA distributions are not subject to taxation.

Beneficiary of Life Insurance

Life insurance proceeds are considered tax-free to the beneficiary and are not reported as gross income. However, any interest received or accrued is considered taxable and is reported like any other interest received.

Beneficiary of a Nonqualified Annuity

Nonqualified annuities are considered tax-deferred investment vehicles that allow the owners to designate a beneficiary. Upon the death of the owner, the beneficiary may be liable for any taxes on the death benefit. Unlike life insurance, annuity death benefits are taxed as ordinary income on any gains above the original investment amount. For example, if the original account owner purchased an annuity for $100,000 and then passed away when the value was worth $150,000, the gain of $50,000 is taxed as ordinary income to the beneficiary.

Also your remark on Jews of today, be it Judaism based denomination is is very broken. I have knowledge in that field also, but the focus is solely on Fearon, Entities of Trust and funds with said owners and the like.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

(Do you have interest to know is such money made in way that no one was damaged?)?

Granted how a beneficiary at times is unaware of what people do with a trust and or fund, things of such is evident, only the owner knows very well of what they do with their money, not the ones they donated to. Which was the case with all facts pointing to the Riley Trust where it is revealed of who the real owner is.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How many people working for one dollar per day or less, for few cents, in one part of a world??? And in different part of the world  other people buy cheap products because of such system? And what is LEGITIMATE in that? Only laws that was product of injustice.

Nowhere have I stated that any working man or woman is one part of the world. Being part of the world requires the intake of Satan's influence itself that contributes to lawless acts and total disrespect to God's Law and the practices of the 1st century church.

As for the cheap product remark, like I said before about lawless acts, how did you miss that one?

That LEGITIMATE is the fact of how the money via donations is being used by the Temple of Jerusalem of where Jesus himself had taught. The practices of how money is handle and or used being vastly different from the hypocrites known as Pharisees and the Scribes. But clearly you do not understand a shred of what the passage is conveying, thus prompt your confusion of said massages and I chose them on purpose just to see if you understood it or not, but luckily you have someone such as myself to explain it for you, ALSO the fact that you use Biblehub, that alone could explain it to you by the number of commentaries expressed on that specific passage alone.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

AND ALL THIS WAS IN DOMAIN OF WHO OWNS THE MONEY :)))))))

Not really because in the original discussion was regarding who is the owner of what said money originates from. The claim by Fearon and his supports makes mention of Watchtower owning said entities (spreading of conspiracy) when facts and information points to them solely being a beneficiary, not the actual owner. As well a bit of Pearl's exegesis on using passages of the Bible, being used to justify a conspiracy that is found out to be 100% false. The owner in question, being Ms. Riley herself, chose to donate the amount of money to the religious group, secondary connections to Riley have donated money to other religious groups, since such were listed in connection with said owner and not the beneficiary.

Trying to make claim that the faith is an owner of said trust and or fund or the idea that somehow the faith is a sponsor and racks in money from a sporting event, which has proven to also be false, is merely secondary.

This also goes with your claims. You try to equal a Business Number and ID via links when if one links, it points to a Registry of parties added into the database and said database is solely in Australia and not globally as you allude to. In fact, there are registries out there that bear the same structural database as others, perhaps some far better than others, example would be Barclay's.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I do not care, at the end, is that devil's money or people's money. It is injustice! This is all about injustice, greedy, lies, manipulation ... 

I guess according to you it is an injustice that somehow the Devil's money allows you to be on the internet, for you make the based logic that money is a product of the devil when the bible does not say so, only you have. If we are to apply your logic on how you view things based on man's understanding of which you make application of.

Why are you using the internet, if everything in this world is of Satan, including the ISP provider, thus giving you access to the internet? The internet is of the devil, no?

Injustice? Hypocritical? Or perhaps the birds that fly near your home somehow surpassed human intellect and manage to provide you said internet on their own over than of what man has brought forth?

