Jump to content
World Forum

Recommended Posts

29 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Would someone love the money if money would not exist? Would someone be in position to serve  to money, would money be master over him,  if money would not exist? 

But then you have the predecessor of money, The Bartering system, the trading of goods for X amount of this or that, a Y of this and a Z of that, so to speak. Before the time money came into use, there was this system, which involved the trading of said goods, which included gold and silver, cloth, etc.

It is very evident in Abraham's Day if you read the passage.

29 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Delete money from human life and you will be solve two problems that Bible said is burden in people's life. No money= less devil's influence on man :))))) 

Bartering system.

So I ask you, a Widow has money, she is influenced despite being praised by Jesus? I believe I asked you this before but you are not trying to answer that question - this is understandable because the contradictions is seen.

Also delete money? You'd have to remove the Bartering System as well, but then the break down of civilization you would have to explain for it would be not possible to get something and or give. The logic of which you express here sort of makes no sense.

So I ask you this: remove money, remove the bartering system, what of it then? Man is still imperfect and what do you think will happen if they cannot get want they want, albeit, all men?

 

Also I told you twice, now 3 times, I made an explanation of money lovers and use of money by means of God's approval on page 2 with solely using the bible itself in respects to biblical hermeneutics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You clearly didn't get what I have stated, but it is no surprise you are shifting things around, as seen in recent responses.

I said the following: No, but I am very well aware of their Christology and the only reason I speak of them is because there is many misconceptions and things said of them that can and will be addressed

Christology is the field of study within Christian theology itself, which is primarily concerned with the ontology and person of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels Accounts and the Epistles shown in the Greek the New Testament. The ontology and person of Jesus in conjunction with his relationship with that of God the Father. Christology is concerned with the details of Jesus' ministry, his acts and teachings, to arrive at a clearer understanding of who he is in his person, and his role in salvation. The views of Paul the Apostle provided a major component of the Christology of the Apostolic Age. To some extend at times the levels reach to based Apostolic Christology. This also connects with Exegesis and Hermeneutics in regards to Theological studies of both scripture and history of said text.

Such also falls in line with the study of religion, their theology, practices, beliefs in regards to the teachings and or the Church, of which the foundation itself is the Christ.

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, I studied Restorationism and Non-Trinitarianism among most, excluding my studies on Judaism, Islam, and a list of others that are not part of the Abrahamic faiths and for various reasons I have done this for nearly 2 decades despite me myself being a Non-Trinitarian Christain, for in how I was brought up is to understand where people are coming from and their conclusions. The Jehovah's Witnesses at their core are Restorationism, in a sense, primitive Christianity that has nothing to do  with mainstream Christianity that is not applying what the early church has done, but of what we see as the end result of the Council itself. This is a known fact even before they became Bible Students because over the centuries there have been Restorationist before the Movement was even executed. Such is traced by tot the early church and the Apostolic Age.

Therefore, those who adhere to the early church and its teachings and practices, I tend to have a focused study of them, and knowing what I know, people will slander and or make lies of such in order to push an accrused agenda, therefore the reason I o what I do.

If someone says a Sunni or a Shia teaches that killing is necessary for salvation, I will refute. If someone says Jesus is God, I will refute. If someone says a JW has guns kept in a church and has poisons ready to use on other JWs, I will refute. If someone says a faith got money from a sporting event, I will refute. If someone says that our Church Father's believed in something else other than the truth itself, I will refute. If someone tries to justify false and or forged bible verses that were not in the original manuscripts and or not in respects to the Strong's, I will refute. In the end it is not about agreeing and or disagreeing, it is about correcting the wrongs and speaking up in the face of misconceptions.

And at times my explanations could be long, and the person you have to thank for that can be seen in the Bible Discussion part of the forum since the both of use were speaking of Church Fathers and about the word Worship.

Out of among many things, the only plague I am in a total crusade against is mainstream Christendom and New Agers, both of which who have dismantled what the first church has established. Those who make a defense on what is seen as accursed, thus a prompt application of Galatians 1:1-11 is due. I am but one person, but since the craziness that took place mid 2015 and onward, people, like me, will refute the accursed and correct the lies and or wrongs people say of others the biggest enemy of them all it Babylon itself, which is clearly in the works since the early 2000s, not counting the whole 1920s Bailey thing for the gathering of religious leaders have not begun until the early 2000s. That being said, I am able to see clearly who is who, who is of Babylon, ho is not, who can easily be mislead by her, who is on the fence and or confused, and most of the time, the unaware ones are the one easily taken, thus my stance is clear and it is a diamond based defense because I am able to prepare myself for what is to come, this also goes in conjunction with my 100% neutrality to any man who attempts to and or is close to doing the same as the early church.

And it is clear to me you yourself is not aware of the present danger of things, mainly to how you based on your logic into the text rather than what the bible professes.

thanks for response. May i reformulate my question: What would you correct in JW theology?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Srecko Sostar Of what has been expressed has already been address in my previous response, I do not see why there is a need to ask of such again when it amounts to the same thing, granted you want people to answer you but you never answer them. For instance, in their Christology, as with Restoration and Non-Trinitarian counterparts, they do not believe in a Triune God, they do not believe Jesus to be God and such minorities are often said to be deniers of Jesus because they do not believe he is God. The truth of the matter is in further study and tracing back to our Apostolic brothers and sisters, what they believe, what others like them believe, me included, is that the Trinity as well as Modalisim is not biblical, thus being a heresy, which turns the tables on claims made by those who spread misconception and or lies when the truth itself regarding Jesus Christ is made known. Others profess that same-sex relations and or marriage should be accepted by such ones, but that is not in their Christology, let alone, that is not a thing that would cross the mind of the early church and or those who try to follow it, as for the mainstream Christians, they make a justification to say God is approving same-sex marriage and or relations even going as far as to twist law or use translations that do not respect the Strong's to prove it, which was brought up in the Barker vs Gay couple case some days ago. In this sense, the bible says to respect all man, but not to dwell in their conduct that who result in a negative effect and or outcome in terms of God's Law

Another thing is they do not believe God can die, but mainstream Christendom teaches God can die, the truth of the matter to put this error to rest is the fact that the Bible makes it clear the Invisible Father is incorruptible, in a simple sense, Immortal, for God is the life giver and source of life itself who gave life to all who roam in the heaven and on earth, he even gave life to his Son, Jesus when he was crucified.

The bottom-line is, anyone who's Christology emulates that of the Early Church and what our early brothers and sisters have done, it is absurd to make claims of such and say they are not like the mainstream Christians, for the reality is, they are not of the mainstream and follow the teachings of the church. As I have said before, if Restorationist and other Non-Trinitarians follow things that is not of the church than that in itself would be a BIG problem.

Therefore, when it comes to the studies of Christology, even to an Apostolic sense, I look for truth in the midst of errors some people tend to bring up among the mainstream.

At the same time I remain in total neutrality because I know any misstep can cause judgement in front of the white throne so I am not quick to make accusations like some people here and or accepting of it, even to the point of using verses for the wrong reasons to make a justification of accusation. But rather, I look for the truth of the matter and see things for myself, look into both sides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

and there we see a widow making an offering to which Jesus gave her praise because she has donated as seen in verse 42,

Is there some Bible report about how Jesus and apostles doing the same, giving donation money in temple box? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

War, sickness and Death came about due to our inheritance of Sin...

At the start of it all, the cause for man to dwell in imperfection was Satan the Devil,...

Satan can influence man to do things that is not of any good, ...

.... and now back to "money issue" with your upper thoughts as light that bring clarification to me. :) 

Money is product due to our inheritance of Sin...

Money is product because man dwell in imperfection   and the cause for man to dwell in imperfection was Satan the Devil

Money is product because Satan can influence man to do things that is not of any good

 

Well who standing in the background, behind of human who do things that is not of any good?

Well who stand in the background, behind  of money?

:))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

At the same time I remain in total neutrality

Dear SM no one is neutral :) , even if you consider self as neutral, at specific moment of situation you will put yourself on some side, actively or passively.