You fail to also see the fact that some things we use, buy and sell can be a blessing and or a curse at times, example the internet, one can read the Bible over the internet while someone else shops online, another can be looking to learn a math and or vocabulary problem for school, another guy who plays video games over the internet and lastly you have the type of persons who use the internet to seek out and divulge him in brazen practices, others who use the internet for fornication while some use said internet for crime, most of us are no stranger to what the dark web is. This equals to that of money itself, as with other things, so it is absurd to say money is a product of Satan, moreover, you have defeated your own purpose to claim in regards of those who are wealth and or not wealth on parts of the world.

You really have to think for yourself and look at what you are saying and what you are trying to say. Because right now all I see is a confused man, I really do not see how you got duped into the whole Glasgow thing and for that is shows.

Other than that, the information I provided from the bible in page 2 is accurate on all things money,

since the use of money by Jesus and his disciples was already expressed here on page 3. Perhaps this time you apply context instead doing otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please, what in JW theology exist that you do not support?

You clearly didn't get what I have stated, but it is no surprise you are shifting things around, as seen in recent responses.

I said the following: No, but I am very well aware of their Christology and the only reason I speak of them is because there is many misconceptions and things said of them that can and will be addressed

Christology is the field of study within Christian theology itself, which is primarily concerned with the ontology and person of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels Accounts and the Epistles shown in the Greek the New Testament. The ontology and person of Jesus in conjunction with his relationship with that of God the Father. Christology is concerned with the details of Jesus' ministry, his acts and teachings, to arrive at a clearer understanding of who he is in his person, and his role in salvation. The views of Paul the Apostle provided a major component of the Christology of the Apostolic Age. To some extend at times the levels reach to based Apostolic Christology. This also connects with Exegesis and Hermeneutics in regards to Theological studies of both scripture and history of said text.

Such also falls in line with the study of religion, their theology, practices, beliefs in regards to the teachings and or the Church, of which the foundation itself is the Christ.

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, I studied Restorationism and Non-Trinitarianism among most, excluding my studies on Judaism, Islam, and a list of others that are not part of the Abrahamic faiths and for various reasons I have done this for nearly 2 decades despite me myself being a Non-Trinitarian Christain, for in how I was brought up is to understand where people are coming from and their conclusions. The Jehovah's Witnesses at their core are Restorationism, in a sense, primitive Christianity that has nothing to do  with mainstream Christianity that is not applying what the early church has done, but of what we see as the end result of the Council itself. This is a known fact even before they became Bible Students because over the centuries there have been Restorationist before the Movement was even executed. Such is traced by tot the early church and the Apostolic Age.

Therefore, those who adhere to the early church and its teachings and practices, I tend to have a focused study of them, and knowing what I know, people will slander and or make lies of such in order to push an accrused agenda, therefore the reason I o what I do.

If someone says a Sunni or a Shia teaches that killing is necessary for salvation, I will refute. If someone says Jesus is God, I will refute. If someone says a JW has guns kept in a church and has poisons ready to use on other JWs, I will refute. If someone says a faith got money from a sporting event, I will refute. If someone says that our Church Father's believed in something else other than the truth itself, I will refute. If someone tries to justify false and or forged bible verses that were not in the original manuscripts and or not in respects to the Strong's, I will refute. In the end it is not about agreeing and or disagreeing, it is about correcting the wrongs and speaking up in the face of misconceptions.

And at times my explanations could be long, and the person you have to thank for that can be seen in the Bible Discussion part of the forum since the both of use were speaking of Church Fathers and about the word Worship.

Out of among many things, the only plague I am in a total crusade against is mainstream Christendom and New Agers, both of which who have dismantled what the first church has established. Those who make a defense on what is seen as accursed, thus a prompt application of Galatians 1:1-11 is due. I am but one person, but since the craziness that took place mid 2015 and onward, people, like me, will refute the accursed and correct the lies and or wrongs people say of others the biggest enemy of them all it Babylon itself, which is clearly in the works since the early 2000s, not counting the whole 1920s Bailey thing for the gathering of religious leaders have not begun until the early 2000s. That being said, I am able to see clearly who is who, who is of Babylon, ho is not, who can easily be mislead by her, who is on the fence and or confused, and most of the time, the unaware ones are the one easily taken, thus my stance is clear and it is a diamond based defense because I am able to prepare myself for what is to come, this also goes in conjunction with my 100% neutrality to any man who attempts to and or is close to doing the same as the early church.