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I do not see why there is a need to ask of such again

My need is in that because i see you read a lot and think a lot. So, as you are man of a book and deep thinking it is quite normal how you might have conclusions and can describe WTJWorg in light of your understanding of what Bible say on religious institutions around the World. Question is not complicated and you are able, because of your great knowledge on issue, to give respond on such ask.

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

you want people to answer you but you never answer them.

I can not answer on all your question because i might do not know answer, (or my answer can be wrong, but what? Next day my answer can be right, heheehe) in this moment. But, you see irony? You criticize me how i not answer your question and in same time  you refuse to explain your stand about WT, by saying,  "i am neutral... there is no need to ask me again". :)) Do you support your view of Bible truth or you are supporter of WT? What else, except neutrality keep you from commenting this? Judgmental day? If so, then will be better for all of us to spend life in silence.  

Another think what i would like to say you is this. My perception after our conversations is that you want from other people to prove all what they have said, have to say (their thoughts, beliefs, conclusions, understanding, emotions if you want, etc), with Bible verses. All must be confirmed with some Bible verses, according to your expectation (at least in my case with "devil and money", hehheehe) . That looks to me how you believe, my perception of you, how things that are not written, mentioned in Bible and Bible only, in fact not existing in humans World, on Earth. Things are; material or spiritual or mental or intellectual, someones claims, perceptions, beliefs, teachings, thoughts on something. Famous example of that is in our conversation on my belief how "money is devil product". And because you can not find Bible verse where is written, "Money is from satan", then you strongly claim how this conclusion of mine is wrong, false teaching, not reality, not supported with this or that, by his or him.

Do you want be "fanatical" and claim how all things (material or immaterial) if Bible not mentioned them, not existing and they are not true?  Because with your insisting on Bible verse for proving this or that (what other people say), you have in fact, such irrational need.

Greetings.

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

My only question to you is, did you not read the Hebrew Old Testament???

to escape your objection how i don't answer on your question. Yes i did read OT. :))

19 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Are you serious? If you are forgetting we are imperfect because of what our first father and mother had done

You have explained before how all bad in the human today is because we are imperfect. And that we are imperfect because of Sin (Adam and Eve) If we sinning because we are IMPERFECT, then Adam and Eve have made sin because they are PERFECT? Mr devil made also sin not as imperfect but as perfect son of God.

And still you want from  me, the imperfect man, to prove you all with a Bible? :))))     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So I ask you, a Widow has money, she is influenced despite being praised by Jesus? I believe I asked you this before but you are not trying to answer that question - this is understandable because the contradictions is seen.

You explain already how satan making influence on imperfect, sinful human. What else need explanation. Who influenced Widow, how should i know, because no bible verse, as to my knowledge, giving direct answer on this question. I am sure that you would know Bible verse if such exist.

Jesus made commentary on Widow act of putting all money she have. He not made any comment on why she put all her money. Jesus only established few facts; - that she is very poor and how other people who donate were very rich, and by his opinion she gave more then rich people because she gave all she had, and as result she had done, she had no money for food or drink.

Bible text said nothing that Jesus recommended such acting to his disciples and how all who follow Jesus teachings today must doing the same - to give last penny to Church.  - my answer :)) ------ or maybe i do not see  full context :))))

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They all gave out of their wealth;

Maybe they actually gave out of hers: Luke 20:47.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

Maybe they actually gave out of hers: Luke 20:47.

For sure, i agree on that. You made very good context of Bible verses :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is there some Bible report about how Jesus and apostles doing the same, giving donation money in temple box? 

You’ve made only a quote to verse 42, so how does that help your resolve? The Widow’s Mite passage is in regards to those making contributions to the Temple of Jerusalem, for Jesus gave praise to her because what she donated to be greater than that of the wealthy, furthermore, The Temple itself is the main base of operation of Jesus and his Disciples at the time. If you have forgotten I stated several passages in regards to Jesus’ working regards to the gospel, hence why I made brief summary of each passage as well as making known of a passage you refuse to make acknowledgment of in terms of context. If you have not noticed, I spoke of the passage in full to which you thought at verse met nothing.

Jesus and his Disciples not only had replacement sandals at the time, they had knapsacks, such as food pouches and moneybags, for in some of their travels such was necessary because traveling on foot is a daunting task, granted if you are aware of the amount of time it takes from point A to B, city to city, village to village, etc.

It is also mentioned, as in my previous comment of Temple Tax, which is something totally different from making free will offerings via treasury chest, which amounts to not even you being able to understand the passage, hence not making the application. In the early days of Jesus’ ministry, there were religious leaders that were testing Jesus, not realizing who he is and they knew Simon Peter’s affiliation with him, and we see the lesson of that passage that God provides, which resulted in payment of both Peter and Jesus, despite the fact that Jesus, who is of the Father’s House, being exempt. You also fail to see that Simon Peter was the earliest of Jesus’ Disciples.

Lastly, I would mention the whole passage about Judas, despite him being a thief, Jesus gave him a moneybag to watch over and we know what took place from there. This I will address somewhere below in full colored text.

That being said, the main source of their moneybag derive from the Temples and Synagogues that has well over a dozen treasury chests and a main one where all funds are put into, said money is used for the Temple, for the community of said Temple, to feed the poor, to provide for the ministry, and a list of other things. Other things, however, were given out of hospitality and the like.

I really do not see what you are not getting and or not understanding.

How else you think they were being kept up in the ministry? How do you think they fed the poor and helped them? How do you think they maintained the Temple upon a list of other things? Surely the Treasury Chest/Boxes were not for show, mainly with how big the Temple was and how many boxes were present in the walls of the Temple.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

.... and now back to "money issue"

Back to money issue? I concur, friend, if you have forgotten, this topic is of several things, Rick Fearon and the conspiracy crowd, Pearl, Trust and Funds in regards to money use and handling, misapplication of scripture to use against people and make claim to them being owner of something when in reality they are merely beneficiaries.

We only dwell into secondary things because of you bringing up things that leads into something else, i.e. Glasgow of which you made claim to and believe only to be proven as a lie, in fact, the video you posted (your post has been saved) defeats your own claim. You bring up Business Number lists as prove of something only to result in being known as a Registry of both education, financial and or religious institutions, you make claim as this is prove of something, but it is not and merely a registry and solely based in Australia.

Granted I used to work with Registry based frameworks before, I can spot this without really making much of an effort.

But anything to get me to response, yeah?

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

with your upper thoughts as light that bring clarification to me. :) 

My upper thoughts as light? You couldn’t even make any proof of such is of my own thoughts being integrated into what I say when everything said and expressed is of the Bible and nothing but, in addition to Christian history, manuscripts, the Greek/Hebrew language, etc. and outside of that actual fact based on careful research and or anything my sources have professed, should a situation that calls for it, in this case, it is solely the Bible and history of the Jews in addition to information about funds/trusts pertaining to the original argument in conversation with you.

The only time I raised my own concern, twice actually, was when I was discussing with Mr. Butler on this forum a while back in order to ease the situation and bring forth comfort based on my current experience in the matter and it was only that time, but that didn’t turn out so well because the person in question started to make accusations of someone else and it led to two threads with such being expressed, so what you are addressing – is unfounded.

The other time was in regards to Textual Criticism, hence by view of the KJV bible being a negative one and the fact that some out there consider the uninspired as inspired, regardless of who they are, it should be called out, at least one time someone tried to use a typo against me, granted I am a fast-typer and tend not to overlook what I write at times, attempted to make a claim I believe the KJV is 100% true when even before that I was being strict with Textual Criticism, even towards Allen when he mentioned the long version of a specific gospel, let alone nearly 2 decades of being against uninspired text and errors made in the KJV, the very reason I got into Hebrew and Greek to begin with. Moreover, I have given you quite the information on several occasions and even here, but you clearly do not make the application, even when said information originates from manuscripts of the Hebrew Text of which you yourself were not really accepting of it at first.

That being said, I told you this before, and like your other claims – such remains to be seen and what has been seen, as of recently, has been deleted, purposely, for if it had not been mention, such would have remained.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Money is product due to our inheritance of Sin...

You continue to make the claim that money is a product due to inheritance of sin, so where in the bible does it indicates as such when we inherited sin the day Adam and Eve disobeyed and were kicked out of the Garden of Eden? Mind you, money in its earliest stages was the bartering system, trading of goods and resources in number, value, greater, lesser, so you cannot leave that out either, but maintain a focus to solely the successor of the system itself when they are technically two identical fruits of the same tree.

Now, as I have stated, but you keep egging on your own view of money that is a currency used and not what the bible speaks of money itself. That is where you are incorrect, thus the reason as to why I called your response as incorrect.

Money is not the sole cause of men to dwell in imperfection and or the cause of it, the fact that you make that remark just shows you clearly not understand properly what the Bible teaches on such a matter, you clearly do not take into account the events that took place in the Garden of Eden, hence your confusion in this domain shows just as clearly just as one’s reflect on a mirror.

Man has become imperfect due to sin (The Original Sin) and it is a result because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, for originally, both Adam and then Eve were perfect and sinless prior to the original, Ancestral Sin, they didn’t become imperfect due to the second money becoming a currency (money and or the bartering system didn’t come into play until afterwards) because all they had was the Garden of Eden of which they had cultivated and lived in, the free will to dwell in parts of Eden, and later on, they, now imperfect, dwell outside of Eden until they grew old and eventually perished, all the children that Adam and Eve gave life to, all of them inherited sin from their parents, all the way down to this day, to you, to me, and to all here, born sinners, and due to free will, some use said free will to do bad intent with whatever means open to them, hence why I made an accurate response to people who become lovers of money instead of God as well as those who are of God who do good.

So in short:

  • How did we become imperfect? Original Ancestral Sin in the days of Adam and Eve.
  • How do we inherit imperfection? Our first parents were Adam and Eve who had already been kicked out of Eden.
  • Who caused them to sin? Satan the Devil who spoke by means of a snake found in the Garden.
  • How did they sin? Satan the Devil, as the snake, influenced Eve when she was alone, he influenced her by means of deception to have a desire to eat from the Tree of Knowledge (The Tree of Good and Bad), which was in the Garden itself, he even told her she will be like God if she ate from it, knowing good and bad, and we all know what took place from there.
  • Why they were not supposed to eat from the Tree? Because God made such known, and should fruit be taken to eat from said tree, they will surely die. Death is of imperfection because incorruptibility is not corruptibility, hence why man is mortal and succumb to and to taste death.
18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Money is product because man dwell in imperfection   and the cause for man to dwell in imperfection was Satan the Devil

Money is product because Satan can influence man to do things that is not of any good

Well who standing in the background, behind of human who do things that is not of any good?

So by your logic, since I am following:

  • Did money influence man to build the Temple of Jerusalem where Jesus and the others had as a base of operation, only later on for 3,000 persons in said temple built due to money to have the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
  • Was Jesus influenced when he gave out moneybags to even the likes of Judas?
  • Was the Widow influenced when she contributed a small amount of coins vs. all the wealthy persons in to the Temple of Jerusalem, which was only built by means of money because it was said to be very expensive looking?
  • And why would Jesus himself be in the Temple to begin with, sitting near the treasury chest, if the money use to build the temple was a product of Satan and or Jesus giving praise to a Widow?
  • What of the Temple Tax verse (Matthew 17:27) that you appear to show application for, there was a coin in the mouth of a fish, if money was a product of Satan, why would Peter and Jesus use that to pay Temple Tax knowing that money is the root of, as you claim, imperfection?
  • Moreover, why even use that passage and make it a verse of which you abide by when you are clearly contradicting yourself by saying the opposite?

See how that sounds? That sounds silly and it just shows you are still dwelling in utter confusion and or just ignoring the truth itself in this domain.

But according to you, everything is a product of Satan, but for some odd reason the Internet you are using is somehow not a product of Satan. Unless you have some unknown biblical indication as to why money is only of Satan but the Internet itself is excluded, which costs money to both use and operate. Hence I consider such to be hypocritical of your last response vs. your other one:

The fact you mention the Temple Tax verse and I quote: This verse "proving" my view and understanding on Jesus act: -------------- “But so that we may not offend them, go to the sea, cast a hook, and take the first fish you catch. When you open its mouth, you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for you” and Me.

 

You clearly said money is a product of Satan and yet you see here how the Temple Tax was taken care of to, no pun indented; get Peter and Jesus off-the-hook, so to speak. What is the sudden difference between this coin and other coin(s) used when both are a source of currency?

All that aside,

Imperfection didn’t begin when money came into the world (granted it is wise to consider what money was made out of, which came of the earth itself), it was the original sin that caused imperfection and coupled with our free will, Satan was/is able to exploit people and or influence them once he is able to get his hands on them. An example would be like Judas Iscariot:

Quote

 

Jesus in fact, gave him a moneybag (John 13:29), but unlike the others, Judas was known to be a thief (John 12:6). Judas, after getting rebuked by Jesus, he was later influenced by Satan, for the Devil had entered into him (Luke 22:3) and Jesus was already knew that down the road, one of the 12 is going to betray him, and it turned out to be Judas – obviously (John 13:18-30, see Ps. 41:1-13, Mt. 26:17-25, Mk. 14:12-21, Lk. 22:7-13). It is also known Judas, one of the 12 at the time was also a slanderer (John 6:70) and makes bargains with those who are clearly enemies of Jesus, even those who seek to kill him. So clearly the disciples benefited from money bags, all of them are not bad expect one who is considered to be a thief, granted that we know where the money came from, and only one among them is clearly a lover of money for the very reason he didn’t really care about teachings and helping the poor, only cared about getting a few pieces of coin from the moneybag the group was in possession of, for instance, Judas sold out Jesus for a couple pieces of silver and went on his way and eventually committed suicide. Prior to his suicide, on the day of Jesus’ arrest, Judas arrived by leading a large mob armed with weapons. He knew where to find Jesus because they had often gone to the Garden of Gethsemane, customarily visited by all of them occasionally. Judas had told the soldiers that he would identify Jesus for them also and he went up to Jesus greeted and kissed him and from there he went on his own way and Jesus had been taken.

Later on, being regretful after learning about the crucifixion, the same pieces of silver Judas received in compromising Jesus' location, which lead to his arrest, later on to his death, Judas tried to return said money; donated the silver to the Temple but was stopped because the pieces of silver was consider the price of blood, since said money was give by those who contributed to Jesus’ capture and eventual death, from there, Judas went on to commit suicide, killing himself via hanging, but the rest is a bit more graphic for it is said his insides and or internal intestines gusted out, for he did use a rope, but it would seem the branch of the tree on which Judas hanged himself was not able to hold the dead weight, therefore it snapped, and what we read in Acts is of what happened (Mt. 27:5 and Acts 1:18). The blood money itself was in contribution to Akeldama (The Field of Blood), the Aramaic name for a place in Jerusalem associated with Judas Iscariot, for it was a place to bury the dead who are deemed foreigners, paid for by religious leaders with the inclusion of the same pieces of silver Judas had before his suicide.

 

With that explanation out of the way money is used by both the good and the bad, money does not influence all men to do bad and or is the root of imperfection, for instance, you accept the situation with Peter and Jesus, they technically used money to cover Temple Tax, it does not make the both of them automatically evil when by the law the tax was paid, Jesus himself was not only exempt because it is His Father’s House, but Jesus was a born Jew, clearly above the age of 20. And it is obvious that Satan was not behind them when the money taken and used and I doubt Satan was behind the fish in the first place that just so happens to end up on a hook out of mere coincidence.