And it is clear to me you yourself is not aware of the present danger of things, mainly to how you based on your logic into the text rather than what the bible professes.

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9 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Other than that, I still await on your response to your claim: "Because money is a product of Satan has the Bible indicates." ~ Srecko Sostar (July 18, 2018)

Your thoughts answer on your expectation: 

-"..the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection."

-"That being said, it is no question that Satan’s influence on people and their actions is ever so evident,.."

If God inspired human for good deeds, i am sure you believe in this premise, then satan "influence", your word "influence", or bad inspiration on people is quite logical reasoning how he, devil is very possible source of why human invented and using money. But as i said, this is my understanding  on my way of reading Bible. And because i made my conclusion on this i have no obligation to you or anyone else to "justifies" why i came to this conclusion. That is my reasoning, true or false. Will i change that or not is matter of "inspiration" that will or will not came from "higher source". :))) 

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40 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Your thoughts answer on your expectation: 

-"..the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection."

And yet we see play out in the Bible that because of man's imperfection Satan's influence is evident. Example is the Jews who were clearly included by Satan as seen in both John 8 and 10. So explain how they are my thoughts when the Bible speaks of such, mainly in terms of cross-references of corruptible man?

40 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

-"That being said, it is no question that Satan’s influence on people and their actions is ever so evident,.."

Which is indeed truth, as seen in the Bible. Man commits acts of lawlessness and being accepting of brazen conduct and many other things.

40 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If God inspired human for good deeds, i am sure you believe in this premise, then satan "influence", your word "influence", or bad inspiration on people is quite logical reasoning how he, devil is very possible source of why human invented and using money. But as i said, this is my understanding  on my way of reading Bible.

Yes, God inspires the good works and indeed of his people, there is no question about that, this goes for good conduct and of what God approves in all goodness. But what you fail to see even among good folk, there are bad people also who do vile things, some of which who do these things knowingly, thus being of influence of the devil and not of God. Like I said about in the John, the Jews who knew the Law being influenced by Satan who is their Father, hence why the confrontation with Jesus as seen in John 10 turned out the way they did - this is but one of many examples. So explain to me how my word "influence" is of my own understanding when clearly we see the Bible speaks of what I have mention? 

That is a weak remark, bad influence the cause of people creating money in the first place? So what is your say on God's approval of money granted that you make the claim that you cannot prove money is a product of Satan? Perhaps you see the Widow of whom Jesus gave praise to influenced by Satan because she had a few pieces of money to put in a Treasury Chest? Or perhaps Jesus himself who gave moneybags to his followers, we know what happen with one moneybag with someone who was wicked out among the 12 for not realizing a lover a money was a thief to begin with?

Well you are going to have to read the Bible for context and more understanding because the based logic you are applying to scripture is somewhat lacking and or utter confusion.

If we are to agree with you and say money is a product of Satan, why must we also come to contradiction of Jesus, his followers and or the likes of others? Before money there was the bartering system, perhaps that being the predecessor of money to be of Satan as well?

You clearly ignored what was addressed in page 2.

To be short and sweet: Money is a currency to be used to provide and care, it can be used for good things in a way of God's approval, on the other side of the spectrum, there are lovers of money, who commit acts of lawless acts, and I will quote you "unrighteous riches". You cannot point 2 groups as being evil for using money when only one side is clearly the culprit.

Therefore, it can be said here that the response you made that the Bible indicates money is a product of Satan is utterly false. If the Bible makes an indication, you would have brought it up, for it was that easy to bring up Matthew 17:24 (Matthew 17:24-27  to understand full context of passage and understanding of Jewish Law), by verse only, surely the exact indication of claim made by you would have been brought up long before - in this case unfounded.