Satan can influence those with greed and or given into such, as well as corruption, again, the same case with Judas for we know he is a thief and didn’t really care for the poor, nor did he care for the ministry and or anything connected to Jesus, all he cared about was the money – therefore, Judas being a lover of money, and we know Satan entered Judas only after the fact Jesus rebuked him. For the other 11 took money to do good while only him, Judas, took the money for himself.

This applies to us in the modern day:

Quote

 

For example: You and I are working with the likes of some man in a corporate facility; let’s say we work for Amazon in the financial and banking branch. The both of us can be doing our jobs well to earn to provide for each of our families, but the other guy in our branch is not only working with us, but he is involved in money gaining schemes and use said money for lawless and brazen conduct of which we have no clue of because he is two-faced, living a double life, this man is driven by greed and his desire for gain more money because he is a lover of money, and with said money who knows what this man can do with it, he can be into drugs, he can be into the market of selling illegal things, service from sex workers, he can be contributing money into gambling and or racketeering schemes, perhaps he could have paid a someone, or the likes of a hit-man to do some misdeeds,  the list goes on, at the same time all 3 of us earn money from the same company, only you and me use said money to provided for our families while the other is using money to dwell in misdeeds and lawless acts, unrighteous riches.

  • Am I influenced by Satan because I use money to care for my family and myself?
  • Are you influenced by Satan because you use money to take care of your family and yourself?
  • Or is it the other guy who influenced by Satan because he uses money for the most vile and craziest things?

 

We are all born sinners, yes, we all have free will, understandable, we are all also imperfect, for last I check, there isn’t a human alive who I exempt from injury and death.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well who stand in the background, behind  of money?

:))

Nobody is standing behind money, lawless acts regarding money is only done by those who have the intent to do bad with said money and do bad to obtain it, hence my response on influence and those being lovers of money.

I told you already, if money is a product of Satan, where in the Bible does it say that? You refuse to answer this for a number of times now and as predicted you will make claim to such again without merit. If it is a product of Satan, why are people seen using it mainly those who follow the teachings, mainly those who are in application of the church Jesus built more than 2,000 years ago are doing? You refuse to answer that also.

We can remove money from the world 100% but now you have the predecessor, The Bartering System which is a form of trading products and or goods, you never made response as to such if that was also removed since it has connect to currency use. What of it then, Srecko? Clearly without such there would be utter chaos and worldwide thievery at a grand scale, for if we cannot get something for it is someone else, it will be stolen and simple to the most grime situations will unfolded due to such. I am pretty sure a thief will not come to you and ask you nicely he is going to take your livestock, he will take it by force, even if it means cutting you down, and since there is no money or bartering, you might end up in a similar situation yourself, hence term, dog eat dog is quite fitting in such a situation, and even to this day there is an area in this world, I will give you a hint, it is a Hispanic country as to which currency from an online fantasy video game has even surpassed them for it is that bad there and the only dollar there is literally used as toilet paper. Why is this so? Corrupt men who run the country.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear SM no one is neutral :) , even if you consider self as neutral, at specific moment of situation you will put yourself on some side, actively or passively.

On the contrary, there are many, many people who are neutral, including me, always have been since I left the islands as a child, and I know of others due to my experience, mainly to places I have been and traveled to. Neutrality in a sense to not falsely accuse and or make some false accusation that holds no proof, hence my response on this topic and as to others in addition to other things. I can make a distinction of who is of Babylon and who is not based on mainstream vs. actual Christendom itself, and those who make the attempt to and or strive to follow actual Christianity compared to those who are too relaxed, lukewarm, ignorant, confused, new aged, or not even making an attempt.

I do not pick sides, though, I speak up when someone speaks of conspiracy and or misconceptions of a belief and or practice, and the main thing I am usually against is those that consider the uninspired and heresy to be true, when in reality it is not as well as the primary core of mainstream Christianity itself which is not biblical – The Trinity. The refutation and fight against the Trinity has increased since mid 2015 and onward, look at the percentage of mainstream Christianity now around the world, people are starting to see who God really is and not what mainstream Christians are teaching of who God is.

If you are forgetting, you were considering the Glasgow incident as legitimate proof, and I, analyzing the information pointed out your so called proof was indeed false, and perhaps you only removed said comment so it would not be mentioned again, no worries, I have the quote here:

Srecko Sostar Quote - July 17th, 2018

Quote

video reveal JWorg in sport and business events, Glasgow 2014. OR UK TV news  REPORTERS WERE LIE?

 

 Among some Scottish Products :))) is JWorg

 

How many JW rank and files surfed on you-tube, in 2014 and after, to find out what was been actual in 2014, and be in time with activities of their religion? 

 

 

The December 9, 2017 post of which you pulled your own information from makes the claim that:

Srecko Sostar Quote - December 9th, 2017

Quote

JWorg attracted thousands of people and millions of pounds to Scotland on XX Commonwealth Games, Glasgow 2014

You believed this is 100% truth and was duped into this belief, thus claiming it to be true by both comments made by you, you make mention of it a year later, 3 days ago in fact to me, but when actual true is spoken and revealed the fact that you didn't pay attention to what the video had said, thus making you the type of person to believe a lie without even doing the research, mainly as to if said lie was sold to you because it looked that good, that is eating fruit from a tainted fig tree, my friend. And the result?

Srecko Sostar Quote - July 18th, 2018

Quote

thanks for info. For that reason i was deleted my post.

It was both posts (2 not 1) that was deleted and I do not suppose it would have been removed if I never went into full, typical Space Merchant strict detail with all of words boring teacher mode, on the matter. This shows that you are willing to even make acknowledgement of what is true and what is not true when corrected, and this time, it didn't take the rank and file of JW, as you made mention of, to point that out for you, granted all comments of true was wiped out by the person who posted the video and misguided people.

I called you out and we can see the mention of Glasgow is deleted here and it the December post in early 2017, the 9th, you also deleted at the same time, but it would seem you got rid of the other one before the recent one, hence the information I was able to pull, the proof is here:

So if you say JWs got money from a sporting event and think it is the true, why should I remain in silence about this claim you made by bringing up the truth to begin with? You cannot give say something is apple pie only for the person to bite into the pie and realize it is peach, they will call you out on the mix up of which you bring forth claim to.

You seriously think someone would sit back and accept this lie? Clearly things like this do not sit well with me of course, I will speak up. Not only you deleted the post here, but you went as far back to December 2017 to remove the thread itself, even thought I never made mention of it under after the fact; you made claim about the faith gaining thousands of dollars from sporting events, when that information is untrue, and even the video itself is further proof of both you and the poster of the video being false about the information when the Watchtower was only in Glasgow for a Convention (There is proof of this too), nearly 2 weeks AFTER to use the SSE Hydro, the same place the sporting events took place way before the gathering of the faith even took place. So of course, I will speak of the truth and nothing that, as well as rooting out the truth from conspiracy, untruths and misconceptions.

So it is not a matter of taking sides, for I can agree with a man who says God is One, but I cannot agree with a man who says Jesus is God, therefore, the unlearning of lies must take place. I can agree with a woman who speaks about a passage and make application of scripture, but I do not agree with her when she makes an application that does not connect with someone and or it is used to target someone or something. If I am not mistaken, you yourself took a side and in believing the information of Glasgow to be true, even making mention to money earn by the faith when said money never existed and or was made known, that information didn’t exist, the true to the lie you believed in prompted you to go back in time to erase any traces of it, but my friend, this information is immortalized (the thread cannot be seen by anyone because of your action, but the quote I saved from you and what Admin can see is enough proof to the untrue claims you made - then again, you fell for conspiracy from the get-go and changed your mind instantly over night when corrected), just as those who also called this out only to have their comments removed by the poster of that video, as well as removing traces of the actual bbc uk news lengthier version of the video. This also goes for your Registry links which turn out to only defeat the purpose of which you attempted to represent to claim. The truth itself has been revealed, and there is no question you made the application to be proven wrong on the Glasgow situation.

I also found the actual video of Jehovah’s Witnesses using SSE Hydro, nearly two weeks after the sporting event, the same venue used by the Commonwealth Games about weeks before (the date of which the convention was held, before was a wild shooting in the dark but the date I got correct) You tell me as to where the profit from sporting event is coming from, and or what you have said back in December" JWorg attracted thousands of people and millions of pounds to Scotland on XX Commonwealth Games, Glasgow 2014"

As for the original subject at hand, Witness brings up things in regards to Rick Fearon, to which I made the call out that Rick Fearon is considered both false and a fraud, not only by former JWS, but others, even atheist and for a list of reasons this can be said, even to the point I repost information from Rick Fearon Supporters themselves. Onward, Witness bring up information to make it seem the Watchtower is the one and true owner of the several companies and Trust funds, I did the research and found out that most if not all turned out to be conspiracy and or a hoax, even said by former members of the faith, moreover, found out and gave information, from the source itself, that the faith is not an owner, but a beneficiary, from an investors standpoint of said information I gave you the information also, even the investor website links and quote but you ignored it.

We can speak on their belief all day if you’d like, clearly there would have to be another topic for that or that of Bible Discussion, but to say of them that they own this or that and there is no proof, it should be expected someone to say something when they make the research, after all, that large quote came from a former JW, who knows everything about funds, yielding on his information what did you expect the outcome to be? According to a former JW who spent his time looking into this issue – He wants to settle this whole trust fund thing once and for all, and of which he successfully did with each point made. The same way a few people brought up the tax return vs. tax by means of charitable trust.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

My need is in that because i see you read a lot and think a lot. So, as you are man of a book and deep thinking it is quite normal how you might have conclusions and can describe WTJWorg in light of your understanding of what Bible say on religious institutions around the World. Question is not complicated and you are able, because of your great knowledge on issue, to give respond on such ask.

Granted that I spent most of my time reading and studying as a child rather than waste time in from of a TV and spend hours upon hours upon games like Super Mario Bros. and Final Fantasy. When it came to the Bible, it was in strict application to the point by the age of 5, reading the Bible for hours, meditation, research, application and examples, etc. The first Bible I was ever given was The American Standard Bible, in both English and French, and in those days it is very uncommon for a child who has not even hit the age of 6 yet, who is of color and an islander, to have such knowledge in reading, as well as biblical knowledge at that age. I was able to recite passages from memory and or have an outline in my mind of what verse and or passage is saying, eventually even learning both Greek and Hebrew, again due to what I had learned about the KJV, on a basic level, aside from English, Spanish, French, and Creole, later on, being a bit more intermediate, perhaps high when excelled in Greek and Hebrew, therefore, knowing a total of 6 languages. Another thing about me is at first I didn’t believe Jesus pre-existence until after I read the whole Bible for the first time, for originally I was a Unitarian that didn’t believe in pre-existence, but application of context of the Bible and learning the actual Christology changed that. And ever since then to now, I have read the bible from Genesis to Revelations several times now, for the Bible says to read the word day and night and to not cease in doing so, even if it is just a verse, I was always told, at least I take something of the word and mediate on it for that day, this goes for doing something for God also, for even a second we cannot get back so everyday something for God has to be done, whether it is a minor and or major thing, big or small, but what is done is for God on that day for a day we cannot take back once it is gone, an hour, a minute, second, even a millisecond, so I do take biblical things very seriously and base application in response of the scripture and historical fact in terms of Christianity and eventually took part in the CSE community and many branches to said community, to which I was a total newbie there until eventually I wised up to what I am now in a space that is trying to learn what the Church had taught as well as history among other things. Over my studies, I was also introduced to Judaism and Islam as well, despite my sole belief of originate is actual Christianity, oppose to the mainstream Christianity, which is largely followed by those in the United Sates. I myself have also confronted and befriended members of Judaism, Islam, and even Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some Trinity believers are friends of mine, even then I teach them of how the Trinity is not biblical. I even met those who have no idea what a Bible is and people who met such ones overseas, those of other kinds of authority. So I have quoted the portfolio.

As for my conclusions about the Jehovah’s Witnesses, as I stated before, I know of them because I did study about Restorationism, denominations who practice as such, as well as Non-Trinitarianism. The discussion of this thread is whether the Watchtower is actually of what Rick Fearon says they are, one of his primary  things his supporters bring up is that they deny Jesus, which is false. His audience believes that Jehovah’s Witnesses stash weapons under their churches and even their main facilities, weapons to be used when the end times conclude, but this information is unfounded for a number of reasons, JWs are not known to carry out Christian Terrorism that resembles the likes of Radicalized Islam (in comparison to the likes of Christian Militants, The Westboro Church, The Ku Klux Klan, The Crusaders, and actual religious Extremist, etc.) It is also spoken of that followers of Fearon will state that The Watchtower had sent boxes of poisons to each and every JW church so that the JWs of the church are to consume it in secret, to add more fuel to the fire, JW opponents believed this to be true and even made conspiracy and other forms of media about such, comparing this unfounded belief coming from Fearon supporters to be true who compare the actions that all JWs will be forced to a commit mass-suicide by means of poisoning equaling it to the Jim Jones situation of the 1970s whereas Jones subsequently committed a mass murder-suicide of 918 followers, 304 of whom were children, almost all by cyanide poisoning by means of Flavor Aid, this prompted the saying drinking the Kool-Aid. For someone to believe that, to make such a comparison and make it truth just shows that it is nonsense and total conspiracy. No one is going to believe JWs harbor weapons that their religious leaders teach them to kill those who do not believe since they are not part of the military and or take affiliation, perhaps members who join are either former military and or about to leave the service of the military. No one is going to believe JWs will drink poison on a day of great tribulation by means of the end times and or use against those who do not believe what they believe and or spreading interfaith beliefs. We can go as far back as to the pastor of Bible Students, no one is going to believe he is a Freemason and or included by them when no Masonry Registry even shows his information, tenet and or Lodge information as well as status, not even current Masons consider him to be one of them, and a source, 2 in fact, who had studied the matter for more than 60+ years also say the same thing. So that is why I draw conclusions to fact, only one side is stating such conspiracy without proof, the other side provides proof that counters conspiracy.

In a sense, for example,

Quote

it is like I can say and speak of you and say you were the one who murdered an unarmed teen of color, and get people to believe it because on that day you were present in the vicinity. I make the claim based off of what I gather, but there are others who will come in your defense to speak against me, to bring up actual information and fact in your defense vs. me and everyone who believes what I say and when in the face of judgment, you and your followers will do everything in your power to prove innocent and reveal actual truths as to where by true of which I follow and my followers follow is to put you in the electric chair and or observe you getting a lethal injection.

This is why I do the research and get my conclusions based on facts and nothing but the facts. This is the same with what Witness brought up in his list whereas most turns out to be conspiracy and or a hoax and reveal that the Riley Trust owner is not the Watchtower, Rand is not of the Watchtower either because the Watchtower does not harbor Navy based contracts, and all others listed turns out to be false.

That being said, no man with a straight face and not a drop of sweat on his brow, would make claim that the Watchtower owns a company and is in support of selling and buying by means of stocks and bonds of Women’s Lingerie, as JW opponents did make the claim among the list that the Watchtower is involved with stocks and bonds of Victoria’s Secret as with others, proven to be unfounded. That claim, in of itself, is as absurd as saying pigs can fly, claiming such as truth. Therefore, people will say things, and expect a response. It is one thing to speak on how they do things, but to bring up conspiracy that holds no truth to it, a call out to those who make false claim will be met with a response.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I can not answer on all your question because i might do not know answer, (or my answer can be wrong, but what? Next day my answer can be right, heheehe) in this moment.

I only asked you a few questions, a primary one is to make proof of indication, of which you made no acknowledgment of. You can address it here now, but it is unlikely you can make the attempt and simply ignore it another time.

Aside from the biblical indication that money is a product of Satan

Quote
  • [Question 1] What and where is the indication as to point that anything to do with the use of currency, be it money in form of gold/silver, etc., shekels and or other various form of coin, in addition the the trading system of which is both a practice and a predecessor of money seen as a product of Satan? Granted that both good people and bad people, both of which mentioned in the Bible to have use such a design?