Also if that were the case, you would have known the difference of accepting a truth and or lie, I showed to you that you accepted a lie and you made the correction and removed the post on your own. This goes for my explanation of inspired and uninspired text I said to you before and the whole religious rights protection discussion, and other things. Better to know and do the research than accept a conspiracy of what others have told you.

What is also missed is the fact no mention of what Jesus said in this verse, Mark 12:17.

Other than that, I will not hold an unfounded claim against you, just as I have with the Glasgow remark you made to which you removed here and the old Dec. 2017 topic, but remember, even though you removed it, it is still there.

That being said because with you things tend to derail into other things, in regards to Trust and Beneficiaries, there prove of a beneficiary, in this regard, The Watchtower, being the owner of a Trust, Riley Trust, when the only owner itself is the one mention, the person and or entity that has chosen the Watchtower as a beneficiary. It is also known that said trust make donations to such groups who are seen as Beneficiaries, therefore, donations to such are made. It is also known as to what the Riley Trust has been involved in, majority of it being of gas and oil products with money set aside to donate to a Beneficiary of their choosing.

Plus it is known that the Riley Trust is in connection with section Nonprofit Tax Code 501 (c) (3).

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24 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I can say right now that any translation can be used, but regardless, such information is not found, to change the matter into saying Satan is the god of this world, has nothing to do with the claim of your saying that money is a product of Satan.

Sorry but in same logic you provide your claims as is quoted:

"Now, the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection. There is war, sickness, death, and all kinds of violence. Satan’s influence is also responsible for the twisting of biblical teachings and or doctrines that is not of early church origin, the teaching that ...."

HOW is possible that named things as war, sickness, death.... you put under main title "the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection. There is ......"

1. Is there war, sickness, death.... because of man's imperfection?

2. Is war, sickness, death.... products of Satan''s exploitation of man's imperfection?

3. Is war, sickness, death .... existing because of satan's influence?

Who making wars? People or ....1.man's imperfection; 2.Satan''s exploitation of man's imperfection; 3.satan's influence ??  would it be a war if people were perfect ??? Does perfection of people is guarantee how wars would never be possible? 

 

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23 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

such ones are lovers of money and thus making money master over them

Would someone love the money if money would not exist? Would someone be in position to serve  to money, would money be master over him,  if money would not exist? 

Delete money from human life and you will be solve two problems that Bible said is burden in people's life. No money= less devil's influence on man :))))) 

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17 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

HOW is possible that named things as war, sickness, death.... you put under main title "the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection. There is ......"

1. Is there war, sickness, death.... because of man's imperfection?

2. Is war, sickness, death.... products of Satan''s exploitation of man's imperfection?

3. Is war, sickness, death .... existing because of satan's influence?

Are you serious? If you are forgetting we are imperfect because of what our first father and mother had done, they were disobedient and it is known as to who played a part in their disobedience. Stuff like this came about because of it, hence why we all inherit sin,men has killed, men has caused problems and or oppress other men, men have corrupted other men, the list goes on.

So I ask you to prove that it is my understanding vs. the Bible, something of which cannot be done because you will simply make claim to the same thing.

  • [1] War, sickness and Death came about due to our inheritance of Sin, for in the days before Adam and Eve disobeyed God such things was unheard of and did not exist. Stuff like this came about afterwards, we see a spike in violence, people being sick and succumbing to death. Adam and Eve were not subjected to death but them eating from the Tree of Knowledge resulted in such, it also resulted in God putting to Cherubs/Angels to guard the Tree of Life prior to kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, and from there they had to make use of cultivating the earth itself and eventually grow old and die off from natural causes, and the children suffer the same faith, thus it can be said that man is corruptible/moral. At the start of it all, the cause for man to dwell in imperfection was Satan the Devil, when he influenced Eve about the Tree God did not allow them to eat from, eventually she got Adam on board and Adam followed because he really loved Eve.
  • [2] It is, mainly if you get the gist of what is said in point one. Man is imperfect and we only became imperfect and inherit sin for an obvious reason, thus we are born sinners no matter how you paint it. Satan can influence man to do things that is not of any good, some who are influenced, do so knowingly. This also goes for other sons of God also, who later became demons.
  • [3] Technically already address and is very evident. What do you think imperfection means?
26 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who making wars? People or ....1.man's imperfection; 2.Satan''s exploitation of man's imperfection; 3.satan's influence ??  would it be a war if people were perfect ??? Does perfection of people is guarantee how wars would never be possible? 

People make wars and people are imperfect and go into war for ill desires. Example of what we see today is Israel, for they do not want Iran to go into Syria and will do vile things to provoke war in order to do so, hence the false flags months ago. Satan has exploited man because they are imperfect, especially those who are up to no good.

Buddy if we are perfect, that would be great, but all men are imperfect, we inherit what Adam and Eve had succumb to, for we had been imperfect since the day they were expelled from the Garden.

 

My only question to you is, did you not read the Hebrew Old Testament???

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29 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Would someone love the money if money would not exist? Would someone be in position to serve  to money, would money be master over him,  if money would not exist? 

But then you have the predecessor of money, The Bartering system, the trading of goods for X amount of this or that, a Y of this and a Z of that, so to speak. Before the time money came into use, there was this system, which involved the trading of said goods, which included gold and silver, cloth, etc.

It is very evident in Abraham's Day if you read the passage.

29 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Delete money from human life and you will be solve two problems that Bible said is burden in people's life. No money= less devil's influence on man :))))) 

Bartering system.

So I ask you, a Widow has money, she is influenced despite being praised by Jesus? I believe I asked you this before but you are not trying to answer that question - this is understandable because the contradictions is seen.

Also delete money? You'd have to remove the Bartering System as well, but then the break down of civilization you would have to explain for it would be not possible to get something and or give. The logic of which you express here sort of makes no sense.

So I ask you this: remove money, remove the bartering system, what of it then? Man is still imperfect and what do you think will happen if they cannot get want they want, albeit, all men?

 

Also I told you twice, now 3 times, I made an explanation of money lovers and use of money by means of God's approval on page 2 with solely using the bible itself in respects to biblical hermeneutics.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You clearly didn't get what I have stated, but it is no surprise you are shifting things around, as seen in recent responses.

I said the following: No, but I am very well aware of their Christology and the only reason I speak of them is because there is many misconceptions and things said of them that can and will be addressed

Christology is the field of study within Christian theology itself, which is primarily concerned with the ontology and person of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels Accounts and the Epistles shown in the Greek the New Testament. The ontology and person of Jesus in conjunction with his relationship with that of God the Father. Christology is concerned with the details of Jesus' ministry, his acts and teachings, to arrive at a clearer understanding of who he is in his person, and his role in salvation. The views of Paul the Apostle provided a major component of the Christology of the Apostolic Age. To some extend at times the levels reach to based Apostolic Christology. This also connects with Exegesis and Hermeneutics in regards to Theological studies of both scripture and history of said text.

Such also falls in line with the study of religion, their theology, practices, beliefs in regards to the teachings and or the Church, of which the foundation itself is the Christ.

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, I studied Restorationism and Non-Trinitarianism among most, excluding my studies on Judaism, Islam, and a list of others that are not part of the Abrahamic faiths and for various reasons I have done this for nearly 2 decades despite me myself being a Non-Trinitarian Christain, for in how I was brought up is to understand where people are coming from and their conclusions. The Jehovah's Witnesses at their core are Restorationism, in a sense, primitive Christianity that has nothing to do  with mainstream Christianity that is not applying what the early church has done, but of what we see as the end result of the Council itself. This is a known fact even before they became Bible Students because over the centuries there have been Restorationist before the Movement was even executed. Such is traced by tot the early church and the Apostolic Age.

Therefore, those who adhere to the early church and its teachings and practices, I tend to have a focused study of them, and knowing what I know, people will slander and or make lies of such in order to push an accrused agenda, therefore the reason I o what I do.