 

  • [Question 2] You make claim that money is a product of Satan, but never state anything, inasmuch of what Peter used to deal with Temple Tax for both him and Jesus, who is exempt for the only reason of being part of the Father's House to which you are in total acceptance of the verse in question, it is the not the fact that a man of God's House is obligated, it is more of much of the lesson learned from the passage itself. Moreover, not only you contradict yourself on what you consider as your own personal view vs. an acceptance of a single passage, why show clear oblivious attitude to other people who, in scripture, also used coin(s) to do things that are and or not in any connection with Lawless Acts/Unrighteous Riches? Provided that Satan was not behind the actions of the Widow, or of Abraham, or of anyone else, but it is clear he was behind Judas, for both the good people who follow God and those who turn away from God both use money and or a form of the bartering system, granted both being different come each other originates from the same degree of trade and commerce in regards to goods and resources.

 

  • [Question 3] Was Satan, according to you, was behind every man, woman and child when they use both currency and the system of trade to earn a living, to survive, provide, etc? Examples would be like that of Jesus' human Father, who was a carpenter, a trade he was good at, a trade he uses to provide for him and his family, for Jesus was not the only child of the household.

 

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But, you see irony? You criticize me how i not answer your question and in same time  you refuse to explain your stand about WT, by saying,  "i am neutral... there is no need to ask me again". :)) Do you support your view of Bible truth or you are supporter of WT? What else, except neutrality keep you from commenting this? Judgmental day? If so, then will be better for all of us to spend life in silence.  

How is this irony if I made an answer to such? If someone says the Watchtower has guns and poisons, of course I know it is untrue so I will speak. If someone says the Watchtower owns stocks and bonds, and it is found out to be untrue, I will speak. I do the same in defense of those who are blamed for murders in the Middle East and elsewhere when the reality is they are not all enemies, Sunnis, Shias are not all terrorist as the media makes them out to believe, fear mongering leaving to an up spike in Knife killings in the EU, specifically the UK. For instance, I made mention before that it was not terrorist that put the bodies of Christians at the bottom of a Well, it was US supporting allies that did it, and the US is shifting blame on to someone else getting people to believe it, thus removing any form of prove outside of mainstream media. When it comes to the Bible, if someone says another man and or group does not follow the Christ or make the attempt, and knowing the Christology and History, I will speak of the group and correct the misconceptions and untruths said, at sometimes I tend to be briefly strict, that is how we islanders role anyways. In this sense, your claim on Glasgow, of which you think you wiped out in order to cover yourself – you are the first here to delete something of which you said not of this year, but of last year when a correction has been coined.

I am a supporter of the Bible and if a man says Jesus is God, he will be dealt with true and fact, not believing in the Trinity is not an automatic support of the Watchtower, it does not automatically make one denying Christ (the expression “You Deny the Christ if you don’t believe he is God”, as mainstream ones say) because in the early days of the 1st Church, they never believed Jesus to be God, but the Son of God, the Watchtower itself clearly does not support the Trinity either, and the only reason they are structured the way they are because they are not mainstream Christians, but rather, Restorationist Christians and how the church was structured in those days they make an attempt to apply such, the same can be said with others, if not all Non-Trinitarians who make the application of what the Church had done in both teachings and the actions of which Jesus entrusted, they even admit to such, albeit some do it better than others, while others tend to have the mainstream Christendom get the best of them. The same can be said about the whole Jesus being Michael, you believed for at least I assume, in the other thread, that this was of Watchtower origin and or allude to such, but it was also mentioned by me and a few others, the belief that Jesus being Michael predates the JWs by centuries, fragments in the 2nd century and between the 6th-9th century, only began and looked around centuries later and onward to present day. So it is not a matter of who supports who, it is a matter of who is making the application of what is true vs. what is not true.

I am neutral because as a God fearing man, I do not want to falsely accuse and be judged in front of the Great White Throne, if you do not know what the Great White Throne is, than clearly you haven’t read into what Judgment involves, hence why I am in all seriousness of what is said in Revelations 20. I do speak up when someone speaks of ill-information of something, someone and or of a group and I do speak up when one speaks of uninspired things and or of the accursed, but to any man who makes application of the early church, I tend to be careful with because the slightest of error can land you in the face of judgment.

No, it is not about living a life of silence, it is about speaking up of untruths. Clearly you made the claim that the Glasgow thing was a profit for the Watchtower, it was called out to be a lie of which you believed, which you tried to paint as truth and when such call out was made, you deleted both the July 2018 post as well as the December 2017 post at the same time on the same day, I guarantee if nothing was said, you would have kept it up and stuck with it. The same can be said of trying to make some kind of proof of a Registry based in Australia that covers institutions involved in businesses, religion, education and or other in solely Australia, what you avoided in those links of which you posted was not just it being a Registry of information, but the very fact that it points to the group of some Charitable and Non-profit status. I even made a remark to this, you evaded it. The same claim can be made by those who attempt to paint someone as those being of Babylon, when in the end, it is unfounded, for the faith in question is a target of Babylon, for Babylon will root out those who try and or make an attempt to follow the Bible in the end times and tribulations and eventually the nation will turn on Babylon and the hunt for those who make an attempt to follow the Bible will take place. Last I checked, JWs were not involved with Kairos, LT, Peak and all connecting branches to the E.I.I. Granted that I am aware and observant of what is happening in Russia and other areas, mainly the EU, and take information from a good source there, it is clear with said information in mind from in-depth research of who is really of Babylon and who isn’t, moreover, who is doing the bidding of the Spiritual Mother who is on a conquest for both Peace and Conquest to defile God’s teachings and imprint their own form of religion and faith on to those of the world.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Another think what i would like to say you is this. My perception after our conversations is that you want from other people to prove all what they have said, have to say (their thoughts, beliefs, conclusions, understanding, emotions if you want, etc), with Bible verses.

I simply asked you to make proof of a couple of things. You were wise into to deleting what you claim as proof. Never have I challenged one’s emotions, in fact, the only time my thoughts were in implication was when I eased someone here on the matter and the situation of things regarding what we see in the world. I can get strict at times, however the end result is the same.

I speak against biblical heresies as well as misapplication of verses, yes, but as you can see I have a corral with those who think Jesus to be God and not the Son, or those who believe in a Triune God, which was the case with Jesus Defender the Deserter for clearly he was not just blind, he shed greater ignorance to that surpasses his own ego. The only reason my responses tend to be long was the result of the Trinitarian who now resides solely in Bible Discussion, Cos, who likes to take jabs at beliefs vs. making the Trinity seem superior, he only stop when his own lie came back to bite him in the end, but even still he makes passive remarks in his belief regarding the holy spirit. Other than that, I am aware of situations and the unlike some who are quick to yield upon their own understandings of what others profess, I do the research of historical evidence and or by means of the Bible, when it comes to other forms of media, I rely on very credible sources of where I get information from, one of them being very accurate in the current things taking place around the world.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

All must be confirmed with some Bible verses, according to your expectation (at least in my case with "devil and money", hehheehe) . That looks to me how you believe, my perception of you, how things that are not written, mentioned in Bible and Bible only, in fact not existing in humans World, on Earth. Things are; material or spiritual or mental or intellectual, someones claims, perceptions, beliefs, teachings, thoughts on something. Famous example of that is in our conversation on my belief how "money is devil product".

And yet for the Glasgow claim of yours and try to point out as actucal truth, not a single verse was used when a correction had been made. What of it then?

So if money is a product of Satan, could you please explain why money was used by God’s followers throughout biblical and historical history? We can exclude Judas because your observation consist solely on any man using money is using a product of Satan, of which an unfounded bible indication, that you made a remark about, has yet to be seen.