If someone says a Sunni or a Shia teaches that killing is necessary for salvation, I will refute. If someone says Jesus is God, I will refute. If someone says a JW has guns kept in a church and has poisons ready to use on other JWs, I will refute. If someone says a faith got money from a sporting event, I will refute. If someone says that our Church Father's believed in something else other than the truth itself, I will refute. If someone tries to justify false and or forged bible verses that were not in the original manuscripts and or not in respects to the Strong's, I will refute. In the end it is not about agreeing and or disagreeing, it is about correcting the wrongs and speaking up in the face of misconceptions.

And at times my explanations could be long, and the person you have to thank for that can be seen in the Bible Discussion part of the forum since the both of use were speaking of Church Fathers and about the word Worship.

Out of among many things, the only plague I am in a total crusade against is mainstream Christendom and New Agers, both of which who have dismantled what the first church has established. Those who make a defense on what is seen as accursed, thus a prompt application of Galatians 1:1-11 is due. I am but one person, but since the craziness that took place mid 2015 and onward, people, like me, will refute the accursed and correct the lies and or wrongs people say of others the biggest enemy of them all it Babylon itself, which is clearly in the works since the early 2000s, not counting the whole 1920s Bailey thing for the gathering of religious leaders have not begun until the early 2000s. That being said, I am able to see clearly who is who, who is of Babylon, ho is not, who can easily be mislead by her, who is on the fence and or confused, and most of the time, the unaware ones are the one easily taken, thus my stance is clear and it is a diamond based defense because I am able to prepare myself for what is to come, this also goes in conjunction with my 100% neutrality to any man who attempts to and or is close to doing the same as the early church.

And it is clear to me you yourself is not aware of the present danger of things, mainly to how you based on your logic into the text rather than what the bible professes.

thanks for response. May i reformulate my question: What would you correct in JW theology?

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@Srecko Sostar Of what has been expressed has already been address in my previous response, I do not see why there is a need to ask of such again when it amounts to the same thing, granted you want people to answer you but you never answer them. For instance, in their Christology, as with Restoration and Non-Trinitarian counterparts, they do not believe in a Triune God, they do not believe Jesus to be God and such minorities are often said to be deniers of Jesus because they do not believe he is God. The truth of the matter is in further study and tracing back to our Apostolic brothers and sisters, what they believe, what others like them believe, me included, is that the Trinity as well as Modalisim is not biblical, thus being a heresy, which turns the tables on claims made by those who spread misconception and or lies when the truth itself regarding Jesus Christ is made known. Others profess that same-sex relations and or marriage should be accepted by such ones, but that is not in their Christology, let alone, that is not a thing that would cross the mind of the early church and or those who try to follow it, as for the mainstream Christians, they make a justification to say God is approving same-sex marriage and or relations even going as far as to twist law or use translations that do not respect the Strong's to prove it, which was brought up in the Barker vs Gay couple case some days ago. In this sense, the bible says to respect all man, but not to dwell in their conduct that who result in a negative effect and or outcome in terms of God's Law

Another thing is they do not believe God can die, but mainstream Christendom teaches God can die, the truth of the matter to put this error to rest is the fact that the Bible makes it clear the Invisible Father is incorruptible, in a simple sense, Immortal, for God is the life giver and source of life itself who gave life to all who roam in the heaven and on earth, he even gave life to his Son, Jesus when he was crucified.

The bottom-line is, anyone who's Christology emulates that of the Early Church and what our early brothers and sisters have done, it is absurd to make claims of such and say they are not like the mainstream Christians, for the reality is, they are not of the mainstream and follow the teachings of the church. As I have said before, if Restorationist and other Non-Trinitarians follow things that is not of the church than that in itself would be a BIG problem.

Therefore, when it comes to the studies of Christology, even to an Apostolic sense, I look for truth in the midst of errors some people tend to bring up among the mainstream.

At the same time I remain in total neutrality because I know any misstep can cause judgement in front of the white throne so I am not quick to make accusations like some people here and or accepting of it, even to the point of using verses for the wrong reasons to make a justification of accusation. But rather, I look for the truth of the matter and see things for myself, look into both sides.

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9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

and there we see a widow making an offering to which Jesus gave her praise because she has donated as seen in verse 42,

Is there some Bible report about how Jesus and apostles doing the same, giving donation money in temple box? 

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