Another factor is: Why are you using the internet to use this forum if it takes money to even allow you to be here in the first place? After all, money was involved in the internet being a thing in the first place as well as keeping it running, $100-$200+ billion dollars a year, minus the inclusion of ISP of which any of them equals to that of your provider who also bears responsibility in revenue going back and forth, which you and I both know the both of us are using – therefore, it defeats the purpose to claim, of which you made, mainly if we are talking in regards to money itself.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And because you can not find Bible verse where is written, "Money is from satan", then you strongly claim how this conclusion of mine is wrong, false teaching, not reality, not supported with this or that, by his or him.

You said it yourself, it is based on your conclusion of what is being addressed, therefore I merely told you that you are incorrect, nowhere did I make mention of false teachings - anywhere. I also pointed out that the Bible makes no indication that money itself is a product of Satan, for if it was a product of Satan than all who used money is in an endless loop of hypocrisy as well as use of the bartering system, ruled out to be of the Devil as you allude to in terms of currency usage and or forms of trade.

I told you specifically money is used by the good and the bad. The good use money to provide and survive. The bad use money for lawless acts and will commit lawless acts to gain and or receive more money. Such ones become lovers of money, on the other side of the spectrum, God makes approval of those who use money for is of good things, even if it means in support of him, as in ministry, feeding the poor, etc.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you want be "fanatical" and claim how all things (material or immaterial) if Bible not mentioned them, not existing and they are not true?  Because with your insisting on Bible verse for proving this or that (what other people say), you have in fact, such irrational need.

Greetings.

I am not being fanatical just for making call outs and saying what is indeed true, simply stating the truth and the facts to each point, even bring forth into what is actually said over that of conspiracy and I am not one to be in favor of conspiracy, as you may already know from our past discussions, mainly on the subject of Religious Rights. I stated time and time again and even before that there are those who do things with bad intent, be it to people in order to have some sort of gain, in this case either material and or money. These type of people make money their God, thus the verse I mention about Two Masters.

The Bible makes an indication of things that are used and how people tend to use them, that is why I pointed out how you are incorrect to say that money is a product of Satan, if that were the case, it would make us all hypocrites, moreover, you put yourself in a hypocritical light for 2 points:

Quote

[Point A] You say money is a product of Satan and make claim to the bible’s indication of this fact of you yourself also stating this is of your own thinking. But somehow you ignore the fact that money is the only reason that is

  • [1] Keeping you alive by means of food and water
  • [2] Keeping you from being in your birthday suit (I can see in your avatar you are well dressed)
  • [3] Allows you to have a roof over your head and clearly covers the rent/mortgage
  • [4] Allows you to use a device of some sort to even be on this forum
  • [5] money is being used to even allow  your device to connect to the internet to use this forum and respond to me (Birds cannot provide internet, friend).
  • [6] If having dependents, assuming, you use money to care for them, eat them, cloth them, etc.
  • [7] Money is used to over expense, such as medical, and or other, in the worse cases should anything happen to you or someone who is of blood relative and or relations, money will be involved.

The list goes on… And

 

[Point B] You agree with what a verses says, which points how to Jesus, who is clearly exempt from Temple Tax because he is part of his Father’s House, the religious leaders view of Jesus, and only see him as Peter’s teacher. We see how the situation was handled with Temple Tax payment, with coin, money. What you didn’t see was the lesson learned from this passage and the fact that the people at the time had the Law of the Jews and clearly the only person who is of the Father’s House, hence being sent (Shaliah) is Jesus. We later find out of what Jesus spoke of in regards to authority and taxes in the Mark verse, coupled with cross-references. Since you agree to this, but turn around and say money is of Satan, then clearly the fish should have stayed in the Water and not get hooked, and the position Peter and Jesus were in would be far different because of the religious leaders themselves. Which leads to you clearly are using money be it knowingly and or unknowingly, so why make the contradiction in what you think in the right and deem other things in the wrong?

So to say you agree with one passage about money use and to disagree with several if not others, that shows a contradiction right there.

Clearly, you are not using money for lawless acts and or misdeeds that result in unrighteous riches and or wealth, something of which I know the both of us can agree on since you coined the term to begin with prior to the Glasgow comment. However, clearly you are confused on the matter, but you are a good person and wise with spending and usage of money, that same money is the very reason you are able to login today and make a comment, let alone that same money you pay for goes to your ISP, to its workers and the other form of revenue goes to other sources, with the primary source keeping the Internet afloat (well until anti net-neutrality changes are made of course in the US) therefore to say money is a product of Satan and to assume all men who have money by means of payment, donation, and or other means as having Satan behind them, is ridiculous, I do not see how a Father buying a Spider-Man action figure for his Son and on the same day, buy a chocolate sundae with sprinkles on top for his Daughter, and finally paying for medication to help his wife cope with injury, all having to do with Satanic intent and or backing. Nor was it the case with Peter and Jesus, taking a coin from a fish, to be a product of Satan when used to over taxes of the temple, according to the Law.

What is very true is that people CAN be lovers of money (in the father example another father can us the money to buy a large amount of alcohol and drink drunken-like effects kicks in), hence Judas Iscariot or the merchants of the temple, which in the merchants case they were not suppose to make the house of God into a place of commerce, and it is the only time in the Bible Jesus was actually angry.

So therefore, this is why I consider this personal claim of yours of be as unfounded, which in turn, be incorrect, just as the Glasgow remark and what I have expressed to be the truth of the matter, men can be lovers of money, yes, but men can also use money wisely, in a sense for good, and at times in a way God approves.

Just remember that you said it yourself, you pretty much agree with Matthew 17:27.

Other than that, what I addressed about money on page 2 I will leave it here because just mentioning it is not enough for you it seems.

 

You are most definitely, undeniably, welcome.

    Hello guest!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

to escape your objection how i don't answer on your question. Yes i did read OT. :))

But then the remarks and responses that contradict the the claims to which this was brought up to being with. Read up on Original Sin (The Fall of Man), Genesis 3:1-6 (outlined 1 to 13)

Since it is evident you are quite the fan of Biblehub, I did you the favor of zeroing in on the passage of Original Sin: http://biblehub.com/esv/genesis/3.htm

By default it is ESV, but you can use whatever translation that floats your boat on the big blue sea.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You have explained before how all bad in the human today is because we are imperfect. And that we are imperfect because of Sin (Adam and Eve) If we sinning because we are IMPERFECT, then Adam and Eve have made sin because they are PERFECT? Mr devil made also sin not as imperfect but as perfect son of God.

And still you want from  me, the imperfect man, to prove you all with a Bible? :))))     

You cannot put the blame on imperfection of what you have said before. I simply told you that imperfection was not because of money, of which you have stated, imperfection was the result of what took place at the Garden of Eden, the Original Sin, Ancestral Sin, hence the Fall of Man. It was not money that caused the imperfection, it was the sin committed when Satan influenced a woman who had free will, which in turn got the man involved, for this man loved the woman dearly.

Basic prospective (being brief as possible here): God made Adam, then Eve and God is most certainly happy. Adam and Eve live in Garden of Eden and they loved each other a lot. Came along Satan posing as a snake influence Eve to eat from Tree, Eve got fruit from Tree had Adam Eve. God showed up and Adam was nervous tried to cover himself up and in fear because he was said he was, after all in his birthday suit, naked, God uttered, who told you that were naked and from there he found how they ate from the tree and questioned Adam, who started to throw blame on Eve and they both got lectured and or talked to, the snake gets the short end of the stick because it got cursed because of Satan using the animal for his own design. From there God not only blocked the Tree of Life, but he kicked them out of Eden and said they are to cultivate the earth and they will grow old and die, from the earth they came, to the earth they return to, thus being able to experience death and or pain is in subjection with being imperfect. And from there we have God speaking of one to come that will pretty much put his heel on the head of the snake and years upon years upon years later, the one who comes in the name of God the Father, is born to Virgin Mary an this one is the Horn of Salvation, and we know how the passages goes from there.

Adam and Eve didn't make since, they were originally sinless, perfect they were not subjected to aging and or dying. It was only have disobeying and eating from the Tree of Knowledge, because God did say what would take place should they eat from it, for he could have wiped out Adam and Eve, but he did not, therefore he set in motion for the coming of the Prophet who will speak his Word, the one who is the Seed, this man, who became flesh, Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ is not imperfect, he is sinless and pure, you have any idea what that relates to? Jesus was conceived by means of the Holy Spirit, read the four gospel accounts, Luke 1 for instance.

Well granted you said that the bible makes indication that money is a product of Satan when it is not, and later on you say something along the lines that money is the reason of man's sin, when it is imperfection in conjunction with Free Will. Give or take.

Yes we are imperfect, but you can't blame imperfection on what you have addressed, that is like someone blaming and or complain about lag when it is not lag at all, just that the person is wildly in error and or inexperienced because he does not want to be painted as a loser.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You explain already how satan making influence on imperfect, sinful human. What else need explanation. Who influenced Widow, how should i know, because no bible verse, as to my knowledge, giving direct answer on this question. I am sure that you would know Bible verse if such exist.

But then you make the acknowledgment that Satan the Devil is behind the money. Surely the Widow was not of Satan, nor was Peter since they had money. Perhaps.... The fish? Now that be a tricky one, all jokes aside, good and bad people use money, simple as that.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Jesus made commentary on Widow act of putting all money she have. He not made any comment on why she put all her money. Jesus only established few facts; - that she is very poor and how other people who donate were very rich, and by his opinion she gave more then rich people because she gave all she had, and as result she had done, she had no money for food or drink.

Jesus was a born Jew, he knows why money is donated out of Free Will offering to the Temple of Jerusalem, he praised the Widow, I even made comment to that when I explained the verses, of which you yourself stated has nothing to do with Jesus or his Disciples before and the fact you do not see what is being expressed in the verse, and suddenly The Widow's Mite is known? But still you fail to see the lesson and or make application if it.

What you have put in bold pretty much proved my point as to what I had said before, I also mention how this is a foreshadowing. Thank you for actually agreeing with what I stated when before you were seen to be confused and unaware of what why I mentioned those verses.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Bible text said nothing that Jesus recommended such acting to his disciples and how all who follow Jesus teachings today must doing the same - to give last penny to Church.  - my answer :)) ------ or maybe i do not see  full context :))))

And yet the verse you agree with and what was presented in detail says otherwise. Clearly there is a reason as to why The Temple of Jerusalem exists today, what else you think kept it from becoming ruins?

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

 

Video of the Old City Today:

 

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.

Alas poor Srecko Sostar, this was already mention, and your other response can be seen when this was brought up:

Quote

 

You stated the followingI do not see here that Jesus support economic and money system of Jew, Greek or Roman people. He was not willing to support that.

You said this because of thisFACT: Jesus taught that a legitimate use of money is to support the Lord's work (The Great Commission) through the religious institutions the Lord established, the early Church/Christians (Matthew 23:23; Mark 12:41-44; Luke 8:1-3).

The responseThat is because you truly do not understand what is being said, I chose this fact specifically which includes those verses.Context is key, understanding of passages is crucial.

 

Mark 12:41-44 – In this passage, Jesus is located, specifically, at the Temple of Jerusalem, the same Temple as to where he was speaking with and teaching the people. But the focus will be on this passage (which is also equal to the Luke’s witnesses as seen in the Gospel of Luke 21:1-4), the passages are identified as The Widow’s Mite (The Widow's Offering).

Jesus himself goes to where they make offerings, donations of money to the Temple (Temple of Jerusalem) as to what he sat next down to was the Treasury Chest/Boxes (also known as Treasury Chambers), and there we see a widow making an offering to which Jesus gave her praise because she has donated as seen in verse 42, that what the widow has donated is far larger than the donations made by the rich and we can see the continuation of Jesus’ response in verses 43 and 44. The Widow gives two lepta, copper coins, the smallest amount at that time. Jesus contrasts her offering as the greater sacrifice because it is all she had, as opposed to the rich persons who only gave what was convenient. Her total sacrifice foreshadows Jesus' total sacrifice of his life via crucifixion. We also find out that Jesus even makes a response to those who speak of how expensive the Temple looks, granted of what was integrated within the vast temple itself , he also makes mention that a day will come where the temple itself, if reading the passage in the gospel of Luke (referencing Luke 19:44). Those who spoke of how expensive the temple was then questioned him, and here we see Jesus speak of what is to happen, what is to come.

I am sure you are aware of what the First Temple, the Second Temple and the Third Temple is, as well as Jesus equaling such to the of another Temple – His body, The Body of Christ.

The Temple of Jerusalem had Treasury Chests. In the ancient history of the Jews, it is said say that these chests and boxes, or receptacles (Treasury Chambers), were in the shape of and/or like horns or trumpets with small openings at the top of it. People donated various donations in them, pieces of coin, copper, etc.. The total amount of Treasury boxes found in such Temples amount to 13 around the walls of the court itself. Among the 13, it’s believed that the temple contained a primary treasury chest/box where the money donations from all other the treasury chests was brought, being placed in the primary one. Granted on how big the Temple of Jerusalem was, it is no surprise that they would have this many. It is very obvious as to what they use the money for, to care for the temple itself, its people, feeding the poor and put into work of the gospel is being spread on to the people, for those who teach travel and do not travel empty handed. It should also occur to us that Jesus never hinted at His needs. Money that was given to Jesus and His disciples was held for the purposes already made known in the last sentence.

 

 

 

You tell me, you didn't understand what was said, and now you are showing a bit of understanding of what I have been talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



  • The most creative and intelligent people on planet Earth hang out on this forum. Be ready to have your points of view challenged and refined.

    We also want others to share your posts to ALL the social media outlets not just our own.

    You need to be registered and logged in to get full access and to add content yourself. 

     

    Welcome To Our Community

  • Chatbox

    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • I disagree. Jesus "framework" is/are interpreted many times by many people or organizations as how they see how would Jesus do this or that. So when you put quote that sound so final and as definitive diagnosis; " the Watchtower has the same framework as Jesus did", i must be careful, alert :)))) Not forget how same WT using phrases (when they explaining GB doctrines) as "Jesus must be thinking this or that, he obviously mean this or that. So, please do not call for Jesus authority when promote own or GB ideas :))  
    • Then you will notice, the Watchtower has the same framework as Jesus did, to separate church from state. So, it is not what the GB is saying, it is what scripture is saying. The majority of former witnesses fail to make that distinction.  As for the trolling, from everyone here, that’s to be expected. There’s only one cure. The moral fiber of some is zero.
    • My opinion is not of some importance now. It is more important how WT define it and how some of people who participate in this forum as WT defender, are not  in harmony /unity, obeying) what GB told them, instructing and teaching. Let see what i found in JW publications. Politicians, activists, and reformers have long struggled to find solutions to divisive issues. Their efforts may be sincere and well-motivated. Yet, Christians recognize that only God’s Kingdom can solve mankind’s problems and guarantee true justice. We must leave the matter in Jehovah’s hands. After all, if each Christian advocated the solution he thought best, would not our congregations soon become divided? -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "From Political Activist to Neutral Christian"                                                                                                                                                                                            THE year was 1953. The place—Liberec, Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic). I was then a 19-year-old activist who sought political change. We activists propagated our views by distributing leaflets that were critical of the Communist Party, then in power. -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Similarly, true Christians today do not engage in civil disobedience. They await the day and hour when qualified intervention by God will come. Only he has the wisdom and the power to bring lasting solutions to mankind. Through their preaching work, Jehovah’s Witnesses reassure those who are suffering from injustices that such relief is soon to come. -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
    • Where can I find comments for the watchtower images?  
    • rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... rubadubdubdub ...... .... stupid chain saw .....
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      52,760
    • Total Posts
      90,945
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      14,899
    • Most Online
      1,592

    Newest Member
    Wanda Crawford
    Joined
×

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation